Guild Wars 2

Why has there never been split Balance between sPvP, WvW and PvE?

It would be so much better for each respective player base, Anet has shown that will do it on one aspect like Revealed debuff having different up times. I believe it would make Anet’s life easier and promote healthier game play throughout all game types, in regards to massive complaints about balance in one game type ruining playability for the classes in the other game types.

Has Anet released an official statement on this subject.

I honestly have no idea, pve & pvp were eventually split in GW1 but in GW2 they took a more WoW approach, which seems to be HELL to balance.

Funny enough WoW is splitting pve & pvp next expansion lol maybe GW2 will make it there as well.

It is probably because it’s more of a work load to have multiple different categories to balance for each skill instead of just all in 1, maybe it needs more teams. Idk. GW1 had such a small team and a ton of crap to balance so that makes me think it’s not really the reason they don’t split everything.

I’m glad they haven’t split it. I love people who think the entire player base only plays one game mode.

I also appreciate that people think pve needs tighter balance. As if we can’t just knock some health off of boss mob, you know cause that’s harder then balancing 1000 interconnecting skills.

Because it’s more expensive.

Godmoney.2048:

I’m glad they haven’t split it. I love people who think the entire player base only plays one game mode.

I also appreciate that people think pve needs tighter balance. As if we can’t just knock some health off of boss mob, you know cause that’s harder then balancing 1000 interconnecting skills.

It wouldn’t be a problem if there was ever a balance to begin with, but it’s been proven that they are unable to balance the game with all game modes interconnect through skills. I know players play multiple game modes and splitting specs doesn’t stop one from playing each game mode.

Also it may cost a little extra investment up front but once it’s in place it will pay for itself in the end by being easier to maintain, and not making players leave due to issues in game related to balance.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Godmoney.2048:

I’m glad they haven’t split it. I love people who think the entire player base only plays one game mode.

I also appreciate that people think pve needs tighter balance. As if we can’t just knock some health off of boss mob, you know cause that’s harder then balancing 1000 interconnecting skills.

It wouldn’t be a problem if there was ever a balance to begin with, but it’s been proven that they are unable to balance the game with all game modes interconnect through skills. I know players play multiple game modes and splitting specs doesn’t stop one from playing each game mode.

Also it may cost a little extra investment up front but once it’s in place it will pay for itself in the end by being easier to maintain, and not making players leave due to issues in game related to balance.

Hey can you point to me the MMO that was every balanced? I’m really curious as a 40 year old mmo vet who’s played since the original EQ and vanilla WOW what mmo you’ve played that had balance for more than a single patch cycle in the life of the game.

I’m not talking perfect balance, but when they make changes geared for only one game type it generally negatively effects the other game types where it would have been a non issue.and it would allow them to make it so some classes do not get excluded from game types due to this.

And with those games thy have horrible track records for balance and they never had split balance either which could be used as an argument in favor of splitting balance between game modes.

There hasn’t been a split between game modes (atleast between pvp and pve) because Anet had not introduced actual challenging PvE content until raids (albeit high level fractals could somewhat fit in this template). Not that this is a good thing, it’s more of a lazy way to only have 1 balance team.

Now that Raids are a thing though making a distinction between balance between game modes is much more important. However, since they have already had the same balance team (which seems to exclusively play PvP) working on the game for so long they probably can’t be bothered to make this split.

Yet even with a balance team that only seems to play PvP they still seem to make terrible balance decisions such as that well of precog change, which not only destroys the skill in all forms of content but thematically makes no sense -_-

Since eSports is all they care about they could just lock skills/traits in place for PvE to lessen the development burden.

You guys are thinking about this all wrong. The more skills are split between game modes, the more focus has to be placed on balance and the less balance changes we’ll get. Having one set of skills and traits for all game modes is less to manage and easier to handle.

What you should be arguing for is for all game modes to need all skills available. Instead of just balancing around pvp, they should model more enemies in pve to fight like players do.

What’s a balance change that’s absolutely critical for one game mode that would be a disaster for another, with no alternatives that would accomplish something similar?

With the frequency and impact of balance changes to GW2 splitting skills between game types is a waste of time. It’s something that has a place when balance is frequent, precise, well informed, with sensitive differences in outcomes. It matters where you’ve tuned everything as carefully as you can and you just can’t achieve acceptable outcomes in two different modes without breaking the symmetry – and then you make subtle changes to cooldowns or ratios to maintain the feel across modes as best you can.

Guild Wars 2 is not in the same hemisphere balance-wise as a game where splitting skills makes the least bit of sense.

Seriously though, if you know a balance change that is critical for one gametype but toxic for another, with no alternatives, I’d love to hear it – otherwise this question is akin to ‘why don’t we drive with our feet on the steering wheel?’ Yeah sure it’s possible but what makes you think it’d be a good idea?

Rukia.9860:

I honestly have no idea, pve & pvp were eventually split in GW1

This occurred because A.Net’s internal decision structure and politics were such a disaster that nothing could get done otherwise, and the result was an immediate downturn in the quality of balance in the game that it never came close to recovering from. This is not an example you should be pointing to of why you should be splitting skills in GW2.

A good example of skill splits is from League of Legends, where balancing is aggressive, constant, and targeted – they have a handful of split skills there because after relentless balancing they could not get a handful of champions to play nice in both their classic modes and dominion, and as a consequence introduced some numerically small but practically impactful splits in cooldowns and damage numbers.

When GW2 is balanced as well as a MOBA, come ask again about splitting skills.

One word:

L.A.Z.Y

Ensign.2189:

What’s a balance change that’s absolutely critical for one game mode that would be a disaster for another, with no alternatives that would accomplish something similar?

With the frequency and impact of balance changes to GW2 splitting skills between game types is a waste of time. It’s something that has a place when balance is frequent, precise, well informed, with sensitive differences in outcomes. It matters where you’ve tuned everything as carefully as you can and you just can’t achieve acceptable outcomes in two different modes without breaking the symmetry – and then you make subtle changes to cooldowns or ratios to maintain the feel across modes as best you can.

Guild Wars 2 is not in the same hemisphere balance-wise as a game where splitting skills makes the least bit of sense.

Seriously though, if you know a balance change that is critical for one gametype but toxic for another, with no alternatives, I’d love to hear it – otherwise this question is akin to ‘why don’t we drive with our feet on the steering wheel?’ Yeah sure it’s possible but what makes you think it’d be a good idea?

Rukia.9860:

I honestly have no idea, pve & pvp were eventually split in GW1

This occurred because A.Net’s internal decision structure and politics were such a disaster that nothing could get done otherwise, and the result was an immediate downturn in the quality of balance in the game that it never came close to recovering from. This is not an example you should be pointing to of why you should be splitting skills in GW2.

A good example of skill splits is from League of Legends, where balancing is aggressive, constant, and targeted – they have a handful of split skills there because after relentless balancing they could not get a handful of champions to play nice in both their classic modes and dominion, and as a consequence introduced some numerically small but practically impactful splits in cooldowns and damage numbers.

When GW2 is balanced as well as a MOBA, come ask again about splitting skills.

How about the fact that players can spend ludicrous amounts of time acquiring certain skins or PvE-only milestones (agony resistance comes to mind) only to have it all fall apart thanks to eSports?

They should balance the classes around PvP first then balance PvE content around that balancing afterward if they aren’t going to split balance.

I think part of the reason is that they want more people to play PvP. If a PvE player jumps into PvP and finds their skills work differently, that may turn them off of the idea because it’s annoying to deal with.

I played an MMO with split game mode balance, and while it may be great for players who live in either of the two predominate game modes, PvE or PvP, it’s horrible for players who are moving from one to the other. Your skill rotations that work well in one doesn’t in the other.

Balance used to be split.

It used to be good. Now it’s the lazy way.

One way balance has never worked across multiple game modes that have different objectives and never will.

Sure its more of a learning barrier but honestly, people aren’t that stupid and Game Developers should stop treating them as such.

I think it would be a lot better for the game but a lot harder to manage. I hope they consider this at least, because there are a ton of small changes over the years that have negatively impacted certain builds and playstyles. In a game where half the traits and skills are unusable, this is a very bad thing.

As an engineer, i have become to hate the PvP mode due to how that nonsensical unified balance kittened over the class in PvE.
Skills and traits got changed in the whole game only due to their performance in PvP (flamethrower/backdraft and the old kit refinement, for example). Turrets never got a decent balance in PvE due to their performance in PvP (where putting it in a node and standing still worked – as they were designed to defend a point – until they nerfed them to the floor despite them doing exactly what they were designed for). In PvE, their only use is as something put down, overcharged and detonated. Because it would be useless otherwise. Gadgets and elixirs are mostly pointless in PvE too, again due to how they balance everything over PvP. Gadgets just don’t do much to justify their use (whereas a slick shoes in PvP can have quite an impact). And elixirs aren’t that much useful either, when you can just use a kit instead. In PvP you could use HGH to get some might…but in PvE you aren’t alone for the most part, and that might can just be provided by your companions, thus greatly diminishing the importance of that trait (and thus of the elixirs themselves).
And then we even get Gyros for the elite spec – an AI minion that no one asked for, because we knew exactly how things would end up – that can’t do anything meaningful due to how PvP guys abhor everything AI related. And indeed, no one cares about them in PvE. And that’s without talking about how they don’t work well, anyway (like, blast gyros going haywire and missing targets just to plaster themselves into a wall, or all the pathing issues that make them move erratically – something that in PvE is usually quite unwanted).
So yeah, if they could split that balance, maybe we could have a class that hasn’t to be kitten constantly due to completely unrelated reasons.

Agemnon.4608:

They should balance the classes around PvP first then balance PvE content around that balancing afterward if they aren’t going to split balance.

That’s really not fair to either side, if they’re going to balance, it should be with EVERYTHING in mind. Would you really be satisfied with pvp being ‘balanced’ (lol no game will ever had perfect balance) while pve suffers or vice versa?

I wouldn’t, and I’m a 90% pvp player.

It’s just simple logic to have them split , at least to layman non-developers like us.. who knows how it really is or what work it takes.

The reason I want to see skill splits in the game are for build diversity reasons. Let’s pretend ArenaNet decided to do skill splits and released their first update for it using Elementalist as an example. Scepter/Focus was really nice for Eles in PvP. Staff was great for WvW. Dagger/Dagger ended up needing a shave in raids and Scepter/X and Staff were great for general PvE.

They have a chance to make a lot more builds viable across all game formats and take away a nerf happening in one area to affect gameplay in another at the same time. It’s unreasonable to think that this is going to be less of an issue going forward as well with more Elite Specs entering the game, not to mention the changes coming to WvW, new raid wings, and whatever new flavor of the month PvE thing they are cooking up.

I for one would love to have a reason and also more options for all of my classes. I’d even start playing again if they implemented skill splits. It means they can be more exact for each format. Is it perfect? Not a chance, but it would be more precise and I think that’s something everyone should get behind.

Iason Evan.3806:

The reason I want to see skill splits in the game are for build diversity reasons. Let’s pretend ArenaNet decided to do skill splits and released their first update for it using Elementalist as an example. Scepter/Focus was really nice for Eles in PvP. Staff was great for WvW. Dagger/Dagger ended up needing a shave in raids and Scepter/X and Staff were great for general PvE.

They have a chance to make a lot more builds viable across all game formats and take away a nerf happening in one area to affect gameplay in another at the same time. It’s unreasonable to think that this is going to be less of an issue going forward as well with more Elite Specs entering the game, not to mention the changes coming to WvW, new raid wings, and whatever new flavor of the month PvE thing they are cooking up.

I for one would love to have a reason and also more options for all of my classes. I’d even start playing again if they implemented skill splits. It means they can be more exact for each format. Is it perfect? Not a chance, but it would be more precise and I think that’s something everyone should get behind.

I used to love playing freshair scepter/focus zerker ele. (I think it was focus?) It took skill to play, ok I should say it took skill to survive, as the burst was not complicated, just about timing. As opposed to this garbage we have now.

Any spec that is fast and bursty and thief-esque is the only thing I can play other than thief. In HoT it seems all the new specs are friggin bunker cancer or just so completely OP that those old specs are not even worth taking a glance at.

The odd thing is , ‘bunkers’ in HoT are doing as much damage as we were 6 months ago in core as zerker/condi lol? What!?

The new amulets are going to make this bunker meta fall off but then again it’s going to be pure condi/power mark my words… they really don’t seem to think about their balance changes, or maybe that is their intention to ruin bunkers?

As much as I hate them, I wouldn’t make them useless by adding a bunch of power amulets and removing the defensive ones.

Manuhell.2759:

(like, blast gyros going haywire and missing targets just to plaster themselves into a wall, or all the pathing issues that make them move erratically – something that in PvE is usually quite unwanted).

I wonder how they designed the pathing. Maybe if they worked em so they behaved like a projectile, so they ignore terrain obstacles somewhat?

Rukia.9860:

The new amulets are going to make this bunker meta fall off but then again it’s going to be pure condi/power mark my words… they really don’t seem to think about their balance changes, or maybe that is their intention to ruin bunkers?

As much as I hate them, I wouldn’t make them useless by adding a bunch of power amulets and removing the defensive ones.

I would be fine with the removal of defensive amulets if more active defense was added.

Palador.2170:

I think part of the reason is that they want more people to play PvP. If a PvE player jumps into PvP and finds their skills work differently, that may turn them off of the idea because it’s annoying to deal with.

I never understood this argument. The people who are turned off by something because it works somewhat differently than what they’re used to aren’t the people sticking to anything anyway.

I actually read a red post stating that. It shouldn’t be ‘too confusing’ when you switch between game modes. Why? They are different game modes, it’s fine if they work differently. And we already have things working in different ways (confusion/retaliation for one). But hey, we got the NPE because apparently anything that isn’t ‘Press 1’ is too confusing for new players.

The simple answer as to why that isn’t the case was mentioned before: cost. It’s way easier to balance around PvP(/WvW) because PvE is so easy. The dumb thing about it is that it leaves many skills pretty underwhelming or completely useless in PvE. Then again, some class mechanics are simply designed with PvP / point defense in mind anyway. Turrets come to mind.
The problem here is that it feels dumbed down and bland. You could probably delete a good amount of skills and traits from PvE and it wouldn’t matter for a good chunk of people.

Ensign.2189:

What’s a balance change that’s absolutely critical for one game mode that would be a disaster for another, with no alternatives that would accomplish something similar?

Condition stacking ? Condition in the past were useless in PvE but against player
they were also nasty .. but now .. i think that is the main reason about what was
written below :

Rukia.9860:

I used to love playing freshair scepter/focus zerker ele. (I think it was focus?) It took skill to play, ok I should say it took skill to survive, as the burst was not complicated, just about timing. As opposed to this garbage we have now.

Any spec that is fast and bursty and thief-esque is the only thing I can play other than thief. In HoT it seems all the new specs are friggin bunker cancer or just so completely OP that those old specs are not even worth taking a glance at.

The odd thing is , ‘bunkers’ in HoT are doing as much damage as we were 6 months ago in core as zerker/condi lol? What!?

The new amulets are going to make this bunker meta fall off but then again it’s going to be pure condi/power mark my words… they really don’t seem to think about their balance changes, or maybe that is their intention to ruin bunkers?

As much as I hate them, I wouldn’t make them useless by adding a bunch of power amulets and removing the defensive ones.

They are really stubborn about pretending that esports is successful, which it isn’t really, but splitting it might actually do it good cause the main pvp fans don’t care about pve and vice versa, but oh well, atleast we all get to suffer together

The wrong decisions have been made in the past. Thats the reason why this MMO is not the #1.

We critizised that fact (split game modes) among others (gfx effects overload, low fps) from the early beta.

As an employee/player you can’t bring this game to the next level due to the fact those who lead are the same.

Those who lead will tell you we don’t want the game to be different. I’ll guess you never faced a foe in PVE and PVP because it is already very different (AI vs Intelligence vs Balancing).

With the caveat that I’m aware that it was only a preview so there may, in theory, be tons of awesome stuff planned that we didn’t see….

If the preview is anything to go by [as a vanilla P/P Thief], it seems like the Devs are only given enough resources to address a tiny subset of specific problems (most likely with a specific brief from TPTB), so it’s all about cheaply keeping it all just about held together with gum and string; rather than properly fixing it.

Separate game mode balance would cost more than gum and string, so forget it.

Ensign.2189:

This occurred because A.Net’s internal decision structure and politics were such a disaster that nothing could get done otherwise, and the result was an immediate downturn in the quality of balance in the game that it never came close to recovering from. This is not an example you should be pointing to of why you should be splitting skills in GW2.

The first skill split in GW1 happened on the 22nd May 2008, more than 1 year after the announcement of Guild Wars 2.

By that time for how long had GvG been dead and buried?

Claiming that the PvE/PvP skill split had anything to do with a GW1 downturn in quality is far fetched.

The skill split like other changes to Anet stances (like the increase of 4 heroes to 7 heroes) happened because most of Anet staff had moved to GW2 and the handful of people left in charge of GW1 (the real reason why there was a downturn in everything) had different ideas.

PvE had an interesting period of toying with forgotten skills.

I don’t understand the whole, “its too much work/effort” to have split between game modes.

I guess I just figure minor adjustments just wouldn’t be that hard to do on the fly. Take for instance the rough skills to deal with in WvW,

Venom wells – Could just nerf duration, or something minor to help a bit, then re-kitten
Hammer Rev 2 – Increase CD (like they just did)
Guard LB 5 – Make it 3 Rings instead of 5, even if you hit 5.. Or just make the rings not last as long…

It just would seem to me like ANET would benefit from a skill split.. and instead of having a talk show and make it a big friggen deal everytime a balance patch comes out.. try some minor adjustments too.

Stability remains a huge issue.. Why not just increase the stacks of all stab sources by a bit here and there? Maybe make stab the last boon to be stripped..

These minor changes won’t fix the game nor change the currently immensely unhappy player base. But it would show that they read players feedback and take steps to help.

3 months of playing a game with several broken things is just ridiculous.. its ridiculous they would think ppl would still play after that.

If it’s too much work to actively split the balance between modes, well, I’m just going to say that’s why people laugh when Gw2 and esports are mentioned in the same sentence.

One size fits all, fits none.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MasterOfNone

Still it just reeks of laziness how they can’t even balance between two game modes! Yea there’s a third one, but I’m pretty sure they’ve never heard of it.

Ensign.2189:

What’s a balance change that’s absolutely critical for one game mode that would be a disaster for another, with no alternatives that would accomplish something similar?

There is no denying the amount of CC the elites can dish out was designed with raid in mind and its spam has been completely toxic to PvP. How fun is to get locked in a CC chain and die in 4 seconds because no amount of stun break will be enough to free yourself from all the spam?

Instead of making a defiant bar according with the CC the professions already had in mind they went with a whole new thing. Now if they reduce the amount of skills that can control, will ruin raid unless they rework on the bar. Time will tell which path Anet will take.