Guild Wars 2

Ever since the condi buff I’ve seen an increasing amount of condi builds in pvp/wvw and all fights seem to include at least one burn guardian and a few other ones.

As you know, the conditions are extremely powerful against glassy builds and while some may argue that they are broken, it is partially also a adaptation and l2p issue. The main issue I have with using condi builds myself is that it requires very little skill, very little thought and generally very few button presses to pull off and in return you deal massive damage unless its instantly cleared. There is really no trade off at all, apart from it being a passive and boring playstyle.

A part of it being so easy is of course that zerk builds melt in a split second, but i still cant get away from it being passive like trapper/stealth builds or with very few buttons to press like burn guardian, and to me its just too boring to play.

Any thoughts on why this is the case and how to change it for the better?

And yet here I am as the worst condi guardian in the world. Lost 15 of my 15 games last night as a condi guard, only won once I switched to some silly bunker bullkitten.

But seriously, OP, you’re just biased and bitter. Condi builds are no easier or harder than any other build. Pressing a button to deal 5k damage instantly is no harder than pressing a button to do 1k damage instantly and 4k damage over the next few seconds.

O(riginal)P(oster) I(n)M(y)H(umble)O(pinion) you are wrong, or at least not right in your examples:

• Condi builds are powerfull against any builds with or without toughness as long as they cannot mitigate or remove conidtions. and as many “Meta-Builds” ignore condition removal or people are not used using the the cleanses and mitigations are ignored.

• Regarding “no skillI” tend to disagree. Mostly because you need a decent build, you need to keep into consideration you yourself are a target as well escpecially if people know you are tanky conditions. You can be completely mitigated in any content with some condi removal builds (shout clean builds warrior/guardian) and other methods… leaving you with fewer stacks or NO dmg.Guard burn as your example is only 1 condition… and it’s relatively easily cleaned.

• And differenced between zerk (no toughness) or knights(toughness main) in dying to conditions? NONE whatsoever…. But with runes of hoelbrak/melandru/antitoxin and lemongrass you can remove 64% of the condi dmg instant on application (which works a bit strange which could be looked into.)

• Resistance will be usefull, or obsidian flesh and those kind of traits if they still exist

• Zerk builds will melt -allways- due to only carrying skills for DPS, not for sustain. which is not the condition user’s fault, but the fault of the zerk player.

• condi builds relying on less then 700 condition dmg (read: all builds solely relying on might for condition dmg) were actually nerfed … Most condi’s were nerfed tbh… bleeds, burning, poison all got toned down a bit or much, only we can stack 1500 stacks now… burning dmg was halved….
  But as i can get 2100 condition dmg and a decent amount of stacks (more then 3 in most cases ) on my burning guard, it can be quite powerfull. but regarding numbers burning guard, burning ranger are quite powerfull, I’m no engineer opayer but it should have seen good dps progress as well. Warrior will get a decent buff when berzerker goes live, mesmer can do some dmg (mostly due to 2450 condi dmg for a mesmer is not really difficult and clones WILL apply conditions).

• In all cases these ultra spikes are made the same way as DPS spikes. You stack stacks, might and fury, use banners and food and you mak sure your timing is right… in PVE a (SINISTER) condi guard can have a stack of (Max) 3000 condition dmg (in a very competent party) on a true spike.. If you’d bring it in wvw it will die the first shot fired though… being -glass- with -no HP pool-.

• If you hit 3 or 4 buttons with guard you have 6 maybe 8 or 9 stacks… you can get up way higher but it wil last a second if you are lucky.. also if the guard thinks: he will have fire aura, like condi warrior, making any counterattacking just stack added burning…

I’m not complaining about dying to condition builds as a player who mainly use berserker builds. I’m complaining that from my point of view, condition builds tend to be very easy to play. With mesmer I just press a bunch of buttons and then stealth away if I fail, thief I just pop back into stealth, trapper I just place em and watch, and guard – well a few buttons and then everything dies.

For me it’s just far too simplistic and passive in order for me to enjoy it,.
But ofc, no one forces me to play condi.

I actually find a condition build a lot of fun to play. Admittedly that’s in PvE and you’re talking specifically about PvP, but my main has been a condition ranger pretty much since launch. (And my second and third choices are an ele and engi, also with condition builds.)

I guess it’s just a matter of what playstyle you enjoy. I personally find purely direct damage builds (like zerker warrior) boring because basically all your skills do the same thing – apply damage, the only variety is that some skills are context sensitive…or when they also inflict conditions.

Whereas whilst conditions tend to all get lumped in together and most people are mainly/entirely interested in the ones that deal damage they actually provide a wide variety of effects and trying to find ways to apply as many as possible, or working out which ones are most useful when you inevitably encounter trade-offs, is interesting to me. Whether it’s done in advance, debating which traits and skills to take, or deciding what to use in the moment – like whether it’s worth me switching to sword/torch for more burning, or sticking with shortbow for more crowd control skills.

But speaking about the playerbase more generally I think you’ve answered your own question. For a long time most people played ‘glass canon’ beserker builds because, as long as you could dodge and move effectively, they were very easy to play and made most fights quick and simple. Now condition builds are easy to play and end fights quickly, so people are switching to that. A significant number of players are not actually looking for something challenging or complicated to play – they want to win and win easily and consistently and will play whatever seems most likely to enable that.

You on the other hand sound like you’re in the same position a lot of condition build players were until recently – your preferred playstyle may not be considered the best by most people, but it’s perfectly viable and it’s entirely up to you whether you want to stick with it and enjoy the challenge of combat or follow the crowd and enjoy easy wins.

(Either way though I recommend looking into some condition removal skills because they make a big difference – playing a ranger also means I don’t really worry about getting hit with conditions because it’s hard not to have condition removal somewhere in my build, but I know some professions have to go out of their way to get it. If you know you’re likely to be up against people who use a lot of conditions it’s well worth having a skill or trait or whatever that can strip them, better than hoping you’ll survive the damage anyway.)

Captain Unusual.9163:

And yet here I am as the worst condi guardian in the world. Lost 15 of my 15 games last night as a condi guard, only won once I switched to some silly bunker bullkitten.

But seriously, OP, you’re just biased and bitter. Condi builds are no easier or harder than any other build. Pressing a button to deal 5k damage instantly is no harder than pressing a button to do 1k damage instantly and 4k damage over the next few seconds.

Actually it is. Most condi skills are ranged. And once you apply them you can walk away and watch your enemy die while they make a futile attempt to close the distance and fight you. They might clear your condis once or twice but since condi cds are incredibly broken you’ll just reapply the condis instantly while they die without the ability to fight back. I know this because I switched to condi and do this to people because it is the only way to be competitive in PvP.

dom.2748:

Captain Unusual.9163:

And yet here I am as the worst condi guardian in the world. Lost 15 of my 15 games last night as a condi guard, only won once I switched to some silly bunker bullkitten.

But seriously, OP, you’re just biased and bitter. Condi builds are no easier or harder than any other build. Pressing a button to deal 5k damage instantly is no harder than pressing a button to do 1k damage instantly and 4k damage over the next few seconds.

Actually it is. Most condi skills are ranged. And once you apply them you can walk away and watch your enemy die while they make a futile attempt to close the distance and fight you. They might clear your condis once or twice but since condi cds are incredibly broken you’ll just reapply the condis instantly while they die without the ability to fight back. I know this because I switched to condi and do this to people because it is the only way to be competitive in PvP.

Basically this, this is truth.

I don’t think that Condition damage builds can be more easy than direct damage builds, not in all the situations.
Mesmer condi? Pop all the clones, spam confusion and torment, hide and run.
Mesmer dps? sta range, make clones, shatter, hide, repeat. If someone come to you active one of your immunity skills and flee easy still dealing damage by sword skill 2 or shatters.
I don’t see al that difference.

Guardian condition: Judge’s intervention – spam burn with PF and torch skill, wait the recharge time, repeat.
Guardian dps: JI, GS skill 5 in combo with 2 (and your berserker pg is already downed, in 2 seconds), leap, switch scepter/focus or hammer and finish him.

Ranger condi: pew pew condi by range, set trap, go melee with sword/torch if needed to fight melee stacking also a lot of burn, take distance, spam bleed again with SB.
Ranger pew pew: stay ranged with the LB and press skill 5 and 2. If you really need use the GS to end the fight in melee or more probably flee to take the distance and turn back again to shot with LB.

Frequently I see the same difficult on gamestyle in both condition and direct damage builds.
I play frequently guardian burn and necro MM (or Signet) and I see that with my guardian I need to pay more attention with my guardian condition than with my guardian dps.
With dps I use marauder and with condition I use carrion (no need of precision why I can reach 49% by myself, then I chose power to deal a little more direct damage). Then the toughness is the same and the health is more or less the same (only 2k more for carrion than marauder).
I use the same utility skills for both the build: full meditation. Sometimes I use PF but frequently is better another meditation than that skill. 3 burn can be good but more health+fury+more condition cleaned/converted is better and increase my direct damage, making no difference. (expecially why PF frequently inflict only 3 burn even if the enemy cross the firefield all the time in and out).

About playstile, There’s a very little difference between the attention you need to use the direct damage instead of the condition build.
“you can stack 15 burn and insta kill everyone with pressing only 2 buttons!!!”
What a fake!
i have much more problems dealing damage with my burn guardian than with my direct damage guardian, frequently finding me killed by my self burn (sigil of generosity and mesmers and necros skills give me back my burn) or finding me dealing no damage at all (ele diamond skin and warrior BS and Resistance), with a insane amount of condi clean a lot of classes have (ele, warrior, necro, guardians-frequently AoE cleaning all my burn-, mesmer -with the shatter traited-, rangers). The only 2 without good condi clean (with the more common builds, why they can obtain a lof of them too) can be thief and engi. But a thief with sword can kill me easy why can clean easy all my burn why I inflict only 1 condition.

That all make the life of a condi damage build user really hard!
Sometimes you can think that use a condition class is borung but frequently I have to chose wisely the timing of my skills to not lose all my damage cleand in a sec by a shout guardian or reflected back by a necromancer.

A condition class can be easy to use in spvp but it’s not easy to deal damage with it.
It is against a noob or against a berserker build without defences, but then I take my direct damage guardian and kill him faster than with my condi build.

The problem of condition damage isn’t the easy way you can active they’re skills, the problem is the timing when you active your skills. If you active them all you can shurely inflict a lot of damage before the enemy clean it but then you can’t inflict good damage at all. You have to wait and chose when active your skills to not be easy to counter and be killed in a second.

i frequently find condition guardians and eles that try to kill me when I use my cond guardian. And they all die why they use all they’re skills stacking a lot of burn that I immediatly clean, making them waste all they’re skills and unable to deal good damage.
When I use my necro is really funny fight a condition build why necro is made to counter them, making them cry when I kill them crossing the ele firefield a lot of time and reflecting 9-15 stack of burn back, melting them down in 2 seconds with they’r burn.

I don’t think that Condition is boring compared to direct damage. I find it funny. Expecially with the ranger, where you need to hit the enemy by the side with SB, use your traps and chose your pets wisely to max the condition damage. it’s funnier than use the pew pew build, that really need you to stay ranged (and flee if you can’t) and press 2222222 all the time and nothing more.

Captain Unusual.9163:

Condi builds are no easier or harder than any other build.

Since condi builds are no easier than power builds I guess that means I suddenly go from average skill to godlike when I swap from power builds that I have plenty of experience on to condi builds that I have zero experience on and then I somehow lose all that skill when I swap back then.

Or maybe my opponents suddenly forget how to play when I’m using condi and suddenly remember again when I’m on power?

Tried condi thief when I started roaming – that was during the latest phase, so post ferocity, pre 3 trait lines. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing and lost 5% of my fights. Thank god conditions became more powerful (although not the ones thief has got access to) – I swapped back to power after 1-2 weeks (and started with losing 50% of my fights).

No one pays attention to their debuffs. That’s why it’s easier to get a kill on typical casual pvpers. If you’re a ranger and you use rapid fire, people panic because you’re taking large, noticeable chunks of their life very quickly. If you’re dropping traps or lay a bonfire under them, they don’t fully realize what that means until it’s too late. 1-3 stack of burning hurts but it’s not crazy… but when they start getting 8+ they will panic and it’ll probably be too late to even cleanse that.

DoT classes have always been a sort of “fire and then micromanage” type of play style. And the fact that I watch buffs and debuffs on me and then enemy makes it much easier for me to kill bad players with conditions.

I will admit that I haven’t really bothered playing condi builds that much but it’s for the reasons OP mentioned. The playstyle itself seems significantly more passive for some classes or in general just feels like it’s stronger than it should be.

I obviously don’t share the opinion of the majority though since quite a lot of people seem to really enjoy it.

Chris McSwag.4683:

I’m not complaining about dying to condition builds as a player who mainly use berserker builds. I’m complaining that from my point of view, condition builds tend to be very easy to play. With mesmer I just press a bunch of buttons and then stealth away if I fail, thief I just pop back into stealth, trapper I just place em and watch, and guard – well a few buttons and then everything dies.

For me it’s just far too simplistic and passive in order for me to enjoy it,.
But ofc, no one forces me to play condi.

Gotcha, so your issue is with a “bunch” of buttons ?

I have 7 outta 8 80s, cause I hate ranger and deleted mine. But I can comment for you on my mes.

Usually it goes like this IF everything goes according to plan and I pull it off. Of course, I can only pull it off vs scrubs, full zerkers and otherwise incompetent players. Though I do love doing that. Vs anyone else its pretty much a good fight and I still die plenty.

So here goes:

1. Acquire Target
2. Stealth and keep an eye on the blinking buff + timer
3. Make it within range and open up with scepter 5
4. Single dodge towards (preferrably behind) my target
5. Use scepter 3
6. If target is extremely stupid use scepter 2 at point blank range and let them attack me, if not, then just AA for 1-2 shots
7. F2 shatter
8. Depends on target, if target is good like a stance war or lifesteal necro or ele putting down fields etc., then stealth and withdraw, if target is LB ranger or ranged, pop reflect.
9, Weapon swap, pop staff 4 and staff 2 if target is good / decent, staff 5 and staff 2 if target is stupid.
10. Depending on what the target is doing, pop staff 3 or dodge + restealth (pop decoy). if 2+ illusions are up, shatter F1.
11. Depending on the target and AOEs on the ground, stay kiting or pop F3 (especially on necros using DS4).
12. If target is stupid, at this point its down, kill it (stomp), if target was extremely stupid, put a clone on it, turn around and detarget, spam laugh emote and wait while the clone slowly bleeds it to death.
13. if target was a stance war, or hybrid guard or decent necro, have to start kiting.
14. Use LOS, and restealth, wait CDs if necessary but stay in combat range.
15. Weapon swap. Restart from opener.

Other things of note:

Save F4 and at minimum 1 clone / phantasm generation for it for when needed. Don’t spam F1 unless target is low health. Be mindful of offensive dodging, I often get caught without a dodge available because of this.

Use terrain, this works particularly well on stupid and extremely stupid targets, they have no clue what hit them or from where (I guess some people could call for a terrain nerf here?).

Save MI elite for team stealth, rezzes etc. Never use it in 1 v 1 for offense.

Save reflects for the obvious and use accordingly.

So this is my very simplified combat, usually it doesnt go like this and I have to go to quite the lengths. But as you see its not anymore or any less stuff to keep track of and execute even in this simplified scenario. Infact, I don’t know any other class / build in the game where keeping an eye on boon duration (when stealth is about to wear off) except maybe thief, that uses as much. I use all utility slots + all weapon slots on both weapon sets + 2 of the F skills offensively, the other 2 I keep in check and on reserve and use them accordingly. Even my stun breakers are all at minimum dual purpose and every time I use one it is usually for one of these purposses and my heal I use on LB rangers for the obvious.

thats a total of 18 buttons, 9 of which I have to decide when to blow their timers due to their dual nature.

Would you care to post what is it that you play that has so many more buttons ? and which of them are multi purpose and which boons do keep track of for split second decisions and actions ? I hope you can say more then just “might stacks” ….. cause thats a given equally for everyone.

So what is it that you play that has such a wide plethora of buttons and functions ? I could see a multi kit engi, or perhaps some of the necro builds, but otherwise …..

P.S. I forgot to add, the stupid and extremely stupid targets usually cause around 30% – 40% damage to themselves by unloading their ranged CDs while reflect is up or an extremely telegraphed block, hence they down themselves and often confuse this with condi damage taken, as they are also too stupid to check combat logs.

Tongku.5326:

snip

Taking the single most OP class this game currently has, no matter whether power or condi, might not prove your point – whatever your point was – that you have it hard because you need to faceroll 18 keys.. ok.

Jana.6831:

Tongku.5326:

snip

Taking the single most OP class this game currently has, no matter whether power or condi, might not prove your point – whatever your point was – that you have it hard because you need to faceroll 18 keys.. ok.

That was a mesmer, not a d/d ele .__.

Chris McSwag.4683:

The main issue I have with using condi builds myself is that it requires very little skill, very little thought and generally very few button presses to pull off and in return you deal massive damage unless its instantly cleared.

Oh, really?

Because it seems to me that this makes flat out 0 difference. In both cases you use skill X, with cast time Y, to apply damage Z.

The big difference is that for a condi player, Z is the same damage but lower DPS (as it takes a certain amount of seconds to deal damage), but in return ignores toughness.

That’s… mostly it. That’s all the difference there is to it.

This thread is all over the place. Please don’t talk about PvP and wvw in the same context, they are totally different.

PvP has/had some semblance of balance. Wvw is a clusterfrak of buffs and nothing that holds there should be used as an indication of class balance.

Thinking about it a bit further, perhaps the issue is high damage while maintaining high defences in regards to tough/vit and possibly other mechanics as well.

Tongku, I know how to play condi mesmer. It’s still too much “low risk-high reward” for me to enjoy it. It simply doesn’t matter much if I mess up rotations, get stunned or get outnumbered as the chance of me ending up dead is so low.

Sube Dai.8496:

This thread is all over the place. Please don’t talk about PvP and wvw in the same context, they are totally different.

Agreed, but how you play a condi/power build in pvp/wvw isnt. Im talking about(though people seem to have a hard time understanding it) the risk/reward and playstyle – not whether or not condi is op etc etc.

Conditions are easy.

Why?

Don’t need 2 offensive stats to make it super powerful.

Eg. Dire.

Power requires precision and ferocity to hit hard, while condi dmg requires 1 stat only.

Literally 0 skill required to play condition based builds, because you get 2 free stat choices which you can use to make yourself harder to kill or tick even more.

funassistant.6589:

Conditions are easy.

Why?

Don’t need 2 offensive stats to make it super powerful.

Eg. Dire.

Power requires precision and ferocity to hit hard, while condi dmg requires 1 stat only.

Literally 0 skill required to play condition based builds, because you get 2 free stat choices which you can use to make yourself harder to kill or tick even more.

Tell me how much damage do you think you do while playing dire and how much do you think you do while playing soldier??? Just because damage types seems to takes less stats (which is wrong btw condi builds require condition duration, precision and condition damage for max damage plus an extra aspect of time) it doesn’t mean that the damage is lower when both take an equal amount of stats.

funassistant.6589:

Conditions are easy.

Why?

Don’t need 2 offensive stats to make it super powerful.

That’s actually not true. Power outscales Malice per point assuming both other stats are sunk into defensive stats. I think excluding burning, which yes, was messed up in the condi change.

Chris McSwag.4683:

trapper I just place em and watch

Funny as hell when you’re /sit and don’t even need to get up.

On topic: Everyone has different playstyles and classes that suit them best, while condition application may come easy to you, it might not to others.

Dire isn’t god mode… Dire is just making DPS useless…. Dire build vs Dire will be both interesting and boring, rabid or carrion vs dire might actually even show some or a lot of skill as well.

Actually all builds having condition dmg should be capable of taking on dire builds…

As for soldiers and dire builds they will die at an equal rate if not having acces to cleansing. they both stand out the same when looking at countering DPS as well.

Only thing is Dire will kill Soldiers due to armor negation. Which is DOT’s purpose.
The thing is with Dire it you’ll be wet noodling objects… (remember the engineer turret thingies? OBJECTS!) at this time objects are the condition builds greatest enemy. Doors, barriers and so on. and skills / mechanics which can send conditions back (necro, sigil of generosity) .

Chris McSwag.4683:

But ofc, no one forces me to play condi.

Exactly!

I actually left this game before the change as the new system was going to be introduced and didn’t like the idea of reskilling 13 characters. Plus for some reason after the first beta my operating system starting crashing on occasions so decided to uninstall.

Reinstalled on Friday, found the skill system easy to setup and use and my beta character was gone, so far the operating system hasn’t crashed, I don’t expect it to either.

I actually like the changes and condi needed a buff anyway.

Purple Miku.7032:

I will admit that I haven’t really bothered playing condi builds that much but it’s for the reasons OP mentioned. The playstyle itself seems significantly more passive for some classes or in general just feels like it’s stronger than it should be.

I obviously don’t share the opinion of the majority though since quite a lot of people seem to really enjoy it.

Only since the latest major balance patch. It still seems weird to me, I spent almost 3 years defending my choice to use a condi build and persuading people to give me a chance in groups, and now all of a sudden people expect it.

As I said I don’t think it’s a coincidence at all that as soon as an update made conditions OP a lot of people started using them, and I don’t think it’s because a large chunk of the playerbase suddenly discovered a previously unrealised love for that playstyle either. I think it’s because a lot of people simply want to be playing whatever is most powerful and/or easiest to win with.

It happens in all games, whether it’s an MMO, an RTS or Pokémon (where all pokemon are divided into those which are so OP they’re banned from competitive events, those which are merely OP, and those which are never used in competitive events).

Chris McSwag.4683:

The main issue I have with using condi builds myself is that it requires very little skill, very little thought and generally very few button presses to pull off and in return you deal massive damage unless its instantly cleared. There is really no trade off at all, apart from it being a passive and boring playstyle.

A part of it being so easy is of course that zerk builds melt in a split second, but i still cant get away from it being passive like trapper/stealth builds or with very few buttons to press like burn guardian, and to me its just too boring to play.

I do not pvp or wvw but you did not specify them or pve nor did you mention a specific class. I disagree with any of them being too easy to play and survive everywhere I go but even if they are I do not see a problem with having some classes capable of a more simple play style as not every person who likes to play games can easily handle complicated numbers of buttons in some specific order. Not everyone is 18 to 25 with instant reflexes; a near zero latency & low frame rate, yet some people who are older, slower reflexes, high latency due to distance from server or whatever, would also like to be able to play & actually survive & maybe they have fun with a simpler way of playing.

No matter condi or power only the skilled people will be the winners in a battle (assuming one on one or equal numbers) so since your complaint appears centred on play being too easy, make & run a toon requiring all the complexity you desire but why complain because some types are at least playable to a satisfactory degree for those not as quick thinking or in reflexes as you may be.

Thunderbird.8036:

I do not pvp or wvw but you did not specify them or pve nor did you mention a specific class. I disagree with any of them being too easy to play and survive everywhere I go but even if they are I do not see a problem with having some classes capable of a more simple play style as not every person who likes to play games can easily handle complicated numbers of buttons in some specific order. Not everyone is 18 to 25 with instant reflexes; a near zero latency & low frame rate, yet some people who are older, slower reflexes, high latency due to distance from server or whatever, would also like to be able to play & actually survive & maybe they have fun with a simpler way of playing.

No matter condi or power only the skilled people will be the winners in a battle (assuming one on one or equal numbers) so since your complaint appears centred on play being too easy, make & run a toon requiring all the complexity you desire but why complain because some types are at least playable to a satisfactory degree for those not as quick thinking or in reflexes as you may be.

The complaint is actually based around pvp and wvw as (nearly) all rules apply to all 3 modes. And no, condi usually takes away the need for skill – as there’s not enough condi removal to avoid it. And each major patch the condi in at least wvw gets stronger, but our defenses get worse.
Btw: I stomp people who could be my children in wvw and pvp as a glassy zerker D/D thief. My computer could be better, though. Not everybody who is over 30 has got slow reflexes.

ETA: Come to think of it; It’s a pity I don’t have children: “Yo bro, don’t want to tidy up your room? 1 vs 1 me!”

Danikat.8537:

It happens in all games, whether it’s an MMO, an RTS or Pokémon (where all pokemon are divided into those which are so OP they’re banned from competitive events, those which are merely OP, and those which are never used in competitive events).

Just a nitpick, here, but Smogon is not even close to “competitive events.” You need to look up the VGC rules for that, which has no tiers. Until this past year, for example, VGC just said “no legendaries,” even though pokemon like Articuno are widely considered to be fairly bad.

Jana.6831:

Thunderbird.8036:

I do not pvp or wvw but you did not specify them or pve nor did you mention a specific class. I disagree with any of them being too easy to play and survive everywhere I go but even if they are I do not see a problem with having some classes capable of a more simple play style as not every person who likes to play games can easily handle complicated numbers of buttons in some specific order. Not everyone is 18 to 25 with instant reflexes; a near zero latency & low frame rate, yet some people who are older, slower reflexes, high latency due to distance from server or whatever, would also like to be able to play & actually survive & maybe they have fun with a simpler way of playing.

No matter condi or power only the skilled people will be the winners in a battle (assuming one on one or equal numbers) so since your complaint appears centred on play being too easy, make & run a toon requiring all the complexity you desire but why complain because some types are at least playable to a satisfactory degree for those not as quick thinking or in reflexes as you may be.

The complaint is actually based around pvp and wvw as (nearly) all rules apply to all 3 modes. And no, condi usually takes away the need for skill – as there’s not enough condi removal to avoid it. And each major patch the condi in at least wvw gets stronger, but our defenses get worse.
Btw: I stomp people who could be my children in wvw and pvp as a glassy zerker D/D thief. My computer could be better, though. Not everybody who is over 30 has got slow reflexes.

ETA: Come to think of it; It’s a pity I don’t have children: “Yo bro, don’t want to tidy up your room? 1 vs 1 me!”

I don’t get how you feel people should have enough condition removal to purge all conditions all the time? This would make a condition build worthless because they would never be able to apply damage since it would all be cleansed. That’s like saying direct damage requires no skill because eventually your opponent will run out of dodges and will not be able to avoid attacks….? It works both ways….

Jana.6831:

Thunderbird.8036:

I do not pvp or wvw but you did not specify them or pve nor did you mention a specific class. I disagree with any of them being too easy to play and survive everywhere I go but even if they are I do not see a problem with having some classes capable of a more simple play style as not every person who likes to play games can easily handle complicated numbers of buttons in some specific order. Not everyone is 18 to 25 with instant reflexes; a near zero latency & low frame rate, yet some people who are older, slower reflexes, high latency due to distance from server or whatever, would also like to be able to play & actually survive & maybe they have fun with a simpler way of playing.

No matter condi or power only the skilled people will be the winners in a battle (assuming one on one or equal numbers) so since your complaint appears centred on play being too easy, make & run a toon requiring all the complexity you desire but why complain because some types are at least playable to a satisfactory degree for those not as quick thinking or in reflexes as you may be.

The complaint is actually based around pvp and wvw as (nearly) all rules apply to all 3 modes. And no, condi usually takes away the need for skill – as there’s not enough condi removal to avoid it. And each major patch the condi in at least wvw gets stronger, but our defenses get worse.
Btw: I stomp people who could be my children in wvw and pvp as a glassy zerker D/D thief. My computer could be better, though. Not everybody who is over 30 has got slow reflexes.

ETA: Come to think of it; It’s a pity I don’t have children: “Yo bro, don’t want to tidy up your room? 1 vs 1 me!”

Condi cleanses need to be outstripped by condi application to have a remotely balanced game. If you want a match to not be one-sided or endless, offenses on both sides must outstrip their respective defenses.

And the only condi removal that has been nerfed in the last year plus has been Shadow’s Embrace. Even so, it’s still pretty good.

@Odyssey.6523: Considering dodges also work perfectly well against conditions…

^^^ Exactly. People need to realize that most conditions cannot be applied instantly, they have to be landed by a skill. If you want to avoid the conditions, avoid the skills that land them. Just like DD some skills are more important to avoid than others. Auto-attacks that land a condition usually apply bleeds, which aren’t nearly as important as a guardian using whirling wrath in a fire field.

At the end of the day if skill A applies 1000 DD, and skill B applies 500 DD and applies 1 bleed at 100 damage for 5 seconds, Skill A and Skill B apply the same exact damage. The difference is, Skill B has a chance to be mitigated by cleansing the condition before the end of those 5 seconds, where as Skill A, if it hits, gets the full 1000 damage.

I’m playing wvw for now 1,5 years – condi is easier applied than removed – condi removal has got a cooldown as well, you know? And condi builds do physical damage on top of that.
So please, don’t pretend I don’t know how to play – I don’t care the slightest what you’re doing in pve – and to be honest; condis should’ve always had a place in this game right from the start – I just don’t agree with “condis becoming more and more powerful in pvp/wvw whereas condi removal gets nerfed/stays the same”

Edit: And before you claim that the game is just fine the way it is because condi builds would do no damage if condi removal was improved: Go to wvw as a power build and fight some condi builds.

I agree. Condi is boring because they get killed all the time. Dying is boring.

Jana.6831:

I’m playing wvw for now 1,5 years – condi is easier applied than removed – condi removal has got a cooldown as well, you know? And condi builds do physical damage on top of that.
So please, don’t pretend I don’t know how to play – I don’t care the slightest what you’re doing in pve – and to be honest; condis should’ve always had a place in this game right from the start – I just don’t agree with “condis becoming more and more powerful in pvp/wvw whereas condi removal gets nerfed/stays the same”

Edit: And before you claim that the game is just fine the way it is because condi builds would do no damage if condi removal was improved: Go to wvw as a power build and fight some condi builds.

I do so all the time. I roam with Zealot’s Necro and ‘zerker Ranger. Condi builds get eaten for breakfast. Why? Because I time my cleanses properly and don’t neglect basic defensive measures just because they aren’t hitting me for big numbers up front.

Everyone in WvW is aiming to kill you. Figuring out how they plan to do that within a couple of seconds is key to success.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I do so all the time. I roam with Zealot’s Necro and ‘zerker Ranger. Condi builds get eaten for breakfast. Why? Because I time my cleanses properly and don’t neglect basic defensive measures just because they aren’t hitting me for big numbers up front.

Everyone in WvW is aiming to kill you. Figuring out how they plan to do that within a couple of seconds is key to success.

So you have more problems with power builds than with condis? Although Necros have got a pretty nice condi cleanse and themselves access to enough condis, no matter whether power or condi build – same with rangers – although I don’t know about their condi cleanse.

Jana.6831:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I do so all the time. I roam with Zealot’s Necro and ‘zerker Ranger. Condi builds get eaten for breakfast. Why? Because I time my cleanses properly and don’t neglect basic defensive measures just because they aren’t hitting me for big numbers up front.

Everyone in WvW is aiming to kill you. Figuring out how they plan to do that within a couple of seconds is key to success.

So you have more problems with power builds than with condis? Although Necros have got a pretty nice condi cleanse and themselves access to enough condis, no matter whether power or condi build – same with rangers – although I don’t know about their condi cleanse.

Ranger condi cleanse is all tied to one of two Grandmaster traits, both in Wilderness Survival. I chose Survival of the Fittest, but Survival skills are good enough on their own that I don’t feel like I’m being limited by using them. Necro condi application in Power builds is debilitating, usually Chill, Cripple, or Weakness.

As for having more problems with Power builds, it depends on the spec. Hammer warriors tend to be a pain for each, as the Ranger dies too quickly to down them and my Necro spends too much time CC’d. Shatter burst Mesmer is more dangerous to my Ranger than any condition build unless I manage to time GS4 well. Then it’s still dangerous, but I have a shot at winning.

Backstab Thieves, though, tend to end up being funny. Especially on my Ranger. Eating a Maul from stealth usually ends the fight pretty quick.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ranger condi cleanse is all tied to one of two Grandmaster traits, both in Wilderness Survival. I chose Survival of the Fittest, but Survival skills are good enough on their own that I don’t feel like I’m being limited by using them. Necro condi application in Power builds is debilitating, usually Chill, Cripple, or Weakness.

As for having more problems with Power builds, it depends on the spec. Hammer warriors tend to be a pain for each, as the Ranger dies too quickly to down them and my Necro spends too much time CC’d. Shatter burst Mesmer is more dangerous to my Ranger than any condition build unless I manage to time GS4 well. Then it’s still dangerous, but I have a shot at winning.

Backstab Thieves, though, tend to end up being funny. Especially on my Ranger. Eating a Maul from stealth usually ends the fight pretty quick.

Alright, so the reason why you’re writing on this topic is to tell us what for a great player you are – good for you Has got nothing to do with the actual topic though.

Anyone done any sinister vs dire dueling?

I’d like to put this “dire is ezymode” crap to bed once and for all.

If condition damage/stat distrubution is balanced then petition Anet to add a dire amulet to PvP please

Soldiers is in PvP and not dire.

Perplexity is balanced I’ve been told, add that also… Oh wait….

So many comments. Constructive discussions certainly can get interesting. Chris McSwag.4683 I offer my apology for missing that you did indicate pvp/wvw. I respect your opinion or right to say it and am also happy Jana.6831 has good reflexes at his age 30+ as indicated. Not offering argument here but I am near double that, my mind and reflexes are slower hence no pvp etc. and I speak to players who have 10+ years on me in the game. Oh and if anyone is about my age and king of pvp please do not bother putting me down for not being as good. It is a bit like putting down a terminally ill person just for being terminally ill. But if it gets you off to do that I guess go for it.

Also Jana.6831 I may have missed the part where anyone said you do not know how to play. I am not sure who that was intended for. I will not argue that Condi or Power is better as I have a fondness to both even though I am not real good with either. But I think my main point was I enjoy playing the game on a simpler play style and if Anet took up the challenge to make all play styles really difficult only real pros could get enjoyment out of the game.

Many better players than myself have put forward valid & even opposing points about which is better or more fairly in my opinion, both have benefits and counter measures depending on the scenario. I will put forward a point however a number of very good pvp/wvw players have often mentioned in my hearing that possibly pvp/wvw should be treated differently to pve like some different stats or traits or whatever so what affects one good or bad does not impact on the other.

I know this would mean more work for Anet & expect the idea might attract a lot of criticism, but it is just an idea, not originating from me but one that might allow the difficulties pvp/wvw people like. Not saying pve people do not also enjoy challenging play styles. It is nice to think though that the game does not have to be so elite though as to exclude less skilful players.
Personally I think the game is pretty balanced overall ( well actually I would like to be able to do more damage & survive more than I do) allowing for choices in play style and if it is not just play the class you are most happy with, or you currently consider the strongest. And by all means start a thread and share an opinion just like Chris McSwag did, love it or hate it.

PS: Tongku I loved your Mes fight style walk through. I will save and re read it.

Thunderbird.8036:

am also happy Jana.6831 has good reflexes at his age 30+ as indicated. Not offering argument here but I am near double that, my mind and reflexes are slower hence no pvp etc.

Her age. It’s a bit more than 30 And I’m aware that there are people who’s reflexes aren’t that good, but I don’t think that age alone is the reason – a lot of people might think so, though.

Thunderbird.8036:

Also Jana.6831 I may have missed the part where anyone said you do not know how to play.

I was answering the bulk of you who claimed that condition builds require as much skill as power builds. I didn’t neccessarily just answer you. In PvE skill doesn’t really matter (as long as there’s some people who know what they’re doing and who pull “you” through).

Thunderbird.8036:

But I think my main point was I enjoy playing the game on a simpler play style and if Anet took up the challenge to make all play styles really difficult only real pros could get enjoyment out of the game.

That’s all good and in PvE all power to you players – but competitive play is something different and that’s when condi builds “shine”.

Thunderbird.8036:

possibly pvp/wvw should be treated differently to pve like some different stats or traits or whatever so what affects one good or bad does not impact on the other.

That would be both good and bad and a huge problem for anet and for the players.
I play all aspects of this game, mainly wvw. Before June patch I ran one build in all 3 modes – I knew how it worked. But it didn’t/doesn’t work in pvp as pvp had/has different rules for my spec. You know revealed, the debuff of thieves (or anyone who was stealthed and attacked from stealth)? During this time they can’t stealth again. It’s 3 seconds in wvw/pve, 4 seconds in pvp – I can’t get used to the 4 seconds as the 3 seconds are intuition. Also I have now 2 different builds in wvw and pve which leads to troubles in the other game mode because I forget that I can’t jump down from that mountain or forget that I won’t immobilize this enemy. Not as bad as the 4s though.
The other problem would be for anet: All classes need to be balanced in all game modes as if they don’t do it, certain classes would be excluded from content – so ideally you want all classes to be equally strong, even in pve. So if they separated all game modes they’d have to balance each mode separately as well and that would be a lot of work. To be honest; their method of balancing everything by observing pvp did work. Only problem I had was that they forgot about wvw and condis.
So, in my opinion the easiest way to “balance” right now is to have a look at the means of condi removal – that way you won’t interfere with PvE too much as you don’t really need to remove condis in PvE and help those who are into pvp/wvw. You will be as strong against mobs but less strong against other players who still have to use their brain to remove what you throw at them. In most cases, if it’s passive condi removal, then not.

Thunderbird.8036:

Personally I think the game is pretty balanced overall ( well actually I would like to be able to do more damage & survive more than I do) allowing for choices in play style and if it is not just play the class you are most happy with, or you currently consider the strongest. And by all means start a thread and share an opinion just like Chris McSwag did, love it or hate it.

In PvE it probably is, yes and I’m already playing the class I love the most – against all odds in my preferred game mode.

It is pretty boring to fight condition specs. They have terrible ramp up times. If they do manage to actually get any conditions on you you can negate 100% of their damage with a single button, and then you just burst them down in 2-3 seconds while they can do nothing to stop you.

The exception being burn guardians who have pretty good burst, but a single condition transfer makes them melt like a snowball in hell. Not all that exciting, but pretty funny to watch.

Hopefully the devs make conditions more rewarding for their complicated rotations, and long ramp up times.

Jana.6831:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Ranger condi cleanse is all tied to one of two Grandmaster traits, both in Wilderness Survival. I chose Survival of the Fittest, but Survival skills are good enough on their own that I don’t feel like I’m being limited by using them. Necro condi application in Power builds is debilitating, usually Chill, Cripple, or Weakness.

As for having more problems with Power builds, it depends on the spec. Hammer warriors tend to be a pain for each, as the Ranger dies too quickly to down them and my Necro spends too much time CC’d. Shatter burst Mesmer is more dangerous to my Ranger than any condition build unless I manage to time GS4 well. Then it’s still dangerous, but I have a shot at winning.

Backstab Thieves, though, tend to end up being funny. Especially on my Ranger. Eating a Maul from stealth usually ends the fight pretty quick.

Alright, so the reason why you’re writing on this topic is to tell us what for a great player you are – good for you Has got nothing to do with the actual topic though.

No, the reason is to demonstrate that with proper build and play, condis aren’t any more or less difficult to deal with than any other build. You don’t have to play condi to beat them, just play a balanced (on defenses) build halfway decently. Big part is to use the active defenses you use against Power builds instead of ignoring them because you don’t see big numbers immedietly.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

It is pretty boring to fight condition specs. They have terrible ramp up times. If they do manage to actually get any conditions on you you can negate 100% of their damage with a single button, and then you just burst them down in 2-3 seconds while they can do nothing to stop you.

The exception being burn guardians who have pretty good burst, but a single condition transfer makes them melt like a snowball in hell. Not all that exciting, but pretty funny to watch.

Hopefully the devs make conditions more rewarding for their complicated rotations, and long ramp up times.

There are condition specs that include counter play skills as well. Heh. But I get what you’re saying. I 99% play condi and I have maybe died to condi once and that was because I was relying on a bunker guard to cleanse me and it didn’t happen… Hahah

Jana.6831:

I’m playing wvw for now 1,5 years – condi is easier applied than removed – condi removal has got a cooldown as well, you know? And condi builds do physical damage on top of that.

Point of note: Power damage is more easily applied than removed, too.
And more importantly, it doesn’t need any time post-application to actually deal damage.

I mean if I had to guess why power vs condition is such a big issue in GW2, I would have 4 points which work together:

• Most MMORPGs treat DoTs as second-class damage abilities. That is to say, you apply DoTs, and then “fill in” between that with some nuke or other spammable ability. DoTs are never your “main” damage skill, though they might deal the bigger part of your damage. GW2 uses DoTs as a main attack type, a spammed skill, just like direct damage. Weird.
• DoTs are traditionally long in duration though very very superior to DD in damage. But the long duration (18+ seconds or so) means it’s never a surprise to die from a DoT. You got plenty time to process the DoTs on you and react. GW2 doesn’t have this, DoTs are very short comparing other games, dealing their damage only marginally slower than direct damage attacks.
• GW2 has a downed state. In other games, your DoTs killing the enemy after you died is of comparatively little benefit to you, you’re still dead. In GW2, you get back up if they do that, which is … weird, from the perspective of DoT-balance.
• DoTs traditionally scale mostly with the exact same stat as power damage, as a result the relative comparison is completely pointless and instead class-vs-class comparisons are made. In GW2 we got separate scaling and hence while I can choose to spec into either they are too similar to avoid having to directly compare them.

If I were to “try again”, I’d do this:

• Make DoTs much slower.
• Make DoTs much stronger.
• Re-instate some of the more complex differences. Burning only 1 stack per player for example, extending in duration, in turn the damage is by far higher than other DoTs.
• Remove most cleanse in its current form.
• Cleanses are self-only, or if they can be applied to other players and/or are AE, they target a specific DoT type. Say Water AE cleansing extinguishes Burning.

That way DoTs would be supplementary damage. Taking 20+ seconds to tick per stack of bleeding means it’s of no direct danger to a target, though that bleed deals the damage of a single direct hit, is rapidly applied, and since cleanses are rare they better worry about it.

Would be too big a change to do in a live game , though.