Guild Wars 2

I’ve always thought it perverse that the only way to acquire cloth is from salvaging.

We can harvest plants to eat, but not plants to make clothes. Similarly we can harvest leather from animals but not silk (spiders, grubs etc.).

And yes the cost of silk is getting crazy. I’m not going to buy it. Best I can manage is about enough to do two ecto refinements a week.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

dietzero.3514:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

dietzero.3514:

It actually IS at the heart of silk going back up. People are once again competing over the diminished supply to make Damask.

What’s wrong with a little competition? It’s completely healthy for a market to have some.

Thanks for the irrelevant post.

Not sure how it’s irrelevant, as this whole thread is basically an economic discussion.

It is irrelevant to what you quoted.

Ensign.2189:

If you want to make the argument for 3), asymmetry in material requirements, argue for increasing the requirements of mithril ore, elder wood, and thick leather to 300 as well so it isn’t easy to dismiss as another flavor of argument 1).

This is what I have been saying. The people who are arguing for logical pricing for the different tiers of mats are calling for it too. I know ohoni has mentioned he wanted t5 mats to cost more than t4 mats earlier.

Ohoni.6057:

Like I said, nobody is expecting them to be micromanaged to the point that they retain an absolute fixed price, but would it be too much to ask that a system be maintained in which the following is always true (aside from brief corrective swings):

Within a single material type: T6>T5>T4>T3>T2>T1

The real problem is leather. It is way under valued and underutilized

Ensign.2189:

Zenguy.6421:

John Smith.4610:

Sounds to me like two independent issues being discussed.
1. Aggregate price for silk and market velocity
2. Farming for individual mats is hard

John,
You’ve twice asserted that there are two issues being discussed here.

Is there a reason why your list doesn’t include the issue that *it takes twice as much silk as the other Tier 5 mats to make ascended materials, even though this issue is a) clearly being discussed here and b) at the heart of the changes in the silk price?

He isn’t listing it because while a) is true, b) is not.

It’s an issue of optics. They could double the requirements of mithril, elder wood, and thick leather as well, but I suspect that would have only a minimal impact on ascended armor prices or silk prices.

There’s a case for symmetry in the crafting requirements from an optics perspective, but that’s rarely being made; the asymmetry is being used to legitimize the argument that the price of silk is too high, which is John’s point 1).

If you want to make the argument for 3), asymmetry in material requirements, argue for increasing the requirements of mithril ore, elder wood, and thick leather to 300 as well so it isn’t easy to dismiss as another flavor of argument 1).

B) is strictly speaking true.
The main reason silk has a value of 2-3 silver is the ascended formula.
That may not be the main reason that it went down, but its the reason its crawling back up to reach its former equillibrium.

but really if anyone actually read The OP, and not just the title, its clear this thread is about the price of silk and its relation ship to damask, and ascended crafting. As well as a disparity between mats

Shiyo.3578:

Can you please change it to only needing 2 scraps per refinement and not needing 100 per ascended material instead of the 50 every other mat requires? The price of silk is going up AGAIN and there’s no reason for a single ascended mat to be 4x the price of the other ones.

Ohoni.6057:

Well, remember, there’s farming and then there’s farming. With resources like metal and wood, you can actually harvest it, guaranteed 3+ units per node you see, maps with specific node locations, boom boom boom, resources. With things like silk, there’s always RNG. Yes, there are places you can go where you are very likely to get large amounts of silk over a given period of time, as large amounts of trash mobs spawn that have a solid chance of dropping silk, but it’s still pretty variable and takes more effort (not that effort is necessarily a bad thing, but relative effort needed should always be considered).

I believe I went on to explain what farming entailed in this case ^.^; But yes, I do agree that in the case of silk, it’s all RNG. There’s not really any reliable method to gather cloths like there is to gather metals or woods.

As for the tip to farm SW, I have done enough SW to get all my lumi and then some. I don’t generally get into decent maps for the place. Not to mention 90% of the items I get are weapons, leather or heavy. Even forging stuff, it’s less stressful and more efficient to just farm T5 only bags and salvagables that drop silk and linen, especially since neither activity is very interesting to me. I guess I could tally which is more efficient in the end: 5 SW runs, or the same time spent farming.

dietzero.3514:

Wanze.8410:

Ohoni.6057:

It is at the heart of the change in silk price, the long term change from pennies to silvers. It is not responsible for the short term fluctuations.

The OP was talking about silk prices going back up again, stating in january, after they basically lost value for 4 months before.

The change to 3 scraps was made more than 15 months ago.
So it is possible for silk to loose value while needing 3 scraps for refinement.

Therefore, that change cant be at the heart of the recent price change.

It actually IS at the heart of silk going back up. People are once again competing over the diminished supply to make Damask.

Thanks for the irrelevant post.

I bolded, what IS at the heart of silk going back up.

For those that say SW is not a quick method to gather Silk without also gathering excessive amounts of Elder Logs and Mithril, I present to you these number. These are from salvage only(no node gathering) and with comparison to Mithril and Elder Logs. These numbers are from opening 50 Heirloom Seed Pouches and salvaging what ever came out of them:

• Silk – 101 pcs
• Elder Logs – 49 pcs
• Mithril – 27 pcs

I can and probably will get the same or more from opening another 50 Seed pouches as well as Embroidered Coin Purses…and that’s with having 1000 storage capacity, not even max, of both raw and refined materials full. I already have enough of each refined to fully fill up a max storage at 1500 each if I wanted to increase my capacity to that amount.

Zaklex.6308:

For those that say SW is not a quick method to gather Silk without also gathering excessive amounts of Elder Logs and Mithril, I present to you these number. These are from salvage only(no node gathering) and with comparison to Mithril and Elder Logs. These numbers are from opening 50 Heirloom Seed Pouches and salvaging what ever came out of them:

• Silk – 101 pcs
• Elder Logs – 49 pcs
• Mithril – 27 pcs

I can and probably will get the same or more from opening another 50 Seed pouches as well as Embroidered Coin Purses…and that’s with having 1000 storage capacity, not even max, of both raw and refined materials full. I already have enough of each refined to fully fill up a max storage at 1500 each if I wanted to increase my capacity to that amount.

Out of curiosity, what class were you playing?

Zaklex.6308:

For those that say SW is not a quick method to gather Silk without also gathering excessive amounts of Elder Logs and Mithril, I present to you these number. These are from salvage only(no node gathering) and with comparison to Mithril and Elder Logs. These numbers are from opening 50 Heirloom Seed Pouches and salvaging what ever came out of them:

• Silk – 101 pcs
• Elder Logs – 49 pcs
• Mithril – 27 pcs

I can and probably will get the same or more from opening another 50 Seed pouches as well as Embroidered Coin Purses…and that’s with having 1000 storage capacity, not even max, of both raw and refined materials full. I already have enough of each refined to fully fill up a max storage at 1500 each if I wanted to increase my capacity to that amount.

your saying a lot of things, but they arent connecting
what does your storage capacity have to do with drop rates?
What are you saying is the relationship between seed pouches and embroidered pouches?
Are you saying that leather armor is not on the drop table for seed pouch?

Im not sure what your data is supposed to illustrate

eithinan.9841:

The real problem is leather. It is way under valued and underutilized

It’s not undervalued, it just doesn’t have much of a use and the market it failing. I agree that thick leather is the market to tweak, not cloth.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

dietzero.3514:

It actually IS at the heart of silk going back up. People are once again competing over the diminished supply to make Damask.

What’s wrong with a little competition? It’s completely healthy for a market to have some.

What is healthy for the market as a whole doesn’t need to be beneficial for the individual people. This is the case here – while the silk situation may be market working right, it causes consequences that go well beyond economical ones, and that hurt individual people.

Some people defending the situation try to keep the whole discussion wholly within the field of economics, but the truth is that most people that are complaining do not care if the market system is working perfectly well. It still results in destroying their fun in the game. Purely economical arguments are likely to fly over their heads, because they do not even try to address the core of the concerns.

What’s wrong with a little competition? It’s completely healthy for a market to have some.

I share dietzero’s sentiments, but I’ll treat this as if it is a serious statement. Yes, a little competition is healthy, but certain aspects of the ingame economy are a little too competitive for a game that, outside of the economy, is based around community and cooperation and “every other player can only make your game experience better.” There’s absolutely nothing wrong with GW2’s economy IF it were in another game based on cutthroat PvP or hardcore endgame raider elitism, but it seems tonally very out of place with the rest of what GW2 is.

A little competition is fine, but GW2’s economic competition is a little too competitive to be in GW2 PvE.

It’s an issue of optics. They could double the requirements of mithril, elder wood, and thick leather as well, but I suspect that would have only a minimal impact on ascended armor prices or silk prices.

Why do you believe this? I mean, assuming they also implemented plans designed to reduce stockpiles so that all three mat types started at equal supply footing, what do you believe is the main driver behind cloth’s relatively higher pricing, if not that it is used in considerably higher quantities than other materials? Sure, there’s the supply issue, and that counts for the difference between silk and mithril, but the difference between silk and leather is entirely demand-side.

And again, the price of silk may not be “too high,” but if it isn’t, then the price of various other mats are certainly “too low.” Everything is relative, but the price of silk is not currently in balance with the price of various other ostensibly equivalent, lesser, or greater materials.

The real problem is leather. It is way under valued and underutilized

Yeah, and it’s more the latter than the former. Players have priced leather right, for what you can do with it, the problem is that you can’t do much with it. Cloth is used in all armors , leather is only used in leather and cloth armors (and less of it since the sigs are always cloth), so cloth will be more valuable than leather. Metal is only used in metal armors, but it’s also used in weapons, which keeps the price higher. Wood has similar issues to leather, since it is only used in some weapons.

One way to help raise leather to parity would be to use Leather as a secondary component of Heavy Armor instead of cloth. Then the three armor types would be L/c, M/l, C/l. Then, even if they all require cloth for sigs, they would at least all require leather as well.

It’s not undervalued, it just doesn’t have much of a use and the market it failing. I agree that thick leather is the market to tweak, not cloth.

My opinion is that they should do both. They should bring leather up and knock cloth down a bit, and do a better job of balancing out the tiers so that there is a reasonably smooth curve to it. Maybe keep the Ascended mat recipes that require lower tier mats, but reduce the amount needed so that the prices are higher than back before Ascended crafting, but not quite as high as now. And add in more value to T6 cloth/leather, more useful things to do with them, perhaps add them into the Ascended mats recipes (it’s a bit silly that the top tier armor has no use for the “top tier mats.”

Purely economical arguments are likely to fly over their heads, because they do not even try to address the core of the concerns.

Yes, the economy serves the players, not the other way around. If the economy is perfectly healthy but the players are not satisfied with it, then it is failing at its job, like a restaurant serving perfectly healthy meals that nobody enjoys eating. You can even argue that some people really like how the economy currently functions, but that would be like a cafeteria that is the only place people on a campus can get any food, but only serves meals that a tiny portion of the campus enjoys. The economy needs to work for the largest possible group of players, not the economy-simulator crowds.

Ohoni.6057:

It’s an issue of optics. They could double the requirements of mithril, elder wood, and thick leather as well, but I suspect that would have only a minimal impact on ascended armor prices or silk prices.

Why do you believe this?

Leather is sufficiently unused in crafting that even with a doubling of leather requirements I suspect the supply would still overwhelm demand even at the vendor price. This market needs much bigger changes if the price is going to move for reasons other than speculation.

Mithril and elder wood are consumed in huge quantities to make rares for the forge, and are produced in similarly huge quantities from salvaging and harvesting. The amount used to create mithrillium and spirit wood is dwarfed by its usage in the precursor market, or so I suspect. Again, doubling the requirement of mithril and elder wood probably wouldn’t move the price on those very much, as ascended crafting is a much smaller proportion of the demand for these materials, and the supply is highly elastic with price due to harvesting.

Without economy shattering alterations I don’t believe ascended crafting an move any of the common T5 materials significantly.

Leather is sufficiently unused in crafting that even with a doubling of leather requirements I suspect the supply would still overwhelm demand even at the vendor price. This market needs much bigger changes if the price is going to move for reasons other than speculation.

Maybe. But since natural supply of leather and cloth are roughly equal (and in reality the cloth supply is way higher because people currently choose to go after it while discarding leather), why do you believe cloth prices are way higher than leather, aside from that many more recipes call for it and more is needed to fill those recipes? You account for why metal/wood are higher, and that makes sense, but why would cloth be higher than any of those things, when the only thing it is good for is armoring? If you allowed people to make insignia from metal/leather, and maybe even Shadow of Grenth/Light of Dwayna, and once excess supply is removed from the economy, don’t you believe that the prices would stabilize?

Without economy shattering alterations I don’t believe ascended crafting an move any of the common T5 materials significantly.

Perhaps. But perhaps “economy shattering” alterations, like the addition of Ascended crafting, is what is needed. There should be more “evergreen” recipes for materials like leather.

Man if you guys spent as much time playing the game as you did telling people silk is too expensive you could have finished getting all the silk you needed weeks ago.

It reminds me of those wall street protesters. If they spent as much time studying as they did sitting in tents protesting then they would have all the money they need from their high paying job.

There are plenty of ways to get cloth, and plenty of ways to earn gold. Combine the two and you’ll be able to easily get a damask a day. This thread will last longer than the amount of time it takes you to finish your ascended armor.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Man if you guys spent as much time playing the game as you did telling people silk is too expensive you could have finished getting all the silk you needed weeks ago.

It reminds me of those wall street protesters. If they spent as much time studying as they did sitting in tents protesting then they would have all the money they need from their high paying job.

There are plenty of ways to get cloth, and plenty of ways to earn gold. Combine the two and you’ll be able to easily get a damask a day. This thread will last longer than the amount of time it takes you to finish your ascended armor.

Right now the discussion is more on how the material market has reacted to the introduction of ascended armor.

The price for silk is right as dictated by new supply, current realistic demand (a 10c bid isn’t realistic), the wealth of players looking to buy it, etc. That’s the miracle of “the market”. “The market” matches true demand with true supply by adjusting the price until demand at a particular price equals supply. It’s going up simply because the influx of silk from Wintersday is now over. So the price is rising to lower the effective demand to match the supply coming in.

The use of cloth as padding in medium and heavy armor does make sense from a practical and historical sense. Yes this is a fantasy game but wood swords don’t cut down your enemies and you aren’t going to pad your armor with leather either.

Best idea I’ve seen is altering the insignia recipe to use less damask and add elonian leather. Two birds with one stone.

Still not going to happen. Maybe they’ll add a whip in HoT that needs leather to craft and so the ascended version will need ascended leather. Maybe glider wings but I’m expecting cloth for those.

The price for silk is right as dictated by new supply, current realistic demand (a 10c bid isn’t realistic), the wealth of players looking to buy it, etc. That’s the miracle of “the market”. “The market” matches true demand with true supply by adjusting the price until demand at a particular price equals supply. It’s going up simply because the influx of silk from Wintersday is now over. So the price is rising to lower the effective demand to match the supply coming in.

Right, and I think most people involved in this discussion do understand that, if not going in then at least by now. The argument isn’t one of ignorance of this fact, but rather of a difference of opinion between those that believe that the current natural level is acceptable, and those who do not. We would like to see changes made that would lower the natural level.

The use of cloth as padding in medium and heavy armor does make sense from a practical and historical sense. Yes this is a fantasy game but wood swords don’t cut down your enemies and you aren’t going to pad your armor with leather either.

The crafting process is already extremely streamlined. You might not pad armor with leather, but you might use it as a protective mid-layer, or for fasteners. You would also be likely to make use of leather in most weapons, for the grips, for example, yet none is used in the game’s recipes because all weapons are X metal + Y wood (either potentially being zero). The crafting process used very simple calculations of everything taking one of X and one of Y, and each of those uses a little of A and a little of B, when in reality different types of armor would use wildly varying amounts of metal, cloth, and leather.

If it would make economic/game design sense to move from metal armors needing “leather backings” instead of “cloth padding,” then the lore of it could adapt well enough.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Man if you guys spent as much time playing the game as you did telling people silk is too expensive you could have finished getting all the silk you needed weeks ago.

It reminds me of those wall street protesters. If they spent as much time studying as they did sitting in tents protesting then they would have all the money they need from their high paying job.

There are plenty of ways to get cloth, and plenty of ways to earn gold. Combine the two and you’ll be able to easily get a damask a day. This thread will last longer than the amount of time it takes you to finish your ascended armor.

You can think getting silk isnt that hard
but thats not really the crux of the issue.
Why do silk users have to work objectively harder for the same results, as other classes

i mean no one NEEDS equality in a game, they could just make levels 75-80 take twice as long for cloth users. And yeah they could just grind harder. But why should they have to?

Ok, simple answer is: It’s the economy!
That’s all there is to it, some legendary weapons require more expensive materials that others… But that’s just tough! If you want it, you’ll work for it! Sometimes you’ll get them cheaper and sometimes they will go up in price… It’s just down to demand.

I don’t see what you aim to achieve with this post, ANET will not revise the cost of ascended items just because prices on certain materials have gone up. If you are so opposed to paying that much… Then wait for the price to go down!

Can we close this post now?

Coopziana.1802:

Ok, simple answer is: It’s the economy!
That’s all there is to it, some legendary weapons require more expensive materials that others… But that’s just tough! If you want it, you’ll work for it! Sometimes you’ll get them cheaper and sometimes they will go up in price… It’s just down to demand.

I don’t see what you aim to achieve with this post, ANET will not revise the cost of ascended items just because prices on certain materials have gone up. If you are so opposed to paying that much… Then wait for the price to go down!

Can we close this post now?

you havent really looked at the issue eh?
keep in mind this gear offers a stat advantage

and key is that it requires more materials to achieve the same purpose,

to make it simpler,
imagine instead of needing experience for the last 3 levels, you needed to collect

• 1000 mithril if you are a heavy +1000 silk
• 1500 leather if you are medium user +1000 silk
• 4000 silk if you are light user.

as you can see, for those same last 3 levels, light needs more materials than the other two combined. Not only that but since silk is needed by everyone, there will be more competition for that resource, meaning it will probably cost more.

*

phys.7689:

Coopziana.1802:

Ok, simple answer is: It’s the economy!
That’s all there is to it, some legendary weapons require more expensive materials that others… But that’s just tough! If you want it, you’ll work for it! Sometimes you’ll get them cheaper and sometimes they will go up in price… It’s just down to demand.

I don’t see what you aim to achieve with this post, ANET will not revise the cost of ascended items just because prices on certain materials have gone up. If you are so opposed to paying that much… Then wait for the price to go down!

Can we close this post now?

you havent really looked at the issue eh?
keep in mind this gear offers a stat advantage

and key is that it requires more materials to achieve the same purpose,

to make it simpler,
imagine instead of needing experience for the last 3 levels, you needed to collect

• 1000 mithril if you are a heavy +1000 silk
• 1500 leather if you are medium user +1000 silk
• 4000 silk if you are light user.

as you can see, for those same last 3 levels, light needs more materials than the other two combined. Not only that but since silk is needed by everyone, there will be more competition for that resource, meaning it will probably cost more.

*

What about the warrior, who needs more weaons crafted than the engie?
What about the player, who plays and Ele, Warrior and Thief and has to craft 3 different sets, while someone who plays all the light classes only has to craft one and can share it between his alts?

Its still fair to ALL PLAYERS because nobody has to pay more than the other for gearing the same class with the same equipment.

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Coopziana.1802:

Ok, simple answer is: It’s the economy!
That’s all there is to it, some legendary weapons require more expensive materials that others… But that’s just tough! If you want it, you’ll work for it! Sometimes you’ll get them cheaper and sometimes they will go up in price… It’s just down to demand.

I don’t see what you aim to achieve with this post, ANET will not revise the cost of ascended items just because prices on certain materials have gone up. If you are so opposed to paying that much… Then wait for the price to go down!

Can we close this post now?

you havent really looked at the issue eh?
keep in mind this gear offers a stat advantage

and key is that it requires more materials to achieve the same purpose,

to make it simpler,
imagine instead of needing experience for the last 3 levels, you needed to collect

• 1000 mithril if you are a heavy +1000 silk
• 1500 leather if you are medium user +1000 silk
• 4000 silk if you are light user.

as you can see, for those same last 3 levels, light needs more materials than the other two combined. Not only that but since silk is needed by everyone, there will be more competition for that resource, meaning it will probably cost more.

*

What about the warrior, who needs more weaons crafted than the engie?
What about the player, who plays and Ele, Warrior and Thief and has to craft 3 different sets, while someone who plays all the light classes only has to craft one and can share it between his alts?

Its still fair to ALL PLAYERS because nobody has to pay more than the other for gearing the same class with the same equipment.

warrior weapons after the first two are horizontal progression. You are not weaker than an ele in a dungeon or fight, not weaker in WvW, and not weaker in a dungeon.

getting more charachters who can use your ascended is also horizontal progression, it doesnt make you stronger in any fight. Also note, as of HOT every ascended will be useful for 3 classes.

being fair to the owner of the game doesnt really come into this. By your definition balance between classes is totally unimportant, because any player can select any class.

So would it be good if warriors could destroy bosses with one hit, because everyone can choose to level a warrior? The same logic applies here.

now im not saying there needs to be no balance on horizontal progression, but that is a different issue.
I personally would have no objections to them adding more weapons to other classes, because that is more actual options having to do extra work for more options is different than having to do more work for the SAME power.

What about the warrior, who needs more weaons crafted than the engie?

The Warrior doesn’t need any more weapons than the Engie, he just has the option of having more. No character in the game needs more than two one-handers or one two-hander, or at most double that if you insist on weapon swapping. Anything else you’re just being fancy. My warrior has two “quality” weapons that I actually put some effort into, and the rest are random junkittenep around just in case I need one of the skills for something. I recently did at least get several Exotic weapons to add to her inventory, since the Ambrite collection left me with a bunch of them.

What about the player, who plays and Ele, Warrior and Thief and has to craft 3 different sets,

I have nine level 80s, the player who plays all three armor classes is as hurt by more expensive cloth armors as anyone, and a solution that balances all their prices would benefit him.

And sharing armor between three characters, while possible, is a huge hassle that I would never even consider attempting. If you have three light armor characters, you want three full sets of light ascended armor. The only real benefit is that maybe you can get three different varieties of it and swap those around occasionally.

Its still fair to ALL PLAYERS because nobody has to pay more than the other for gearing the same class with the same equipment.

This is a completely nonsense position.

Wanze.8410:

dietzero.3514:

Wanze.8410:

Ohoni.6057:

It is at the heart of the change in silk price, the long term change from pennies to silvers. It is not responsible for the short term fluctuations.

The OP was talking about silk prices going back up again, stating in january, after they basically lost value for 4 months before.

The change to 3 scraps was made more than 15 months ago.
So it is possible for silk to loose value while needing 3 scraps for refinement.

Therefore, that change cant be at the heart of the recent price change.

It actually IS at the heart of silk going back up. People are once again competing over the diminished supply to make Damask.

Thanks for the irrelevant post.

I bolded, what IS at the heart of silk going back up.

Silk is expensive because of its uses. Otherwise it would be like leather. So yes, it IS the high cost of Damask and its use that is doing it.

Also, you might want to look up irrelevant before you try to spit the word back at me. Because you got the meaning completely wrong.

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Coopziana.1802:

Ok, simple answer is: It’s the economy!
That’s all there is to it, some legendary weapons require more expensive materials that others… But that’s just tough! If you want it, you’ll work for it! Sometimes you’ll get them cheaper and sometimes they will go up in price… It’s just down to demand.

I don’t see what you aim to achieve with this post, ANET will not revise the cost of ascended items just because prices on certain materials have gone up. If you are so opposed to paying that much… Then wait for the price to go down!

Can we close this post now?

you havent really looked at the issue eh?
keep in mind this gear offers a stat advantage

and key is that it requires more materials to achieve the same purpose,

to make it simpler,
imagine instead of needing experience for the last 3 levels, you needed to collect

• 1000 mithril if you are a heavy +1000 silk
• 1500 leather if you are medium user +1000 silk
• 4000 silk if you are light user.

as you can see, for those same last 3 levels, light needs more materials than the other two combined. Not only that but since silk is needed by everyone, there will be more competition for that resource, meaning it will probably cost more.

*

What about the warrior, who needs more weaons crafted than the engie?
What about the player, who plays and Ele, Warrior and Thief and has to craft 3 different sets, while someone who plays all the light classes only has to craft one and can share it between his alts?

Its still fair to ALL PLAYERS because nobody has to pay more than the other for gearing the same class with the same equipment.

warrior weapons after the first two are horizontal progression. You are not weaker than an ele in a dungeon or fight, not weaker in WvW, and not weaker in a dungeon.

getting more charachters who can use your ascended is also horizontal progression, it doesnt make you stronger in any fight. Also note, as of HOT every ascended will be useful for 3 classes.

being fair to the owner of the game doesnt really come into this. By your definition balance between classes is totally unimportant, because any player can select any class.

So would it be good if warriors could destroy bosses with one hit, because everyone can choose to level a warrior? The same logic applies here.

now im not saying there needs to be no balance on horizontal progression, but that is a different issue.
I personally would have no objections to them adding more weapons to other classes, because that is more actual options having to do extra work for more options is different than having to do more work for the SAME power.

So its fine that the warrior has to craft 9 weapons more per set for build variety than the engi because its not vertical profession?

Why can my Engi friend have his full build variety today, while i still have to earn 45 more laurels and craft 9 more weapons for my warrior?

Thats so unfair.

Wanze.8410:

So its fine that the warrior has to craft 9 weapons more per set for build variety than the engi because its not vertical profession?

Why can my Engi friend have his full build variety today, while i still have to earn 45 more laurels and craft 9 more weapons for my warrior?

Thats so unfair.

Its an amusing try, but I find myself unconvinced.

Ohoni.6057:

Like I said, nobody is expecting them to be micromanaged to the point that they retain an absolute fixed price, but would it be too much to ask that a system be maintained in which the following is always true (aside from brief corrective swings):

Within a single material type: T6>T5>T4>T3>T2>T1

Ohoni.6057:

The argument isn’t one of ignorance of this fact, but rather of a difference of opinion between those that believe that the current natural level is acceptable, and those who do not. We would like to see changes made that would lower the natural level.

Which is it? Do you want the clear and simple progression of prices based off tier of mat or do you want lower silk prices. By the first quote you think silk should be priced higher considering the prices of other cloth mats, the second crashes the prices of all cloth following your logic. It is impossible to have both.

Ohoni.6057:

he just has the option of having more. No character in the game needs more than two one-handers or one two-hander,

No character in the game needs Ascended armor. They have the option of getting them.

Nike.2631:

Wanze.8410:

So its fine that the warrior has to craft 9 weapons more per set for build variety than the engi because its not vertical profession?

Why can my Engi friend have his full build variety today, while i still have to earn 45 more laurels and craft 9 more weapons for my warrior?

Thats so unfair.

Its an amusing try, but I find myself unconvinced.

His argument is ridiculous. More weapons is evidently a bad thing to him, even though Engineers and Eles are always asking for this exact thing.

Draknar.5748:

Bernie.8674:

Draknar.5748:

The buy price according to GW2spidy is 2s5c. A year ago when I made my Ascended armor, I was putting in buy orders for 1s95c-2s….

How much silk is actually selling at that price? Were there 699,111 stagnant silk buy orders a year ago? The buy price doesn’t mean much in an environment where so many buyers are lining up to outbid you.

Check the link. It shows historical data on actual sales.

I hate to ruin the illusion, but they don’t have information on “actual sales”… Only John Smith has that data.

GW2Spidy (and other TP sites) only approximate sales by disappearing buy/sell orders.
(Which may be off… As I’d imagine people cancel buy orders if they’ve been heavily outbid. I don’t necessarily know how GW2Spidy handles that.)

eithinan.9841:

No character in the game needs Ascended armor. They have the option of getting them.

This is likely why they haven’t announced any new dungeons/fractals for the expansion yet.

Higher stat gear only really becomes noticeable if you’ve got instanced content for a small group (like a group of 5 players)…

The more players, the less gearing is an issue. (Yes, if you’ve got an entire map wearing Ventari/Nomad gear… Then you probably won’t fare well against Vinewrath, but that’s not likely.)

I think open-world “raids” are the way that ArenaNet plans to design future content, which greatly diminishes the usefulness of Ascended’s stat boost. (It’s very nice to have the gear be account-bound, though.)

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Wanze.8410:

phys.7689:

Coopziana.1802:

Ok, simple answer is: It’s the economy!
That’s all there is to it, some legendary weapons require more expensive materials that others… But that’s just tough! If you want it, you’ll work for it! Sometimes you’ll get them cheaper and sometimes they will go up in price… It’s just down to demand.

I don’t see what you aim to achieve with this post, ANET will not revise the cost of ascended items just because prices on certain materials have gone up. If you are so opposed to paying that much… Then wait for the price to go down!

Can we close this post now?

you havent really looked at the issue eh?
keep in mind this gear offers a stat advantage

and key is that it requires more materials to achieve the same purpose,

to make it simpler,
imagine instead of needing experience for the last 3 levels, you needed to collect

• 1000 mithril if you are a heavy +1000 silk
• 1500 leather if you are medium user +1000 silk
• 4000 silk if you are light user.

as you can see, for those same last 3 levels, light needs more materials than the other two combined. Not only that but since silk is needed by everyone, there will be more competition for that resource, meaning it will probably cost more.

*

What about the warrior, who needs more weaons crafted than the engie?
What about the player, who plays and Ele, Warrior and Thief and has to craft 3 different sets, while someone who plays all the light classes only has to craft one and can share it between his alts?

Its still fair to ALL PLAYERS because nobody has to pay more than the other for gearing the same class with the same equipment.

warrior weapons after the first two are horizontal progression. You are not weaker than an ele in a dungeon or fight, not weaker in WvW, and not weaker in a dungeon.

getting more charachters who can use your ascended is also horizontal progression, it doesnt make you stronger in any fight. Also note, as of HOT every ascended will be useful for 3 classes.

being fair to the owner of the game doesnt really come into this. By your definition balance between classes is totally unimportant, because any player can select any class.

So would it be good if warriors could destroy bosses with one hit, because everyone can choose to level a warrior? The same logic applies here.

now im not saying there needs to be no balance on horizontal progression, but that is a different issue.
I personally would have no objections to them adding more weapons to other classes, because that is more actual options having to do extra work for more options is different than having to do more work for the SAME power.

So its fine that the warrior has to craft 9 weapons more per set for build variety than the engi because its not vertical profession?

Why can my Engi friend have his full build variety today, while i still have to earn 45 more laurels and craft 9 more weapons for my warrior?

Thats so unfair.

You cant really compare engineers options to warriors, because kits do not equal a new weapon. Its a different mechanic. its trading utilities for a new weapon bar, it doesnt get its own sigils, its balanced to occur within one fight. Its a different rule set.

you pay for more options, the engi has less options. engineer is one of my classes i play, i would love to have 10 more weapon options, and i would be willing to pay for them.

I will say i think the laurel time lock is really annoying for classes with multiple weapons, but honestly the time lock is bad in and of itself and has little to do with this.

eithinan.9841:

Ohoni.6057:

Like I said, nobody is expecting them to be micromanaged to the point that they retain an absolute fixed price, but would it be too much to ask that a system be maintained in which the following is always true (aside from brief corrective swings):

Within a single material type: T6>T5>T4>T3>T2>T1

Ohoni.6057:

The argument isn’t one of ignorance of this fact, but rather of a difference of opinion between those that believe that the current natural level is acceptable, and those who do not. We would like to see changes made that would lower the natural level.

Which is it? Do you want the clear and simple progression of prices based off tier of mat or do you want lower silk prices. By the first quote you think silk should be priced higher considering the prices of other cloth mats, the second crashes the prices of all cloth following your logic. It is impossible to have both.

Ohoni.6057:

he just has the option of having more. No character in the game needs more than two one-handers or one two-hander,

No character in the game needs Ascended armor. They have the option of getting them.

having 14 ascended weapons does not make you stronger in combat
having 6 pieces of ascended armor versus 6 pieces of exotic does make you stronger in combat.

An analogy for the choice you are presenting here is.
Do you want more options for dinner? Some people will, and some people wont. some people just like burgers.
Do you want to eat a crappier version of the same food.
The second is not really an option. I mean you can try to claim it via semantics, but the reality is its not a realistic choice.

now, if they want to give every class 14 weapons to even things out, im all for it, but it really isnt the same issue, of some characters having to work harder to attain the same power level.

Which is it? Do you want the clear and simple progression of prices based off tier of mat or do you want lower silk prices?

Ideally? Both. Why not? If forced to choose, I think a clear progression from T1→T6 is more important, but silk could be cheaper too.

By the first quote you think silk should be priced higher considering the prices of other cloth mats, the second crashes the prices of all cloth following your logic.

I’m not sure that you understand how math works, but the expression: T6>T5>T4>T3>T2>T1 can also mean that the prices of items in T4 and below should be lower than they are. The current progression, from T1 up, is 1.9, 2.9, 3.9, 4.9, 2.4, 0.5. It should probably be more like 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2.

No character in the game needs Ascended armor. They have the option of getting them.

Semantics. Either you accept that players have a right to value having ascended armor or you don’t, and if the latter, why are you even here?

Which is it? Do you want the clear and simple progression of prices based off tier of mat or do you want lower silk prices?

Ideally? Both. Why not? If forced to choose, I think a clear progression from T1->T6 is more important, but silk could be cheaper too.

By the first quote you think silk should be priced higher considering the prices of other cloth mats, the second crashes the prices of all cloth following your logic.

I’m not sure that you understand how math works, but the expression: T6>T5>T4>T3>T2>T1 can also mean that the prices of items in T4 and below should be lower than they are. The current progression, from T1 up, is 1.9, 2.9, 3.9, 4.9, 2.4, 0.5. It should probably be more like 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, 1.25, 1.5, 2.
[/quote]

So you don’t want to take the cost/benefit of upgrading materials into account at all? That is a big mechanic to ignore.

So you don’t want to take the cost/benefit of upgrading materials into account at all? That is a big mechanic to ignore.

The prices I listed are not particularly out of line for non-cloth material types. I’m really not sure what your point is.

There was a time when T6 cloth was worth a lot, before ascended armor was introduced. When Exotic was the top tier in armor Gossamer was worth twice the current cost of Silk. Of course you only needed a fraction of it compared to ascended’s need for Silk. And with it’s prime use as a mat gone, Gossamer’s price has plummeted as the TP overflows with supply at prices few are willing to spend for it.

As for the other tiers discrepancy in prices. That has to do to lack of new supply. Since T2-T4 mats are also used in the creation of Damask the demand is also high. Leveling is fast in this game and once 80, items dropped by critters will salvage into T5 and T6. Only dropped bags and heart rewards may have map level appropriate materials. And since T1 can be promoted to T2 (at a loss) which is in demand is the reason it’s price also seems high.

Yeah, the reasons are pretty easy to understand, the question is why haven’t they fixed it?

If they were going to “fix it”, they would have in the first month of ascended armor when silk jumped to the price it is today, not a year plus. They could have dropped the number of bolts from 100 to 50 but I’m not sure how much that would affect the consumption side of silk relative to new supply.

It wouldn’t help light armor in terms of price but the “recipe” for a piece of light armor vs medium or heavy is at least consistent, needing twice as much cloth to make than medium or heavy.

Changing from 2 to 3 silk scraps needed wasn’t the problem as T5 leather squares also needs 3 sections and Iron and Steel Ingots need 3 Iron Ore. Not every refinement needed only 2.

As Winterdays price drop shows, they only need to introduce another source for silk. How about raw silk from spiders that salvage into silk scrap? It’ll give us one more thing to hunt.

dietzero.3514:

Wanze.8410:

dietzero.3514:

Wanze.8410:

In the end, i agree, that light armor users are a bit shafted by the daily timegate and I dont mind, if they find a way to bring them on par with medium and heavy armor.

But then we have to look at other timegates as well, that are disproportionally distributed.

Why do heavy armor users have to spend 55 laurels and 33g for the recipes in order to get a full ascended weapon set and an engi only has to spend 20 laurels and 12g, an ele only needs 25 laurels and 15g?

35 Laurels is a huge difference and makes the 6 days that a light armor user needs more to craft his damask (which can be circumvented by buying it directly anyways) seem miniscule.

35 laurels is easily gotten with the new system. And are you seriously saying that HAVING MORE WEAPON CHOICES is a bad thing?? I am sure Engineers And Eles would gladly be ‘punished’ with having to craft more ascended weapons, if they had more weapons to use.

Seriously…that is one of the single worst arguments I have ever seen on here.

I bet you 5 million karma that i will be able to acquire 6 bolts of damask faster than you will be able to collect 35 laurels.

So my sense of fairness demands anet to take care of the timegate imbalance between heavy classes and engies first.

Takes 30 seconds a day to acquire Laurels. At no cost.

And the point is, having more weapons IS A VERY GOOD THING AND WHAT ALL PROFESSIONS WANT. You claiming it as a negative because you need to make more weapons is absolutely ridiculous.

You see Anet toting less weapons for professions in the expansion? No? Right.

Each recipe costs 5 laurels and 3g, so there is extra cost involved, plus the added mats for each weapon to actually craft it.

I dont argue that having more weapons is a bad thing, its just a costly thing for professions, who use alot of weapons compared to those that dont. Eles need 5 different weapons to get over 80 skills, warriors have to craft 11 to get 49 skills.

Its a power creep as well because the ele can use all his skills with ascended stats once he crafted 5 weapons, when the warrior crafted 5 weapons, he will have only have a fraction of his skills unlocked, so he has to use exotic gear to have those skills available.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, the reasons are pretty easy to understand, the question is why haven’t they fixed it?

Because you are ignoring the reasons why it shouldn’t be fixed.

I dont argue that having more weapons is a bad thing, its just a costly thing for professions, who use alot of weapons compared to those that dont. Eles need 5 different weapons to get over 80 skills, warriors have to craft 11 to get 49 skills.

Again, you portray it as an additional cost when it is not. It’s an additional option, but there are no direct benefits to having any more weapons than you can slot at once. This makes all non ele/engi/rev classes slightly more expensive to gear, but not by a ton. And besides, it has nothing to do with armor costs, because while all three armor classes have at least one “non-swap” profession, they also each have two “do swap” profession.

Because you are ignoring the reasons why it shouldn’t be fixed.

Because they deserve to be ignored, or at least overcome.

They don’t deserve to be ignored at all. Any interest to not fix this is as valid a perspective as someone that wants it fixed.

They don’t deserve to be ignored at all. Any interest to not fix this is as valid a perspective as someone that wants it fixed.

No, that really doesn’t make sense. Any reason to fix or not fix this is only as valid as it is valid, they are not all equally valid. Some are more valid than others. Everyone’s opinions are equally valid, but reasons tend to be based on more than just opinion. If I want it to change and you want it to stay, then on that alone we cancel each other out, but if I have good reasons why it should change and you have bad reasons why it should not, then those do not cancel out.

And btw, I’ve remembered another ridiculous element of this discussion on gearing balance, cloth armor is the WEAKEST armor. While most of the stats are identical, a full set of light ascended will only give you 967 defense, while a full set of the cheaper heavy armor offers 1271, around 25% more defense. It would almost make sense if the most expensive armor were also the most useful, but it’s actually the least useful.

An interesting question came up in the other thread:

If any ascended armor set, regardless of weight, would cost the same, would people still argue that the silk price is too high?
If you add the value of 1 each deldrimor, elonian and damask, it costs about 20g. So if every mat would cost 6.66g and the sets use 42 t7 mats overall to craft, would people still complain about silk?

I would be fine with that.

Edit: That would mean 1 set would cost about 350g and weapons would be 10-20g more expensive.

Wanze.8410:

dietzero.3514:

Wanze.8410:

dietzero.3514:

Wanze.8410:

In the end, i agree, that light armor users are a bit shafted by the daily timegate and I dont mind, if they find a way to bring them on par with medium and heavy armor.

But then we have to look at other timegates as well, that are disproportionally distributed.

Why do heavy armor users have to spend 55 laurels and 33g for the recipes in order to get a full ascended weapon set and an engi only has to spend 20 laurels and 12g, an ele only needs 25 laurels and 15g?

35 Laurels is a huge difference and makes the 6 days that a light armor user needs more to craft his damask (which can be circumvented by buying it directly anyways) seem miniscule.

35 laurels is easily gotten with the new system. And are you seriously saying that HAVING MORE WEAPON CHOICES is a bad thing?? I am sure Engineers And Eles would gladly be ‘punished’ with having to craft more ascended weapons, if they had more weapons to use.

Seriously…that is one of the single worst arguments I have ever seen on here.

I bet you 5 million karma that i will be able to acquire 6 bolts of damask faster than you will be able to collect 35 laurels.

So my sense of fairness demands anet to take care of the timegate imbalance between heavy classes and engies first.

Takes 30 seconds a day to acquire Laurels. At no cost.

And the point is, having more weapons IS A VERY GOOD THING AND WHAT ALL PROFESSIONS WANT. You claiming it as a negative because you need to make more weapons is absolutely ridiculous.

You see Anet toting less weapons for professions in the expansion? No? Right.

Each recipe costs 5 laurels and 3g, so there is extra cost involved, plus the added mats for each weapon to actually craft it.

I dont argue that having more weapons is a bad thing, its just a costly thing for professions, who use alot of weapons compared to those that dont. Eles need 5 different weapons to get over 80 skills, warriors have to craft 11 to get 49 skills.

Its a power creep as well because the ele can use all his skills with ascended stats once he crafted 5 weapons, when the warrior crafted 5 weapons, he will have only have a fraction of his skills unlocked, so he has to use exotic gear to have those skills available.

ele skills within the same weapon type do not equal a different weapon type. This is why its hard to discuss, because the mechanics and design are fundamentally different.
the different attunements dont actually, overall change your playstyle as much as different weaponset would for another class.

An obvious example is range.
you use daggers on ele, no matter how much you swap attunments, you still have to be within a certain range. Like if you are an ele in the harpy fractal, with daggerdagger you have to melee, all 4 of those attunements will not give you a ranged playstyle.

Then there are recast times, that are balanced around you having multiple attunements. If you just stay in one attunement, your dps, defense and support will suffer, you will be below another class in effeciency.

Point is, attunements is a different mechanic, with a different balance than a new weapon set, it doesnt actually translate into being equivalent to a weapon set. Its a totally different paradigm. You cant measure it directly against weapons.

level and play an ele in various content and you will start to see that it really isnt the same thing at all.

Ohoni.6057:

They don’t deserve to be ignored at all. Any interest to not fix this is as valid a perspective as someone that wants it fixed.

No, that really doesn’t make sense. Any reason to fix or not fix this is only as valid as it is valid, they are not all equally valid.

Of course they are … they are opinions. My opinion isn’t less valid because it’s different than yours or any idea about what you think the game should be like.

Wanze.8410:

An interesting question came up in the other thread:

If any ascended armor set, regardless of weight, would cost the same, would people still argue that the silk price is too high?
If you add the value of 1 each deldrimor, elonian and damask, it costs about 20g. So if every mat would cost 6.66g and the sets use 42 t7 mats overall to craft, would people still complain about silk?

I would be fine with that.

Edit: That would mean 1 set would cost about 350g and weapons would be 10-20g more expensive.

if their was no disparity, people wouldnt complain about disparity.
If the cost of a mat was 6.7g i dont think people would be that upset about costs

people may still want more direct means of working towards it, and to feel like they have realistic choices for obtaining items, but that wouldnt be as closely tied to the price, because the price would likely not be that bad. (and not liking the price increases the amount of people who want to get it themselves)

Obtena.7952:

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, the reasons are pretty easy to understand, the question is why haven’t they fixed it?

Because you are ignoring the reasons why it shouldn’t be fixed.

what are the reasons it shouldnt be fixed? I havent really heard any.

I haven’t seen any that it should be either. Funny ay?

Wanze.8410:

An interesting question came up in the other thread:

If any ascended armor set, regardless of weight, would cost the same, would people still argue that the silk price is too high?
If you add the value of 1 each deldrimor, elonian and damask, it costs about 20g. So if every mat would cost 6.66g and the sets use 42 t7 mats overall to craft, would people still complain about silk?

I would be fine with that.

Edit: That would mean 1 set would cost about 350g and weapons would be 10-20g more expensive.

This (the price disparity of light, medium, and heavy ascended armor) is what people are upset about, not the price of silk since the only real major use for silk right now (and the reason most people want it) is because of Damask and Ascended armor.

Don’t increase supply of silk, don’t make Damask take less silk to make…….

Make all armor classes use the ascended mats in equal proportions so there is less price disparity