Guild Wars 2

i honestly dont get it,i took a break from to give gw another chance and its just absurd to me.
almost every class is limited to one build in every game mode thats not open world pve where everything goes.
just tell me that this comparison is not extremely weird:
a class in wow has 3 specs that are viable in every game mode(except for tanks in pvp and healers in solo obvioualy)…for example if im playing a shaman im wow i can heal im every game mode,play ranged in every game mode AND play melee on every game mode.
lets take the engi and the necro as examples in gw..
viable specs for pvp? one…thats just a joke
viable specs for fractal? engi with 2 omg and reaper? emmm half i guess
viable raiding spec? engi has 1 and necro has none
the fact that some classes are not raid-viable at all is just hilarious to me.
how are you still playing this game? am i missing something?

The builds that you see commonly used are just what are optimal. There are other builds that are viable.

Because in gw1, balancing all those skills was a kittening nightmare for Anet. And even then, there were only a handful of top tier optimal builds.

People try to use shamans as healers in WoW? That’s news. :\

But anyway, build variety is a “joke”, as you put it, because there are some options or combinations that are overly good, where other options between trait paths don’t have decent synergy nor provide unique/plentiful benefits.
FG/PS, looking at you, by the way.

Amaranthe.3578:

….
just tell me that this comparison is not extremely weird:
a class in wow has 3 specs that are viable in every game mode(except for tanks in pvp and healers in solo obvioualy)…for example if im playing a shaman im wow i can heal im every game mode,play ranged in every game mode AND play melee on every game mode.
…

Ayrilana.1396:

The builds that you see commonly used are just what are optimal. There are other builds that are viable.

Essentially this.

Optimal and Viable are two different words.

Viable suggests that the build(s) can overcome a task.

Optimal suggests that the build is the best build at overcoming a task.

A viable build can be more optimal than another viable build, suggesting that that build is better at overcoming a task.

Heading over to WoW and Noxxic’s DPS (PvE) rankings (http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/targets-1-ilvl-895-fight-real/), we can have a look at the Mage…
By the rankings it has 3 viable builds (possibly more that are not shown), Frost, Arcane, and Fire. Frost places 4th place, Arcane places 5th place, and Fire places 21st place. Now, all builds are viable, though Frost and Arcane are more optimal than fire in both single and multi-target fights. Then Frost is more optimal than Arcane and Fire, in both single and multi-target fights. Out of all the builds, Frost is the most optimal. Now, having played WoW myself, probably 99% of people raiding will run the Frost build, the 1% that don’t will have a harder time getting into raids or core-raid groups…

Similarly for other classes and PvP.

It’s also worth pointing out that the 7k extra DPS done by the Frost mage can be lost due to inadequate mechanical/player skill – say improper rotation. Though, if a Fire Mage is beating a Frost Mage on the dps charts… the frost mage is really doing something wrong, or isn’t geared…

Every game, has tons of viable builds.
And every game has only a handful of the most optimal builds.

Have yet to see a game with a ton of optimal builds per class/prof/spec. I think it’s because we’re using the word “optimal”.

Edit:
The most optimal builds are also called “meta” builds…

Because it is all about the Meta, if you are not playing meta for min/max stats you are not wanted in parties, hard to believe from the game that wanted us to play how we wanted.

Just for fun I made a necro/War on gw 1 (doesn’t sound like a good idea for a mix up right) and with no particular build I did quite well, I expected it to flop as I was doing it for fun.

Jump to gw 2 and I joined a mid level fractal with a non meta Druid, just decided to give a new idea a try, and since I wasn’t full damage they told me to switch or go. Probably around this point I decided to quit.

But as mentioned some work better than others, so everyone uses that, regardless of if your build could actually benefit them more than the meta or not.

I will love it when bubbles is out with mostly underwater content and most if not all elite specs will be useless (If they don’t de ide to turn bubbles into a beached whale that is) : D

That’s a really simple counting task.

Just imagine a set of each and every possible builds :

• Now, just keep the “what works” subset (i.e. remove absurd things like DPS skills with condis stats).
• Now, keep the “What’s useful” subsubset ; because, unfortunately, in open PvE, you mostly need DPS…
• Now, check whether the builds in that subsubset are roughly as effective as each other, or one of those shines so bright in effectiveness that any other seems useless. This subsubsubset is now called “Meta”
• Now, in that subsubsubset, look for builds that also belong to the build set labeled “What I like to play”.

At this moment, are you left with that many options ?

ThomasC.1056:

That’s a really simple counting task.

Just imagine a set of each and every possible builds :

• Now, just keep the “what works” subset (i.e. remove absurd things like DPS skills with condis stats).
• Now, keep the “What’s useful” subsubset ; because, unfortunately, in open PvE, you mostly need DPS…
• Now, check whether the builds in that subsubset are roughly as effective as each other, or one of those shines so bright in effectiveness that any other seems useless. This subsubsubset is now called “Meta”
• Now, in that subsubsubset, look for builds that also belong to the build set labeled “What I like to play”.

At this moment, are you left with that many options ?

If you feel the need to run the meta builds then you’re usually not left with many choices – technically meta is the best build for a given class/role so you should only be left with one build in that case. This is always true.

If, however, you’re not concerned with meta and are prepared for things to take a little longer, there’s a huge number of viable builds. Will they be good enough for everything? No of course not; for highest levels of play you will need meta but for anything else, your favourite build plus skill should be enough to let you proceed and hopefully have an enjoyable experience.

Drakz.7051:

Because it is all about the Meta, if you are not playing meta for min/max stats you are not wanted in parties, hard to believe from the game that wanted us to play how we wanted.

…

It’s not really the game that imposes the meta on players…
It’s the players imposing the meta on players.

If you get into, say “hardcore” raiding, then one would expect from other hardcore players to be on top of the ball on builds and such… But it’s your choice to push your self that far to hang with the “hardcore”…

The others that you meet in pugs and demand that you play meta, are somewhat understandable too. By running the meta, the thought is that it will take less effort and time to overcome a task, so pugs tend to favor that religiously – even if the players aren’t performing well enough to bring out the “meta-ness” in w/e meta build their running, and could perform better on a non-meta build. But it’s the belief that the task will be easier to over with a meta build that defies their reasoning – and beliefs are hard to change.

Zohane.7208:

ThomasC.1056:

That’s a really simple counting task.

Just imagine a set of each and every possible builds :

• Now, just keep the “what works” subset (i.e. remove absurd things like DPS skills with condis stats).
• Now, keep the “What’s useful” subsubset ; because, unfortunately, in open PvE, you mostly need DPS…
• Now, check whether the builds in that subsubset are roughly as effective as each other, or one of those shines so bright in effectiveness that any other seems useless. This subsubsubset is now called “Meta”
• Now, in that subsubsubset, look for builds that also belong to the build set labeled “What I like to play”.

At this moment, are you left with that many options ?

If you feel the need to run the meta builds then you’re usually not left with many choices – technically meta is the best build for a given class/role so you should only be left with one build in that case. This is always true.

If, however, you’re not concerned with meta and are prepared for things to take a little longer, there’s a huge number of viable builds. Will they be good enough for everything? No of course not; for highest levels of play you will need meta but for anything else, your favourite build plus skill should be enough to let you proceed and hopefully have an enjoyable experience.

That may be true, but it’s too optimistic.
Of course, the meta set is a subset of viable. Issue is, with the current setup of both skills and game modes, there’s such an overwhelming gap between meta and viable that it gets frustrating. To be honest, I made all my characters with builds that I enjoy, but are sub-optimal because I truly don’t want to play something that doesn’t fit with my playstyle. Yet, in WvW or in other game modes, I truly feel like “Meh… I’m taking all the hard way when it’s actually that easy”.

Anyway, maybe meta is a world that shouldn’t be used that easy. For example, I consider that lots of classes have one potent pure damage build, and one potent condi build, so there’s not just one meta.

So, if I ask my question with a better wording, I’d ask : “Within the [i]”what works"[/i] subset, how many builds are there that both belong to the “What I like” set, and aren’t totally shadowed by optimal builds ?"

Zero Day.2594:

Drakz.7051:

Because it is all about the Meta, if you are not playing meta for min/max stats you are not wanted in parties, hard to believe from the game that wanted us to play how we wanted.

…

It’s not really the game that imposes the meta on players…
It’s the players imposing the meta on players.

If you get into, say “hardcore” raiding, then one would expect from other hardcore players to be on top of the ball on builds and such… But it’s your choice to push your self that far to hang with the “hardcore”…

The others that you meet in pugs and demand that you play meta, are somewhat understandable too. By running the meta, the thought is that it will take less effort and time to overcome a task, so pugs tend to favor that religiously – even if the players aren’t performing well enough to bring out the “meta-ness” in w/e meta build their running, and could perform better on a non-meta build. But it’s the belief that the task will be easier to over with a meta build that defies their reasoning – and beliefs are hard to change.

gets kind of teary eyed
very carefully replaces the intended reply with a simple…

+1

Nothing to add except for appreciation of eloquence.

Amaranthe.3578:

almost every class is limited to one build in every game mode

Only if you care about meta / elitist / hardcore stuff. My Knight-Cavalier Necro and Celestial Engi are having lots of fun.

Drakz.7051:

Just for fun I made a necro/War on gw 1 (doesn’t sound like a good idea for a mix up right) and with no particular build I did quite well, I expected it to flop as I was doing it for fun.

Jump to gw 2 and I joined a mid level fractal with a non meta Druid, just decided to give a new idea a try, and since I wasn’t full damage they told me to switch or go. Probably around this point I decided to quit.

You couldn’t join in endgame content in GW1 without linking your build to the group first. You’d also get kicked if your build wasn’t what the group asked for and you refused to change it.
Fractal is endgame content and likewise, you’re kicked if your build isn’t what the group ask for and you refuse to change it.
Sadly, we cannot save or link builds in GW2 so it’s a big waste of time for everybody. At least we can kick and invite even if the instance is already started; Unlike in GW1. Everyone had to leave the instance so we could remake the group in the outpost and start it again.

No one cares about your build in Open World content. Like no one really cared about it in normal mode story mission in GW1.

Honestly, I haven’t found this to be as big an issue as people make it out to be. As others have said, the “meta” is enforced by players upon players. In reality, many builds are viable. Unless everyone is sufficiently able to produce the optimal rotations while simultaneously handling the fight mechanics, the meta typically isn’t meta at all.

So, unless you’re raiding, doing tier 4 fractals with a dedicated group, or ranked PvP, the meta is simply not required. You can use it if you like, but only uptight idiots would give you crap about your build in content that simply isn’t that difficult to begin with. It’d be like someone demanding a fire mage in WoW switch to frost for a 5-man normal mode dungeon. It’s completely ridiculous.

First, let’s all stop using these two terms:

“Viable”.

“Meta.”

Because being “viable” in this game is stupidly easy. Nomad’s is “Viable”. And I am not even being facetious; you can make it work and people have.

Being “meta” in this game just means that it is the most popular, as per what meta actually means in latin, it does not really suggest or even guarantee anything near optimal.

For that matter the word “Optimal” is also garbage because in this game being “optimal” to a build path is based on your stats so “optimal” X is not “optimal for the class” it’s just optimal for X. It depends on your end-goal.

WoW, the comparison, actually has a single state of optimization. You can be viable in 3 (count them, 3!) different ways and playstyles. . . After you follow a very distinct path to that. GW2 suffers from analysis paralysis instead; there are so many combinations and options that work and are “viable” that it’s overwhelming and no one explores.

It’s basically an exercise in failing to find the sweetspot.

There’s a lot of builds…you can prioritize on individual damage or group damage. Well, 2… but you can go power or condi. etc.

I’m playing this because it’s fun.

The limitation is not due to the game, it’s due to people being so cuckoo about following the meta. I mean in raid, for example, a healing druid can be half condi and half heals, but according to the meta, this is not good. But if you’re a good player and ure not killing bosses to make a world record or something, it gets the job done the same way.

Welcome to EVERY MMO out there – okay I’ve not played every MMO but enough to see this has been an issue everywhere. let’s be real about this, optimal builds are very finite that’s why they are optimal and SAFE.

It’s not quite singular but close. Sure you could have a class that has 10 optimal builds that equal min/max numbers each I guess. But that’s rarely ever the case.

Look at a game like ArcheAge (it’s been a year since I’ve played) but despite the incredible variety of builds – there are still optimal ones that likewise ppl would dispute if u weren’t going with. You could be “viable” as a heretic but man you aren’t a Darkrunner so wtf go that or this or gtfo.

People look for the “best” in meta, ie: the easiest best builds to min/max numbers and thus gives your group the most probability to finish the content. w/o issues. It’s yes a function of the implementation of class mechanics, gameplay, etc. Then it’s down to the players that enforce the meta, sometimes it’s chicken or egg, but like okay, you may be slower/not as sharp to raid with viable but not the bees knees builds. Room for error is greater. You can get it done though. BUT WITH PUGS, ppl tend to want to be safe and optimized is SAFE (excluding skill level to play such a build). So, pugging often is very elitist – esp when u get half a guild or such.

Game modes w/ tiered difficulties ramps such up per level where optimization really starts to matter taking away viable builds for a few optimized. Think like scholar runes for fractals. Why no Druid Healers? Because with highest tier fractals is all about DPS and agony; thus you have less build room to play around or roles. It enforces optimal builds in its gameplay mechanic. So thats purely on GW2 for Fractals.

Like a Story Mode vs. Hard Mode in SWTOR, or any difficulty levels. Higher difficulty obviously = less variety of builds/classes.

My point is this isn’t unique to GW2; nor does GW2 do this more say for some modes – it seems that way because ironically enough there ARE more variety potential and build options over other games like SWTOR or WoW so it seems more so like those are wasted and only a few builds MUST be used. Likewise classes. It’s just safer and better chance to finish fractal w/ an Ele over an Engi for example. You definitely CAN either way. But, with current meta yeah, that’s the class gameplay mechanic currently – and players enforce or don’t.

Also, that’s you find a guild that’s not hardcore where say for when absolutely necessary you CAN try out builds while Raid, etc. I couldn’t stay in any MMO w/o a guild if had to pug only that’s bleh… for ANY game. :P

DGraves.3720:

First, let’s all stop using these two terms:

“Viable”.

“Meta.”

The thing is, we need terms to discuss things. More terms allows for more complex discussions… But yes, I can see where you’re going with by the next few sentences.

OP has said, that there is only one viable spec that the engie has for raiding. With that, it’s importent to have several terms (besides “viable”) to help example what the situation is and why there’s only one and what there’s only one of.

DGraves.3720:

Because being “viable” in this game is stupidly easy. Nomad’s is “Viable”. And I am not even being facetious; you can make it work and people have.

Being “meta” in this game just means that it is the most popular, as per what meta actually means in latin, it does not really suggest or even guarantee anything near optimal.

Yeah I can’t argue that being viable is easy, but that’s what being viable is… Simply being able to do something successfully. You can say, there are many viable options for coffee machines when looking for one… Yup, there are millions of different types of coffee machines. All of which produce coffee. Though, some, produce garbage tasting coffee, but still complete the task of producing coffee.

“Meta”, as far as I’m aware is like a concept of a concept. Besides games, I’ve only come across “meta”, as “meta-data” – which is data about data, or data that describes data. You can’t really say “meta-build” as “build that builds/describes builds”, so I think where it kind of comes from is the theory crafting part… Theory crafting first develops the build then tests it. Several builds are developed, tested, and then out of those builds the most optimal is deemed “meta”. A new term, that’s easier to describe is “meta-game”, heard in Overwatch. You can say it’s the game before the game… As in you’re think of “hey, we have so and so on our team how can counter so and so but can be countered by someone else but is better suited than…”. Essentially you’re trying to play out all the scenarios and the “best” solutions to those scenarios – prior to even being in the game. Theory crafting a build has some elements of trying to play out all the scenarios/variables – say boss fights with lots of AoE on the ground that you need to dodge would require more mobile builds…

Truthfully, yeah kind of cringe at the use of “meta” (just like the use of “datamining”, “exploits”, “hacks”, and all other kinds of things that people use losely and freely)… But I understand it’s the internet. It’s jargon that caught on, for w/e stupid reason things catch on, and it’s best to just understand what it means and how people are using it…

DGraves.3720:

For that matter the word “Optimal” is also garbage because in this game being “optimal” to a build path is based on your stats so “optimal” X is not “optimal for the class” it’s just optimal for X. It depends on your end-goal.

Yup, that is what optimal means. You’re optimal for completing a certian task. You’re the most effecient at performing said task. Other taskes? Well, those are other taskes, that you may or may not be optimal for (but we don’t care).

DGraves.3720:

WoW, the comparison, actually has a single state of optimization. You can be viable in 3 (count them, 3!) different ways and playstyles. . . After you follow a very distinct path to that. GW2 suffers from analysis paralysis instead; there are so many combinations and options that work and are “viable” that it’s overwhelming and no one explores.

Well, 3 viable ones shown on the Noxxic DPS charts. That’s not to say that there aren’t 50 others that are capable of completing w/e task you’re looking to complete (at this point it’s being top on the DPS chart). Hell, even more than 50, who knows how many – like you said, it’s overwhelming and no one explores.

Out of those three only one is the best of the three, the most optimal for being top on the DPS charts. Most of the time there’s only one. Conceptually, there can be many – but – they have to produce the same DPS and be equally as easy. If, say there were two builds that produced equal DPS but one had a more complex rotation than the other, the complexity of it would push it out of being optimal since it is not the easiest possible way to produce that DPS. Like a rotation containing 3 skills versus one that contains 4 skills, the first would be more optimal than the second even if they both produce the same DPS.

DGraves.3720:

It’s basically an exercise in failing to find the sweetspot.

Yeah kind of. The terms, I’m thinking of them more of sub/super-sets of each other. The human aspect, being able to do those rotations perfectly, makes it wonky, and yeah find what best works for you… Again going back to the WoW mage example, there was a 7k difference in DPS, well that 7k can be gained or lost through how well the player executes the rotation.

Hey! I’ll try to answer “in general”, with a focus on GW, even if this is true for almost every game I play.

There are many viable builds, but it depends a lot on the meaning you give to the “viable” word

Viable in terms of high level of play/elitist/pro approach means “optimal”: they’re synonyms, since you won’t get the chance to access pre-made rosters/groups unless you show the optimal solutions for your class (being it equip/skills etc etc).

Viable in terms of “everyone else” means “everything that’s not counter-intuitive” or particularly fragile in terms of alternatives/timing.
In this case (as I do) you have just to know your class, tweak a lot and develop your own build that is it at least “useful” in dungeons and group content.

In open PvE, everything is “viable”. The absence of the “trinity” in this game lets you do almost every combination and the ease of change “on the fly” in GW2 is what I like the most, since there are zones in which you’ll have to use some of your istinct and class knowledge to “optimize” your class capabilities to the current environment: you’ll be able to play through it anyway, but you’d do it with pain if you just ignore a skill that might turn a zone/combat in “easy mode”.

So: focusing a bit on equipment, I see GW2 being the most flexible game in the market nowadays, in terms of ease of “self made” (outside PoE, which is a completely different game, tho).

WoW has no more than 1 viable build per class (in terms of high level of play) and some classes are not viable at all (alternating).

In FFXIV, which is one of my favourite games of all times, there is an actual build for every class: it’s not a restriction, that’s how the game’s class system is made. You can play every class in you character and it’s plenty of jobs, but a CLASS plays the same way on every character you’ll meet (outside the actual need of being able to play it properly and adapt that same build to the same dungeons, which is a completely different pair of hands).

So, there is this huge distinction, easily overlooked: class-play vs class-build.
In GW2 you can play your class in many ways and build it in that exact same number of ways… The gameplay is DPS focused, so it’s more about how you use what you built.
In WoW you can build a class in a SINGLE way (per spec) to be useful to any existent roster, but you have to be proactive in gameplay.
In FFXIV there’s no “building” concept (outside cross-class skills, which are not class-defining), but there’s a huge “how to play” mindset to understand.

If you look for “self mades all around” you should try games based on complex skill trees like Path of Exile, but that can be odd if you like the “standard” mmo approach.

Cheers!

Lahmia.2193:

Because in gw1, balancing all those skills was a kittening nightmare for Anet. And even then, there were only a handful of top tier optimal builds.

yes, still that doesnt mean they are doing a good job in gw2 either, the optimized builds for wathever the gamemode have a huge performance gap agasint other builds, every one tend to runs the same traits or almost the same utilites, for some reason.

GW2 was pretty balanced pre-hot, all classes had at least 2 viable builds per game mode (and by 2 viable i mean both were pretty much even, with minor differences depending on opponents), if nothing else, you could pick between power and condi builds, since after the big content patch pre-hot condis were made pretty viable.

Hot brought Elite specializations with it, and Raids. For Raids min-maxing became a thing, and although people are finishing raids in half-strength groups and with equipment restrictions for the kicks, the common mortal still has to overcome a ton of barriers to begin rading. Especially because 1/10 people are kittens, and you’re bound to get one in a raid, so if your spec isn’t the exact one listed on MetaBattle, you’re gonna get kicked from groups sooner or later.

But that’s for raids, what about the rest of the game? Well, from my experience, the rest of PvE is solid, there was a time when Guardians were kind of persona non-grata on raids because of the boon steal Instability, which was removed.

PvP on the other hand, from my point of view has only gotten worse since HoT, Season 3 was kind of ok, there were still a lot of balance issues, and progression was kind of easy, but at least it was fun.
Of course elitist players again marr the fun out of the games, and since they don’t want people to make them look less godly (which honestly, most people won’t, because most people don’t play the game professionally), and whatever made Season 3 fun was removed. And then they removed having fun with your friends, because multi-player games are about playing alone. But i digress…

In PvP build variety is pretty much crap, sure you can make a few off-meta builds, but 90% of the times, there’s 1-2 meta builds, especially on mesmer and elementalist, that broker no contest, because of elite specs, and hot necklaces and runes they can be made pretty much unkilalble, and still dish out awesome damage. Which is great for PvE, but makes the game no contest for PvP, so yeah, in PvP if you build outside the meta, you’ll be bronze, and even then, because matchmaking is crap, you’ll probably never get outside silver, if you don’t play a TON of games to beat the odds. Or just cheat, some people did that.

ReaverKane.7598:

GW2 was pretty balanced pre-hot, all classes had at least 2 viable builds per game mode (and by 2 viable i mean both were pretty much even, with minor differences depending on opponents), if nothing else, you could pick between power and condi builds, since after the big content patch pre-hot condis were made pretty viable.

Hot brought Elite specializations with it, and Raids. For Raids min-maxing became a thing, and although people are finishing raids in half-strength groups and with equipment restrictions for the kicks, the common mortal still has to overcome a ton of barriers to begin rading. Especially because 1/10 people are kittens, and you’re bound to get one in a raid, so if your spec isn’t the exact one listed on MetaBattle, you’re gonna get kicked from groups sooner or later.

But that’s for raids, what about the rest of the game? Well, from my experience, the rest of PvE is solid, there was a time when Guardians were kind of persona non-grata on raids because of the boon steal Instability, which was removed.

PvP on the other hand, from my point of view has only gotten worse since HoT, Season 3 was kind of ok, there were still a lot of balance issues, and progression was kind of easy, but at least it was fun.
Of course elitist players again marr the fun out of the games, and since they don’t want people to make them look less godly (which honestly, most people won’t, because most people don’t play the game professionally), and whatever made Season 3 fun was removed. And then they removed having fun with your friends, because multi-player games are about playing alone. But i digress…

In PvP build variety is pretty much crap, sure you can make a few off-meta builds, but 90% of the times, there’s 1-2 meta builds, especially on mesmer and elementalist, that broker no contest, because of elite specs, and hot necklaces and runes they can be made pretty much unkilalble, and still dish out awesome damage. Which is great for PvE, but makes the game no contest for PvP, so yeah, in PvP if you build outside the meta, you’ll be bronze, and even then, because matchmaking is crap, you’ll probably never get outside silver, if you don’t play a TON of games to beat the odds. Or just cheat, some people did that.

the way i see it this : the elite specs are the new pillars around which the game is going to be balanced.they are trying to make the game more traditional/
if in wow a mage has 3 specs : arcane,fire and frost the ele is going to have lets say tempest,pyromancer,avatar.
however we only have one spec now T_T

yes OP, you are indeed missing something.

The number of builds (going to refer them more as archetypes, such condi or power reaper) you listed is far short of what is viable.
Another is that you’re seeing “use skill x/y/z” as the be-all-end-all. The utils, sometimes traits, even weapon sets will change depending on the enemy AND upon your allies.

stop being braindead, and think about the encounters and how you can be more effective – builds soon change out a lot to fit niche.

Would be vastly easier if we had build templates though – people can’t be bothered spending 10 mins rebuilding. Especially when they could end up doing it every 10 mins.

The game has a lot more build variety than people think. The vast majority of the game depends on player skill, not build, allowing a lot of players the opportunity to choose what they want to play.

“Viable” and “meta” are no longer useful terms for having a discussion about builds. Ask 20 MMOers about the meaning and we’d get 48 different (combined) definitions.

As others have said, there will always be one build for every situation that is “most popular” for various reasons: people like efficient, we like high damage numbers, we like using builds that someone else has spent time theory crafting. This is especially true in GW2 where there are a huge number “what if” situations that can affect how strong a build is.

That’s why Viper Necro is so popular in PUG fractals: that build gets the job done regardless of player skill, team comp, etc. And that’s why a lot of builds aren’t considered for newbie or many PUG raids: people want previously-vetted team comps to ensure a minimum chance of success.

Just wait til Bubbles is out and the current elite specs will be mostly useless unless Bubbles turns out to be beached like a whale xD

i can play 3 different builds on my guardian in pvp. Some of them dont even use dragonhunter. And i still manage to be “viable” while using it in the role the build was ment for

2-3 on elementalist (the 3rd one being a glassy staff nuker..but i dont play it ranked much cause of the unpredictability of my team comp)

2-3 on thieves as well,

3 on ranger, 4 if you count a druid version of the previous non druid version.

Hate to break a lot of people’s hearts around here, but not every build is viable. And that’s what has lead to the birth of the “meta.”

Go into WvW as a minion master necro and enjoy doing no damage as your minions will get vaporized by the time you get your first spell off. Go into any PvP scenario as a water ele and you’ll be needing those heals for yourself.. the whole 10 seconds you live.

The meta is both the result of Anet’s goof of creating so many armor sets and specs without applying them in a live setting and on behalf of the players who min/max everything and want a fast win, be it in PvP or PvE.

Some classes have it better with the majority of their talents and specs, other’s dont. But something that is pretty typical in MMO’s is that you’ll have a PvE spec and a PvP spec. It has to do with trying to balance PvP and PvE when both are in the same setting. For example, in GW1, PvP and PvE were two different things. Blizzard struggled for years trying to find that right balance, only to discover that they had to separate the two. (Polymorph had a different duration in each game type.)

Since GW2 plays similar to WoW in that regard, there will never be real balance and the scales will always tip, causing a certain build to do better than the others. That build is called the “meta.”

Just to play devil’s advocate a bit (I do that a lot, it seems), is it wrong to suggest that some builds that are “viable” but not “optimal” could be made “more optimized”? We all know, there are builds out there that just don’t work at all (i.e. “not viable” in some content) but could work better with some changes. Then there are builds that we wished existed but don’t and could exist if certain balance changes were made.

Simple example: Ice Elementalist. That is, an elementalist who can do some decent DPS with water attunement. There are traits that exist to facilitate such a build but it’s not enough and the skills available don’t line up for such a build to be competitive with similar non-meta viable builds.

Perhaps I’m speaking out of ignorance, but I tend to have at least 2 builds and sometimes 4 builds that I swap between for all content (WvW, WvW zerging, PvE in general minus raids, hotjoin Pvp) but I feel that I should have many more but limitations on the game and systematic (it takes like 5 min to swap between builds! and that would get worse depending if I need to swap stuff from the bank with more builds!) that could be changed to help provide more viable builds. Heck, just discussion could open up change if you’re willing to admit changes need to be made. What improbable or non-viable build would you like buffed for your favorite class? Mesmer used to do so well in regards to variety but I hear less and less from them, as if they’ve been shoehorned like all the other professions.

Leo G.4501:

Just to play devil’s advocate a bit (I do that a lot, it seems), is it wrong to suggest that some builds that are “viable” but not “optimal” could be made “more optimized”? We all know, there are builds out there that just don’t work at all (i.e. “not viable” in some content) but could work better with some changes. Then there are builds that we wished existed but don’t and could exist if certain balance changes were made.
…

Build A could be more optimal then Build B for a particular task. It does not mean that Build A stems from Build B – it could and it could not. Both builds are viable if they can successfully. One is more optimal than the other if it performs better at the task.

Amaranthe.3578:

ReaverKane.7598:

GW2 was pretty balanced pre-hot, all classes had at least 2 viable builds per game mode (and by 2 viable i mean both were pretty much even, with minor differences depending on opponents), if nothing else, you could pick between power and condi builds, since after the big content patch pre-hot condis were made pretty viable.

Hot brought Elite specializations with it, and Raids. For Raids min-maxing became a thing, and although people are finishing raids in half-strength groups and with equipment restrictions for the kicks, the common mortal still has to overcome a ton of barriers to begin rading. Especially because 1/10 people are kittens, and you’re bound to get one in a raid, so if your spec isn’t the exact one listed on MetaBattle, you’re gonna get kicked from groups sooner or later.

But that’s for raids, what about the rest of the game? Well, from my experience, the rest of PvE is solid, there was a time when Guardians were kind of persona non-grata on raids because of the boon steal Instability, which was removed.

PvP on the other hand, from my point of view has only gotten worse since HoT, Season 3 was kind of ok, there were still a lot of balance issues, and progression was kind of easy, but at least it was fun.
Of course elitist players again marr the fun out of the games, and since they don’t want people to make them look less godly (which honestly, most people won’t, because most people don’t play the game professionally), and whatever made Season 3 fun was removed. And then they removed having fun with your friends, because multi-player games are about playing alone. But i digress…

In PvP build variety is pretty much crap, sure you can make a few off-meta builds, but 90% of the times, there’s 1-2 meta builds, especially on mesmer and elementalist, that broker no contest, because of elite specs, and hot necklaces and runes they can be made pretty much unkilalble, and still dish out awesome damage. Which is great for PvE, but makes the game no contest for PvP, so yeah, in PvP if you build outside the meta, you’ll be bronze, and even then, because matchmaking is crap, you’ll probably never get outside silver, if you don’t play a TON of games to beat the odds. Or just cheat, some people did that.

the way i see it this : the elite specs are the new pillars around which the game is going to be balanced.they are trying to make the game more traditional/
if in wow a mage has 3 specs : arcane,fire and frost the ele is going to have lets say tempest,pyromancer,avatar.
however we only have one spec now T_T

That is what i thought too, initially, which is why its even worse as it is now. I mean they SHOULD have released at least 2 different Elite Specializations if Elite Spec was meant to be the new “power standard”, or at least by now the Living story should have unlocked another one.
But no, what they did was play semantics and change the name of trait lines to specializations so now “we have” several specializations to pick from. But what resulted was in an effective power creep, which is locked from Free to Players, so people trying out the PvP will also feel that barrier to entry, and likely label GW2 as P2W.
HoT was a mess, i love guildwars, loved some of the maps (idk how anyone can love Tangled Depths), but godkitten the delivery was so awkward and ill-advised so many times. I feel like it broke more stuff than it improved to be honest, and we’re still feeling it’s effects.

Zero Day.2594:

Leo G.4501:

Just to play devil’s advocate a bit (I do that a lot, it seems), is it wrong to suggest that some builds that are “viable” but not “optimal” could be made “more optimized”? We all know, there are builds out there that just don’t work at all (i.e. “not viable” in some content) but could work better with some changes. Then there are builds that we wished existed but don’t and could exist if certain balance changes were made.
…

Build A could be more optimal then Build B for a particular task. It does not mean that Build A stems from Build B – it could and it could not. Both builds are viable if they can successfully. One is more optimal than the other if it performs better at the task.

Completely beside the point.

So Build A could be made more optimal to perform closer to Build B for the same task. Now Build F is even worse than Build A which is seen as suboptimal but viable. Build P is even worse than Build F. Not that all builds can be equal, but could changes be made to facilitate improvements for Build F and Build P without harshly affecting Build A-C?

That is the point I was trying to make.

ReaverKane.7598:

That is what i thought too, initially, which is why its even worse as it is now. I mean they SHOULD have released at least 2 different Elite Specializations if Elite Spec was meant to be the new “power standard”, or at least by now the Living story should have unlocked another one.
But no, what they did was play semantics and change the name of trait lines to specializations so now “we have” several specializations to pick from. But what resulted was in an effective power creep, which is locked from Free to Players, so people trying out the PvP will also feel that barrier to entry, and likely label GW2 as P2W.
HoT was a mess, i love guildwars, loved some of the maps (idk how anyone can love Tangled Depths), but godkitten the delivery was so awkward and ill-advised so many times. I feel like it broke more stuff than it improved to be honest, and we’re still feeling it’s effects.

Meh, if the game is marketed so that the players that bought the game have an advantage, sure, go ahead and lable the game as P2W. But labels, in this day and age of the internet, are hugely exaggerated and taken out of context. People that rely on lables to make decisions are begging you to lie to them. In that context, I don’t care if those particular people decide to play the game for free or move on to some other game. Players like that aren’t expected to have much loyalty to a particular brand or game anyway (same as me, but at least I’m not ignorant enough to allow someone else’s lables of a game decide if I try a game or not).

Since the environment of the game has changed over time, I’m more inclined to accept the inevitable so long as that inevitable end is tolerable, i.e. if I’m a PvPer going into GW2, I can accept that there might be more options for me to excel if I purchased the game so long as I’m not strung along a constant stream of payments. If I’m so outmatched that purchase is necessary (I can still beat people and help win hotjoins with base Ele) then P2W may extend to a degree that it’s likely not worth investing time and money. But if I can still compete with modest skilled or below players, that’s a different story.

Leo G.4501:

Zero Day.2594:

Leo G.4501:

Just to play devil’s advocate a bit (I do that a lot, it seems), is it wrong to suggest that some builds that are “viable” but not “optimal” could be made “more optimized”? We all know, there are builds out there that just don’t work at all (i.e. “not viable” in some content) but could work better with some changes. Then there are builds that we wished existed but don’t and could exist if certain balance changes were made.
…

Build A could be more optimal then Build B for a particular task. It does not mean that Build A stems from Build B – it could and it could not. Both builds are viable if they can successfully. One is more optimal than the other if it performs better at the task.

Completely beside the point.

So Build A could be made more optimal to perform closer to Build B for the same task. Now Build F is even worse than Build A which is seen as suboptimal but viable. Build P is even worse than Build F. Not that all builds can be equal, but could changes be made to facilitate improvements for Build F and Build P without harshly affecting Build A-C?

That is the point I was trying to make.

Ah!

See you’re looking ahead it seems…

In my explanations Builds A through Z have no impact on one another. They are builds, in the explanations, that exist kind of like in a vacuum (to avoid complications) that are made to complete a certain task. What build, what task, what game – who knows. It’s just an example used to explain things.

When builds start effecting each other, than you’re looking at a group level. Again, viable groups, and optimal groups emerge…. But that’s at the group level.

You can take those groups and somehow add them togather to make populations (or w/e), that are then have a different viability or optimality at that “population” level.

It is possible that a group composed of optimal builds (on the “build” level) could end up being sub-optimal on the “group” level. That is the optimal builds in that group are lacking synergy between each other. But this issue is at the group level now, you have more things to account for…

Rashagar.8349:

Zero Day.2594:

Drakz.7051:

Because it is all about the Meta, if you are not playing meta for min/max stats you are not wanted in parties, hard to believe from the game that wanted us to play how we wanted.

…

It’s not really the game that imposes the meta on players…
It’s the players imposing the meta on players.

If you get into, say “hardcore” raiding, then one would expect from other hardcore players to be on top of the ball on builds and such… But it’s your choice to push your self that far to hang with the “hardcore”…

The others that you meet in pugs and demand that you play meta, are somewhat understandable too. By running the meta, the thought is that it will take less effort and time to overcome a task, so pugs tend to favor that religiously – even if the players aren’t performing well enough to bring out the “meta-ness” in w/e meta build their running, and could perform better on a non-meta build. But it’s the belief that the task will be easier to over with a meta build that defies their reasoning – and beliefs are hard to change.

gets kind of teary eyed
very carefully replaces the intended reply with a simple…

+1

Nothing to add except for appreciation of eloquence.

Something that I wish more people recognized a long time ago when I posted walls on this topic; the existence of the “berserker (gear type) meta” is entirely player-made and in terms of run consistency, sub-optimal. It just came down to people demanding efficiency for gold gains or people who were dumb and senselessly copied the hardcore scene. Nothing’s going to change that demand for raw efficiency, ever, as even the concept of the trinity and roles are just an exacerbated and design-enforced meta-optimization done on the developer-side of things.

The only thing to offset this is to frequently update and change the existing PvE content and provide alternatives for other builds to potentially save time (tank thief in the old Thaumanova fractal crossing the fume chamber to skip a boss, for example).

Otherwise you’ll just end up in an infinite cycle of emergent optimizations, which, let’s face it, are very easy to achieve in this game to the blatant trait-power disparity and the half-dead-snail-crawl-pacing of the profession changes.

As for the optimization in PvP, and lack of viability, well, there’s going to be similar optimization for the top-end, but the meta is set in stone just because the game as it stands is horribly balanced and most elites are just abysmally-designed, major power creep.

all the talk about “optimal” and “viable” shows the problem here, every single build should be useful in every way.
if the game is only made for meta and endgame then it needs a serious overhaul, like completely change every single skill.

seriously, to me when a profession feels good to me the way i made my build then that’s the right way to go, if we’re talking about if it’s meta enough then i see no hope of making this game a fun game.

in GW1 i could make the most broken build and it still works, it’s the opposite of meta but woks just as.
in GW2 it’s meta or f* off, that to me shows the flaw of the game.

ether overhaul the game so meta doesn’t really exist (because every build is meta) or make changes that it’s hard regardless of build. (so now meta still doesn’t exist because all the meta builds are ruined)

sorudo.9054:

all the talk about “optimal” and “viable” shows the problem here, every single build should be useful in every way.
/snip

IF this were true, then build decisions would be meaningless.
Essentially there would only be one “build” at all.

You’re understanding of the problem is part of the problem.

sorudo.9054:

-snip-

in GW1 i could make the most broken build and it still works, it’s the opposite of meta but woks just as.
in GW2 it’s meta or f* off, that to me shows the flaw of the game.

-snip-

In GW(1) you could make almost any build work as long as you went by yourself or with heroes/henchmen, the same it true in GW2 as long as you stay in open world.
In GW(1) virtually all hard mode parties required you to use quite specific builds, the same is true in GW2 when you party for harder stuff.

I don’t really see the difference.

sorudo.9054:

in GW1 i could make the most broken build and it still works, it’s the opposite of meta but woks just as.
in GW2 it’s meta or f* off, that to me shows the flaw of the game.

So you’re saying UW/FoW speed clear groups let you in on a “The power is yours” motivation paragon?

I’d say elitism and meta enforcement has died off a lot in gw2, most of it moving to raids. Pre HoT, both dungeons and fractal lfgs were ruled by elitist meta groups (zerkers only, ps war/thief/ele/guard or gtfo – no necros/rangers allowed). Nowadays the most elitism you get in fractals are “condi necro only” groups which don’t exactly rule the lfg. Most lfgs are just the usual “t4 dailies” groups.

As for gw1 vs gw2, it has always been that you can make any build work in most of the areas of the game. Its just certain builds are better than others.

On a side note: my 2 favourite gw1 builds were a necro/dervish scythe wounding strike build and a necro/paragon spear build, using spear of fury, “find their weakness” and “I am the strongest”.

Leo G.4501:

Meh, if the game is marketed so that the players that bought the game have an advantage, sure, go ahead and lable the game as P2W. But labels, in this day and age of the internet, are hugely exaggerated and taken out of context. People that rely on lables to make decisions are begging you to lie to them. In that context, I don’t care if those particular people decide to play the game for free or move on to some other game. Players like that aren’t expected to have much loyalty to a particular brand or game anyway (same as me, but at least I’m not ignorant enough to allow someone else’s lables of a game decide if I try a game or not).

Since the environment of the game has changed over time, I’m more inclined to accept the inevitable so long as that inevitable end is tolerable, i.e. if I’m a PvPer going into GW2, I can accept that there might be more options for me to excel if I purchased the game so long as I’m not strung along a constant stream of payments. If I’m so outmatched that purchase is necessary (I can still beat people and help win hotjoins with base Ele) then P2W may extend to a degree that it’s likely not worth investing time and money. But if I can still compete with modest skilled or below players, that’s a different story.

You need to understand this from the marketing perspective. There’s a HUGE negative perception on the western market for F2P games, which are usually looked at as lower quality games that are either low quality Asian grind fest ports or Western games that didn’t make it as subscription games and had to lower their bar to keep a float, it doesn’t matter that in truth GW2’s model didn’t really change and that the “F2P” account is a demo, people still talk about it as free to play, people still see it as F2P, and most people that don’t know the game will look at youtube reviews, and if they get too negative the game doesn’t sell.
Easy examples, look at Black Desert and Archeage. Both HUGELY antecipated games, both pretty high quality when they released, both didn’t live up to the hype and although active are way below the player base they had before “P2W” started being associated with their brands.

DeceiverX.8361:

Something that I wish more people recognized a long time ago when I posted walls on this topic; the existence of the “berserker (gear type) meta” is entirely player-made and in terms of run consistency, sub-optimal. It just came down to people demanding efficiency for gold gains or people who were dumb and senselessly copied the hardcore scene. Nothing’s going to change that demand for raw efficiency, ever, as even the concept of the trinity and roles are just an exacerbated and design-enforced meta-optimization done on the developer-side of things.

The only thing to offset this is to frequently update and change the existing PvE content and provide alternatives for other builds to potentially save time (tank thief in the old Thaumanova fractal crossing the fume chamber to skip a boss, for example).

Otherwise you’ll just end up in an infinite cycle of emergent optimizations, which, let’s face it, are very easy to achieve in this game to the blatant trait-power disparity and the half-dead-snail-crawl-pacing of the profession changes.

As for the optimization in PvP, and lack of viability, well, there’s going to be similar optimization for the top-end, but the meta is set in stone just because the game as it stands is horribly balanced and most elites are just abysmally-designed, major power creep.

+1
Basically this.
For build diversity to happen we need ~2 more Elite specs, or that Core professions are brought up to Elite Spec status.
For example basic trait lines could use improved synergies, instead of having disparity in trait lines where you have to pick whole trait lines for one trait, or have conflicting traits in a single line.
Then there’s the obvious power creep of Elites themselves, everything about them blows the core specs out of the water. And yet, over a year later, we still haven’t seen a patch addressing that huge elephant in the room.
Core Specs aren’t an alternative, they’re a filler. It’s 2 specs you pick to go along with your Elite one.

ReaverKane.7598:

Leo G.4501:

Meh, if the game is marketed so that the players that bought the game have an advantage, sure, go ahead and lable the game as P2W. But labels, in this day and age of the internet, are hugely exaggerated and taken out of context. People that rely on lables to make decisions are begging you to lie to them. In that context, I don’t care if those particular people decide to play the game for free or move on to some other game. Players like that aren’t expected to have much loyalty to a particular brand or game anyway (same as me, but at least I’m not ignorant enough to allow someone else’s lables of a game decide if I try a game or not).

Since the environment of the game has changed over time, I’m more inclined to accept the inevitable so long as that inevitable end is tolerable, i.e. if I’m a PvPer going into GW2, I can accept that there might be more options for me to excel if I purchased the game so long as I’m not strung along a constant stream of payments. If I’m so outmatched that purchase is necessary (I can still beat people and help win hotjoins with base Ele) then P2W may extend to a degree that it’s likely not worth investing time and money. But if I can still compete with modest skilled or below players, that’s a different story.

You need to understand this from the marketing perspective. There’s a HUGE negative perception on the western market for F2P games, which are usually looked at as lower quality games that are either low quality Asian grind fest ports or Western games that didn’t make it as subscription games and had to lower their bar to keep a float, it doesn’t matter that in truth GW2’s model didn’t really change and that the “F2P” account is a demo, people still talk about it as free to play, people still see it as F2P, and most people that don’t know the game will look at youtube reviews, and if they get too negative the game doesn’t sell.
Easy examples, look at Black Desert and Archeage. Both HUGELY antecipated games, both pretty high quality when they released, both didn’t live up to the hype and although active are way below the player base they had before “P2W” started being associated with their brands.

DeceiverX.8361:

Something that I wish more people recognized a long time ago when I posted walls on this topic; the existence of the “berserker (gear type) meta” is entirely player-made and in terms of run consistency, sub-optimal. It just came down to people demanding efficiency for gold gains or people who were dumb and senselessly copied the hardcore scene. Nothing’s going to change that demand for raw efficiency, ever, as even the concept of the trinity and roles are just an exacerbated and design-enforced meta-optimization done on the developer-side of things.

The only thing to offset this is to frequently update and change the existing PvE content and provide alternatives for other builds to potentially save time (tank thief in the old Thaumanova fractal crossing the fume chamber to skip a boss, for example).

Otherwise you’ll just end up in an infinite cycle of emergent optimizations, which, let’s face it, are very easy to achieve in this game to the blatant trait-power disparity and the half-dead-snail-crawl-pacing of the profession changes.

As for the optimization in PvP, and lack of viability, well, there’s going to be similar optimization for the top-end, but the meta is set in stone just because the game as it stands is horribly balanced and most elites are just abysmally-designed, major power creep.

+1
Basically this.
For build diversity to happen we need ~2 more Elite specs, or that Core professions are brought up to Elite Spec status.
For example basic trait lines could use improved synergies, instead of having disparity in trait lines where you have to pick whole trait lines for one trait, or have conflicting traits in a single line.
Then there’s the obvious power creep of Elites themselves, everything about them blows the core specs out of the water. And yet, over a year later, we still haven’t seen a patch addressing that huge elephant in the room.
Core Specs aren’t an alternative, they’re a filler. It’s 2 specs you pick to go along with your Elite one.

agree for the most part

Just wait until the new elite specs are announced and they nerf non-elite specs because the new ones will have similar features to the new elites.

Like for example nerfing Acrobatics specialization on Thief because Daredevil also had dodges and evades.