Guild Wars 2

wolfpaq.7354:

Bevillian.1260:

5 Warriors can crush every single dungeon faster than any combo of classes

Uh, this is absolutely incorrect. Quad FGS is the fastest clear which requires 2 elementalists. 1 warrior for the banners and 1 thief to deal the highest damage w/improvisation.

The last class could be a warrior, but you’d probably be better off with a guardian or mesmer for the projectile reflection.

Projectile reflection, by the way, is the highest dps in the game, and warriors don’t have a practical means of providing it for the party.

It is indeed. Many zerk warriors don’t even think about the actual DPS that reflect skills can create, since it’s more like the mob is attacking itself, but reflect is absolutely awesome.

Runs with 5 Guards in various set-ups have been some of the easiest, fastest, most entertaining dungeon runs I’ve ever had the pleasure of being a part of. I prefer that over 5 zerk warriors any day of the week. Heck, I would prefer 2 guards and then any other class make-up over 5 zerk warriors any day of the week. Not because it would be faster, but because it is just more fun and more inclusive, plus you’re pretty much guaranteed not to fail with decent players.

Naetell.3815:

Okay, now think about the megaboss fights like Tequatl and 3H Wurm. If I were to organise a group of 40 players intent on failing the fight by bringing gear that cannot possibly deal the required amount of DPS, and then go to servers where they do these events with the only goal of disrupting their attempts. (If my server can’t do it, neither can yours, kind of thing. Yes, this happens.)

This really isn’t any different than those that intentionally disrupt the champ trains. Or people that intentionally scale up an event and then leave. Or who harass someone for finishing an event that other people wanted to keep from finishing so that they could farm.

Think about the players who boot dungeon sellers from their own instance for no other reason than because they think dungeon selling is ethically wrong.

Is this any different than people booting non-80s because they don’t think you can do a dungeon unless you’re 80? How about not allowed anyone that isn’t completely zerker geared? How about booting someone because they don’t have ‘x’ build or ‘x’ AP?

These players are still playing the game within the borders of the allowed, Anet cannot ban them because it is not a breach of contract. On top of that, they are playing the game the way they want it to.

To boil this argument down to its essence: Do you think it is right to “play as you want” when this takes away the fun from other players? Do you believe it is morally okay to prioritise your fun over theirs?

“Play as you want” does have some boundaries. Generally speaking it usually entails a basic understanding of ‘you don’t have to play with me if you don’t like how I play.’

Now, in instances such as world bosses or the LA knight fights, you really don’t have any control over who joins. At the same time, no one person has the right to dictate how or if you can join in open world content either. So you kind of need to take it with a grain of salt and simply have some tolerance. The majority of the people aren’t going to be there with the intent to make it fail, the majority of the time.

Is it morally right to prioritize my fun over theirs? I don’t know, how and why is their fun more important than mine? They like to speed clear and play the stack and smack dungeon style… ok, I don’t They find a group with their preference, I find a group with mine. Issue solved. We both play how we please, we both feed our desire for fun. His is no more or less important than mine. In many instances there are compromises, but not for all. That’s where tolerance comes into play.

Naetell.3815:

To boil this argument down to its essence: Do you think it is right to “play as you want” when this takes away the fun from other players? Do you believe it is morally okay to prioritize your fun over theirs?

Talk about leading questions.

The argument over “play as you want” versus “play according to the efficiency meta” occurs because different players want different things from the game. Ideally, the two crowds would not mix. Ideally, both would group with the like-minded. However, both groups also have members that want to PuG. Truth is, neither “side” “owns” the LFG system. Players who post no requirements and then kick are no better than those who ignore posted requirements.

As to Teq and Wurm… it was a mistake for ANet to put difficult huge-group content in the persistent world where more of the difficulty comes from controlling who shows up than from the event mechanics.

I think you owe it to your team to not hold them back. Yes reflects are awesome and so we have a mesmer (or guardian). Yes, stability and tasty boons really help, so we can have a guardian as well. But otherwise, there’s little doubt that three warriors can mow down a boss really fast.

It’s not just about “what you want to play”. It’s just bad manners to play a build that is sub optimal knowing full well that you can play something else. After all, why do we run a dungeon? For the loot. Why do we want a certain setup? To get the maximum amount of loot in the minimum amount of time.

That’s the meaning of “fun” – efficiency is fun. Build that are not efficient in a given set up are disrespectful to everyone else don’t you think?

bhagwad.4281:

I think you owe it to your team to not hold them back. Yes reflects are awesome and so we have a mesmer (or guardian). Yes, stability and tasty boons really help, so we can have a guardian as well. But otherwise, there’s little doubt that three warriors can mow down a boss really fast.

It’s not just about “what you want to play”. It’s just bad manners to play a build that is sub optimal knowing full well that you can play something else. After all, why do we run a dungeon? For the loot. Why do we want a certain setup? To get the maximum amount of loot in the minimum amount of time.

That’s the meaning of “fun” – efficiency is fun. Build that are not efficient in a given set up are disrespectful to everyone else don’t you think?

I will argue that efficiency != fun by default. Sometimes some of the best memories are made by just enjoying yourself and screwing up repeatedly with good natured people. I can think of many a FoW, UW, DoA, etc run where we didn’t even complete it, but still had a blast (even after hours of failing terribly. really, it was so terrible it was hilarious).

cuz warrior is the moust borring class in this game !!!!!

Right now the best group for dungeon in general is 2 warrs, 1 guard, 1 mesmer and 1 ele. You can replace ele or mesmer for thief depending of the dungeon. Too many warriors isn’t that great, you will lose too much utilities from other classes.

The highest possible dps team in the game is 3 ele’s, 1 warrior and 1 ranger when your enemy is on a wall. When not on a wall it’s 3 ele’s, 1 warrior and 1 mesmer.

Ranger is included in the absolute highest attainable dps in the game. And only one warrior is included. Build your ranger good and you’re welcome in good speed run groups.

Because it would be boring and groups would suck.

Spiuk.8421:

Because it would be boring and groups would suck.

yea man warrior is just so underpowered worst in everything anet plz make us viable kthxbai

Because not everyone cares about being ‘optimal’ to the point that it is the only deciding factor in how to play. In the course of an MMO’s lifetime most classes get their turns on top and at the bottom of the heap as far as balance go, and if you’re not trying for bleeding edge content then it doesn’t really matter what class you bring. For what I do, for example – solo stuff, guild dungeon runs/fractals, a bit of scouting in WvW, the occasional Tequatl – being a decently geared player with functioning hands and eyeballs is plenty fine to get done what I need.

But if everyone was optimal and played a perfect berserker warrior like me, all my zergy dreams of perfect content runs will come true!

We’d never fail at anything ever because berserker warrior! So, yeah! You all have to listen to me and, like, play a berserker warrior or you’re bad.

You should feel bad for playing any of those dirty lesser classes, and you should uninstall the game right now…. unless you reroll berserker warrior.

Then you can stay. Maybe. Unless you suck. Because optimal gameplay.

-whispers-

Optimal.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Naetell.3815:

To boil this argument down to its essence: Do you think it is right to “play as you want” when this takes away the fun from other players? Do you believe it is morally okay to prioritize your fun over theirs?

Talk about leading questions.

The argument over “play as you want” versus “play according to the efficiency meta” occurs because different players want different things from the game. Ideally, the two crowds would not mix. Ideally, both would group with the like-minded. However, both groups also have members that want to PuG. Truth is, neither “side” “owns” the LFG system. Players who post no requirements and then kick are no better than those who ignore posted requirements.

As to Teq and Wurm… it was a mistake for ANet to put difficult huge-group content in the persistent world where more of the difficulty comes from controlling who shows up than from the event mechanics.

The reason I’m asking is because I see people approaching this issue the wrong way around every day.
Having the choice to play one good build or a myriad of bad ones isn’t a choice at all.
The sheer gap in efficiency between builds shouldn’t be this huge to begin with.

It bugs me to some extent that players would rather advocate playing bad builds instead of rallying to improve those builds so there wouldn’t be a problem in the first place. It reeks of elitism.

Naetell.3815:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Naetell.3815:

To boil this argument down to its essence: Do you think it is right to “play as you want” when this takes away the fun from other players? Do you believe it is morally okay to prioritize your fun over theirs?

Talk about leading questions.

The argument over “play as you want” versus “play according to the efficiency meta” occurs because different players want different things from the game. Ideally, the two crowds would not mix. Ideally, both would group with the like-minded. However, both groups also have members that want to PuG. Truth is, neither “side” “owns” the LFG system. Players who post no requirements and then kick are no better than those who ignore posted requirements.

As to Teq and Wurm… it was a mistake for ANet to put difficult huge-group content in the persistent world where more of the difficulty comes from controlling who shows up than from the event mechanics.

The reason I’m asking is because I see people approaching this issue the wrong way around every day.
Having the choice to play one good build or a myriad of bad ones isn’t a choice at all.
The sheer gap in efficiency between builds shouldn’t be this huge to begin with.

It bugs me to some extent that players would rather advocate playing bad builds instead of rallying to improve those builds so there wouldn’t be a problem in the first place. It reeks of elitism.

Some players who play inefficiently just like certain things about a build. If one’s character idea was to play a guy in heavy armor with a shield, that person is not setting out to hamper groups by using a crappy weapon choice. He’s trying to create an in-game character that mirrors his vision of the character. It’s unfortunate that his choice means he’s kitten, but that’s MMO’s in a nutshell. They all preach variety in build choice, but promote sameness by providing options to min-max.

Improving “bad” builds requires either making them more effective or reducing the effectiveness of the better builds. You’d need to minimize the differences between builds. If you have true parity, then nothing stands out.

I happen to agree with you. There should not be such a range in build strength. I just don’t think we’re likely to see it in this game. Why? Because there are players who want their build tweaking to pay dividends, and because build balance in PvP is not the same as in PvE due to differences in the combat of the two modes.

I think basically in the end not knowing how to play different classes or how to play with different classes in a range of specs is really the hallmark of an incompetent player. Refusing to run with these classes and builds just proves it.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Some players who play inefficiently just like certain things about a build. If one’s character idea was to play a guy in heavy armor with a shield, that person is not setting out to hamper groups by using a crappy weapon choice. He’s trying to create an in-game character that mirrors his vision of the character. It’s unfortunate that his choice means he’s kitten, but that’s MMO’s in a nutshell. They all preach variety in build choice, but promote sameness by providing options to min-max.

Improving “bad” builds requires either making them more effective or reducing the effectiveness of the better builds. You’d need to minimize the differences between builds. If you have true parity, then nothing stands out.

I happen to agree with you. There should not be such a range in build strength. I just don’t think we’re likely to see it in this game. Why? Because there are players who want their build tweaking to pay dividends, and because build balance in PvP is not the same as in PvE due to differences in the combat of the two modes.

Well, the first they’d need to do is split PvE and PvP balancing. It’s impossible to balance both in the same way unless your AI plays like a human player would. (No AI can manage that, unfortunately)

Then we can see some changes.

Purple Miku.7032:

zenleto.6179:

We don’t ALL want be bored kittenless!

If you’re bored on your warrior, perhaps it’s your own fault for not doing anything interesting?

http://www.twitch.tv/purpleishawt/c/3840557
Most people who play on warriors probably don’t melee this guy. Try it. It’s fun as hell, requires fast reflexes, and has high intensity especially with an inept guardian.

http://www.twitch.tv/purpleishawt/c/3840580
Most people who say things like “warriors are boring faceroll classes” or anything of the like are likely having in mind group dungeons. If this isn’t the case for you, then fair enough.Try soloing them. It’s a completely different experience and is much more than just autoattacking with axe mainhand.

@OP
I don’t hate other classes and I have no issue with rangers specifically other than the fact that the vast majority of the ones I’ve encountered were all morons. Realistically, it’s just the idea of people feeling the need to safely range everything from a distance that irritates me. A ranger with a bow is by no means no worse than a mesmer with a greatsword or a guardian using staff for PvE. Sorry you have miserable experiences with pugs but believe it or not so do I, and all I play on is my warrior.

The only class that truly is awful in PvE by comparison to any other class no matter what, is the necromancer. I feel bad for the people that main them… it’s not their fault that their class was designed poorly.

I don’t understand. My Necro absolutely face rolls dungeons, I’ve soloed Arah P3 on it in under an hour. Why is there so much necro hate?
I main thief though not necro.

WilliCalifornia.1837:

Latinkuro.9420:

WilliCalifornia.1837:

Let’s be practical here. This just shows why the WARRIOR needs to be toned down. People defending they aren’t op, they either have a warrior character, or think other class are underpowered.

I main a warrior and let me tell yah a little secret.
the reason warrior is preferred is not because it is the highest damage dealer in the game, it just so happens that warriors have high enough damage that can be pulled off a lot easier than others, and we do not die as easily.

I’m now playing an elementalist and the crap I pull of with my elementalist is a lot crazier than what I can pull with my warrior, I just have to be a bit more aware of my surroundings and chain skills that is all.

From my perspective when I’m on my elementalist I’m grinning and saying to myself, and they call us warriors OP, yeah right !

Your ele is a lot crazier yes, but also lowest hp and armor class in the game. Low tier in pvp too. Compare that to a warrior?. Who is crazier now?

Like I said before, people either defending warrior because they have a warrior character (Your main warrior lols) or think other class are underpowered.

Thief and Guardian have lower health. Just saying

Corpse Flakes.5369:

WilliCalifornia.1837:

Latinkuro.9420:

WilliCalifornia.1837:

Let’s be practical here. This just shows why the WARRIOR needs to be toned down. People defending they aren’t op, they either have a warrior character, or think other class are underpowered.

I main a warrior and let me tell yah a little secret.
the reason warrior is preferred is not because it is the highest damage dealer in the game, it just so happens that warriors have high enough damage that can be pulled off a lot easier than others, and we do not die as easily.

I’m now playing an elementalist and the crap I pull of with my elementalist is a lot crazier than what I can pull with my warrior, I just have to be a bit more aware of my surroundings and chain skills that is all.

From my perspective when I’m on my elementalist I’m grinning and saying to myself, and they call us warriors OP, yeah right !

Your ele is a lot crazier yes, but also lowest hp and armor class in the game. Low tier in pvp too. Compare that to a warrior?. Who is crazier now?

Like I said before, people either defending warrior because they have a warrior character (Your main warrior lols) or think other class are underpowered.

Thief and Guardian have lower health. Just saying

except Guardian is a Heavy Class with loths of mitagation.Thief I agree but atleast they are Medium Armor class with stealth :P. Tbh, look at the ele section, they all complain that their class sucks and need to be buffed. The only class section with no QQ or problems are Warrior and Guardian. Ha I knew thesy would defend their mains hahaha! tone down warriors. I mean which other class have the best Mobility, at the same time high toughness and armor(heavy class), at the same time, Strong lots of condi cleanses, Healing signet, Strong dps at the same time, have bunch of CCs at the same time can provide support with utilities, at the same time easiest class to level in pve, at the same time they have it all?. =]]]

tom.7468:

Spiuk.8421:

Because it would be boring and groups would suck.

yea man warrior is just so underpowered worst in everything anet plz make us viable kthxbai

Sorry but 5 warrior groups are not as good as you seem to think they are.

laharl.8435:

tom.7468:

Spiuk.8421:

Because it would be boring and groups would suck.

yea man warrior is just so underpowered worst in everything anet plz make us viable kthxbai

Sorry but 5 warrior groups are not as good as you seem to think they are.

That’s why they need to be buffed.

It’s true that the gameplay of other professions feel like an archetypical warrior especially when the fights happen in a lot of stack-mode in a dungeon setting.

I understand that many people who play non-warriors perhaps expect a little bit more flavour in the way it’s being done in dungeons.

But seeing that dungeon isn’t the only content in this game, you’ll find that being non-warriors is very apparent in say WvW. I would say the diversity is felt more during smaller group encounters like 5-10 people.

However, I’d also like to say that the burden of proof lies on you for whoever advocates the presence of more than a warrior in a dungeon group for an efficient run.

The only justification for this is probably the low skill cap of being warriors so it’s safer for people with average skills to be warriors instead of anything else.

tom.7468:

laharl.8435:

tom.7468:

Spiuk.8421:

Because it would be boring and groups would suck.

yea man warrior is just so underpowered worst in everything anet plz make us viable kthxbai

Sorry but 5 warrior groups are not as good as you seem to think they are.

That’s why they need to be buffed.

No, just need to diversify the party for optimal results, kind of. Stacking ele’s will result in more dps, but only one warrior is needed.

A 5 War team may be a good/safe bet for PuGs and isn’t horrible, but make no mistake, it is far from optimal.

Edit: good (read: safe)

I wouldn’t pug most dungeons with 5 warriors. I don’t mind doing it with the guild for fun sometimes, but pugs are going to get into trouble on many paths with that setup.

I wanted play as a ranger like in GW1 but I knew they gonna screw him just like in first GW, poor ranger was so good at the beginning and then they nerfed him to the hell and was unplayable beside barrager. Now I have chosen Guardian but I’m leveling other professions too. It’s a pretty safe choice like Warrior, he can damage pretty good and he’s wanted for his support.

I think my warrior is boring & would choose my ranger over my warrior anyday. But I’d choose my ele over all. I’ve only ever been kicked from a party for being anything but what they wanted (which they didn’t list in their description) they kicked my necro right @ the end of arah path 4 to I guess add a friend. We weren’t even in arah for over 3 hours so I didn’t get it.
My sister who mains a mesmer was kicked from a dungeon for not using a GS because she also told them GS was boring- regardless, neither are valid reasons to kick someone.
I play ranger in specific dungeons that people seem to ‘think’ only warriors are capable of doing but my ranger goes all legolas, riding shields as surfboards & outdrinking dwarves thanks to daddy Thranduil for our incredible high tolerance of alcohol… all in one dungeon run- it’s like helm’s deep all over again

Corpse Flakes.5369:

Purple Miku.7032:

zenleto.6179:

We don’t ALL want be bored kittenless!

If you’re bored on your warrior, perhaps it’s your own fault for not doing anything interesting?

http://www.twitch.tv/purpleishawt/c/3840557
Most people who play on warriors probably don’t melee this guy. Try it. It’s fun as hell, requires fast reflexes, and has high intensity especially with an inept guardian.

http://www.twitch.tv/purpleishawt/c/3840580
Most people who say things like “warriors are boring faceroll classes” or anything of the like are likely having in mind group dungeons. If this isn’t the case for you, then fair enough.Try soloing them. It’s a completely different experience and is much more than just autoattacking with axe mainhand.

@OP
I don’t hate other classes and I have no issue with rangers specifically other than the fact that the vast majority of the ones I’ve encountered were all morons. Realistically, it’s just the idea of people feeling the need to safely range everything from a distance that irritates me. A ranger with a bow is by no means no worse than a mesmer with a greatsword or a guardian using staff for PvE. Sorry you have miserable experiences with pugs but believe it or not so do I, and all I play on is my warrior.

The only class that truly is awful in PvE by comparison to any other class no matter what, is the necromancer. I feel bad for the people that main them… it’s not their fault that their class was designed poorly.

I don’t understand. My Necro absolutely face rolls dungeons, I’ve soloed Arah P3 on it in under an hour. Why is there so much necro hate?
I main thief though not necro.

So have I, best so far was ~40 minutes not including the time spent idling to allow people from stream to come at the end. Much room for improvement too. Point is that you’d have been able to do it better with any other class. There isn’t anything that a necro can do that another class can’t do better.

TL:DR

A huge part of PvE players rerolled at least 1 warrior or 1 guardian to be able to access Dungeons.

That is the reason warrior is popular, anet forced almost anyone to play one.

LordByron.8369:

TL:DR

A huge part of PvE players rerolled at least 1 warrior or 1 guardian to be able to access Dungeons.

That is the reason warrior is popular, anet forced almost anyone to play one.

Yeah, no one ever wants eles or mes in dungeons right, oh wait…

because someone needs to set up portal, time warp and reflects/aegis/protection, so the warriors don’t die.

If there were 2 parties in LFG…
GWWW
and
Ele Ele Mesmer Mesmer

Wich would you choose?

Not to mention nobody will ever say no to a warrior…even if there are alread 3 in party…

LordByron.8369:

If there were 2 parties in LFG…
GWWW
and
Ele Ele Mesmer Mesmer

Wich would you choose?

Not to mention nobody will ever say no to a warrior…even if there are alread 3 in party…

I’d opt for party one purely because of the guard, not due to the warriors. I’d also quite happily join party two as it happens.

Not to mention a) I see non warriors getting dungeons all the time and b) non warriors make up a significant part of high end dungeon meta groups.

I’m not really sure how someone who plays an ele (I think you do but am not 100% sure) can say non heavy classes have a difficulty getting dungeons when ele is one of the most in demand dungeon classes going. Necros and rangers in pugs maybe have some issue (although there is a fantastic video up in the dungeon sub forums of 5 MM necros running CoF1).

Yes it probably is easier to get in pug/scrub dungeon groups as a guard or warrior, but trying to insinuate that people are forced into going heavy to get a group for dungeons is just not the reality of the situation.

I was wearing zerk armor on my warrior before it was cool. I’ve had my zerk armor so long that when I bought it a week after release I didn’t even know runes of strength didn’t work (they were fixed eventually).

tom.7468:

laharl.8435:

tom.7468:

Spiuk.8421:

Because it would be boring and groups would suck.

yea man warrior is just so underpowered worst in everything anet plz make us viable kthxbai

Sorry but 5 warrior groups are not as good as you seem to think they are.

That’s why they need to be buffed.

I concur, Warriors need a buff not a nerf.

LordByron.8369:

If there were 2 parties in LFG…
GWWW
and
Ele Ele Mesmer Mesmer

Wich would you choose?

Not to mention nobody will ever say no to a warrior…even if there are alread 3 in party…

Always the group that has a guardian. And that says something about the game right there.

I play one of every class. My main and my most played is an engineer. I also favor my mesmer a lot.

My warrior absolutely bores me to tears in comparison and I only bring him out when I absolutely must quickly dps the everloving crap out of something. Generally my engie’s utilities and maneuverability are more useful.