Guild Wars 2

Being someone who hasn’t raided previously in GW2, I’d like to get into it. But honestly the vibe I have gotten across the board has been that its pretty much out of the question unless you are lucky enough to find a “training” group. I looked in LFG and it was pretty much only wanting exp players.

Am I missing that much if I don’t get to experience raiding?

LFG is so dead. It’ll get a temporary Boost with the expansion and then go Goodbye Quaggan again.

Does that mean there are no new raids coming with PoF in favor of open world content?

I think raids are fine at the moment. They aren’t for everyone for sure. That’s not their design. They are to give the most experienced players something to strive for. If you really want to raid, look up the fights on youtube and ask around for a raiding guild to take you in. They will expect you to have the best gear for a class/build that they need. So you have to play a very specific way and be open to taking time equipping your character with the very best. Again, not for everyone. I don’t even do it, but i’m glad it’s there for those who need that experience as it retains quality hardcore players.

If I had to guess, POF will come with raids, but that’s just a guess.

No raids have been announced yet, but I kind of doubt that there won’t be more at some point, perhaps even within this year. I do think that they need to work to make the existing raids more accessible though, with easy mode versions where anyone can jump in and learn the mechanics without wading through hours of pointless failure first.

saeleth.3915:

Does that mean there are no new raids coming with PoF in favor of open world content?

On the contrary: raids are being released independently of Living Story and Expansions.

Mortifera.6138:

LFG is so dead. It’ll get a temporary Boost with the expansion and then go Goodbye Quaggan again.

If thats for na lfg then maybe but inmeu i normaly see at least a couple of training groups and a bunch of normal ones.

Op speaking about bad vibes w8 until you see the fractal pugs, the wvw squads, pvp ranked and tarrir meta maps.

All contents need to have a reason.

Anet has repeatedly mention they will avoid the gear grind aspect of mmorpg. That literally eliminate a lot of reasons that raid and dungeons usually are used for.

saeleth.3915:

Being someone who hasn’t raided previously in GW2, I’d like to get into it. But honestly the vibe I have gotten across the board has been that its pretty much out of the question unless you are lucky enough to find a “training” group. I looked in LFG and it was pretty much only wanting exp players.

Yep. Good thing Anet decided to gate finishing the masteries behind Raiding, huh? No non-core XP for me for the rest of the game unless they don’t do the same stupid thing with PoF. But of course if they aren’t going to gate Masteries / XP behind raiding in PoF, why did they do it in HoT?

Hard to say why Anet does things.

Because it is!

Raids are unfriendly by definition and design.

saeleth.3915:

Being someone who hasn’t raided previously in GW2, I’d like to get into it. But honestly the vibe I have gotten across the board has been that its pretty much out of the question unless you are lucky enough to find a “training” group. I looked in LFG and it was pretty much only wanting exp players.

Am I missing that much if I don’t get to experience raiding?

My main gripe is about raids is the same as dungeons and fractals. To many high strung types are drawn to them. ANet seems to go out of their way to lock content and rewards behind forced multi-player instances because they assume everyone wants or should to be social. PvE is about as social as many people want to be. Going into pressure cooker instances is very stressful for some people like myself. Plus there is finding people to join a group when your ready to play.

It’s easy for some people to say that you don’t have to do it but if you want specific achievements, unlocks or rewards it’s your only choice.

I unfortunately have had to do Ascalonian Catacombs so I can get Ascalonian Tears to make the Nightfury Skin. My experiences haven’t been the best.

I really wish ANet would give us a version of heroes (controlled NPCs) like GW1 that we can use for dungeons and raids. You could fill the player slots with real players or heroes. If we could use our own characters for the hero slots we could equip and build them to our needs.

saeleth.3915:

Does that mean there are no new raids coming with PoF in favor of open world content?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/new-expansion-has-no-raid/first#post6667709

There will be more raids coming. It makes sense not to release raids together with the expansion, give some time to players to get the new elite specs, learn how the new abilities work and so on.

Random groups will always be hit or miss with instanced in instanced content because players, understandably, want experienced people to join them. Outside training guilds, raids are more about socializing and going inside with friends. So either join a training guild or find a group of friends to enter together.

JTGuevara.9018:

Because it is!

Raids are unfriendly by definition and design.

I dont see anything in their definition or their design that suggests that.

saeleth.3915:

Being someone who hasn’t raided previously in GW2, I’d like to get into it. But honestly the vibe I have gotten across the board has been that its pretty much out of the question unless you are lucky enough to find a “training” group. I looked in LFG and it was pretty much only wanting exp players.

Am I missing that much if I don’t get to experience raiding?

U should apply to a raiding guild that takes in new folk. Raids require much coordination/performance which the majority of the gw2 playerbase do not have, either cuz lack of skill/will or not enough practice. I can tell as i pugged the first raid wing back im the day and cleared it eventually. I havent tried the new wings so thats why i dont expect to get my free ride anywhere unless i earn my spot in a guild, bcuz ur also responsible for other ppl time, and i respect that. Raids are the more challanging content.

if ppl stop getting on their elitist high horse and try to at least let ppl play raids might be more fun to play, it’s one thing to have it challenging, it’s another to make it unpleasant.

when i look at the LFG pannel all i see is alien scrabble, i never raided because i can never understand them.

Raids being elitist is kind of the point and why I think they are a mismatch for GW’s casual design style. I hope they’ll ditch them, and they’ll ad some alternative way to get legendary armor.

Glad no mention (that I have seen) of raids for the new expansion so far.

They don’t feel unfriendly they are. Everytime I join a raid it’s rude people demanding I prove that I’m a good player. As an mmo vet who has done some of the hardest raiding content in wow ever created (was in the 8th highest rated raiding guild in wow, between burning crusade and wrath of the lich king) as well as played final fantasy 11 between 2001-2004, all I can say is that gw2 raiding is a joke. But how do I prove that to anyone without tremendous effort or having to deal with rude skeptics? So far I give up because it’s too tiring convincing others.

People expect me to do new ways of raiding by doing a “training raid” where you learn the mechanics and don’t kill the boss. All I can say is that, that isn’t how people used to raid and it feels like a colossal waste of time organized by people who have corporate mentalities. Trust me I can learn the mechanics, prob get top dps, and outperform experienced players by simply watching the YouTube video of it. But again how do I prove this to anyone without egregious effort?

You can’t and most seem to not be interested unless you have a stack of legendary insights to link ( which might I add can be acquired easily by paying for raids or simply manipulating the chat code link, so I’m not sure why people ask for this.

It’s too bad because I can’t find groups without a ton of effort and good groups are also missing out on good players. Since the player base is casual anyways, I suggest they lower difficulty of the raids to make them more accessible or add an auto join feature or both. ( this is coming from gwamm gw1 player and 2X spvp legend in gw2 as well, and spvp is much harder then any raid boss, yet more accessible.)

Also I list all my prior accomplishments to show that none of them help to find a raid group, which further illustrates my point and the ludicrousness of players exclusionary behavior in terms of raiding.

The problem is, raids are unfriendly by design. You have to be reasonably skilled to complete a raid, so a team forming a raid MUST either A: exclude people who are not already good at the raid, or B: commit several hours of their lives to an activity that could be completed in twenty minutes, with no guarantee of success even after that. I can’t at all blame people for choosing A under the current design.

That’s why the design needs to change, there need to be ways for a true pick-up group to go in, first attempt, and within a half hour or so clear the raid encounter. Once everyone has the gist of what’s going on they should be able to clear it, even if a few of the are bad at the game. I understand that this is not the raiding experience that some people want, but it’s the raiding experience that the game needs, at least as a companion to the existing option.

I think it’s fair to say the raids are fine. It’s some of the best content in gw2. It’s the people that are terrible.

No one has any tolerance for learning. They want to clear it as fast as possible with as little talking as possible. They want minimum human interaction and maximum loot. Noobs get in the way of that.

The first time I joined a regular non-training pug raid, no one spoke. They had no voice com either. As soon as someone made a mistake, the leader called him the N word and asked him why was he trying to ruin HIS raid…

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Everytime I join a raid it’s rude people demanding I prove that I’m a good player.

As a raid veteran you should know that raiding with people you know is the best way to raid, and the only way to avoid random groups. You were in a pro raid guild in wow as you say, try joining one, or making one in gw2 as well.

The main problem with raids in gw2 is that you can do them with random groups. And how can you blame them? In a random group you want to kill the boss and get the loot, random groups are mostly there to farm. You learn and progress in raids with your friends as someone in a top raiding guild in other mmorpgs should very well know.

No one has any tolerance for learning. They want to clear it as fast as possible with as little talking as possible. They want minimum human interaction and maximum loot. Noobs get in the way of that.

That’s a perfectly reasonable desire to have though, for both the experts AND the newbs. That is the sort of game that GW2 is, outside of raiding. The problem is that the sort of culture that raids inspire by their design is 100% antithetical to the culture that GW2 thrives on.

Join a raiding guilds.

Raid is a form of commitment. Even for non-set groups, for every raid session, you are committing yourself to 2-3 hours with 9 other people.

Problem with LFG is there is no expectation for PUGs from LFG. Very often PUGs would leave in the middle of fight or quit because the group doesn’t meet their expectation.

Xenon.4537:

I think it’s fair to say the raids are fine. It’s some of the best content in gw2. It’s the people that are terrible.

The last part is probably true, but it goes both ways. Both the wannabe-pros, which are rather frequent, and all the clowns, who want raid shinies without putting in any effort, are a disgrace.

Personally I think that Anet should provide 2 tier raiding. normal mode that is easier to get in and learn the mechanics, but without the masses of loot. And then Raid mode, as it is, for the experienced L33Tists.

At the moment I just see it as me missing out on large amounts of content. This feature is pretty much what they have for Fractals, so why not Raids?

Marshall Sed.8643:

Personally I think that Anet should provide 2 tier raiding. normal mode that is easier to get in and learn the mechanics

The problem is a lower tier mode wouldn’t help people like the OP find a group for the actual raid. It would help with more people to check the raids but not with access to the actual raids. Unless for some reason you think those groups on LFG won’t continue to ask for LI or kill proof or titles/whatever if you add an easier difficulty, which won’t happen.

Xenon.4537:

No one has any tolerance for learning. They want to clear it as fast as possible with as little talking as possible. They want minimum human interaction and maximum loot. Noobs get in the way of that.

speak for yourself, i love to learn but never get the chance to.
i ether get alien talk about VoS or whatever crap that means or a forced play about how i need to play their way, i killed enemies made for groups on my own because i know how to use my profession properly.

zealex.9410:

JTGuevara.9018:

Because it is!

Raids are unfriendly by definition and design.

I dont see anything in their definition or their design that suggests that.

How about timers? I don’t know how it’s now or if that’s true for every boss, since I don’t raid, but as far as I know they have timers. So, I’m not sure why timer is indeed (“extra challenge” probably), but that means people will be especially strict on gear, your rotation and build. If you don’t have all the specifics, you get kicked.
I think bosses can be designed to be challenging without putting a timer on them.

The problem is a lower tier mode wouldn’t help people like the OP find a group for the actual raid. It would help with more people to check the raids but not with access to the actual raids.

It would provide an alternative though. Players who only want to play the easy mode could just play the easy mode, and player that want the hard mode could play the easy mode until they get good at it, and then shift to the harder mode with a reasonable level of experience under their belt.

maddoctor.2738:

Marshall Sed.8643:

Personally I think that Anet should provide 2 tier raiding. normal mode that is easier to get in and learn the mechanics

The problem is a lower tier mode wouldn’t help people like the OP find a group for the actual raid. It would help with more people to check the raids but not with access to the actual raids. Unless for some reason you think those groups on LFG won’t continue to ask for LI or kill proof or titles/whatever if you add an easier difficulty, which won’t happen.

But a group that learns the machanics together could move forward into the true Raids together. Thereby gaining the experience to join the better groups.

WoodenPotatoes mentioned how lore rich the Raids were so it’s sad that It’s gated behind impossible, for me, content. GW1s endgame content was doable with non-optimised groups, unless it was speed running, so GW2 should, IMO, provide the same.

FWIW, I’m in the kitten age group and been in the GW franchise for 12 years so it’s not like I’m not experienced. ????

saeleth.3915:

Am I missing that much if I don’t get to experience raiding?

If you’re into instanced group PVE, then yes you’d be missing out on a lot.

Unless you’re naturally a very intuitive and highly skilled player raiding will require a lot of time and commitment but it can be a very rewarding feeling when you finally clear your first boss after hours of wiping.

Just prepare yourself properly. Learn as much as you can before even attempting to train, and brace yourself for some inevitable disappointment. It’s definitely going to be rough at times. If you can manage T4 fractals comfortably though, then you should be able to clear most of the raid encounters.

And of course, if possible, find yourself a training guild that’s a good fit for you.

Ohoni.6057:

The problem is a lower tier mode wouldn’t help people like the OP find a group for the actual raid. It would help with more people to check the raids but not with access to the actual raids.

It would provide an alternative though. Players who only want to play the easy mode could just play the easy mode, and player that want the hard mode could play the easy mode until they get good at it, and then shift to the harder mode with a reasonable level of experience under their belt.

And once they get to that reasonable level of experience they’ll be at square one again. The “250 LI” groups won’t stop if an easier mode of the Raid is added. Case in point: Fractal CM entries require you to have done Fractal CM already to join… You’d think that with so many multiple tiers of difficulty, including the regular 100, groups would have enough to prove experience, but they do not.

Marshall Sed.8643:

But a group that learns the machanics together could move forward into the true Raids together. Thereby gaining the experience to join the better groups.

If you can find a group then doing the regular Raid isn’t impossible. The problem here is finding that group.

The problem isn’t raids as a concept its how they have been implemented (specifically in terms of accessibility) in Guild Wars 2 that is an issue.

Difficult challenging raids are a good thing.

However there should be difficulty settings and possibly in game voice chat to makes raids more accessible.

Difficulty settings for raids are available in almost ever other MMO, and I think probably the biggest issue in for newer players trying to break into raids. I honestly don’t understand why it isn’t a feature in guild wars. Even fractals you progress from easy to harder versions as you learn the mechanics/get better gear etc.

I understand that raids are meant to be the most difficult content but that alone is not a reason why they can’t have a easy or ‘normal’ difficulty for newer players to learn the mechanics of the raid before the DPS checks/boss damage etc. gets tuned up for the ‘real challenge’

The second issue is lack of in game voice communication now I know that the work around is TS or discord and it seems to be common that other large scale MMOs don’t offer this feature. However there are other MMOs who have implemented voice communication in instanced content very successfully (for party instance of 6 players and raid content of up to 12 players).

In game voice communication makes raiding with pick up groups so much easier. At the very least allowing the squad commander and 2 other players have voice comms would make a significant difference and would be useful in WvW/PvP too, also personally I think it would be a good thing for the community too.

Shinzan.2908:

Raids being elitist is kind of the point and why I think they are a mismatch for GW’s casual design style. I hope they’ll ditch them, and they’ll ad some alternative way to get legendary armor.

Glad no mention (that I have seen) of raids for the new expansion so far.

As much as I dislike the pressure cooker content I don’t think getting rid of it is the answer. Just adding heroes like in Guild Wars 1 would solve the problem. A single player could play it with only controlled NPC heroes, with mixed groups of players and commander controlled NPCs or all players. Of course they shouldn’t be allowed in open PvE but they would be perfect for instanced content. GW1 was all instanced content outside of the cities.

I doubt it’s going to make this kind of content easy because even if it’s a single player with all heroes it’s going to be a massive challenge to control the heroes while fighting.

Mostly, if I had to guess, because at their heart all players are nasty. We are kept friendly by game mechanics making it the laziest and most efficient option to work together in a friendly manner.

Add a mode where other players being suboptimal / screwing up / not carrying you makes you waste time, and people will rage and spew bile. See: MOBAs.

Carighan.6758:

Mostly, if I had to guess, because at their heart all players are nasty. We are kept friendly by game mechanics making it the laziest and most efficient option to work together in a friendly manner.

Add a mode where other players being suboptimal / screwing up / not carrying you makes you waste time, and people will rage and spew bile. See: MOBAs.

This.

JTGuevara.9018:

Raids are unfriendly by definition and design.

Sadly, yeah. They don’t have to be, there’s absolutely no reason why there couldn’t be easy raids. But as it is they are “endgame” by design … and anything “endgame” will be hostile because of the egos and status-jockeying attached to it. That’s why there’s usually a lot of angry pushback to the idea of making “endgame” more accessible, as if higher-difficulty content is somehow diminished by having a lower-difficulty version as well.

For some reason GW2’s raiders are more elitist than WoW ones. Which is very odd, considering WoW ones are far harder.

Chadramar.8156:

JTGuevara.9018:

Raids are unfriendly by definition and design.

Sadly, yeah. They don’t have to be, there’s absolutely no reason why there couldn’t be easy raids. But as it is they are “endgame” by design … and anything “endgame” will be hostile because of the egos and status-jockeying attached to it. That’s why there’s usually a lot of angry pushback to the idea of making “endgame” more accessible, as if higher-difficulty content is somehow diminished by having a lower-difficulty version as well.

A lot of the pushback is garden-variety elitism. The raid rewards would seem less prestigious if the rank and file were also able to access them.

But a lot of it is due to the relatively small pool of dev resources. A lot of basic features have yet to added (*cough build templates) and many other things we used to take for granted are rarely added (armor sets, for example). Compared to other MMOs we have very little instanced content, with very long wait periods between releases. Many believe that altering raids to be more inclusive would significantly increase the time it takes to release them. And of course those who have no need of easier options will oppose their addition.

Substatic.6958:

For some reason GW2’s raiders are more elitist than WoW ones. Which is very odd, considering WoW ones are far harder.

Haha, I had similar thoughts in the past. I usually compare it to Wildstar, but you’re right, I also don’t remember the kind of kitten I’ve seen here from WoW, Classic till WotLK. But it isn’t exclusive to raids, the GW2 community has always been more elitist (in a ridiculous sense) than other MMO communities.

Substatic.6958:

For some reason GW2’s raiders are more elitist than WoW ones. Which is very odd, considering WoW ones are far harder.

Because WoW caters to 2-3 raids with 3-5 wings on each one, plus 3 difficulties accompanying it – having a much wider audience.

Guild Wars 2 caters to 1 difficulty, in 1 raid with 4 wings.

Edit:
Please don’t say challenge motes are a new difficulty. They’re not, you don’t get repeat rewards from them.

Substatic.6958:

For some reason GW2’s raiders are more elitist than WoW ones. Which is very odd, considering WoW ones are far harder.

That one I can explain I think (lead raids for 8 years in WoW), it’s because of what a central status raids have in WoW.

As a result their PvE balance is much tighter (seriously, this is one of the few cases where I would use the words “GW2 doesn’t even begin to compare”, it really doesn’t), everyone has some experience with raids throuhg LFR, and people are used to failing raids.

On top of that, mechanics are clearly explained by an ingame raid guide and you have boss mods making sure the sensory overload of the spell effects (which is much less bad in WoW to begin with) doesn’t get you.

Combine all of that, and players are more used to having to re-do raid fights. Unlike in GW2, where we are used to undertuned events and 50/50 (assuming equal chances) PvP fights, we rage at wiping 20 times in a row in PvP, too. Give it to us in raids, we start looking for someone to blame, so we explode at the newcomers and basically anyone in reach.

It’s far from an ideal situation, though I am not sure whether a change to the solveable issues would help (those being an ingame guide and boss mods). It would probably not be enough, it also needs years upon years of finetuning and experience.

I do think that they need to work to make the existing raids more accessible though, with easy mode versions where anyone can jump in and learn the mechanics without wading through hours of pointless failure first.

Failure is the point of raids in the first place. There are two sides to it, though.

1. If the encounter is not hard enough that there is a real chance to fail, then it cannot be considered hard content. Thus, there is a point to failure. Unless the encounter is unforgiving, it cannot be considered a raid.
2. Chance for failure has a short shelf life. Once a player can beat an encounter consistently, then the brain chemistry changes that occur when facing a hard challenge diminish to the point where the rush is lower, or even gone. At that point, repeating raids is about: doing the hardest content available, and earning the reward(s), which require a lot of repetition. Once this point is reached, failure is no longer welcomed because it increases the tedium inherent in doing content you’ve done many times.

Number 2 is why we inevitably see complaints like the OP’s. It’s also why we also inevitably see players complain that raids are not hard.

Number 1 is the real issue, though. The problem for players like the OP is that players who come late to the party are going to have a hard time getting in the door.

Jahroots.6791:

Many believe that altering raids to be more inclusive would significantly increase the time it takes to release them.

Which is an odd argument, because surely resource would be better spent on something that more people can enjoy. Outside of the vaunted exclusive “endgame”, you usually hear the opposite argument, in fact. (Used, for example, against roleplayers, or people who crave more gear that isn’t designed exclusively with humans in mind, or people who’d like more racial dialog in the story or more of a focus on the story in general.)

And of course those who have no need of easier options will oppose their addition.

The selfish tosspots among them, sure, but thankfully not every “top” player is like that.

Shinzan.2908:

Raids being elitist is kind of the point and why I think they are a mismatch for GW’s casual design style. I hope they’ll ditch them, and they’ll ad some alternative way to get legendary armor.

Glad no mention (that I have seen) of raids for the new expansion so far.

Lol theres elitism everywhere in gw2 since the begining.

Yeah, unfortunately people will find something to latch on to as an excuse to look down on the “filthy casuals”. “Endgame” basically encourages that attitude, as does PvP, but failing that anything goes.

I just can’t get over “training raids” that is the funniest concept to me.

Tekoneiric.6817:

saeleth.3915:

Being someone who hasn’t raided previously in GW2, I’d like to get into it. But honestly the vibe I have gotten across the board has been that its pretty much out of the question unless you are lucky enough to find a “training” group. I looked in LFG and it was pretty much only wanting exp players.

Am I missing that much if I don’t get to experience raiding?

My main gripe is about raids is the same as dungeons and fractals. To many high strung types are drawn to them. ANet seems to go out of their way to lock content and rewards behind forced multi-player instances because they assume everyone wants or should to be social. PvE is about as social as many people want to be. Going into pressure cooker instances is very stressful for some people like myself. Plus there is finding people to join a group when your ready to play.

It’s easy for some people to say that you don’t have to do it but if you want specific achievements, unlocks or rewards it’s your only choice.

I unfortunately have had to do Ascalonian Catacombs so I can get Ascalonian Tears to make the Nightfury Skin. My experiences haven’t been the best.

I really wish ANet would give us a version of heroes (controlled NPCs) like GW1 that we can use for dungeons and raids. You could fill the player slots with real players or heroes. If we could use our own characters for the hero slots we could equip and build them to our needs.

This^

I always found the rather extreme amount of elitism in this game to be strange and incredibly off putting. Are the raids really hard enough to force everyone that wants to play one to go with the “meta” of the specific raid allowed classes?
I know I’m unlikely to ever be allowed on a raid team with a power reaper because its not part of the almighty meta. Hell I’m not sure a necromancer even counts as part of the meta these days with any build.

So, the elitism in this game makes the raids (and some other team stuff) extremely unpleasant and it really is the worst I’ve seen in any of the MMOs I’ve played.