Why does swiftness exist?
Swiftness exists because speccing for it involves opportunity costs and trade-offs — just like every other buff in the game. Some buffs, of course, are more desirable than others.
When you develop your own game, you can decide how movement speed works.
Be happy that we even move faster out of combat at all, since we could have been stuck at “combat speed” at all times….
I personally enjoy the speed increase that allows us to get around faster when not in combat.
You are just seeing the glass as half empty instead of half full.
Swiftness exists because speccing for it involves opportunity costs and trade-offs — just like every other buff in the game.
There is hardly any opportunity cost in GW2, man. Important actions to take in combat are “be invulnerable,” “deal damage,” “CC,” “move quickly/instantly with impunity,” and “self heal.” Any “good” build will comfortably slot all five and all five will be easy to activate or apply (dodge is even a form of the first one, and that’s available to all classes). Moving 33% faster doesn’t really help negate damage, juke a target, or hold a position in combat vs anyone with any sort of movement or teleport abilities (of which there are loads).
You also don’t mention how easy it is to get buffs in general. When are there not players running around with 20+ might, perma swiftness, 10+ seconds of retal, 50% uptime on vigor, etc. Protection and regeneration are alright and plenty common as well, but regen isn’t as good as just healing passively/pressing a heal button without a boon, and prot can’t compete with just being outright invulnerable via blocks, dodge, evades, and the actual thing labeled “invulnerability.”
Some buffs, of course, are more desirable than others.
Yes, but I’ve said how swiftness is perfectly worthless on many levels. Why not just cut the fat? Do you not want to go faster? You’re probably already effortlessly maintaining swiftness at the moment anyway. Does its existence even matter if you can just have it for free at all times anyway?
When you develop your own game, you can decide how movement speed works.
Why is this relevant?
Be happy that we even move faster out of combat at all, since we could have been stuck at “combat speed” at all times….
Yes, but we aren’t. Why is this a relevant comment?
I personally enjoy the speed increase that allows us to get around faster when not in combat.
So you would rather just press 1-4 buttons every 10-30 seconds in order to apply an otherwise irrelevant tack-on buff rather than explore at max speed at all times and only press buttons when actually doing something?
I’m happy with the movement speed. The only place it’s really a burden is WvW, as you run back to an objective on the other side of the map. Otherwise, you really don’t have to travel long enough for the swiftness to make a difference or not.
As for you feeling that movement is too slow in general, you can just spec yourself to have the +25% speed at all times and give up your 6 rune slots/1 ability slot.
Life doesn’t give me lemons anymore, not after what happened last time.
As for you feeling that movement is too slow in general, you can just spec yourself to have the +25% speed at all times and give up your 6 rune slots/1 ability slot.
It’s never been a matter of “It’s too hard to be permanently faster than base movement speed.” The question was “Why waste traits, runes and skills on something that is ultimately superfluous?” I already made a point about how this game has no real sense of opportunity cost.
I would rather they just make 25% a base thing. Like make it an achievement in WvW so once I obtain it, I’ll get perm 25% base speed in WvW. I’m fine with swiftness being a thing, a boon, a buff people cast. But the current base speed is just too slow for WvW.
When you develop your own game, you can decide how movement speed works.
Why is this relevant?
Do I really have to elaborate?
I was simply pointing out how trivial this forum topic is.
The developers surely don’t drop what they are doing to address every single frivolous complaint about game mechanics, especially the ones that are fine as they currently are.
…and I’m not sure what sort of discussion you were attempting to start here, but the discussion value pretty much boils down to nil.
Movement, in and out of combat, are mechanics that make this game what it is.
When you create your own game, you can decide how you personally want the movement to work, but you do not dictate what Guild Wars 2 should and should not be.
You asked a question as to why things are the way they are…
…and the answer is because the GW2 developers decided they wanted them to be that way.
Be happy that we even move faster out of combat at all, since we could have been stuck at “combat speed” at all times….
Yes, but we aren’t. Why is this a relevant comment?
Why did you make this thread?
Were you not attempting to initiate some sort of discussion?
Simply because you are not getting the feedback you desire does not mean the responses are irrelevant.
I simply wanted to point out that your logic is flawed.
You want to take off the bottom layer on the totem pole…. and I’m letting you know that having innate swiftness while out of combat is something you are taking for granted… and if we did not have this increase while ooc, you wouldn’t even know what “combat speed” was to compare it with.
Simply because you feel slow, does not mean you are slow…. since “slow” is completely relative, and is a description that can only be used when you have a reference…
I personally enjoy the speed increase that allows us to get around faster when not in combat.
So you would rather just press 1-4 buttons every 10-30 seconds in order to apply an otherwise irrelevant tack-on buff rather than explore at max speed at all times and only press buttons when actually doing something?
Would you rather have copper put directly into your inventory instead of getting trash items to sell to a vendor?
Sure…. but it has its place.
If you remove everything that is inconvenient, then you aren’t even playing a game anymore.
Swiftness and super speed have their places in the status effects kingdom, and your suggested alteration literally changes nothing other than effectively removing what we now know as super speed from the game due to an unnecessary “power creep” in movement speed.
I happen to think the current system is just fine… button presses and all.
I was simply pointing out how trivial this forum topic is.
The only trivial idea here is the inclusion of swiftness in GW2.
You asked a question as to why things are the way they are…
…and the answer is because the GW2 developers decided they wanted them to be that way.
That’s not a good enough answer when I’ve already raised points which critically undermine the existence of swiftness at all. This isn’t a discussion about universal constants. Swiftness technically doesn’t have to exist. It happens to, yes, and again yes, primarily by the will of anet, but that doesn’t mean that it’s justified solely in that.
Why did you make this thread?
Were you not attempting to initiate some sort of discussion?Simply because you are not getting the feedback you desire does not mean the responses are irrelevant.
I am getting feedback, but you aren’t actually addressing any of my points.
You want to take off the bottom layer on the totem pole…. and I’m letting you know that having innate swiftness while out of combat is something you are taking for granted…
Yes, that was the entire point: the whole game takes it for granted because it might as well be granted at all times with how effortless it is to maintain.
and if we did not have this increase while ooc, you wouldn’t even know what “combat speed” was to compare it with.
Sure we would. Combat speed still drastically slows players’ forward movement.
Simply because you feel slow, does not mean you are slow…. since “slow” is completely relative, and is a description that can only be used when you have a reference…
This is actually a fair point, but I did actually give one particular reference: the comparison between how fast a player can move and how fast damage travels in this game. Frankly, there is no comparison. If a game’s only homogenized movement speed boost isn’t good for anything but moving from point A to point B while out of combat and it’s easy to get such a boost and maintain it on every class, why have it? Why not just make it baseline? It’s practically already baseline for every class at this point anyway.
Would you rather have copper put directly into your inventory instead of getting trash items to sell to a vendor?
If you’re referring to the trophy items which have no purpose whatsoever but to be sold, then yes, that makes sense. Flavor shouldn’t be the only defining reason behind a game mechanic. It just becomes fluff that takes up space after a while. While there is a certain leeway on this when it comes to atmospheric design, combat mechanics and resources should be very well kept within the range of user practicality.
Swiftness and super speed have their places in the status effects kingdom,
Super speed does. I mentioned that. Swiftness doesn’t really have a purpose.
unnecessary “power creep” in movement speed.
But EVERYONE IS ALREADY BATHED IN SWIFTNESS AT ALL TIMES. It isn’t powercreep when it’s actually the reality of the system in place.
I happen to think
That isn’t an argument.
(edited by Erasmus.1624)
Yes, but I’ve said how swiftness is perfectly worthless on many levels. Why not just cut the fat? Do you not want to go faster? You’re probably already effortlessly maintaining swiftness at the moment anyway. Does its existence even matter if you can just have it for free at all times anyway?
If players just have swiftness “for free at all times anyway,” the only difference is whether you’re pressing a button or not, which seems to be your point. However, that isn’t the case. I generally have a 25% movement buff on my characters, because I like to go faster. I am having to give up other things, whether that be a slot skill or a trait or even an entire trait line.
You’re also ignoring the psychological factor. If 133% was baseline and speed options were removed, we’d see complaints about the lack of options to go faster. Guaranteed.
Would I like to go faster? Sure, I’d like super-speed like the Flash or Quicksilver (especially with time slow like in Days of Future Past). I’m not sure that would be appropriate for the genre, though, and I’m especially not sure Anet would want me to have it.
Swiftness exists because speccing for it involves opportunity costs and trade-offs — just like every other buff in the game.
There is hardly any opportunity cost in GW2, man. Important actions to take in combat are “be invulnerable,” “deal damage,” “CC,” “move quickly/instantly with impunity,” and “self heal.” Any “good” build will comfortably slot all five and all five will be easy to activate or apply (dodge is even a form of the first one, and that’s available to all classes). Moving 33% faster doesn’t really help negate damage, juke a target, or hold a position in combat vs anyone with any sort of movement or teleport abilities (of which there are loads).
You also don’t mention how easy it is to get buffs in general. When are there not players running around with 20+ might, perma swiftness, 10+ seconds of retal, 50% uptime on vigor, etc. Protection and regeneration are alright and plenty common as well, but regen isn’t as good as just healing passively/pressing a heal button without a boon, and prot can’t compete with just being outright invulnerable via blocks, dodge, evades, and the actual thing labeled “invulnerability.”
Some buffs, of course, are more desirable than others.
Yes, but I’ve said how swiftness is perfectly worthless on many levels. Why not just cut the fat? Do you not want to go faster? You’re probably already effortlessly maintaining swiftness at the moment anyway. Does its existence even matter if you can just have it for free at all times anyway?
In PvP against a boon stripping build, I find it valuable to have swiftness to get from point to point and to have swiftness stripped from me rather than my stability or might stacks
I mostly play for the new Free-For-All arena in PvP lobby.
….. And Elementalist.
….. And Elementalist.
However, that isn’t the case. I generally have a 25% movement buff on my characters, because I like to go faster. I am having to give up other things, whether that be a slot skill or a trait or even an entire trait line.
I already mentioned traits and runes. On my necromancer, I too have a +25% movement bonus at all times, and that trait selection was a very easy choice to make. My point has always been that not only is swiftness unnecessary, but also tangentially there is the consequence of how so many traits and runes would be culled and freed up because no one would have to waste buttons or passives on “move just slightly faster” anymore.
You’re also ignoring the psychological factor. If 133% was baseline and speed options were removed, we’d see complaints about the lack of options to go faster. Guaranteed.
What the scenario becomes is that everyone moves fast out of combat, and then due to combat speed, “super speed” becomes a more common option (one that is also completely in control of the player) for players looking to re-position, give chase, or outrun a few attacks for just a quick couple of seconds. In order to give super speed just a little more “oomph” if necessary and really give it some contrast to regular movement speed, it might be worthwhile to increase the player speed cap to 150%. There are plenty of other creatures in the game that move faster than players under the effects of swiftness, so the concept is possible. However, given that combat speed drags down a player’s movement speed by a solid 29%, such a cap increase might not be terribly necessary.
In PvP against a boon stripping build, I find it valuable to have swiftness to get from point to point and to have swiftness stripped from me rather than my stability or might stacks
I think that this thread is only helping my argument when “It’s a cover boon for more overpowered boons” is one of the best arguments I’ve seen so far. Also, of course everyone wants swiftness for walking from point to point. I already said that.
You’re also ignoring the psychological factor. If 133% was baseline and speed options were removed, we’d see complaints about the lack of options to go faster. Guaranteed.
What the scenario becomes is that everyone moves fast out of combat, and then due to combat speed, “super speed” becomes a more common option (one that is also completely in control of the player) for players looking to re-position, give chase, or outrun a few attacks for just a quick couple of seconds. In order to give super speed just a little more “oomph” if necessary and really give it some contrast to regular movement speed, it might be worthwhile to increase the player speed cap to 150%. There are plenty of other creatures in the game that move faster than players under the effects of swiftness, so the concept is possible. However, given that combat speed drags down a player’s movement speed by a solid 29%, such a cap increase might not be terribly necessary.
You’ve missed Indigo’s point.
If you make the current 133% speed the new 100%, players will ask for a new 133% speed. Because they want the ability to be able to spec to be able to run faster than someone else.
Then players like you will go: it’s so easy to get the boons and everyone has access to ways to do it so we might as well make the “new 133%” the base speed.
Then players will ask for them to go faster. And so on and so forth.
That was Indigo’s point. That it will just create a vicious cycle.
And as an fyi, my Guardian doesn’t run with anything that boosts her speed out of combat. She moves fast enough without it. Neither does my warrior nor my ranger
My ele has swapping to air and some skills only because the weapon has the ability and the trait gives might and regen when swapping to fire and water respectively. My mesmer only has it because I like the skill that gives me random boons, it just always gives swiftness on top of the random boon.
Why? Same reason +- 40% food still exist. Someone at Anet is lacking a sense of proportions, so its still in the game.
If swiftness only increased your speed by say… 10%… it wouldnt be a problem. You could easily raise base speed by 20%.
Swiftness is not “effortless to maintain” as you make it out to be. Unless you’re doing pure exploration and nothing else, I doubt you would have your build set up to grant perma-swiftness.
As you said earlier, there are 5 desirable things in a build: damage, CC, mobility, a heal, and a way to avoid damage
As an example, let’s use a Ranger. To gain perma-swiftness on a Ranger, you would need Warhorn offhand and the trait that grants swiftness when using shouts. To get permanent swiftness, you would need at least 3 shouts in your build, along with warhorn. This takes away 5 ability slots that you would normally use to meet your ideal 5 functions.
So how is this “zero opportunity cost” as you described it earlier? The Ranger gives up their ability to use longbow and greatsword, powerful dps weapons. They can’t use Torch or Dagger, ideal for Condition builds. No traps, no survival builds, no spirits. All to maintain perma-swiftness.
Maybe you’re used to playing Elementalist, which is the only one I can see it being effortless on as you have access to TWENTY weapon skills to cover your 5 ideal functions, but other than that, there is opportunity cost EVERYWHERE.
Life doesn’t give me lemons anymore, not after what happened last time.
You’ve missed Indigo’s point.
If you make the current 133% speed the new 100%, players will ask for a new 133% speed.
And they won’t get it if anyone has half a mind on the consequences. Speed boosts are temporary for a reason. If someone could move super fast at all times while simultaneously dealing damage and/or being invulnerable, they would be overpowered. Short bursts of super speed taking over the role of swiftness will serve that role in combat since out-of-combat movement speed would just be fast all of the time.
And as an fyi, my Guardian doesn’t run with anything that boosts her speed out of combat. She moves fast enough without it. Neither does my warrior nor my ranger
OK. Opinion noted.
My ele has swapping to air and some skills only because the weapon has the ability and the trait gives might and regen when swapping to fire and water respectively. My mesmer only has it because I like the skill that gives me random boons, it just always gives swiftness on top of the random boon.
More opinions noted. I also mentioned how easy it is to get boons in general.
You’re also ignoring the psychological factor. If 133% was baseline and speed options were removed, we’d see complaints about the lack of options to go faster. Guaranteed.
What the scenario becomes is that everyone moves fast out of combat, and then due to combat speed, “super speed” becomes a more common option (one that is also completely in control of the player) for players looking to re-position, give chase, or outrun a few attacks for just a quick couple of seconds. In order to give super speed just a little more “oomph” if necessary and really give it some contrast to regular movement speed, it might be worthwhile to increase the player speed cap to 150%. There are plenty of other creatures in the game that move faster than players under the effects of swiftness, so the concept is possible. However, given that combat speed drags down a player’s movement speed by a solid 29%, such a cap increase might not be terribly necessary.
You’ve missed Indigo’s point.
If you make the current 133% speed the new 100%, players will ask for a new 133% speed. Because they want the ability to be able to spec to be able to run faster than someone else.
Then players like you will go: it’s so easy to get the boons and everyone has access to ways to do it so we might as well make the “new 133%” the base speed.
Then players will ask for them to go faster. And so on and so forth.
That was Indigo’s point. That it will just create a vicious cycle.
And as an fyi, my Guardian doesn’t run with anything that boosts her speed out of combat. She moves fast enough without it. Neither does my warrior nor my ranger
My ele has swapping to air and some skills only because the weapon has the ability and the trait gives might and regen when swapping to fire and water respectively. My mesmer only has it because I like the skill that gives me random boons, it just always gives swiftness on top of the random boon.
Nailed it, Seera, thanks.
Swiftness is not “effortless to maintain” as you make it out to be.
Pressing a few buttons is very easy.
Unless you’re doing pure exploration and nothing else, I doubt you would have your build set up to grant perma-swiftness.
This is a fair point, and you go into detail about one of the few classes that would really need to sacrifice a lot in order to get permanent swiftness. Even then, however, I already mentioned how the game is choked with +25% movement speed bonuses. Coming up just 8% short of swiftness speed in exchange for a single passive slot or utility button (which almost always isn’t really a trade because signets have passives and actives) is a trade that anyone would take. There is hardly any opportunity cost in that scenario. Moreover, as I have said before, when a player is moving at 125% base movement speed, the actual effects of swiftness are pretty much non-existent. Swiftness (among other boons and some conditions) is effectively bloat.
The reason why it’s “cheaper” to have perma or high uptime on swiftness for some other classes is because their meta weapons just so happen to also provide that. Even so, if there is no easy option for perma swiftness, the alternatives are hardly a real trade-off.
(edited by Erasmus.1624)
Actually, wait, no, Kheo’s point is also mostly invalidated.
The only place where people would really, REALLY want absolutely permanent swiftness would be the PvE overworld. In the PvE overworld, numbers and the general lack of HP sponges compared to instanced areas make it so investing into permanent swiftness is almost not really a drawback. What’s stopping that ranger from bringing warhorn and shouts if the GS autoattack will just gib plenty of enemies effectively enough (so long as the player is at least wearing zerker, but then why wouldn’t that be the case)?
In WvW, the fact that player numbers aren’t balanced by limiting constraints, zergs will always have permanent swiftness. Roaming players will either build to include some swiftness or just opt for a +25% movement speed bonus (which I have already mentioned). PvP maps are small enough that permanent swiftness isn’t necessary given that just using any swiftness skill is enough to carry a player the majority (if not all) of the distance between any two given points. Dungeons can easily be done without an emphasis on swiftness.
Actually, wait, no, Kheo’s point is also mostly invalidated.
The only place where people would really, REALLY want absolutely permanent swiftness would be the PvE overworld. In the PvE overworld, numbers and the general lack of HP sponges compared to instanced areas make it so investing into permanent swiftness is almost not really a drawback. What’s stopping that ranger from bringing warhorn and shouts if the GS autoattack will just gib plenty of enemies effectively enough (so long as the player is at least wearing zerker, but then why wouldn’t that be the case)?
In WvW, the fact that player numbers aren’t balanced by limiting constraints, zergs will always have permanent swiftness. Roaming players will either build to include some swiftness or just opt for a +25% movement speed bonus (which I have already mentioned). PvP maps are small enough that permanent swiftness isn’t necessary given that just using any swiftness skill is enough to carry a player the majority (if not all) of the distance between any two given points. Dungeons can easily be done without an emphasis on swiftness.
You seem to think you can have the cake and eat it aswell, but you cant and you even
answer your question all the time you have to give up a trait that lock you in to certain weapons dual daggers for necro, meaning if you want dagger/warhorn aswell your locked to melee range, if you dont go for a passive signet but then you lose one of the wells you want in said melee range. ( or have to take the speed in deathshroud and lock yourself down to a specific trait line)
Its not effortless to have base 125 on any class you have to sacrifice something else.
Guardians only got 1 weapon and 2 shouts with swiftness locking them down even further, dont get me started on the poor pre hot mesmers.
You seem to think you can have the cake and eat it aswell, but you cant and you even
answer your question all the time you have to give up a trait that lock you in to certain weapons dual daggers for necro, meaning if you want dagger/warhorn aswell your locked to melee range,
Again, the only places in which permanent movement speed increase is extremely desirable are overworld PvE and WvW. WvW is known for zergs and roamers, the latter of which are typically only a few classes anyway. Overworld PvE is so forgiving that one can invest as much as they want into swiftness and still be effective. Dagger provides necro’s optimal DPS, so it’s a perfectly acceptable trait choice. I’ve already explained why perfectly permanent swiftness isn’t necessary in the other modes.
Its not effortless to have base 125 on any class you have to sacrifice something else.
Equipping a trait, rune set, or slotting a signet for a mode which is more than forgiving enough to for it is rather effortless. It’s not only effortless, but the opportunity cost “lost” for equipping that skill over another skill is negligible (especially if you’re going to talk about Necromancers with their only 2 wells which actually deal damage).
Guardians only got 1 weapon and 2 shouts with swiftness locking them down even further
A 50% uptime on swiftness for a single button which also instantly grants AoE aegis is nothing to dismiss. It’s a huge skill.
dont get me started on the poor pre hot mesmers.
I already mentioned how people cried enough before they got their swiftness. Even before, though, it was more than possible to buy centaur runes and move around with the mantra heal for permanent swiftness. This is overworld PvE, man. Even dungeons will forgive someone for running a non-optimal rune set. If a mesmer is going to do something in WvW as a roamer, he’s not going to care because he’s slow and invisible anyway; relying on AI and hoping that his enemy will actually play aggro instead of passive like one always should with this game. If he’s going to do something in WvW as part of a zerg, he passively receives swiftness from the blob.
I happen to think
That isn’t an argument.
Well if you aren’t willing to accept the opinions of others as valid there is literally no reason why anyone should consider yours either.
- Every class in this game has already either had permanent swiftness since launch or complained enough to get it by now. It’s effortless to maintain.
- The game is also already bloated with multiple “Move 25% faster” modifiers for every class (runes, signets, traits), which dilutes the effect of having swiftness on a player even further because of how little it actually increases the player’s base movement speed at that point.
- GW2’s movement speed in and out of combat is already more sluggish than the ice caps; having swiftness doesn’t make the player all that much faster because there isn’t even that much to fundamentally increase. This is not open to anecdotal comparisons like “But if I have swiftness on, I’m noticeably faster than someone who doesn’t have swiftness even in combat! It’s totally noticeable!” Of course you are. You’re moving 33% faster than that guy. However, 133% base movement speed in GW2 is still incredibly slow in general, especially when one considers how fast damage/CC travels in this game.
- If someone really wants to “move” quickly for whatever reason, that person will use a scripted movement ability or a teleport. Not only are those re-positioning abilities not actually real movement (because the server is doing the vast majority of the work for the player in that case), but it also calls into question the point of swiftness at all if it’s only viable gameplay purpose is making a player move just slightly faster from non-combat point A to non-combat point B.
- Players already have loads of other boons to corrupt/steal.
So why does swiftness exist again? Why is player speed not just the current 133% at all times with bursts of “super speed” (such an awful name) being the actual “player movement speed increase buff” in the game? At least a player can actually see a drastic effect on movement speed while under the effects of super speed while in combat (since it’s worthless outside of combat due to the global player movement speed cap).
OP – your suggestion is bad. Swiftness is not permanent and there are quite a few classes with limited access to it.
Movement speed is important – and the fact that swiftness is not as prevalent as you make it sound can be inferred from this simple price:
http://www.gw2spidy.com/item/24691
Do you think this rune is almost 5 gold because of the boon duration or +16 to all stats?
Yeah.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
- Every class in this game has already either had permanent swiftness since launch or complained enough to get it by now. It’s effortless to maintain.
- The game is also already bloated with multiple “Move 25% faster” modifiers for every class (runes, signets, traits), which dilutes the effect of having swiftness on a player even further because of how little it actually increases the player’s base movement speed at that point.
- GW2’s movement speed in and out of combat is already more sluggish than the ice caps; having swiftness doesn’t make the player all that much faster because there isn’t even that much to fundamentally increase. This is not open to anecdotal comparisons like “But if I have swiftness on, I’m noticeably faster than someone who doesn’t have swiftness even in combat! It’s totally noticeable!” Of course you are. You’re moving 33% faster than that guy. However, 133% base movement speed in GW2 is still incredibly slow in general, especially when one considers how fast damage/CC travels in this game.
- If someone really wants to “move” quickly for whatever reason, that person will use a scripted movement ability or a teleport. Not only are those re-positioning abilities not actually real movement (because the server is doing the vast majority of the work for the player in that case), but it also calls into question the point of swiftness at all if it’s only viable gameplay purpose is making a player move just slightly faster from non-combat point A to non-combat point B.
- Players already have loads of other boons to corrupt/steal.
So why does swiftness exist again? Why is player speed not just the current 133% at all times with bursts of “super speed” (such an awful name) being the actual “player movement speed increase buff” in the game? At least a player can actually see a drastic effect on movement speed while under the effects of super speed while in combat (since it’s worthless outside of combat due to the global player movement speed cap).
if swiftness required no investment and doesnt matter, you would not have created this thread.
you real motivation is, swiftness feels mandatory.
and base speed feels low.
Sounds more like OP just wants to move faster without having to “waste” traits slot, runes, sigils on moving faster. They simply do not want to have to make the choice.
Give yourself Swiftness and run away from someone using a melee weapon who doesn’t have Swiftness.
Now try running away without Swiftness from someone using a melee weapon while they have Swiftness.
Swiftness has an impact, you just have deliberately avoided talking about situations where you feel it. You have been misleading or ignorant in your discussion of the boon and its applications.
Not everyone gets permanent Swiftness and you do need to give things up to have it on many classes.
they should get rid of swiftness and make it 133% across the board.
swiftness is like the old mf system, pigeonholes everyone into using it.
Disagree with the OP’s evaluation of in combat swiftness. As others have said kiting melee, line of sighting range, avoiding aoe pulse circles, all effected by swiftness. Swiftness is very much a great defensive boon against some builds. I do not agree that most builds in PvP inherently have perma swiftness or can obtain it without huge sacrifice to the viability of said build.
WvW roaming is another matter, since there is so much land traversal involved. Many builds feel that swiftness or 25% speed increase are of higher priority for roaming around and staying away from zerges that do have 100% out of combat swiftness.
Out of combat movement speed and the boon swiftness, though they do overlap are two separate issues. Even if they gave us all a higher base out of combat speed, that could not be augmented by boons or other sources. I would still value swiftness in combat.
Doctor Ventur
Two wrongs don’t make a right, but three lefts do
Two wrongs don’t make a right, but three lefts do
without swiftness it would take me 33% longer to finish map exploration. over weeks and months this adds up to days of time.
swiftness is there to save time. on occasion it is useful for getting out of a red ring when you are out of endurance.
Smitten Mittens (The Gothic Embrace [Goth], Fort Aspenwood)
One of your premises is wrong, not everyone has a 25%/33% speed boost on at all times…if that was so I wouldn’t be able to out run or catch up to other players(let alone the creatures in PvE)…so you’d first have to make it so that everyone would want to even have that speed boost(not everyone does as I already stated).
I think you have a point, though the indignant tone I’m sensing is probably putting most people on the defensive.
The purpose of movespeed bonuses in combat is to allow players a way to increase their mobility but not to such an extent that blink and dash abilities become obsolete. You are at a disadvantage if you don’t have 25%/33% because once your dashes are on cooldown and your endurance runs out, that little extra bit of movement speed may be the difference between dodging a nasty AoE and getting caught in it. It’s not the biggest advantage in the world, but it’s probably worth half a Major trait. Fancy footwork is particularly important when fighting Mai Trin, for example. I suppose this could be accomplished by Super-Speed, but then that’s another cooldown you need to manage whereas a permanent speed boost gives you some extra baseline mobility to rely on.
The reason out-of-combat movement speed doesn’t include an additional +33% automatically and then simply not stack with other movespeed boosts is… well actually, I can’t think of all that many reasons. It would certainly make playing Guardians and Mesmers feel so much better when moving from location to location. The only reason I can think of to use the current system is so that chasing someone down in WvW is a bit easier or to lessen the disparity between builds without Swiftness while in combat and out of combat, and but that seems very specific.
I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.
Most classes that have permanent or high swiftness uptime have given up damage, defense or both for that boon.
It’s a reasonable tradeoff, and making it baseline would harm the classes that have playstyles that center around kiting.
I’m okay with super speed being more accessible though.
Resident Disgruntled, Coffee-drinking Charr.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
Zarin Mistcloak(THF) Valkyrie Mistblade(WAR) Kossori Mistwalker(REV) Durendal Mistward(GRD)
I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
they should get rid of swiftness and make it 133% across the board.
swiftness is like the old mf system, pigeonholes everyone into using it.
So there should be no skills whatsoever that increases movement speed, ever?
Or you just want base speed to go up, and then on top of that still allow Swiftness so that you can go even faster than that. <—- if we did that then we’d be in the same boat as we are now.
The whole post equates to: I feel base movement speed is too slow…
I’m all for increasing base movement speed. I mean, who the heck wouldn’t be. But I’m very much against removing Swiftness.
I won’t stop because I can’t stop.
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
I disagree too.
I think that the following notion is ludicrous: “Because everybody can easily stack perma-swiftness anyway, perma-swiftness should be standard.”
Like already mentioned, having access to this perma-swiftness has trade-offs.
-Many classes have access to a utility skill that offers it, but that requires taking up a precious utility slot space. This might not mean much in open-world PvE, but when you’re in a tricky dungeon/fractal situation, this might mean the difference between the whole party surviving or dying.
-Some classes have a weapon skill that offers it, for example staff guardian. The payoff here is that the damage output of the skill/weapon overall is balanced around the buffs that it provides. In other words, by using swiftness, you’re losing out on damage. The same can be applied to many of the warhorn skills.
-The same theory is accurate for runes that apply swiftness/swiftness duration and traits that offer swiftness. By choosing them, you are losing out on other beneficial stats.
My other problem is that if +25% swiftness is standard, people will still demand for more once they are used to it.
Ok, let’s make one thing clear. Swiftness is NOT used exclusively in moving around the map. Swiftness has a viable combat use too – getting out of attacks w/o dodging. If we increase the base movement speed, we will have to increase attack speed too. My reaction speed already makes some parts of gw2 tough, I don’t need every boss fight to become 2x harder, thanks.
“My other problem is that if +25% swiftness is standard, people will still demand for more once they are used to it.”
^ this. The cup you are trying to fill has no bottom. You are just going to keep wanting to go faster and faster until you can’t even do JPs anymore because you overshoot everything. Just get used to using waypoints (you’re reducing inflation!) or enjoy the scenery for once.
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Contact me and see if you are eligible for Council of Dusk [Dusk]
Contact me and see if you are eligible for Council of Dusk [Dusk]
you guys dont understand the point hes making, and i kind of agree. in WvW swiftness is required, if you dont have swiftness you better just hide in a blob because youre dead otherwise. Basically EVERYONE who roams or havocs etc will have perma swiftness. So if everyone is basically required to have it in order to fight in WvW, whats the purpose of it anymore?
By having swiftness baseline, it opens up more build variety/weapon variety.
Bi Furious [Fist] YB
you guys dont understand the point hes making, and i kind of agree. in WvW swiftness is required, if you dont have swiftness you better just hide in a blob because youre dead otherwise. Basically EVERYONE who roams or havocs etc will have perma swiftness. So if everyone is basically required to have it in order to fight in WvW, whats the purpose of it anymore?
By having swiftness baseline, it opens up more build variety/weapon variety.
No it do not as othe have already stated people would want a new swiftness making the whole thing moot, maybe best just remove it if you feel its required.
Swiftness exists because speccing for it involves opportunity costs and trade-offs — just like every other buff in the game. Some buffs, of course, are more desirable than others.
This explains it very well. (/thread IMO)
The problem is that people insist on seeing combat as the only component of the game. It is not. Exploration exists, too, and to make an “exploration-focused build” with perma-swiftness IS a trade-off of making a “combat-focused build” with some perma-combat-boon.
Its the same argument with the mount obssesed guys who want 33% speed over the map “while not in combat”. The game tryes to put fighting and travel in a dinamic equilibrium, and do it very well, IMO. The only ones to complain about it is people that see movement through the map as a lost time, and greed to do it faster without having to de-optimize their combat builds.
“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks
I happen to think
That isn’t an argument.
Well if you aren’t willing to accept the opinions of others as valid there is literally no reason why anyone should consider yours either.
I can accept your right to have an opinion, but an opinion isn’t a strong argument. It’s an opinion. I’m talking about how swiftness’ objective role in GW2, not a matter of how I “feel” it’s too slow, or just right, or out of place. I’ve given plenty of points and I’ve gotten little but “No, I think it’s fine,” in return. That’s not a real argument.
The problem is that people insist on seeing combat as the only component of the game. It is not. Exploration exists, too, and to make an “exploration-focused build” with perma-swiftness IS a trade-off of making a “combat-focused build” with some perma-combat-boon.
Yes, but my point is that in places where swiftness matters the most, combat doesn’t; and in places where combat matters the most, swiftness is suddenly mostly irrelevant except maybe as a mere cover boon. At such a point, swiftness may as well just be baseline or not exist at all since there’s nothing to compromise when one invests entirely into one or the other: there actually is no trade-off.
(edited by Erasmus.1624)
Ok, let’s make one thing clear. Swiftness is NOT used exclusively in moving around the map. Swiftness has a viable combat use too – getting out of attacks w/o dodging.
Maybe in PvE when enemies attack with all the vigor and speed of a bed-ridden elderly man. In PvP/WvW, every player’s damage travels fast enough to negate the effectiveness of swiftness as a consistently viable means of actually avoiding damage (since whenever the “evade, block, invuln, etc” tag pops up, it actually means you got hit). The thief class alone should disprove your point about how swiftness is a viable means of avoiding damage, not to mention any other classes or individual skills.
If we increase the base movement speed, we will have to increase attack speed too.
The damage and effects that matter in GW2 are often inflicted instantly and even passively already. It’s impossible to increase “instant.” There’s no way that even a baseline movement speed of what is the current 133% would ever compromise someone’s ability to instantly teleport onto a guy or press something like shatter, phantasms, any scripted movement skill (which are no longer affected by slows), any ranged projectile attack barring maybe elementalist fireball and guardian orb of wrath unless the user was just being dumb and shooting things into a wall or deliberately while out of range.
they should get rid of swiftness and make it 133% across the board.
swiftness is like the old mf system, pigeonholes everyone into using it.
So there should be no skills whatsoever that increases movement speed, ever?
Or you just want base speed to go up, and then on top of that still allow Swiftness so that you can go even faster than that. <—- if we did that then we’d be in the same boat as we are now.
The whole post equates to: I feel base movement speed is too slow…
I’m all for increasing base movement speed. I mean, who the heck wouldn’t be. But I’m very much against removing Swiftness.
I never said that there would be no more movement speed increases. Scripted directional movement abilities like leaps and charges are technically temporary movement speed increase abilities; super speed would still be a thing. I have to ask again: What’s the point of a speed boost’s niche role or effectiveness if it’s permanent? Aren’t speed boosts supposed to be those very temporary clutch things which allow for a single play?
It’s very rare that (in any game) a player or class has the opportunity to permanently increase his/her base speed (especially by a large amount) without it either having some draw-back in order to provide a unique play-style or if the game is entirely vs AI (like a traditional offline RPG) in which case nobody cares because the guy is wailing on NPCs and is perfectly allowed to be as broken as he/she wants.
Super speed will take the role of what swiftness was supposed to be: a short-duration, significant speed boost which can be used to give chase or kite. Swiftness will just become baseline.
I happen to think
That isn’t an argument.
Well if you aren’t willing to accept the opinions of others as valid there is literally no reason why anyone should consider yours either.
I can accept your right to have an opinion, but an opinion isn’t a strong argument. It’s an opinion. I’m talking about how swiftness’ objective role in GW2, not a matter of how I “feel” it’s too slow, or just right, or out of place. I’ve given plenty of points and I’ve gotten little but “No, I think it’s fine,” in return. That’s not a real argument.
And plenty of other people have given valid factual points for why there should not be perma-swiftness without traiting or choosing a skill for it. Just because you don’t agree with them doesn’t make the facts opinions and doesn’t mean they are invalidated.
Otherwise, we can go: your facts are opinions and since they don’t align with ours, they’re invalidated.
You’ve missed Indigo’s point.
If you make the current 133% speed the new 100%, players will ask for a new 133% speed.
And they won’t get it if anyone has half a mind on the consequences. Speed boosts are temporary for a reason. If someone could move super fast at all times while simultaneously dealing damage and/or being invulnerable, they would be overpowered. Short bursts of super speed taking over the role of swiftness will serve that role in combat since out-of-combat movement speed would just be fast all of the time.
And as an fyi, my Guardian doesn’t run with anything that boosts her speed out of combat. She moves fast enough without it. Neither does my warrior nor my ranger
OK. Opinion noted.
My ele has swapping to air and some skills only because the weapon has the ability and the trait gives might and regen when swapping to fire and water respectively. My mesmer only has it because I like the skill that gives me random boons, it just always gives swiftness on top of the random boon.
More opinions noted. I also mentioned how easy it is to get boons in general.
And you’ve still missed Indigo’s point. People in games will always demand to go faster. If left unchecked, people would eventually need “boons” to slow themselves down in order to do jumping puzzles.
Even under your suggestion, people would want more access to the super speed. Then when that is granted, we’re back to where we all now. People going: “super speed is so easy to get and maintain, we might as well make it the new base speed and add in super super speed.”
And it’s not an opinion that my guardian and warrior don’t run with anything to boost their speed. It’s a fact.
My opinion is that we go fast enough considering the waypoints that are everywhere. WvW is spread out because it’s not supposed to be res-wars. It’s supposed to be catastrophic for a group to wipe when defending or attacking. Not to be able to be back in the action in 5 seconds.
Aren’t speed boosts supposed to be those very temporary clutch things which allow for a single play?
I guess the answer to this question is no. Speed boosts are whatever the developers want them to be. If you prefer them to be temporary clutch things to allow for a single play, then I dunno what to say really.
I won’t stop because I can’t stop.
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
i just read the first post….soooo:
for me i think having an option for perma 25% speed would be nice..always in wvw i either need sacrifice a skill which would help me to survive or actually kill someone…or i lose a rune..which is extremly bad..also that i loce to play mesmer on the confusion rune…and there is no way for me to get speed..not even 33% for 2 seconds or something….so many enemies just run away when they notice they gona die..and i sloooowly walk after them…or i want run away myself..and cant catch up (bcs all the others have perma 25% speed..me not)
I guess the answer to this question is no. Speed boosts are whatever the developers want them to be. If you prefer them to be temporary clutch things to allow for a single play, then I dunno what to say really.
Yes, but it makes no sense for the speed boost to be so long and so easy to achieve if one wants them to actually have a defined impact on combat. Movement speed greatly defines one’s combat style and options. Being able to temporarily increase that speed by a substantial amount should provide a player with a small window to make something happen that otherwise might be out of that player’s hands. Swiftness does nothing but tease players with the idea of a speed boost’s importance when, in reality, swiftness’ frequency and ease of application turn it into something that might as well just be a flat baseline attribute of all players. If someone wants swiftness at any given point in time, chances are they will have no real problem getting it.
I happen to think
That isn’t an argument.
Well if you aren’t willing to accept the opinions of others as valid there is literally no reason why anyone should consider yours either.
I can accept your right to have an opinion, but an opinion isn’t a strong argument.
Wait, what? An opinion is an argument. Your belief that swiftness should be removed is an opinion. My belief that the system as it stands is great is an opinion.
Quite high and mighty of you, don’t you think?
Casteless Wind [Guild Wars 2]
The Secksy Monk [Guild Wars 1]
Stormbluff Isle – Storm Slayer Dragons [SDS]
The Secksy Monk [Guild Wars 1]
Stormbluff Isle – Storm Slayer Dragons [SDS]
(edited by Tyloric.7520)