Guild Wars 2

moony.5780:

i just read the first post….soooo:

for me i think having an option for perma 25% speed would be nice..always in wvw i either need sacrifice a skill which would help me to survive or actually kill someone…or i lose a rune..which is extremly bad..also that i loce to play mesmer on the confusion rune…and there is no way for me to get speed..not even 33% for 2 seconds or something….so many enemies just run away when they notice they gona die..and i sloooowly walk after them…or i want run away myself..and cant catch up (bcs all the others have perma 25% speed..me not)

But how can this be mate, according to the OP you lose nothing by getting the 6 slot runes to get 25% speed so why arent you. Its so easy to get noone should be without it.

OP looks like we just debunked your whole argument again.

I won’t try to speak for every class because I don’t play them all as often as others. But, there are trade-offs to taking a permanent speed buff in my favorite class(es). If I cannot take X because I took Y instead there is a trade-off or opportunity cost even if the game, open world PvE in particular, is not excessively challenging.

The trade-off can be direct (one less offensive or defensive buff or general utility skill) or indirect (not accepted in a party because other players can see the signet icon). Or even both.

Unless it can be demonstrated that a non speed buff utility skill can occupy the same utility slot as a speed buff skill at the same time, there is an opportunity cost associated with choosing one option over the other.

Erasmus.1624:

Ardid.7203:

The problem is that people insist on seeing combat as the only component of the game. It is not. Exploration exists, too, and to make an “exploration-focused build” with perma-swiftness IS a trade-off of making a “combat-focused build” with some perma-combat-boon.

Yes, but my point is that in places where swiftness matters the most, combat doesn’t; and in places where combat matters the most, swiftness is suddenly mostly irrelevant except maybe as a mere cover boon. At such a point, swiftness may as well just be baseline or not exist at all since there’s nothing to compromise when one invests entirely into one or the other: there actually is no trade-off.

If there is not a trade-off, then why to bother with this thread?. You are saying everyone already have permaswiftness when needed, and optimal combat when needed. Why do we need any change at all?

IMO the trade-off exists. Changing builds is bothersome, and finding the right build that satisfies your personal combat and movement priorities the best is part of the game.

Also, swiftness IS very useful in combat, specially when you need to kite or chase people. Most of my survavility in WvW and PvP is about having huge amounts of vigor and the swiftness to replenish it when in a hard spot. It also serves me well to change from one claim spot to another while the rest fall behind and gets trapped in combat. In PvE, I’m the first to get to that event or boss that hardly last enough to tag it, and I also haven’t any problem skipping mobs or jumping over long the moment I need it.

The point is: some people will sacrifice swiftness to have better combat, some people will sacrifice better combat to get swiftness, and a thrid group would sacrifice time to change from one to the other every time. If we all have the same, flat speed, those alternatives, those differences in basic playstyle would not be there anymore.

Seera.5916:

People in games will always demand to go faster. If left unchecked, people would eventually need “boons” to slow themselves down in order to do jumping puzzles.

Just because I can raise points to challenge swiftness’ existence in GW2 doesn’t necessarily mean that anyone should push for an even faster speed threshold beyond it. The points that I’ve raised call to abolish swiftness and incorporated into baseline player movement speed. Super speed already remains so much faster than swiftness that it will still have a strong impact in combat. Period. That’s it. We have everything we need.

Besides, AS I’VE SAID MULTIPLE TIMES BEFORE, if anyone wants to “move” quickly in GW2, they will use a scripted movement animation or a scripted teleport to do it. WASD at any player speed is not fast enough to outrun damage in most scenarios in GW2.

Seera.5916:

Even under your suggestion, people would want more access to the super speed.

While that is true, super speed is ideally left at a 3 second duration. Recharge times can help properly cull it’s maintenance. Only an utter fool with no concept of design would allow such a powerful speed boost to be constantly maintained without a player who can do it suffering something like -100% outgoing damage in exchange (think Sticky Jumper or Rocket Jumper in Team Fortress 2).

Then when that is granted, we’re back to where we all now. People going: “super speed is so easy to get and maintain, we might as well make it the new base speed and add in super super speed.”

Seera.5916:

And it’s not an opinion that my guardian and warrior don’t run with anything to boost their speed. It’s a fact.

Yes, but it’s your opinion that you tolerate it even though you can easily have at the bare minimum a 50% uptime on swiftness or permanent 25% faster movement speed by giving up either a utility slot or your rune set respectively. In places where you would want to permanently move faster, the combat difficulty and generally low HP of all enemies will gladly oblige your “non-meta” decisions.

Seera.5916:

My opinion is that we go fast enough considering the waypoints that are everywhere. WvW is spread out because it’s not supposed to be res-wars. It’s supposed to be catastrophic for a group to wipe when defending or attacking. Not to be able to be back in the action in 5 seconds.

I wasn’t talking at all about the size of WvW maps. As I’ve said before, swiftness doesn’t even make players move that fast in comparison to most of the overworld/WvW maps. It is, however, mostly taken for granted because everyone has it to some extent, and in the case of WvW, everyone will have it forever if we’re talking within the context of a group.

Ardid.7203:

If there is not a trade-off, then why to bother with this thread?

The point is exactly that: if there is no real trade-off when it’s justifiable to dip into permaswiftness, then it might as well be baseline. The fact that everyone gets it so easily when they want it anyway (even if it isn’t necessarily fully permanent) makes it nothing more than bloat for the sake of flavor.

Discussion over guys. Erasmus is right we’re all wrong. Moving on.

Erasmus.1624:

Ardid.7203:

If there is not a trade-off, then why to bother with this thread?

The point is exactly that: if there is no real trade-off when it’s justifiable to dip into permaswiftness, then it might as well be baseline. The fact that everyone gets it so easily when they want it anyway (even if it isn’t necessarily fully permanent) makes it nothing more than bloat for the sake of flavor.

How is there no real trade-off when my PvP guardian has to run Traveler runes instead of things that would help my combat effectiveness a lot more just because moving with it is very incredibly slow and positioning is key in PvP.

Erasmus.1624:

Ardid.7203:

If there is not a trade-off, then why to bother with this thread?

The point is exactly that: if there is no real trade-off when it’s justifiable to dip into permaswiftness, then it might as well be baseline. The fact that everyone gets it so easily when they want it anyway (even if it isn’t necessarily fully permanent) makes it nothing more than bloat for the sake of flavor.

But there IS a trade off. With my characters and their set ups I’d need to trade weapons/traits/utilities/runes in order to get the near permaswiftness thats apparently so easy to come by.

Facts:
Warrior: Axe, Axe/Longbow Valkyrie gear, eagle runes. HS, BoS, Precision Signet, BoD, SoR.
Limited access to swiftness at the expense of Long cool downs on banners and signet.

Necro: Scepter, Dagger/Staff, Rabid gear, Krait runes. Consume Conditions, Blood is power, Well of suffering, Well of Darkness, Lich form.
Extremely limited/no access to swiftness.

Guardian: Mace, Shield/Staff. Cleric Gear, Dwayna runes?. Receive the light, Hold the line, retreat, stand your ground, feel my wrath
Decent amount of swiftness. Need to use the right skills at the right times to keep it near perma swiftness.

Ranger: GS/Longbow. Beserker gear, ranger runes. Healing Spring, Sic ’em, Frost Spirit, Quickening Zephyr, Entangle
Limited access to swiftness.

Elementalist: Staff. Soldier gear, (Can’t recall runes)
Good access to swiftness with skills, and combos.

So If I wanted to have near perma swiftness on any of these characters I would need to change quite a few things around. The point is, you need to build each class a certain way in order to gain so much swiftness that it becomes irrelevant. So again, yes there is a trade off, and not one that everyone is willing to make in order to have that much swiftness.

Reasons the OP is wrong

1. Aren’t swiftness and crippled a matched pair for boon/condition conversions? Both being fairly long term applications, I would say that is a reason for swiftness right there. If anything, what is the point of super speed?
2. I also find it a meaningful buff to be able to move noticeably faster than other players. Especially in sPvP and WvW. I couldn’t imagine someone in either setting disagreeing on this point when positioning is so important.
3. High swiftness uptime requires sacrifice. Sure we can run travelers runes, but the speed boost is the only redeeming feature of that rune set. This means traiting for the speed, or giving up skill slots, or using weapons you would rather not. Perhaps for your favorite class it is trivial, but how many guardians do you see with Perma swiftness, even with the less than amazing staff? Heck, I probably wouldn’t even use guardian staff if not for swiftness. That screams trade-off right there.

Seriously, swiftness requires trade offs. You seem to not value these trade offs because to you a single skill slot or trait is nothing, but for many of us we see the damage or utility we give up when we go for the increased speed. Some classes do seem to win out more than others when it comes to swiftness(engineer comes to mind), but that’s also part of class balance.

in my opinion, base movement is a bit slow. If each class had a signet that increased base movement speed to 25% (passive) AND its active improved vitality +xx% and was a stun breaker, then choosing this signet for most folks would be easier.

But some classes do not have a signet. Others have such a crappy active that its not worth taking.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

Reasons the OP is wrong

1. Aren’t swiftness and crippled a matched pair for boon/condition conversions? Both being fairly long term applications, I would say that is a reason for swiftness right there. If anything, what is the point of super speed?

While swiftness/crippled conversions make logical sense, in reality, that exchange is primarily flavor-centric. It’s the same reason why chill converts into resistance or bleeding into vigor (if you’re using a necro well): that is to say, there is no real reason aside from a potential jab at flavor. Keep in mind that flavor was entirely behind the original Engineer Rocket Boots and look how well those worked out to everyone’s liking (spoiler: they were completely changed to what they are now).

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

1. I also find it

For the umpteeth time, do not begin an argument with “I think” or “I find it” or “I believe.” Start with a question or an actual declarative statement about the established reality of your topic instead of a clause that highlights how what’s coming up is mainly just your opinion on something.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

a meaningful buff to be able to move noticeably faster than other players. Especially in sPvP and WvW. I couldn’t imagine someone in either setting disagreeing on this point when positioning is so important.

Except positioning isn’t important in a game dominated by ranged attacks which don’t miss, instant teleport abilities, and the fact that instead of actually avoiding damage with WASD, players face-tank incoming damage, but pretend that they aren’t actually standing in a big red circle or someone’s cleave range only because the game is telling them that they are “evading,” or “blocking,” or “invulnerable.” While it is possible to attain “good positioning” in GW2, such positioning is so easily compromised by anyone merely pressing a button that the concept of “good positioning” is greatly contrived.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

1. High swiftness uptime requires sacrifice. Sure we can run travelers runes, but the speed boost is the only redeeming feature of that rune set. This means traiting for the speed, or giving up skill slots, or using weapons you would rather not. Perhaps for your favorite class it is trivial, but how many guardians do you see with Perma swiftness, even with the less than amazing staff? Heck, I probably wouldn’t even use guardian staff if not for swiftness. That screams trade-off right there.

People just don’t read. It’s not that there isn’t a trade-off: there is. However, the trade-off comes in scenarios which primarily negate the trade-off detriments or discourage trading off at all for very justifiable reasons. You run guardian staff because you want swiftness and tagging ability while running with mobs in WvW/overworld PvE (the latter of which can easily be soloed with your second weapon anyway). In those modes, sheer player numbers and/or lack of NPC mob HP make it so most “sub-optimal” gear choices are mostly moot. It’s the reason why vitality/toughness stats are pretty meta in WvW blobs: everyone can get away with dealing mediocre damage because there are just so many people dealing mediocre damage together that it equates out to absurd amounts of it.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

You seem to not value these trade offs because to you a single skill slot or trait is nothing, but for many of us we see the damage or utility we give up when we go for the increased speed.

If you’re playing the meta, your choice will be very obvious. Obvious and benefitting enough that someone who knows how to read tool tips will just sacrifice moving 33% faster all of the time for something more overpowered like invulnerability, passive conditions, CC or instant damage. I’ve already mentioned how swiftness alone will not effectively prevent damage in GW2 combat outside of the situation of maybe fighting some PvE mobs who won’t kill anyone normally anyway.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

Some classes do seem to win out more than others when it comes to swiftness(engineer comes to mind), but that’s also part of class balance.

If a class is going to have a permanent speed boost, their gameplay might as well be designed around it. However, permanent swiftness is effectively nothing more than an out-of-combat convenience rather than a defining combat feature (especially since it’s a flat, homogenized buff that anyone can apply or get) given how easy it is to give chase or engage in GW2 with all of its teleports, immunities and movement skills.

Erasmus.1624:

I’ve already mentioned how swiftness alone will not effectively prevent damage in GW2 combat outside of the situation of maybe fighting some PvE mobs who won’t kill anyone normally anyway.

I take it you’ve never done Arah paths with PUGs before, have you?

Of course, the better question is why you consider a 33% speed boost meaningless but a 50% speed boost meaningful. The latter is only 13% faster, after all.

We use swiftness to jump further in jumping puzzles (it even effected leap skills to launch us further untill recently )

Blaine Tog.8304:

The latter is only 13% faster, after all.

12.8% relatively. :P (150/133)

Where we start to see some of the problem is in the breakpoints between normal, increased, and swiftness.

100% / 125% / 133%

When not having a trait or signet for it, moving at 80% speed is utterly glacial in comparison when traveling. Moving at 125 feels about where the game should have been the entire time, and Swiftness is just candy on top of that.

If not for PvP/WvW, I doubt this would even be necessary for reconsideration, but positioning in combat and roaming speed out of combat are both important balancing factors for those two modes, which leaves PvE in the lurch.

Erasmus.1624:

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

1. I also find it

For the umpteeth time, do not begin an argument with “I think” or “I find it” or “I believe.” Start with a question or an actual declarative statement about the established reality of your topic instead of a clause that highlights how what’s coming up is mainly just your opinion on something.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

a meaningful buff to be able to move noticeably faster than other players. Especially in sPvP and WvW. I couldn’t imagine someone in either setting disagreeing on this point when positioning is so important.

Except positioning isn’t important in a game dominated by ranged attacks which don’t miss, instant teleport abilities, and the fact that instead of actually avoiding damage with WASD, players face-tank incoming damage, but pretend that they aren’t actually standing in a big red circle or someone’s cleave range only because the game is telling them that they are “evading,” or “blocking,” or “invulnerable.” While it is possible to attain “good positioning” in GW2, such positioning is so easily compromised by anyone merely pressing a button that the concept of “good positioning” is greatly contrived.

It seems that you are reducing the argument down to nit-picking. However, such statements of “I find” are valid arguments in a discussion. It implies that the one making the statement has actual, verifiable evidence that supports their statements. You could replace “I find” with “Evidence supports” or “Tests have shown” and achieve the exact same results. The ONLY difference is the formatting. One is first person, the latter is third. You are ignoring his point.

As far as positioning. Positioning IS important in GW2. It’s is used extensively in open world PvE, Dungeons, WvW, and PvP. If positioning didn’t matter then stacking wouldn’t be a thing. There wouldn’t be certain places on world bosses that take double damage if standing in the exact right spot. It wouldn’t matter where you place that arrow cart in WvW to get the most coverage. In PvP having the high ground on certain maps wouldn’t matter. Even with people ranging everything in open world PvE, positioning matters greatly. Longbow Ranger for example. The most effective use of the longbow is at 1500 range (Ranger longbow does the most damage the further back you are). That means, in order to be the most effective with a longbow, you need to “position” yourself as far back as possible and still hit your target. Also standing in certain spots to avoid attacks is key to certain fights.

So what does “Swiftness” mean for positioning?
Simply put, the faster one can get to the desirable position, the more effective they will be. If one can get to the double damage spot faster with swiftness and start doing damage before those without swiftness can, the boss fight becomes that much shorter. In WvW, those with swiftness can reach the keep quicker in order to mount a better defense and buy the keep more time, and allow for more reinforcements to arrive. In PvP, the faster one gets to a point, the sooner one can begin capping/de-capping, which leads to more points for your team faster, and less points for the other team.

Erasmus.1624:

• Every class in this game has already either had permanent swiftness since launch or complained enough to get it by now. It’s effortless to maintain.

Excuse me? No, have you even played mesmer? From what I see mesmer is one of the (if not the one) slowest class in the game and has very few sources of swiftness, then no, not all classes has permanent swiftness and the options available are too few and require some trade-off (like replacing sigils or traits) to get some more swiftness.

Erasmus.1624:

• If someone really wants to “move” quickly for whatever reason, that person will use a scripted movement ability or a teleport. Not only are those re-positioning abilities not actually real movement (because the server is doing the vast majority of the work for the player in that case), but it also calls into question the point of swiftness at all if it’s only viable gameplay purpose is making a player move just slightly faster from non-combat point A to non-combat point B.

And if I read it right, any method to move through scripted or automated ways would be looked as exploit then I don’t get this point.

Oh dear, look at this entitled crybaby, would you rather everyone just move at super speedhack speed instead? would that be more entertaining to you? does moving at base speed annoy you so much that you feel speed buffs should be mandatory?

Applying swiftness to yourself or others is something you/others include into builds to be at maximum effectiveness, and is most of the time a tradeoff, rather than maximum be the new minimum as you would like it to be without putting any thought into how the game function works.

Erasmus.1624:

• Every class in this game has already either had permanent swiftness since launch or complained enough to get it by now. It’s effortless to maintain.
• The game is also already bloated with multiple “Move 25% faster” modifiers for every class (runes, signets, traits), which dilutes the effect of having swiftness on a player even further because of how little it actually increases the player’s base movement speed at that point.
• GW2’s movement speed in and out of combat is already more sluggish than the ice caps; having swiftness doesn’t make the player all that much faster because there isn’t even that much to fundamentally increase. This is not open to anecdotal comparisons like “But if I have swiftness on, I’m noticeably faster than someone who doesn’t have swiftness even in combat! It’s totally noticeable!” Of course you are. You’re moving 33% faster than that guy. However, 133% base movement speed in GW2 is still incredibly slow in general, especially when one considers how fast damage/CC travels in this game.
• If someone really wants to “move” quickly for whatever reason, that person will use a scripted movement ability or a teleport. Not only are those re-positioning abilities not actually real movement (because the server is doing the vast majority of the work for the player in that case), but it also calls into question the point of swiftness at all if it’s only viable gameplay purpose is making a player move just slightly faster from non-combat point A to non-combat point B.
• Players already have loads of other boons to corrupt/steal.

So why does swiftness exist again? Why is player speed not just the current 133% at all times with bursts of “super speed” (such an awful name) being the actual “player movement speed increase buff” in the game? At least a player can actually see a drastic effect on movement speed while under the effects of super speed while in combat (since it’s worthless outside of combat due to the global player movement speed cap).

you do realize shiro has super quickness which is over 200% base speed, right? swiftness is a convenient way to travel, you can sacrifice speed for power, or you can go full on super swiftness and get the hell out of there/in there. and movement speed isn’t useless… when I’m on my engi and drink a speed pot I definitely notice a speed boost to get where I’m going.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Erasmus.1624:

I’ve already mentioned how swiftness alone will not effectively prevent damage in GW2 combat outside of the situation of maybe fighting some PvE mobs who won’t kill anyone normally anyway.

I take it you’ve never done Arah paths with PUGs before, have you?

Of course, the better question is why you consider a 33% speed boost meaningless but a 50% speed boost meaningful. The latter is only 13% faster, after all.

Super speed is actually a 100% speed boost. While it’s irrelevant out of combat because everyone just has swiftness, it’s actually a dramatic boost while in combat due to the 27% combat speed malus.

Why? To frustrate the players asking for mounts muhahaha.

(just joking—-or am I?)

pdavis.8031:

You are ignoring his point.

I made a tangent and you got overly hooked on it. I addressed his points in other parts of my post.

pdavis.8031:

As far as positioning. Positioning IS important in GW2. It’s is used extensively in open world PvE, Dungeons,

Modes in which the AI is easily read, possibly even stationary, attacks incredibly slowly, and can be baited into entirely too advantageous positions for the players with effectively no effort. Swiftness can be useful for moving from place to place, but it’s hardly necessary for combat (especially with movement skills and teleports around).

pdavis.8031:

WvW

Actually, given that no one is necessarily tied to extremely small, glowing circles in order to get anything done, WvW has a pretty decent set-up for combat positioning. Again, however, swiftness never cuts it when competing against any normal ranged combat tool that any player uses. Whether it be teleporting, scripted movement abilities, the occasional super speed, or just regular ranged attacks (barring a very select few or the situation in which both players are just attacking from absolute maximum range and the projectiles in question actually have their own scripted flight path instead of just bee-lining and bending to a selected target), swiftness will never compete with the mundane tools of combat “movement” in GW2 and will never help a player to quickly regain “good positioning” once it is so casually compromised by someone pressing often just a single button.

pdavis.8031:

and PvP.

That’s actually the funniest one: “positioning” matters in the game-mode where “good positioning” is already defined for the players by little circle markers on the map. Even then, once a player takes up “good positioning,” it’s so easily compromised by damage spam and teleports that the game has become entirely choked with stability, invulnerability, vigor, CC and passive/rapid healing to the point at which “compromising someone’s good positioning” is merely just the beginning of the process of whittling through an enemy’s invuln periods while the two (or more) of you stand relatively close together and eat most every attack anyway. Another reminder to everyone that when words like “evade,” “block,” and “invulnerable” pop up on the screen, it doesn’t mean that you smartly evaded them with “good positioning;” it means that you ate them because avoiding damage with “good positioning” alone in GW2 is a moot discussion. It doesn’t happen, which is why everyone has crutches that prolong combat and help people pretend that they’re dragging out a skillful encounter.

pdavis.8031:

If positioning didn’t matter then stacking wouldn’t be a thing.

Actually, stacking is a thing precisely because positioning doesn’t matter. Remember, you’re technically getting hit when you dodge or when a single Guardian aegis tanks a hit for the whole party. It’s because of these mechanics that players are allowed to stand in asinine positions, face into a wall, nestle right inside of enemy attack hit-boxes and still melt targets down without taking any damage (or at least not dying).

pdavis.8031:

There wouldn’t be certain places on world bosses that take double damage if standing in the exact right spot.

Cleave range is absolutely enormous in GW2. Pairing that up with huge, stationary enemy hit-boxes isn’t clever or smart: it’s basic sense.

pdavis.8031:

It wouldn’t matter where you place that arrow cart in WvW to get the most coverage.

Technically, yes, but ideal defensive locations are obvious enough, the range of arrow carts is long enough, and their AoEs are large enough that pushing a concept of “optimized arrow cart positioning” is a little bit of a stretch. It’s most effective when fired from locations at which the user can attack unhindered for an extended period of time. Locations like that in WvW are incredibly obvious. While a zerg might be able to speed build a load of carts in the field and use them as artillery (which in theory is an interesting play which might require a bit of forethought), again arrow cart range and AoE size will carry them to effectiveness rather than “positioning.” Besides, a bunch of field carts would probably be overrun by another blob bathed in the standard protection, stability and passively regenerating health ticks.

pdavis.8031:

Longbow Ranger for example. The most effective use of the longbow is at 1500 range (Ranger longbow does the most damage the further back you are). That means, in order to be the most effective with a longbow, you need to “position” yourself as far back as possible and still hit your target.

While this is true, the fact that it’s so easy to hit a target with a projectile from 1500+ range (because the true maximum range is actually closer to 1800 given the projectile’s permanence before fading combined with its continued arc from a higher elevation) speaks volumes about the original topic: the uselessness of swiftness in combat when it comes to actively avoiding damage without just eating a hit but having the game tell you that you evaded, blocked or invulned it by pressing a button.

pdavis.8031:

So what does “Swiftness” mean for positioning?
Simply put, the faster one can get to the desirable position, the more effective they will be.

The guy who is going to get there faster is the guy who has teleports or scripted movement abilities; not swiftness. If we’re talking about PvP roll-outs, the whole team is going to collectively stack some level of swiftness at the start of the game. Once those people with swiftness reach a designated combat zone, movement slows down into irrelevancy beyond twitchy teleports (which isn’t even really player movement since the server is the one moving the avatar at that point).

pdavis.8031:

If one can get to the double damage spot faster with swiftness and start doing damage before those without swiftness

The boss has plenty of health to wait for you without your swiftness in order to hit stand roughly between two hit-boxes and press 1.

pdavis.8031:

In WvW, those with swiftness can reach the keep quicker in order to mount a better defense and buy the keep more time, and allow for more reinforcements to arrive.

This is another group-related thing. The blob will provide itself with swiftness rather than individuals necessarily constantly worrying about maintaining their own private stock.

pdavis.8031:

In PvP, the faster one gets to a point, the sooner one can begin capping/de-capping, which leads to more points for your team faster, and less points for the other team.

I touched on this point already. It also doesn’t help your case that thieves and portal mesmers (teleport buttons) are the best turning a colored point into a different color when someone isn’t looking.

This is why i use rune of the traveler on all my main peeps (that cant generate it with their weapons). Having permanent 25% speed boost is amazeballs.

p.s. i don’t see the problem with swiftness in this game.

Swiftness vs mounts

Other MMO’s have tried speed boosts but they all go back to mounts it’s a cash cow after all. Mounts in TP and mounts that require ages grinding to obtain not only keep the population up but the income coming as well.

There is no difference from getting a 33% speed buff from a skill or from a horse. There just reskins anyway of your movement animation it’s a video games and mounts aren’t items that need to be maintained there just skins.

That said gliders are this games answer no doubt as I’m sure there will be glider skins in the Cash Shop or once that need an absurd amount of in game time to obtain. Heck we already have a pre-order bonus glider and I’m sure the TP will get it’s own tab to create a gold redistribution/sink then there’s the cash shop gathering collectors.

All that said swiftness is this games version of mount travel there both speed boosts and it seems gliders may be filling the other obligations of this traditional MMO staple.

Oh and the people who want mounts are completley aware that there purely cosmetic they win over swiftness due to the trade off required to obtain that swiftness. My Mesmer uses travelers runes has been for a long time and while I’d rather use another set it comes in handy for WvW and farming mats. Other Mesmers will be forced to trait Chrono for speed and my Guardian has zip the kittening of builds in a game with so few skills and complete lack of the template system is more than simply annoying just to decrease the time running between gathering nodes or roaming in wvw.

Doam.8305:

Swiftness vs mounts

Mounts are an idea given that my point is ultimately: WASD movement in combat (even with swiftness applied) is outclassed by other very basic, mundane combat mechanics. Therefore, having a mount system wouldn’t be terrible given that it would just be a way to get from non-combat Point A to non-combat Point B (as is the current primary function of swiftness). However, I don’t think that GW2 really needs mounts (just my opinion). I’d be easier (and less tacky) to just fold swiftness speed into base player speed and let super speed continue to have its role as the “short-duration, dramatic, in-combat speed boost.”

Doam.8305:

That said gliders are this games answer

Gliders are only for 3 zones, players still can’t use skills while in the air, they most likely won’t actually move too much faster (or faster at all) than base player speeds, and they can only be used effectively after manually walking (or by using some EXCITING AND DYNAMIC INTERACTION NODES™ by pressing F after grinding a FRESH AND ENGAGING™ time-gated mastery line) up to a proper vantage point from which to jump and deploy the thing. You’re right about the cash-shop squeeze, though.

Doam.8305:

All that said swiftness is this games version of mount travel there both speed boosts and it seems gliders may be filling the other obligations of this traditional MMO staple.

So I guess my argument is why is it a staple at all? Why not just make overworld movement fast if it’s not going to matter all that much in combat anyway since everyone is teleporting around, being immune to incoming CC/damage for extended periods of time, and attacking with ranged, auto-guided attacks that can’t really miss unless you’re out of maximum range or deliberately shooting them into a wall that is between you and your target?

The fact that speed buffs have to be tacked on afterward is just an element of poor fundamental design: either they are pandering to some niche flavor or nostalgia factor, or they legitimately just didn’t play their game enough to realize that everyone moves like frozen molasses when compared to both the average speed of outgoing damage across all classes and the size of the overworld respectively.

Doam.8305:

Oh and the people who want mounts are completley aware that there purely cosmetic

I personally have no issue with any cosmetic aspects of gameplay (except for the cringeworthy cosmetic additions which go in contrary to the world’s original flavor in an effort to pander to immature and shallow consumers, but it’s far, far too late to wish against that in GW2 and probably folly to wish against it at all nowadays regardless of the genre but especially within the realm of games marketed as MMORPGs). It is the true end-game after all. I would even encourage it. I still just don’t see the need for mounts in GW2. Again, however, that is just my personal opinion.

My only real point is that mounts would just be redundant and would only really help cement my argument against the existence of swiftness or an out-of-combat speed boost at all if everyone just got fun creatures to ride anyway. They are both one in the same (as you have already mentioned).

Yeah, I agree.

Seems to me that it should either be made more valuable than it currently is, in combat, or should just be provided as standard to everyone.

One of the things they got rid of, in WoW, three years ago, were talents that boosted speed, as they felt they didn’t offer enough to make them worthwhile choices, compared with the other talents on offer.

So, basically, red herrings.

Of course, they have mounts in WoW and speed boosts are often used as an excuse for why mounts aren’t needed in this game and/or would make it unbalanced.

Get rid of, or standardise the speed boosts and mounts would no longer be a threat to (supposed) balance.

Tigaseye.2047:

Yeah, I agree.

Seems to me that it should either be made more valuable than it currently is, in combat, or should just be provided as standard to everyone.

One of the things they got rid of, in WoW, three years ago, were talents that boosted speed, as they felt they didn’t offer enough to make them worthwhile choices, compared with the other talents on offer.

So, basically, red herrings.

Of course, they have mounts in WoW and speed boosts are often used as an excuse for why mounts aren’t needed in this game and/or would make it unbalanced.

Get rid of, or standardise the speed boosts and mounts would no longer be a threat to (supposed) balance.

I’m sure WoW’s nixing of some speed boosts was also based on PvP. When flag-running is a thing, static speed improvements and slipping root effects made Druid the go-to for grab-and-go. Not to say those speed boosts are gone.
They gave increased speed to stealthed rogues. -_-#

To a degree, the speed boost issue in GW2 led me to one of my favorite (now nerfed, sigh) builds with my warrior. Once they fix banner cooldowns, I’ll be right as rain, but I mostly appreciated that speccing for swiftness led me to a more support-oriented build.

Erasmus.1624:

Doam.8305:

Swiftness vs mounts

Mounts are an idea given that my point is ultimately: WASD movement in combat (even with swiftness applied) is outclassed by other very basic, mundane combat mechanics. Therefore, having a mount system wouldn’t be terrible given that it would just be a way to get from non-combat Point A to non-combat Point B (as is the current primary function of swiftness). However, I don’t think that GW2 really needs mounts (just my opinion). I’d be easier (and less tacky) to just fold swiftness speed into base player speed and let super speed continue to have its role as the “short-duration, dramatic, in-combat speed boost.”

Doam.8305:

That said gliders are this games answer

Gliders are only for 3 zones, players still can’t use skills while in the air, they most likely won’t actually move too much faster (or faster at all) than base player speeds, and they can only be used effectively after manually walking (or by using some EXCITING AND DYNAMIC INTERACTION NODES™ by pressing F after grinding a FRESH AND ENGAGING™ time-gated mastery line) up to a proper vantage point from which to jump and deploy the thing. You’re right about the cash-shop squeeze, though.

Doam.8305:

All that said swiftness is this games version of mount travel there both speed boosts and it seems gliders may be filling the other obligations of this traditional MMO staple.

So I guess my argument is why is it a staple at all? Why not just make overworld movement fast if it’s not going to matter all that much in combat anyway since everyone is teleporting around, being immune to incoming CC/damage for extended periods of time, and attacking with ranged, auto-guided attacks that can’t really miss unless you’re out of maximum range or deliberately shooting them into a wall that is between you and your target?

The fact that speed buffs have to be tacked on afterward is just an element of poor fundamental design: either they are pandering to some niche flavor or nostalgia factor, or they legitimately just didn’t play their game enough to realize that everyone moves like frozen molasses when compared to both the average speed of outgoing damage across all classes and the size of the overworld respectively.

Doam.8305:

Oh and the people who want mounts are completley aware that there purely cosmetic

I personally have no issue with any cosmetic aspects of gameplay (except for the cringeworthy cosmetic additions which go in contrary to the world’s original flavor in an effort to pander to immature and shallow consumers, but it’s far, far too late to wish against that in GW2 and probably folly to wish against it at all nowadays regardless of the genre but especially within the realm of games marketed as MMORPGs). It is the true end-game after all. I would even encourage it. I still just don’t see the need for mounts in GW2. Again, however, that is just my personal opinion.

My only real point is that mounts would just be redundant and would only really help cement my argument against the existence of swiftness or an out-of-combat speed boost at all if everyone just got fun creatures to ride anyway. They are both one in the same (as you have already mentioned).

but if it does nothing in your oppinion why should they merge it into base line just remove it, wouldent that be a far easier solution?

Didn’t anet cite people moving too fast across maps as the reason for nerfing movement skills?

It’s always funny to see someone going through incredible mental gymnastics in an effort to present his/her opinion as fact, trying to invalidate everyone else’s views in the process.

why am i physically able to run? shouldn’t my kitteny body just take me places quicker with less effort

Erasmus: Allow me to retort…

PvE:
“Modes in which the AI is easily read, possibly even stationary, attacks incredibly slowly, and can be baited into entirely too advantageous positions for the players with effectively no effort. Swiftness can be useful for moving from place to place, but it’s hardly necessary for combat (especially with movement skills and teleports around).”

Swiftness may not be “necessary” while IN combat, but as you said, it’s “useful for moving place to place.” Which is the entire point of swiftness. Being able to move from place to place quickly. It certainly is helpful when kiting enemies to certain locations, or moving out of ranger of a specific attack quicker. So it does have it’s IN combat uses, as well as outside of combat.

WvW:
“Actually, given that no one is necessarily tied to extremely small, glowing circles in order to get anything done, WvW has a pretty decent set-up for combat positioning. Again, however, swiftness never cuts it when competing against any normal ranged combat tool that any player uses. Whether it be teleporting, scripted movement abilities, the occasional super speed, or just regular ranged attacks (barring a very select few or the situation in which both players are just attacking from absolute maximum range and the projectiles in question actually have their own scripted flight path instead of just bee-lining and bending to a selected target), swiftness will never compete with the mundane tools of combat “movement” in GW2 and will never help a player to quickly regain “good positioning” once it is so casually compromised by someone pressing often just a single button.”

So your saying that essentially swiftness is negated by ranged attacks? Because one can’t “outrun” a ranged projectile? Just trying to be clear.

“This is another group-related thing. The blob will provide itself with swiftness rather than individuals necessarily constantly worrying about maintaining their own private stock.”

It doesn’t matter HOW the swiftness is supplied. The point is the blob that is the fastest to the target stands the best chance. In attacking, its more beneficial to have the blob move quickly, to take that tower. The quicker they get there the less chance the defenders can defend. When defending, the quicker the defense can mount, the better the chances of staving off the attack. However, unless individuals within the blob are speccing for swiftness application to a group (that is, having to give something else up) then the blob moves slower. Swiftness isn’t magically applied to a blob just because. There is a reason people spec for it, even in a blob. It helps the blob move faster, longer.

“Technically, yes, but ideal defensive locations are obvious enough, the range of arrow carts is long enough, and their AoEs are large enough that pushing a concept of “optimized arrow cart positioning” is a little bit of a stretch. It’s most effective when fired from locations at which the user can attack unhindered for an extended period of time. Locations like that in WvW are incredibly obvious. While a zerg might be able to speed build a load of carts in the field and use them as artillery (which in theory is an interesting play which might require a bit of forethought), again arrow cart range and AoE size will carry them to effectiveness rather than “positioning.” Besides, a bunch of field carts would probably be overrun by another blob bathed in the standard protection, stability and passively regenerating health ticks.”

True, arrow carts Do have a large AoE, but as you said the key is to find a place where “the user can attack unhindered for an extended amount of time”. Which would strongly suggest that there is an optimal, and conversly, a sub-optimal, place in which arrow carts can be placed. Which means that the positioning of an arrow cart does in fact matter. One also has to consider Line of Sight when placing arrow carts and the like. Even with a large AoE, there are some places it just can’t shoot, due to not being in line of sight.

Erasmus:
continued….

PvP:
“That’s actually the funniest one: “positioning” matters in the game-mode where “good positioning” is already defined for the players by little circle markers on the map. Even then, once a player takes up “good positioning,” it’s so easily compromised by damage spam and teleports that the game has become entirely choked with stability, invulnerability, vigor, CC and passive/rapid healing to the point at which “compromising someone’s good positioning” is merely just the beginning of the process of whittling through an enemy’s invuln periods while the two (or more) of you stand relatively close together and eat most every attack anyway. Another reminder to everyone that when words like “evade,” “block,” and “invulnerable” pop up on the screen, it doesn’t mean that you smartly evaded them with “good positioning;” it means that you ate them because avoiding damage with “good positioning” alone in GW2 is a moot discussion. It doesn’t happen, which is why everyone has crutches that prolong combat and help people pretend that they’re dragging out a skillful encounter.”

Although the points are clearly marked, it doesn’t do anyone any good to just bunch up in the middle of the circle the whole time. Even newbie PvP players can see this after their first game. There are many cases where is is far more beneficial to position ones self OUTSIDE the circle, and “bomb” it from afar. There are also places where a teleport won’t get to, nor is it easy to “damage spam”. Take the ledge in Temple of The Silent Storm for example. A ranger, or any long range player, up on the ledge can do some serious damage if left unchecked. Of course a person can just run up to the top of the ledge as well, and drive off the attacker, but in doing so, it takes one person out of the circle. With swiftness, they aren’t out of the circle for as long. In HoT, from what I understand there are going to be some maps with choke points, which further emphasize the importance of positioning.

Stacking:
“Actually, stacking is a thing precisely because positioning doesn’t matter. Remember, you’re technically getting hit when you dodge or when a single Guardian aegis tanks a hit for the whole party. It’s because of these mechanics that players are allowed to stand in asinine positions, face into a wall, nestle right inside of enemy attack hit-boxes and still melt targets down without taking any damage (or at least not dying).”

Even though you are technically getting hit, positioning is vital to stacking. If it wasn’t then a group could stack in the center of the room and be fine. But that simply isn’t the case. The reason for stacking is shared boons, and positioning. While stacking in a corner, tightly against a wall, it limits some of the abilities of what an enemy can do. Do you remember the Spider Queen pre-nerf? You could kite her into a corner, and stack and kill her with minimal effort. The reason was, that when she was attacking in the corner, there were some attacks that wouldn’t happen, or have dramatically lessened effect. The whole point of stacking is about positioning. Staying tightly together, to share benefits, and to limit enemy movement and options. It’s something that has been done historically by nearly every army in the world since the dawn of warfare.

Movement:
“The guy who is going to get there faster is the guy who has teleports or scripted movement abilities; not swiftness. If we’re talking about PvP roll-outs, the whole team is going to collectively stack some level of swiftness at the start of the game. Once those people with swiftness reach a designated combat zone, movement slows down into irrelevancy beyond twitchy teleports (which isn’t even really player movement since the server is the one moving the avatar at that point).”

What do you mean by “scripted movement abilities”?

Linken.6345:

but if [swiftness] does nothing in your oppinion why should they merge it into base line just remove it, wouldent that be a far easier solution?

Swiftness does have a purpose. It’s purpose, however, is easily dismissed in exchange for outright more optimal abilities in many situations. When a supposed key aspect of game-play can be summed up in most situations as a convenience that a player would rather have but could easily replace or get along without entirely, is it worth keeping in the game?

SlyDevil.3952:

Didn’t anet cite people moving too fast across maps as the reason for nerfing movement skills?

Yes, but that’s the word of anet. Are we going to abide by the word of the team with the track record of shallow, homogenized, off-kilter balance and combat design that comprises all levels of GW2 since its launch?

Testudo.4620:

why am i physically able to run? shouldn’t my kitteny body just take me places quicker with less effort

That’s why you just run thief. They don’t really move manually at all while in combat; it’s just the server re-positioning them at the press of a button. Engagement and escape are on the same sort of level for guardian, elementalist and mesmer as well. It’s all effortless and it’s faster than swiftness. Problem solved.

I agree with OP. In combat speed is all about skill effects/dodge speed etc. Though I see no reason why out of combat speeds can’t be increased to 133% as standard. If they did that then there really would be no point to swiftness. So really it is just for player convenience getting A-B; shouldn’t getting to somewhere fun be more of a priority for game design?

phys.7689:

if swiftness required no investment and doesnt matter, you would not have created this thread.

you real motivation is, swiftness feels mandatory.
and base speed feels low.

this right here was basically /thread.

swiftness vs no swiftness getting around is a big deal.
swiftness vs no swiftness in combat that involves kiting is a big deal.

swiftness feels mandatory for a lot of people because it is such an improvement over not having it.

there is always an opportunity cost to get it. if you use a signet or trait you are down a utility slot. if you use runes you just lost out on all the other really great runesets. if you use a warhorn, you likely are missing out a weapon “that would be better if i already had swiftness.”

IMO, swiftness should be party only. Sharing it with anyone near you in the zerg is silly and devalues the people who bring it with high uptime. build groups and build communities, anet!

Swiftness exists to make most concepts for mounts blatant power creep . It exists to acknowledge that relative overland speed is a huge advantage and should carry similarly huge opportunity costs.

Raven.9603:

you real motivation is, swiftness feels mandatory.

As I’ve said, it feels/postures itself as mandatory primarily in areas like overworld PvE and WvW: the former in which investing heavily into swiftness won’t compromise your ability to anything due to how trivial combat is; and the latter providing a huge influx of players to stack swiftness onto each other in a blob which removes the issue of having to personally spec into permanent swiftness.

Raven.9603:

and base speed feels low.

Well, it is. WASD at any speed is critically slow compared to how fast damage travels.

Raven.9603:

this right here was basically /thread.
swiftness vs no swiftness getting around is a big deal.

As I’ve said before probably a dozen times already, it’s a big deal in places that don’t punish players whatsoever for taking “non-meta” gear/trait choices just for the sake of going faster.

Raven.9603:

swiftness vs no swiftness in combat that involves kiting is a big deal.

Again, you’re actually wrong here because of how invulnerability periods (blocks, evades, actual “invulnerability”) dominate damage mitigation while in combat; actual WASD movement at any speed (especially the ultimately pittance boost one gets from swiftness) doesn’t save a player from ranged damage and instantaneous teleports, nor does it help them re-position quickly in the case that their “good positioning” has been compromised.

Raven.9603:

there is always an opportunity cost to get it. if you use a signet or trait you are down a utility slot. if you use runes you just lost out on all the other really great runesets. if you use a warhorn, you likely are missing out a weapon “that would be better if i already had swiftness.”

PEOPLE. DON’T. READ.
The opportunity cost is moot in the many cases in which players “pay” to have a speed boost. Swiftness either comes for free, or it’s taken because the mode in which the player stacks the swiftness doesn’t care that the player is running non-meta sets.

Two situations:

• The mode is easy enough that the player will still roll through the content even after sacrificing an off-hand, utility and/or rune set in order to move faster all of the time (overworld PvE; dungeons; fractals)
• The mode has enough players that a group will be able to bathe itself in sufficient swiftness to get them from where they are to where they need to go at all times (PvP going from spawn to any point from the match outset; WvW blobs)

In any other case where a player would have the opportunity to sacrifice swiftness for something, that player would just do without it because swiftness is ultimately worthless when compared to any other option he/she could take within the context of any action other than running around an overworld (not that there are that many unique actions to take in GW2, but they are all astronomically better than “go 33% faster” when it comes to combat).

Raven.9603:

IMO, swiftness should be party only. Sharing it with anyone near you in the zerg is silly and devalues the people who bring it with high uptime. build groups and build communities, anet!

Or swiftness could fold itself into base player speed, and groups would just form up naturally anyway—and this time without the asinine and irrelevant worry of “Will I lose out on the optimal use of this (potentially AoE) swiftness that I’m casting primarily on myself anyway to a guy who is already under the effects of his/her own active duration?! Oh no!”

Erasmus.1624:

PEOPLE. DON’T. READ.

No, they just disagree with you.

Why swiftness exists? Well, I don’t know. Why sprint button exists? Or why boost button exists?

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Why swiftness exists? Well, I don’t know. Why sprint button exists? Or why boost button exists?

Yes, but again, those things are either very temporary or they are made (relativley) permanent in exchange for something like less total health, less outgoing damage or one of a very, very finite number of upgrade slots in order that the base speed boost for the player promotes a unique play-style which revolves around its very real trade-offs. GW2 does not follow this trend and swiftness is left out in the cold as a mere convenience rather than anything that defines or impacts combat or skill usage (especially now that anet homogenized movement skills).

Blaine Tog.8304:

Erasmus.1624:

PEOPLE. DON’T. READ.

No, they just disagree with you.

Maybe they do, but I’ve so far seen no reason to consider their points against mine except for that one guy who mentioned how swiftness is technically useful in combat as a “cover boon” for blatantly more overpowered boons like stability, might, fury—well, any other boon—in the case that someone on the other team has some buttons and/or passives which strip/convert boons. Technically, that is a valid point for the importance of swiftness in combat, but it’s still a little anemic in terms of proving that swiftness has a distinct and necessary role in the game when considering the points that I’ve raised about it’s lack of true opportunity cost and it’s relative uselessness in combat (especially in the opening 10-15 seconds or so of any engagement).

Erasmus.1624:

Kheo.2504:

As for you feeling that movement is too slow in general, you can just spec yourself to have the +25% speed at all times and give up your 6 rune slots/1 ability slot.

It’s never been a matter of “It’s too hard to be permanently faster than base movement speed.” The question was “Why waste traits, runes and skills on something that is ultimately superfluous?”

If you thought to make up a thread just to ask for a speed buff, then apparently it’s not superfluous to you. And the fact that people do waste their rune slots, traits, skills and sometimes even weapons to get swiftness/running speed seems to imply it is important to them as well.

But if you think that sacrificing options to have swiftness is really a waste, then just don’t use it. It’s superfluous anyway, so why should you care?

I’d like to add that in pve, having that 25% speed boost or 33% speed boost is invaluable if you can inflict cripple and damage at range. You can literally just keep moving and bosses take forever to get to you, when they do, you just dodge roll through them and you can create another nice big gap while they do their attack animation in the wrong direction.

If everyone moved faster, monsters would need a speed buff or pve would become even easier. This means less time to react and all the time cast skills would become less viable as a result.

Being faster isnt just a useful thing out of combat, it really makes a difference IN combat as well, if you know how to use it and that’s the whole point. It’s a choice, sacrifice extra damage or a cool effect to gain a movement boost that can benefit you in combat. It’s a side benefit that you get around the world faster for some people.

Because speed is also beneficial outside combat, doesn’t mean we should just give it to everyone and remove the choice.

(sorry lots of edits)

Erasmus.1624:

Maybe they do, but I’ve so far seen no reason to consider their points against mine except for that one guy who mentioned how swiftness is technically useful in combat as a “cover boon” for blatantly more overpowered boons like stability, might, fury—well, any other boon—in the case that someone on the other team has some buttons and/or passives which strip/convert boons.

Maybe if you weren’t constantly ragemonstering all over the thread you might be able to understand why everyone else is more-or-less happy with Swiftness: because the speed boost feels good, and ultimately that’s all that matters in a game.

Seriously dude, I don’t get the anger. It’s just a game mechanic. Not even a particularly important one. And even if we should get it for free, the injustice as it stands isn’t particularly enormous, either, since the cost to acquire it is relatively low. It’s not like ANet is forcing us to spend half our builds just to autoattack or committing actual genocide or anything.

Equilibriator.8741:

I’d like to add that in pve, having that 25% speed boost or 33% speed boost is invaluable

Yes, but that wasn’t the point of the thread. The point of the thread was to raise questions about the existence of swiftness exactly because acquiring it (or just a flat +25% speed boost) is so easy when anyone wants it.

Equilibriator.8741:

If everyone moved faster, monsters would need a speed buff or pve would become even easier.

Alright. Why not?

Equilibriator.8741:

This means less time to react and all the time cast skills would become less viable as a result.

As I’ve said before, nobody re-positions with swiftness if they really need to move quickly. Instead, they’ll just use a teleport. This won’t change even if everyone is suddenly moving at 133% base speed.

Equilibriator.8741:

Being faster isnt just a useful thing out of combat, it really makes a difference IN combat as well, if you know how to use it and that’s the whole point.

Like I’ve said before, swiftness’ in-combat usage is very limited and almost at the level of fluke should it ever actually be effective at avoiding damage. Teleports and ranged damage will outrun any player with swiftness any day.

Equilibriator.8741:

It’s a choice, sacrifice extra damage or a cool effect to gain a movement boost.

Again, the reality is that it’s hardly a choice at all. It’s either:

• Take swiftness because nothing is going to stop you from autoattacking it to death.
  or
• Take invulnerability and instant damage/CC because I don’t need to move when I have ranged attacks/teleports and someone else on my team is probably going to give everyone enough swiftness to move to where we need to be so we can start pressing our buttons.

Erasmus.1624:

Equilibriator.8741:

I’d like to add that in pve, having that 25% speed boost or 33% speed boost is invaluable

Yes, but that wasn’t the point of the thread. The point of the thread was to raise questions about the existence of swiftness exactly because acquiring it (or just a flat +25% speed boost) is so easy when anyone wants it.

Equilibriator.8741:

If everyone moved faster, monsters would need a speed buff or pve would become even easier.

Alright. Why not?

Equilibriator.8741:

This means less time to react and all the time cast skills would become less viable as a result.

As I’ve said before, nobody re-positions with swiftness if they really need to move quickly. Instead, they’ll just use a teleport. This won’t change even if everyone is suddenly moving at 133% base speed.

Equilibriator.8741:

Being faster isnt just a useful thing out of combat, it really makes a difference IN combat as well, if you know how to use it and that’s the whole point.

Like I’ve said before, swiftness’ in-combat usage is very limited and almost at the level of fluke should it ever actually be effective at avoiding damage. Teleports and ranged damage will outrun any player with swiftness any day.

Equilibriator.8741:

It’s a choice, sacrifice extra damage or a cool effect to gain a movement boost.

Again, the reality is that it’s hardly a choice at all. It’s either:

• Take swiftness because nothing is going to stop you from autoattacking it to death.
  or
• Take invulnerability and instant damage/CC because I don’t need to move when I have ranged attacks/teleports and someone else on my team is probably going to give everyone enough swiftness to move to where we need to be so we can start pressing our buttons.

1) not really, for some classes its a real choice or a defining part of your role. you have to pick either a skill or a weapon or a rune set to achieve it, sacrificing other skills/weapon/rune set. This is a key component in this game, forcing hard choices to choose your build.

2) because when monsters move faster people have less time to react to everything, less time to cleanse themself before the next smash, less time to recover endurance to dodge away. Casting that 3 second interuptable skill now is a hell of a lot harder in straight combat because that prick monster is now faster.

3)first, i do. second, you dont speak for everyone and their play styles. proof: i do. as a warrior i have 3 on greatsword, 5 on greatsword and dodge rolls. They run out quickly in straight combat with a powerful enemy and with a speed boost, i can move and shoot with my rifle, casting cripple and slowing them down, at the same time. If the game removed swiftness and buffed everyone and monsters, my build would become unviable as the core component of my gameplay: staying away from the monster and only attacking melee in bursts, wouldnt work anymore.

4)swiftness in combat is limited, sure. but so is casting a horror after 30 kills. You dont see that getting implemented on every character just because it is limited (another rune set as im sure you are aware). If we never had swiftness in the first place, and we just only ever had basic speed as top speed, we would be used to it and would not care. because there is a speed boost we feel like it needs to be on every character, when it doesnt.

5) the same is true for any boons. why take might skills when the team you are with might cast might, why take retaliation, etc. The point is, you take what you cant live without, and just enjoy when you have a team covering the rest.

It’s not effortless to maintain without slotting it, so a cost is involved. Player speed is not 133% all the time because using swiftness correctly rewards good play.

Not everyone does WvW in a zerg.

Every non-zergling seriously considers bringing their own swiftness, their own condi clears, their own sufficient amount of immunities and healing, because they don’t intend to have a bunch of mindless blobbers cleansing them and giving them swiftness and dropping water fields for them all the time.

Not having high swiftness and mobility as a roamer is a huge, huge sacrifice to make. It is exponentially easier to kite melee classes in a fight when you have swiftness and they dont. It is exponentially more difficult to avoid a bad confrontation in WvW without both mobility and swiftness.

You talk about gap closers and teleports and ranged weapons like they are in unlimited supply. When I fight a guardian, he has 1-2 moves to close the gap, and I have moves that can re-open, and once we burn through those swiftness is very important. You think the 38sec + on his teleport cd are nothing? And not everyone has effective ranged weapons. That guardians scepter and staff are garbage. The warrior chasing me would much rather not be trying to out-longbow a ranger with his shotty longbow. The thief trying to get behind me would have an easier time connecting his BS in between steal cd’s if I didnt have swiftness. The zerg chasing me wouldn’t give up after 2 GS swoops if I didnt have swiftness…

Movement speed absolutely matters in PvP: If your role is decapper, or to float between home and mid, swiftness saves seconds and seconds is all it takes to get that decap.

In openworld PvE, not having swiftness absolutely matters. No you dont need to have it, but no one is going to give it to you. Its a quality of life issue. Non-fractal dungeons are the only place other than the zerg where swiftness lacks relevance or sacrifice, and increasing player speed there only makes the horrible tactic of skipping much more prevalent.

Erasmus.1624:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Erasmus.1624:

PEOPLE. DON’T. READ.

No, they just disagree with you.

Maybe they do, but I’ve so far seen no reason to consider their points against mine except for that one guy who mentioned how swiftness is technically useful in combat as a “cover boon” for blatantly more overpowered boons like stability, might, fury—well, any other boon—in the case that someone on the other team has some buttons and/or passives which strip/convert boons.

Your inability to consider more reasons than “cover boon” valid doesn’t actually mean those other reasons are invalid. It just means you refuse to accept them.

Do you see anyone agreeing with you? It’s possible you are just the only one whose right. Or maybe the other reasons are better than you are giving them credit for.

Base forward movement speed incombat is 210 u/s. Well of suffering has radius of 240 and pulses per second. Swiftness has a very good chance of negating a damage pulse over base combat speed.

Watch any liadri fight to establish that at least some projectiles are able to be avoided using WASD movment. Swiftness will directly affect the range at which you are able to avoid some projectiles.

There is no notification when you successfully avoid an attack using swiftness. So just because I get an evade or block on one attack does not mean swiftness did not help avoid other attacks.

Swiftness is a balance knob in combat and it does have value. You can’t replace it with scripted movement skills, without creating huge balance issues. It would be the same as trying to replace all cripples with chill. Chill is a much better movement debuff, that doesn’t mean cripple has no value or isn’t a more balanced option in some cases.