Guild Wars 2

I am curious why is there a limit to how many guilds a player can be a part of, and would it be possible to increase it?

A lot of players like to join different guilds for specific content. For example if you like WvW you might want to join a bigger guild for zerg fights, but also a smaller guild for havok play. Or some who do pve/wvw might also want to join a PvP guild. If you do PvE you might like to have a guild for raids, fractals or any other specific content. Then there are also personal guilds for storage purposes, friends and family, and for wvw purposes.

I came into this game after 10+ years of World of Warcraft.

I am still scratching behind the ears when i see you can be part of 5 different guilds

Abakk.9176:

I came into this game after 10+ years of World of Warcraft.

I am still scratching behind the ears when i see you can be part of 5 different guilds

I’m not that familiar with WoW but can’t different characters on the same account be in different guilds? If so, how is it different?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Abakk.9176:

I came into this game after 10+ years of World of Warcraft.

I am still scratching behind the ears when i see you can be part of 5 different guilds

I’m not that familiar with WoW but can’t different characters on the same account be in different guilds? If so, how is it different?

The different is really obvious. Since you can only join one guild with one toon, you really think hard on what you want to join with that toon. You make plans on what you should do with it. You are more conscious of the decisions you make for yourself and also conscious of the guilds you are part of. Normally, people put their main toons in the main guild.

In gw2, since you can easily join up to 5 guilds. You don’t really think as hard, plan as hard and care as much. Social wise, commitment wise, seriousness wise, etc are all watered down.

SkyShroud.2865:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Abakk.9176:

I came into this game after 10+ years of World of Warcraft.

I am still scratching behind the ears when i see you can be part of 5 different guilds

I’m not that familiar with WoW but can’t different characters on the same account be in different guilds? If so, how is it different?

The different is really obvious. Since you can only join one guild with one toon, you really think hard on what you want to join with that toon. You make plans on what you should do with it. You are more conscious of the decisions you make for yourself and also conscious of the guilds you are part of. Normally, people put their main toons in the main guild.

In gw2, since you can easily join up to 5 guilds. You don’t really think as hard, plan as hard and care as much. Social wise, commitment wise, seriousness wise, etc are all watered down.

However there’s a big difference in that game than this though. That’s a game where raids and dungeons are both endgame and main leveling content. For that, wouldn’t guilds be more useful than this game where endgame was designed to be open world events?

Looking from the outside, my impression is gw2 is less structured than WoW. Which means there is less use for guilds and their primary structure is more for social in that they allow people to be members of several specialized guilds, such as a WvW guild and a raid guild and a roleplay guild, etc etc rather than one guild to do all.

The guilds in this game were specially designed as being modeled after different groups of friends like you would have in real life. Not all of your friends will want to do all the same things and guilds in this game are able to mimic this.

That is, they’re called guilds in this game but they’re actually more like interest clubs, such as real world chess, acting, book reading, football, just hanging together, clubs.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

SkyShroud.2865:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Abakk.9176:

I came into this game after 10+ years of World of Warcraft.

I am still scratching behind the ears when i see you can be part of 5 different guilds

I’m not that familiar with WoW but can’t different characters on the same account be in different guilds? If so, how is it different?

The different is really obvious. Since you can only join one guild with one toon, you really think hard on what you want to join with that toon. You make plans on what you should do with it. You are more conscious of the decisions you make for yourself and also conscious of the guilds you are part of. Normally, people put their main toons in the main guild.

In gw2, since you can easily join up to 5 guilds. You don’t really think as hard, plan as hard and care as much. Social wise, commitment wise, seriousness wise, etc are all watered down.

However there’s a big difference in that game than this though. That’s a game where raids and dungeons are both endgame and main leveling content. For that, wouldn’t guilds be more useful than this game where endgame was designed to be open world events?

Looking from the outside, my impression is gw2 is less structured than WoW. Which means there is less use for guilds and their primary structure is more for social in that they allow people to be members of several specialized guilds, such as a WvW guild and a raid guild and a roleplay guild, etc etc rather than one guild to do all.

The guilds in this game were specially designed as being modeled after different groups of friends like you would have in real life. Not all of your friends will want to do all the same things and guilds in this game are able to mimic this.

That is, they’re called guilds in this game but they’re actually more like interest clubs, such as real world chess, acting, book reading, football, just hanging together, clubs.

Yes, gw2 is moving away from how most mmorpg view guilds as but a lot of players do come from those mmorpgs and have experienced how the guilds are like in those mmorpg. So, it is indeed different and you answered your own question.

Moving on to the OP’s topic of limiting number of guilds. Since guilds are treated as a club house here in this game. Do we want people to join so many club houses? Are people actually capable of juggling that many club houses?

Not only that, unlike the club houses in reality where they can charge their members for membership fee easily, one need to search for it too and fill up necessary forms for them, there are noticeable barriers to entry. However, the club houses here are free and invite is just a click, the barriers to entry is really low. We also have to consider the amount of potential irresponsible new members because of that and the potential workload being placed on the club owners.

So, do we want more club houses?

the real Q is why hasn’t anet added alliances, such as they had in gw1

Do we want people to join so many club houses? Are people actually capable of juggling that many club houses?

How many friends do “you” (generic you) have in real life. How many groups are you a part of? Do you need the number of groups and friends you have to be artificially limited, or can you do that yourself? Can you juggle your friendship and clubs without someone limiting your options because they think you can’t handle it?

We also have to consider the amount of potential irresponsible new members because of that and the potential workload being placed on the club owners.

That is a consideration, but it’s a consideration for any club, guild or friendship. Is limiting more important than an increased workload on the club members?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Do we want people to join so many club houses? Are people actually capable of juggling that many club houses?

How many friends do “you” (generic you) have in real life. How many groups are you a part of? Do you need the number of groups and friends you have to be artificially limited, or can you do that yourself? Can you juggle your friendship and clubs without someone limiting your options because they think you can’t handle it?

That is a sophistry. While you do not have a limit in real life for social circles, you still have to enter these circles first with some efforts, there is still noticeable barriers to entry unlike a few clicks. Likewise, unlike club houses, maintaining a social circle is a joint responsibility while club houses are maintained by few, workload further increased due to the low barriers to entry (few clicks).

Just a flesh wound.3589:

We also have to consider the amount of potential irresponsible new members because of that and the potential workload being placed on the club owners.

That is a consideration, but it’s a consideration for any club, guild or friendship. Is limiting more important than an increased workload on the club members?

Is club owners, do take note.

Owners, my bad.

It sounds like you’re speaking primarily for the club owners though (a small group) in your defense of limitations. I’m speaking for the club members (the vast majority of the players) who can benefit from loosening of restrictions.

If guilding isn’t a necessity as in other games but a series of friendship clubs (and not all require much besides joining. Specially clubs do, but friendship or non specialty clubs do not) then what is the need to restrict?

In addition, guild officers can restrict to joining to their guild which would limit irresponsible members joining at will.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Owners, my bad.

It sounds like you’re speaking primarily for the club owners though (a small group) in your defense of limitations. I’m speaking for the club members (the vast majority of the players) who can benefit from loosening of restrictions.

If guilding isn’t a necessity as in other games but a series of friendship clubs (and not all require much besides joining. Specially clubs do, but friendship or non specialty clubs do not) then what is the need to restrict?

You have to consider the fact that there are good clubs and bad clubs, likewise, good club owners and bad owners. The barrier to entry to make clubs are very low so any random people can make clubs. The question is the quality of the clubs. Owners that make good clubs naturally have to endure the already no-salary high workload accompanied by it, if you make the workload even higher, you will chase them away.

Just view it as a government trying to attract investors to their country, if put really high tax, no tax exemptions while having low profit margins, will investors still invest? If there are no good club owners making good clubs, it will just end up as a loss loss situation.

My view is a little more simplistic then the more interesting ones others have posted above. With different content and playstyles that emerge over time, I think it would be nice to enhance players ability to connect and play with others. Guilds are a great tool for this. I think just raising the limit to say 10 for example would be really useful. Removing the limit might actually cause too many issues.

SkyShroud.2865:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Owners, my bad.

It sounds like you’re speaking primarily for the club owners though (a small group) in your defense of limitations. I’m speaking for the club members (the vast majority of the players) who can benefit from loosening of restrictions.

If guilding isn’t a necessity as in other games but a series of friendship clubs (and not all require much besides joining. Specially clubs do, but friendship or non specialty clubs do not) then what is the need to restrict?

You have to consider the fact that there are good clubs and bad clubs, likewise, good club owners and bad owners. The barrier to entry to make clubs are very low so any random people can make clubs. The question is the quality of the clubs. Owners that make good clubs naturally have to endure the already no-salary high workload accompanied by it, if you make the workload even higher, you will chase them away.

Just view it as a government trying to attract investors to their country, if put really high tax, no tax exemptions while having low profit margins, will investors still invest? If there are no good club owners making good clubs, it will just end up as a loss loss situation.

Agreed that there are good and bad guilds

Going back a bit to irresponsible members joining.

The good guilds can restrict membership as they wish. They can keep out the irresponsible sort only accepting members by invitation from a leader or officer and by requiring prospective members submit a resume at a guild online page. So how does players having more choices mean more irresponsible members joining, since good guilds can use the tools already in game to keep them out.

In addition, I’m not understanding how players having choices increases the workload for good guilds that are already accepting new players only by invite &/or resume?

I don’t quite understand the opposition to more guilds. If any person wishes to join few, one or even no guild, so be it. They have that option whether the limit is 5 or 50. The fact that someone else wishes to join 10 or 15 guilds has no impact on them.

And why has the discussion turned to good vs bad Guilds/Leaders? What determines if a guild or a guild-leader is good or bad? Why does it matter if they are? So long as there is no restriction on the amount of guilds that may exist, what is the harm if a guild consists of two people or two hundred? If the guild is focused (WvW, Raids, PvP) or a group of friends that are using it to have a chat function?

Speaking of which. I’d actually be quite content if, instead of more guilds, they introduced a private group chat system. That way groups of friends who use guilds as a form of communication can do so without taking up a guild slot which may be better served as a content-focused guild.

Shrugs Whether they increase the guild limit or not (but especially if they do!), I would like to be able to customize the colour for each guild’s chat.

And why has the discussion turned to good vs bad Guilds/Leaders?

Because the only person with serious objections on this thread is a guild leader who originally came from WoW and who wishes guilds were like WoW’s guilds, only one per character (or maybe one per account) as having more than one choice is extra work (he says) for guild leaders. Therefore he is opposed.

Serenity.6135:

I am curious why is there a limit to how many guilds a player can be a part of, and would it be possible to increase it?

A lot of players like to join different guilds for specific content. For example if you like WvW you might want to join a bigger guild for zerg fights, but also a smaller guild for havok play. Or some who do pve/wvw might also want to join a PvP guild. If you do PvE you might like to have a guild for raids, fractals or any other specific content. Then there are also personal guilds for storage purposes, friends and family, and for wvw purposes.

Everything must have a limit in computing because there is only a finite amount of space. If there was no limit and the number of guilds a player joined got high enough, it would certainly cause issues. This “high enough” point is handled by imposing a limit. Whether the limit is number really close to 0 or really large doesn’t matter as long as it restricts someone from reaching the “high enough” point.

Why the limit is so small is another question. I would like to see an increase as well!

I tend to join one guild at a time. Habit more than anything else really. I do like the idea of a guild as a community to invest though.

In gw1 my guild was part of a large alliance with a waiting list for guilds seeking to join. Different guilds within the alliance tended to specialize. One might be mostly pvp, another mostly elite pve content, and another focused on missions and vanquishing. Anyone looking to find a group for any particular sort of content could find experts willing to assist and fill party slots without too much effort.

As much as I would love a similar system in gw2, the multi guild join system seems like it can cover much of the same ground even if I dont feel that it necessarily fosters the same sense of community and belonging.

Expanding the number of guilds a player can join moves further away from my ideal, but nostalgia shouldnt be an anchor so, why not?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Abakk.9176:

I came into this game after 10+ years of World of Warcraft.

I am still scratching behind the ears when i see you can be part of 5 different guilds

I’m not that familiar with WoW but can’t different characters on the same account be in different guilds? If so, how is it different?

As mentioned you can be in only one Guild per character. But as you can have 12 characters on 1 server (50 in total per account iirc), you can potentially be in 12 guilds per server. (In WoW you can have your characters spread out over as much servers as you wish)

I don’t know if the 5 different Guilds in this game are per account or per character but i am looking at the difference in the number of Guilds per character.

I can’t say if that is a good thing or a bad thing tbh.

Aside from having multiple 1 character guilds (for storage, tabards/colors and such) i have only ever been a member of 1 specific Guild.

I see a Guild as a sort of Faction that you ‘swear allegiance’ to and do your utmost best for. I understand that might be looked upon as strange. These days things are more geared towards personal gain/progression and less towards serving or fighting for the team.

So, as a ‘One Guild Guy’ it was a bit strange to see you can be in 5 at the same time (per character/account) and that someone would even prefer to be able to be in more.

Not that i approve or dissaprove mind you. I really don’t care one way or the other

Abakk.9176:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Abakk.9176:

I came into this game after 10+ years of World of Warcraft.

I am still scratching behind the ears when i see you can be part of 5 different guilds

I’m not that familiar with WoW but can’t different characters on the same account be in different guilds? If so, how is it different?

As mentioned you can be in only one Guild per character. But as you can have 12 characters on 1 server (50 in total per account iirc), you can potentially be in 12 guilds per server. (In WoW you can have your characters spread out over as much servers as you wish)

I don’t know if the 5 different Guilds in this game are per account or per character but i am looking at the difference in the number of Guilds per character.

I can’t say if that is a good thing or a bad thing tbh.

Aside from having multiple 1 character guilds (for storage, tabards/colors and such) i have only ever been a member of 1 specific Guild.

I see a Guild as a sort of Faction that you ‘swear allegiance’ to and do your utmost best for. I understand that might be looked upon as strange. These days things are more geared towards personal gain/progression and less towards serving or fighting for the team.

So, as a ‘One Guild Guy’ it was a bit strange to see you can be in 5 at the same time (per character/account) and that someone would even prefer to be able to be in more.

Not that i approve or dissaprove mind you. I really don’t care one way or the other

With this information I find SkyShroud’s objections to be even less compelling. If you can switch guilds at the drop of a hat by logging in on another char, up to 12 guilds on one server or up to 50 guilds total, then the loyalty is really only there for those who only play one char or prefer only one guild. For those like me and many others with multiple mains or important other chars then in WoW, every time a player switches he can be in another guild and these guilds can be chosen for social purposes, such as role play (or whatever else besides raiding and dungeons that WoW players do). Personally I suspect the true argument a guild leader might have is that they don’t want the competition.

coz why not?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

SkyShroud.2865:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Owners, my bad.

It sounds like you’re speaking primarily for the club owners though (a small group) in your defense of limitations. I’m speaking for the club members (the vast majority of the players) who can benefit from loosening of restrictions.

If guilding isn’t a necessity as in other games but a series of friendship clubs (and not all require much besides joining. Specially clubs do, but friendship or non specialty clubs do not) then what is the need to restrict?

You have to consider the fact that there are good clubs and bad clubs, likewise, good club owners and bad owners. The barrier to entry to make clubs are very low so any random people can make clubs. The question is the quality of the clubs. Owners that make good clubs naturally have to endure the already no-salary high workload accompanied by it, if you make the workload even higher, you will chase them away.

Just view it as a government trying to attract investors to their country, if put really high tax, no tax exemptions while having low profit margins, will investors still invest? If there are no good club owners making good clubs, it will just end up as a loss loss situation.

Agreed that there are good and bad guilds

Going back a bit to irresponsible members joining.

The good guilds can restrict membership as they wish. They can keep out the irresponsible sort only accepting members by invitation from a leader or officer and by requiring prospective members submit a resume at a guild online page. So how does players having more choices mean more irresponsible members joining, since good guilds can use the tools already in game to keep them out.

In addition, I’m not understanding how players having choices increases the workload for good guilds that are already accepting new players only by invite &/or resume?

Having so-called resumes and reviewing them is works itself, does that not consider works for you?

Furthermore, while the existing guilds will not get as much impacts (they still do but is insignificant), depending on how they run their’s. However, new guilds will have a whole different level of difficulty to move forward.

Like I previously mentioned, any random person can make a guild, it has a really low barrier to entry. When you increase limit, the likelihood of people thinking it is a great idea to make guilds out of passing fad will surely be there and people that think is great to join another random guilds because you can.

These new club owners that are ever so passionate will have to compete with these passing fads, with the existing established guilds and at the same time filter the butterflies. Don’t forget, how is one even capable of juggling so many clubs filled with so many people? That is a lot works, way more works than any of the existing guilds have underwent.

How many of these new club owners will be willing to put in twice of even thrice the efforts than the existing guilds to reach where they are?

Eventually, the passing fades will die off, not without dragging down the once new passionate owners. As for the established guilds, they will live through and get remnants of all those guilds in the end like they always do.

If there are no new good clubs, how does it benefits the players?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

And why has the discussion turned to good vs bad Guilds/Leaders?

Because the only person with serious objections on this thread is a guild leader who originally came from WoW and who wishes guilds were like WoW’s guilds, only one per character (or maybe one per account) as having more than one choice is extra work (he says) for guild leaders. Therefore he is opposed.

Correction. I don’t play WoW, never touches it either. None of my posts indicate I wish it to be like wow’s. Also, do not misrepresent the meanings, it isn’t about versus, it is about not deterring good responsible people from making guilds.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Abakk.9176:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Abakk.9176:

I came into this game after 10+ years of World of Warcraft.

I am still scratching behind the ears when i see you can be part of 5 different guilds

I’m not that familiar with WoW but can’t different characters on the same account be in different guilds? If so, how is it different?

As mentioned you can be in only one Guild per character. But as you can have 12 characters on 1 server (50 in total per account iirc), you can potentially be in 12 guilds per server. (In WoW you can have your characters spread out over as much servers as you wish)

I don’t know if the 5 different Guilds in this game are per account or per character but i am looking at the difference in the number of Guilds per character.

I can’t say if that is a good thing or a bad thing tbh.

Aside from having multiple 1 character guilds (for storage, tabards/colors and such) i have only ever been a member of 1 specific Guild.

I see a Guild as a sort of Faction that you ‘swear allegiance’ to and do your utmost best for. I understand that might be looked upon as strange. These days things are more geared towards personal gain/progression and less towards serving or fighting for the team.

So, as a ‘One Guild Guy’ it was a bit strange to see you can be in 5 at the same time (per character/account) and that someone would even prefer to be able to be in more.

Not that i approve or dissaprove mind you. I really don’t care one way or the other

With this information I find SkyShroud’s objections to be even less compelling. If you can switch guilds at the drop of a hat by logging in on another char, up to 12 guilds on one server or up to 50 guilds total, then the loyalty is really only there for those who only play one char or prefer only one guild. For those like me and many others with multiple mains or important other chars then in WoW, every time a player switches he can be in another guild and these guilds can be chosen for social purposes, such as role play (or whatever else besides raiding and dungeons that WoW players do). Personally I suspect the true argument a guild leader might have is that they don’t want the competition.

What you said is logical but lacks empathy. Still, why do you talk logic here and on other posts, you try to focus much empathy?

While it is true that one can switch characters, one should not forget that you still only able to access one guild, one chat at that time. In other words, you whole focus is on that one guild and only that guild at that point of time.

Human is a social creature, when we do talk about social, we also relate it social bonding and that is to say, we inherently wish to spend more time on those bonds. This naturally lead to what we called a main guild because you will want to spend most of the time (with the people) in that guild. Unfortunately, guilds have size limit and naturally, for the benefits of the guild and the people you enjoy playing with, you choose a main toon to be in that guild.

Most importantly, all those social bonding is only possible because the amount of time and focus you put in that guild alone.

Still, I don’t play wow. I heard wow guild culture is pretty materialistic, not that much different from gw2 actually, only the minority is not materialistic focus.

SkyShroud.2865:

Having so-called resumes and reviewing them is works itself, does that not consider works for you?

So, your argument here is that having lots of people wanting to join your guild and requiring you to look through more applications is a burden that’s unnecessarily increased by more guild choices?

I’m don’t find this compelling. Put a password on your site and only hand it out to people you want to apply and you won’t have these unreasonable numbers filling out resumes.

SkyShroud.2865:

Furthermore, while the existing guilds will not get as much impacts (they still do but is insignificant), depending on how they run their’s. However, new guilds will have a whole different level of difficulty to move forward.

Like I previously mentioned, any random person can make a guild, it has a really low barrier to entry. When you increase limit, the likelihood of people thinking it is a great idea to make guilds out of passing fad will surely be there and people that think is great to join another random guilds because you can.

These new club owners that are ever so passionate will have to compete with these passing fads, with the existing established guilds and at the same time filter the butterflies. Don’t forget, how is one even capable of juggling so many clubs filled with so many people? That is a lot works, way more works than any of the existing guilds have underwent.

How many of these new club owners will be willing to put in twice of even thrice the efforts than the existing guilds to reach where they are?

Eventually, the passing fades will die off, not without dragging down the once new passionate owners. As for the established guilds, they will live through and get remnants of all those guilds in the end like they always do.

If there are no new good clubs, how does it benefits the players?

Here your argument is that people make guilds and compete to get players. How is that different from now? People are constantly making new guilds and trying for members. That won’t change. Currently guilds can compete for members who can join 5 guilds. The more guilds that an account can join the bigger the pool of available members and there’s less competition for members. Sure some, even many, will fail. That’s the lot of all guilds, even in WoW, the system you seem to like. One of the reoccurring complaints on the forum there is that the guild they were in died and now they need to find another guild. Having one choice or multiple choices doesn’t stop people from making guilds and neither stops guilds from dying.

How many of these new club owners will be willing to put in twice of even thrice the efforts than the existing guilds to reach where they are?

Same as today. /shrug. New guilds already have a hard time getting started. Having a larger pool of available members through more guild slots will make it easier, not harder, for players to give them a chance.

SkyShroud.2865:

Human is a social creature,

And also a solitary creature and a contradictory creature and one with a variety of preferences and passions.

Certainly, for some people, the right choice is a single guild. For others, the “one guild per character” system of some games is excellent.

For me, however, the one guild/character or /account rule is stifling. I have never, ever seen a guild that captured as little as half my interests. I like WvW and fractals and raids. I like people who bring intensity to their gaming and also those who can’t give two skritt about it.

I understand why some guild leaders might prefer their members to choose more carefully. I hope you can understand why I’d prefer to belong to a dozen guilds instead of “just” 5.

SkyShroud.2865:

What you said is logical but lacks empathy. Still, why do you talk logic here and on other posts, you try to focus much empathy?

Because maybe you haven’t given me anything to be empathetic for? You’ve said is that guild leaders will have more work to do but you haven’t proven this argument. If you don’t want new members, don’t invite them. If you don’t want to read resumes, again, don’t invite people to your guild. They won’t be filling resumes out unless you do. If your complaint is that players having more choices means you’ll have more people applying, then (again) just tell them no. You’re not obligated to invite or accept people you don’t need or want. The words “no thank you, we are not accepting applications at this time” will stop any increased workload from increasing guild slots.

Truthfully, if that’s your argument, that you’ll have too many people wanting to join your guild and that’s too much work for you then I don’t feel a lot of empathy for that position.

SkyShroud.2865:

While it is true that one can switch characters, one should not forget that you still only able to access one guild, one chat at that time. In other words, you whole focus is on that one guild and only that guild at that point of time.

Human is a social creature, when we do talk about social, we also relate it social bonding and that is to say, we inherently wish to spend more time on those bonds. This naturally lead to what we called a main guild because you will want to spend most of the time (with the people) in that guild. Unfortunately, guilds have size limit and naturally, for the benefits of the guild and the people you enjoy playing with, you choose a main toon to be in that guild.

Most importantly, all those social bonding is only possible because the amount of time and focus you put in that guild alone.

Still, I don’t play wow. I heard wow guild culture is pretty materialistic, not that much different from gw2 actually, only the minority is not materialistic focus.

Then guild chat there is a lot like guild chat was here before they allowed all guild chats per account.

Your argument about main guilds is only relevant to those who think like you. I have two active guilds I’m a member of and I consider both of them my main. I can see guild chat all the time. I can join in and speak to all members of both guilds as I wish. I can join any activities when I wish. That’s the power of multi guilds, multi guild chat. Its not restricting my playing to only one group but to 2, or 3, or 4, or 5 at once. Maybe for a guild leader who thinks like you, that’s a problem but as guild member I have lots of people to play with and talk to. Now that, imo, is being social. It’s a big advantage and I see no reason I should want to limit myself to your vision of how a guild, or a game, should be.

Edit: one of the complaints I see on the WoW forum is, “my friends have all quit. My guild has died. I’m all alone”

They wouldn’t be “all alone” if they were had multi guilds, multi guilds chat like this game. They would have the other guilds they are a member of to talk to and play with if one guild dies and all their friends leave.

Edit: about the number of guilds I’m a member of. I’m actually a member of 4. Two are active, one is dead but is held on to for reasons of friendship and nostalgia and one is a guild bank where I am the only member. I was a member of a 5th guild but quit and haven’t picked up another guild (yet).

Just a flesh wound.3589:

SkyShroud.2865:

What you said is logical but lacks empathy. Still, why do you talk logic here and on other posts, you try to focus much empathy?

Because maybe you haven’t given me anything to be empathetic for? You’ve said is that guild leaders will have more work to do but you haven’t proven this argument. If you don’t want new members, don’t invite them. If you don’t want to read resumes, again, don’t invite people to your guild. They won’t be filling resumes out unless you do. If your complaint is that players having more choices means you’ll have more people applying, then (again) just tell them no. You’re not obligated to invite or accept people you don’t need or want. The words “no thank you, we are not accepting applications at this time” will stop any increased workload from increasing guild slots.

Truthfully, if that’s your argument, that you’ll have too many people wanting to join your guild and that’s too much work for you then I don’t feel a lot of empathy for that position.

You talk about evidences but can you even provide evidence that it surely is a plus and will not become minus in the long run? You can’t, so why continue that line of argument?

Again, you are misrepresenting. New guilds have to recruit, they have no choice. Your sophistry is getting a bit too much.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

SkyShroud.2865:

While it is true that one can switch characters, one should not forget that you still only able to access one guild, one chat at that time. In other words, you whole focus is on that one guild and only that guild at that point of time.

Human is a social creature, when we do talk about social, we also relate it social bonding and that is to say, we inherently wish to spend more time on those bonds. This naturally lead to what we called a main guild because you will want to spend most of the time (with the people) in that guild. Unfortunately, guilds have size limit and naturally, for the benefits of the guild and the people you enjoy playing with, you choose a main toon to be in that guild.

Most importantly, all those social bonding is only possible because the amount of time and focus you put in that guild alone.

Still, I don’t play wow. I heard wow guild culture is pretty materialistic, not that much different from gw2 actually, only the minority is not materialistic focus.

Then guild chat there is a lot like guild chat was here before they allowed all guild chats per account.

Your argument about main guilds is only relevant to those who think like you. I have two active guilds I’m a member of and I consider both of them my main. I can see guild chat all the time. I can join in and speak to all members of both guilds as I wish. I can join any activities when I wish. That’s the power of multi guilds, multi guild chat. Its not restricting my playing to only one group but to 2, or 3, or 4, or 5 at once. Maybe for a guild leader who thinks like you, that’s a problem but as guild member I have lots of people to play with and talk to. Now that, imo, is being social. It’s a big advantage and I see no reason I should want to limit myself to your vision of how a guild, or a game, should be.

Edit: one of the complaints I see on the WoW forum is, “my friends have all quit. My guild has died. I’m all alone”

They wouldn’t be “all alone” if they were had multi guilds, multi guilds chat like this game. They would have the other guilds they are a member of to talk to and play with if one guild dies and all their friends leave.

Edit: about the number of guilds I’m a member of. I’m actually a member of 4. Two are active, one is dead but is held on to for reasons of friendship and nostalgia and one is a guild bank where I am the only member. I was a member of a 5th guild but quit and haven’t picked up another guild (yet).

Yet again, you are misrepresenting. I am not debating about 1 guild vs 5 guilds. I am debating more than 5 guilds, the impact of more than 5 guilds. However, you always end up connecting the two different arguments to the more than 5 guilds argument. Those two are different, those two has no relations. The only relation is the question on your first post which you yourself has answered. Then, for god knows how, you manage to relate 1 guild to multi guilds once again. Nvm, I look past that since you trying to compare relogging to different accounts with one toons access to many. Then again, that actually in reality not comparable, it is comparing orange with pair. You know full well that you cannot access all guilds at the same time unlike current gw2 but you continue to make that comparison.

Looking past that again, I highlighted your talk about social. Here, you just relating social as a chat room. However, I am talking about social bonding, not just a chat partner. It is really a big difference.

Also, using your logic, that person can just leave the dead guild and find a new guild, what’s the different?

Just a flesh wound.3589:

SkyShroud.2865:

Having so-called resumes and reviewing them is works itself, does that not consider works for you?

So, your argument here is that having lots of people wanting to join your guild and requiring you to look through more applications is a burden that’s unnecessarily increased by more guild choices?

I’m don’t find this compelling. Put a password on your site and only hand it out to people you want to apply and you won’t have these unreasonable numbers filling out resumes.

Again, you are misrepresenting the meanings. You are suggesting the new owners to step up their filter procedures, suggesting something known as resumes or applications. That itself is extra works.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Here your argument is that people make guilds and compete to get players. How is that different from now? People are constantly making new guilds and trying for members. That won’t change. Currently guilds can compete for members who can join 5 guilds. The more guilds that an account can join the bigger the pool of available members and there’s less competition for members. Sure some, even many, will fail. That’s the lot of all guilds, even in WoW, the system you seem to like. One of the reoccurring complaints on the forum there is that the guild they were in died and now they need to find another guild. Having one choice or multiple choices doesn’t stop people from making guilds and neither stops guilds from dying.

How many of these new club owners will be willing to put in twice of even thrice the efforts than the existing guilds to reach where they are?

Same as today. /shrug. New guilds already have a hard time getting started. Having a larger pool of available members through more guild slots will make it easier, not harder, for players to give them a chance.

The different is we started out with 5 and nothing has changed. Everything has stabilized and settled itself around that 5. You are now wanting to raise that limit and you are asking how is that different from now? It is like asking what is the difference of eating 5 sugars cube and 10 sugar cubes. That itself is sophistry. You know full well there is a difference.

I will put it really simple, with reference to your other posts. While you yourself only use 4 guilds and two of which are the guilds you chat often at. It doesn’t necessary means other people will be doing what you do. There are people, I have seen many since they are literally talking about how they use guilds in the voip, some people will form guilds as a temporary farm to get that want and after that, ditch it. Some people will join guilds as a backup, basically not because they need it but just in case they ever need it. Sure you have potential pool of people, but how many of those pool of people are genuine players looking to do something with your guild?

Also, competitions can come in different forms, it isn’t just membership numbers. Afterall, we already have multi chat. What you claim as bigger pool is a sophistry. If you increase that limit, it will be 10 guilds or whatever limit it is competing over a overlapping pool. This overlapped pool again will overlap yet another pool. It is all interrelated overlapping. It is a very complicated competition but nevertheless, a competition. The current new guild already has to compete against established guilds, now you want them to compete against more guilds, is that not pushing them to a corner?

If you are confused about what I meant about overlapping, in math, it is called set theory. We are all sharing a huge common pool, lets call it set A. Guilds can be considered as subset. Now, since members can be in 5 guilds and has cross chats. You can easily relate that subset can have common objects aka forming intersection. That is to say, guilds already competing over members consistently, not just on recruitment level. Now, you want new guilds to compete over even a larger amount of subsets while having to deal with people that use guilds as backup or whatever, you are pushing them too hard.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

SkyShroud.2865:

Human is a social creature,

And also a solitary creature and a contradictory creature and one with a variety of preferences and passions.

Certainly, for some people, the right choice is a single guild. For others, the “one guild per character” system of some games is excellent.

For me, however, the one guild/character or /account rule is stifling. I have never, ever seen a guild that captured as little as half my interests. I like WvW and fractals and raids. I like people who bring intensity to their gaming and also those who can’t give two skritt about it.

I understand why some guild leaders might prefer their members to choose more carefully. I hope you can understand why I’d prefer to belong to a dozen guilds instead of “just” 5.

Unfortunately, I don’t see how you will need more than 5.
Are you saying you spent so much time in the game that you can take advantage of more than 5?

@SkyShroud.2865

You are speaking as a guild leader who prefers solo guilds and doesn’t want any additional work that may come with increased guild numbers. I’m speaking as a guild member who likes having lots of people I can speak to and play and having the ability to be a member simultaneously of specialized guilds and generalized guilds so I can easily choose what content to play. We are not going to see eye to eye on this because our wishes and the problems that we face are not the same, since we are on different ends of the guild spectrum.

So, all I’ll say that for me you haven’t made your case. You haven’t explained what this extra work is for guild leaders, besides the one point of having more people apply to your guild, and you’ve failed to persuade me that having more guilds with more people to talk to or play with is less social than only having 5, since to me I’ve found it to be far more social with increased guild chat and things to do with more guilds and multi chat.

So I’ll put my vote on more guilds because the more people that players know in game to talk to and play with, the stronger the tie to the game and the longer they stay and play.

SkyShroud.2865:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

SkyShroud.2865:

Having so-called resumes and reviewing them is works itself, does that not consider works for you?

So, your argument here is that having lots of people wanting to join your guild and requiring you to look through more applications is a burden that’s unnecessarily increased by more guild choices?

I’m don’t find this compelling. Put a password on your site and only hand it out to people you want to apply and you won’t have these unreasonable numbers filling out resumes.

Again, you are misrepresenting the meanings. You are suggesting the new owners to step up their filter procedures, suggesting something known as resumes or applications. That itself is extra works.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Here your argument is that people make guilds and compete to get players. How is that different from now? People are constantly making new guilds and trying for members. That won’t change. Currently guilds can compete for members who can join 5 guilds. The more guilds that an account can join the bigger the pool of available members and there’s less competition for members. Sure some, even many, will fail. That’s the lot of all guilds, even in WoW, the system you seem to like. One of the reoccurring complaints on the forum there is that the guild they were in died and now they need to find another guild. Having one choice or multiple choices doesn’t stop people from making guilds and neither stops guilds from dying.

How many of these new club owners will be willing to put in twice of even thrice the efforts than the existing guilds to reach where they are?

Same as today. /shrug. New guilds already have a hard time getting started. Having a larger pool of available members through more guild slots will make it easier, not harder, for players to give them a chance.

The different is we started out with 5 and nothing has changed. Everything has stabilized and settled itself around that 5. You are now wanting to raise that limit and you are asking how is that different from now? It is like asking what is the difference of eating 5 sugars cube and 10 sugar cubes. That itself is sophistry. You know full well there is a difference.

I will put it really simple, with reference to your other posts. While you yourself only use 4 guilds and two of which are the guilds you chat often at. It doesn’t necessary means other people will be doing what you do. There are people, I have seen many since they are literally talking about how they use guilds in the voip, some people will form guilds as a temporary farm to get that want and after that, ditch it. Some people will join guilds as a backup, basically not because they need it but just in case they ever need it. Sure you have potential pool of people, but how many of those pool of people are genuine players looking to do something with your guild?

Also, competitions can come in different forms, it isn’t just membership numbers. Afterall, we already have multi chat. What you claim as bigger pool is a sophistry. If you increase that limit, it will be 10 guilds or whatever limit it is competing over a overlapping pool. This overlapped pool again will overlap yet another pool. It is all interrelated overlapping. It is a very complicated competition but nevertheless, a competition. The current new guild already has to compete against established guilds, now you want them to compete against more guilds, is that not pushing them to a corner?

If you are confused about what I meant about overlapping, in math, it is called set theory. We are all sharing a huge common pool, lets call it set A. Guilds can be considered as subset. Now, since members can be in 5 guilds and has cross chats. You can easily relate that subset can have common objects aka forming intersection. That is to say, guilds already competing over members consistently, not just on recruitment level. Now, you want new guilds to compete over even a larger amount of subsets while having to deal with people that use guilds as backup or whatever, you are pushing them too hard.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

SkyShroud.2865:

Human is a social creature,

And also a solitary creature and a contradictory creature and one with a variety of preferences and passions.

Certainly, for some people, the right choice is a single guild. For others, the “one guild per character” system of some games is excellent.

For me, however, the one guild/character or /account rule is stifling. I have never, ever seen a guild that captured as little as half my interests. I like WvW and fractals and raids. I like people who bring intensity to their gaming and also those who can’t give two skritt about it.

I understand why some guild leaders might prefer their members to choose more carefully. I hope you can understand why I’d prefer to belong to a dozen guilds instead of “just” 5.

Unfortunately, I don’t see how you will need more than 5.
Are you saying you spent so much time in the game that you can take advantage of more than 5?

That’s the thing, since guilds are more for the social aspect than for the necessary aspect of needing other players to progress, some people may be in more social oriented guilds. A gay player may be in a LGBTQ guild. An adult gamer may have a guild for his closest friends that he grew up playing games with. He may be left in a guild that’s traveled through multiple games and the guild died off with GW2 or the GW2 chapter died off, but he doesn’t want to leave due to nostalgia, or the guild bank that’s been grandfathered in. And that’s on top of gameplay oriented guilds such as PvX, WvW, PvP, Raids, Dungeon/Fractals (the speed runners), Role Play, etc.

And players may have a guild that serves as a personal bank.

SkyShroud.2865:

Unfortunately, I don’t see how you will need more than 5.

I don’t see why it matters whether you can see it or not. I’m telling you that I can & I’ve described it multiple times (pretty much each time the topic comes up). Here are the sorts of guilds I’d belong to if there was no limit.

• Story and achievement guild
• Raid training
• Raid self-teaching
• WvW organized
• WvW havoc
• Fractal guild
• Friends from GW1
• Friends from GW2 early years
• Trading guild
• Guild that some dude invited me to because they needed things like luck etc that I can supply.
• PvE skirmishing
• Potential replacement(s) for any of the above that are winding down due to attrition.

As I posted above, I’ve yet to find a guild that could handle half that list.

SkyShroud.2865:

Are you saying you spent so much time in the game that you can take advantage of more than 5?

Yes & no. I don’t need to spend hours in the game to enjoy the company of those who enjoy different aspects of the game.

I’m not arguing that everyone should do this (or even want to). I’m not saying that you ought to agree. I’m not even arguing that ANet should spend resources to increase the limit. I’m just saying that I’d really like it if the limit was higher.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781
I don’t remember you listing it out and now you did list out, base on the your way of joining guilds, I personally could have 20 or more even if I know I won’t use most of them much in the end. It really is out convenience instead of practical reasons. Any average players in the game will not able to use that many guilds, play enough hours enough to utilize all those guilds on weekly basis.

@Just a flesh wound.3589
This is what I am talking about exactly, people gonna join the guild without actually contributing much, not because they want to do something with the guild but just incase they ever need it. Club owners now have to filter all of those people out. Again, works. Every 5 minutes spent on one individual, is also good to say 100 people = 500 minutes wasted. People expect new club owners to go through all of that or perhaps never even for once consider the time required in making a new club now.

In fact, I have explained this many times but you refuse to take it as point. Likewise the other points. Not because it is hard to relate to, even without being a guild leader even once, but because you just want the biggest benefits as a player while not caring about players that sacrifice part of their gaming time for others. This is no longer a debate but a demand. That is why I say wow guilds culture not much different from gw2, is materialistic.

OK, let me tell you guys a REAL problem with guilds. Activity.

Guild Wars was notorious for this behavior. You would invite a member to join and everything would be great. For like a day or two. And then they would become completely inactive, forcing you to kick them. It was a waste of time for everyone involved, and a waste of money as well for the guild staff. Now, with players able to join multiple guilds, it seems there’s now even LESS incentive for other new members to actually participate in the guilds. Although, to be fair, restricting it back down to just one guild would be a little harsh. If I had it my way, I’d restrict everyone at two. And bring back alliances. I don’t know why they were dropped.

Arnox.5128:

OK, let me tell you guys a REAL problem with guilds. Activity.

Guild Wars was notorious for this behavior. You would invite a member to join and everything would be great. For like a day or two. And then they would become completely inactive, forcing you to kick them. It was a waste of time for everyone involved, and a waste of money as well for the guild staff. Now, with players able to join multiple guilds, it seems there’s now even LESS incentive for other new members to actually participate in the guilds. Although, to be fair, restricting it back down to just one guild would be a little harsh. If I had it my way, I’d restrict everyone at two. And bring back alliances. I don’t know why they were dropped.

It sounds to me like you’re conflating two different things. Logging on into the game and activity with the guild. I don’t see how the number of guilds you can join will stop people from becoming inactive in the game.

SkyShroud.2865:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781
I don’t remember you listing it out and now you did list out, base on the your way of joining guilds, I personally could have 20 or more even if I know I won’t use most of them much in the end. It really is out convenience instead of practical reasons. Any average players in the game will not able to use that many guilds, play enough hours enough to utilize all those guilds on weekly basis.

@Just a flesh wound.3589
This is what I am talking about exactly, people gonna join the guild without actually contributing much, not because they want to do something with the guild but just incase they ever need it. Club owners now have to filter all of those people out. Again, works. Every 5 minutes spent on one individual, is also good to say 100 people = 500 minutes wasted. People expect new club owners to go through all of that or perhaps never even for once consider the time required in making a new club now.

In fact, I have explained this many times but you refuse to take it as point. Likewise the other points. Not because it is hard to relate to, even without being a guild leader even once, but because you just want the biggest benefits as a player while not caring about players that sacrifice part of their gaming time for others. This is no longer a debate but a demand. That is why I say wow guilds culture not much different from gw2, is materialistic.

/shrug, again. Don’t invite people and you won’t have the extra work. Only invite specific people after getting to know them. It’s not like you are going to have hordes of people continuously clamoring to join your guild without an invitation, more guild slots or not.

So, as far as I can tell your main problem with more guilds slots is that you will have more people wanting to be guildies and a bigger pool of choices and therefore will have to do work sorting out people who want this. Ok. I know that’s got to be hard on guild leaders, more people wanting to join and grow the guild and having more to choose from, but you just have to take the bad with the good sometimes.

SkyShroud.2865:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781
I don’t remember you listing it out and now you did list out, base on the your way of joining guilds, I personally could have 20 or more even if I know I won’t use most of them much in the end. It really is out convenience instead of practical reasons. Any average players in the game will not able to use that many guilds, play enough hours enough to utilize all those guilds on weekly basis.

Your original comments were that there was no reason to increase the limit. I’ve given you my reasons, which are, for me, very practical.

Again, I’m not asking you to agree or endorse my views. I am, however, asking you to consider the possibility that not everyone agrees with you and that it’s not up to you to decide how many hours is enough for someone else to make it worth belonging to more than 5 guilds.

Again, I’m not asking that ANet spend resources to do this. I am saying that I would make use of 10 or even 15 guild slots, with or without personal guild banks.

Just because it doesn’t make sense to you doesn’t mean that it doesn’t make sense for me.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

It sounds to me like you’re conflating two different things. Logging on into the game and activity with the guild. I don’t see how the number of guilds you can join will stop people from becoming inactive in the game.

In GW, inactivity was pretty much a grudgingly accepted thing. In GW2 however, the inactivity problem is made worse by the fact that even if the members DO log in, they have more than one guild that wants their attention.

Arnox.5128:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

It sounds to me like you’re conflating two different things. Logging on into the game and activity with the guild. I don’t see how the number of guilds you can join will stop people from becoming inactive in the game.

In GW, inactivity was pretty much a grudgingly accepted thing. In GW2 however, the inactivity problem is made worse by the fact that even if the members DO log in, they have more than one guild that wants their attention.

Is it?

If guild A ask for members for fractals and I don’t want to do fractals, then I’m not going to join in, regardless. I’ll choose guild B instead, or neither.

If guilds are social clubs then in real life does having a book club and a chess club, and this or that clubs conflict. Do members of your groups in real life tell you that you need to have fewer clubs so you can spend more time with them?

@Just a flesh wound.3589
You are just making me repeat the same things again and at the same, you are conveniently watering down it into a single issue while forgetting it is part of interrelated issues. Arnox.5128 is highlighting the point that one person is not capable of concurrently juggling 5 guilds but you on the other hand, talks about 2 guilds and again conveniently using sophistry in attempt to suggest that 5 guilds is not any different from 10 or 15.

All in all, putting it really simple, you don’t care, you just want benefits on the expense of others. There is nothing to talk about.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781
I get it, you just want to state your position that you support the agenda to increase the limits, regardless or not of the pros and cons.

SkyShroud.2865:

@Just a flesh wound.3589
You are just making me repeat the same things again and at the same, you are conveniently watering down it into a single issue while forgetting it is part of interrelated issues. Arnox.5128 is highlighting the point that one person is not capable of concurrently juggling 5 guilds but you on the other hand, talks about 2 guilds and again conveniently using sophistry in attempt to suggest that 5 guilds is not any different from 10 or 15.

All in all, putting it really simple, you don’t care, you just want benefits on the expense of others. There is nothing to talk about.
.

One person is not capable of juggling 5 guilds…. Are you serious?

Ok, maybe the people you know aren’t capable and need to have their choices restricted for their own good but I assure you that I and the people I know are capable of handling 5 social groups at a time. In fact, I assure you I and the people I know can handle more. In addition if it turns out we are incapable of this feat, we can drop the extra guilds until we reach a number that works for us, and this problem will be solved.

you don’t care, you just want benefits on the expense of others.

If the point about not caring is not caring when a guild leader complains that he’ll have more choices and a larger selection of applicants to pick the best people for his guild which means some extra work to get these best people, then yah I guess I am guilty.

(Seriously though. Don’t invite people unless there are spots open in your guild. Anyone else who asks, just say ‘no, we don’t have any openings at this time. thank you’. That will cut down on all this extra work you’re complaining about).

SkyShroud.2865:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781
I get it, you just want to state your position that you support the agenda to increase the limits, regardless or not of the pros and cons.

Apparently, no, you do not get it.

I have explained why I’m in favor of an increased limit, why I disagree with others that think the limit would be bad, why I think it would be good for the game. I support an increase because of the pros and am against the current limit because of its cons.

• There are many reasons why people join guilds
• No guild can, on its own, support all the reasons.
• Specializing guilds are great for those interested in different aspects of the game and socialization. Generalist guilds are great for those who like to focus on one group.
• The existence of specialist guilds doesn’t have any impact on generalist guilds, so an increased limit cannot hurt anyone, not in any real sense. However, the limit does make it harder for specialist guilds to recruit.

Stop insisting to others that there’s only one way to view guilds and it will be easier for you to understand. You keep saying it’s bad for your guild and I accept your word that’s true. Why aren’t you willing to accept that it’s beneficial to other types of guilds?

@Illconceived Was Na.9781

You are misunderstanding something. It will affect my guild surely, but the effect is insignificant thus it is neglect-able. On the other hand, it will affect start up hugely.

Throughout my wall of texts, I already repeated numerous times it will not benefit the new guilds like what both of you claim it will. I even use set theory to elaborate the complex relations between guilds. Unfortunately, all of those means nothing to both of you because both of you are just so fixated that it will benefit the new guilds even when another person step in to emphasis that activities of the guilds will be affected.

Likewise, Just a flesh wound.3589 continues to use sophistry for his argument. Now he cite “social” guild aka chat room elsewhere his previous post includes actual activities like fractal. Surely, one cannot participate in fractal concurrently in 5 different guilds, likewise impossible to partake in both raid or wvw runs concurrently in two different guilds. Too much sophistry, a waste of time.

There are pros and cons to multi-guild systems and single guild w/alliances systems.

People have pointed out pros and cons to both. Neither system is inherently worse than the other system. ANet decided when the game launched that they felt the multi-guild system fit the game more than single guild w/alliances system did.

With that in mind, I don’t see why they couldn’t increase the max limit on guilds. I would say that 10 is probably a decent cut off. Gives people some leeway for personal guild banks, some social oriented guilds (LGBTQ, IRL Friends/Family, etc) that aren’t really guilds with the purpose of playing together on any kind of daily basis, and still have a decent number of guilds left for game play oriented guilds.

SkyShroud.2865:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781

You are misunderstanding something. It will affect my guild surely, but the effect is insignificant thus it is neglect-able. On the other hand, it will affect start up hugely.

Throughout my wall of texts, I already repeated numerous times it will not benefit the new guilds like what both of you claim it will. I even use set theory to elaborate the complex relations between guilds. Unfortunately, all of those means nothing to both of you because both of you are just so fixated that it will benefit the new guilds even when another person step in to emphasis that activities of the guilds will be affected.

Likewise, Just a flesh wound.3589 continues to use sophistry for his argument. Now he cite “social” guild aka chat room elsewhere his previous post includes actual activities like fractal. Surely, one cannot participate in fractal concurrently in 5 different guilds, likewise impossible to partake in both raid or wvw runs concurrently in two different guilds. Too much sophistry, a waste of time.

But I can WvW with my WvW guild, then later on do the Daily Fractals with my Fractal Guild’s Dailies Groups, do guild missions with my PvX guild, chat up a storm with my IRL friends during the entire day, then join in with my PvP buddies for some PvP action. All on a Saturday.

None of them are saying you’re participating in multiple guilds all of the time. Or that all guilds a player is in are truly guilds and not just a really big friends database.

SkyShroud.2865:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781

You are misunderstanding something. It will affect my guild surely, but the effect is insignificant thus it is neglect-able. On the other hand, it will affect start up hugely.

Throughout my wall of texts, I already repeated numerous times it will not benefit the new guilds like what both of you claim it will. I even use set theory to elaborate the complex relations between guilds. Unfortunately, all of those means nothing to both of you because both of you are just so fixated that it will benefit the new guilds even when another person step in to emphasis that activities of the guilds will be affected.

Likewise, Just a flesh wound.3589 continues to use sophistry for his argument. Now he cite “social” guild aka chat room elsewhere his previous post includes actual activities like fractal. Surely, one cannot participate in fractal concurrently in 5 different guilds, likewise impossible to partake in both raid or wvw runs concurrently in two different guilds. Too much sophistry, a waste of time.

2) Ummmmm. A social club for activities and a club used for “chatting” can be the same thing. It’s possible to combine the two, you know. For example, a chess club where you play chess and talk also about chess (and other topics) is an example of a club used to both socialize and do stuff. Likewise you can be chatting with your guilds and then do activities with the members. It’s certainly not one or the other. ^^

Surely, one cannot participate in fractal concurrently in 5 different guilds, likewise impossible to partake in both raid or wvw runs concurrently in two different guilds.

2) if you’re a member of one guild and there’s more than one activity going on, it’s impossible to do any of those guild activities concurrently. However you can do one activity and then another, even if it’s two or more guilds. Even if it’s WvW or raids. So that’s either an irrelevant comment or the comment of someone who doesn’t realize that it’s possible to do activities in sequence.

Hint, you’re using sophistry to twist what I said. (tsk, tsk).

Edit: in addition people usually choose guilds with different focuses (for example) a general guild, a raid guild, a WvW guild, a roleplaying guild, a friends only guild, etc etc as their choices. There may be little or no overlap in what the different guilds do. Their WvW guild doesn’t roleplay and their roleplay guild doesn’t raid, so they don’t conflict in the way you’re thinking.

@Just a flesh wound.3589
I am not twisting your words because you are twisting mine, a lot of times. You admit many times you one person cannot be at two activities at the same time yet you refuse to admit that the activities of the guild will be drop. Why?

I already explained using set theory guilds are already potentially competing up to 4 other guilds currently every seconds, every minutes, every hours. Arnox.5128 already highlighted the activities level. Still, you insist that increasing the limit will benefit new guilds, you insist that new guilds will not have pressures, all without substantial logic behinds it. All you repeatedly saying is that more guild slots, more people for guilds but you never ever once address the issue of one guild having to compete with 9 other guilds (if 10 is the new limit). All you think about recruitment, surely it is one of the issues but there are other interrelated issues that all add up to a increased workload. I thought I already explained about that, was that not clear?

It is a win-lose situation no matter how I look at it.

Edit:
Also, jsut because you use your guilds slot like how you use, it doesn’t means other people use it that way. I have know of people that join 5 raid guilds, 5 pve guilds etc. Simply because it is easier for them to look for raids, easier for them to look for fractal, basically a glorified lfg. The activities level they provide naturally varies along with the number of similar guilds they joined. Guilds have to deal with those people, those are all works.

Not only that, many players play a specific timezones, specific timing. You do see many guilds running GMs at certain timing, you do see many guilds running WvW at certain timing. We call that prime time and now new guilds made for that prime time has to compete with what? Potentially 9 other guilds? Likewise, existing guilds too has to compete against potential 9 others. Activities level won’t affected? It isn’t rocket science.

SkyShroud.2865:

@Just a flesh wound.3589
I am not twisting your words because you are twisting mine, a lot of times. You admit many times you one person cannot be at two activities at the same time yet you refuse to admit that the activities of the guild will be drop. Why?

I already explained using set theory guilds are already potentially competing up to 4 other guilds currently every seconds, every minutes, every hours. Arnox.5128 already highlighted the activities level. Still, you insist that increasing the limit will benefit new guilds, you insist that new guilds will not have pressures, all without sustainable logic behinds it. All you repeatedly saying is that more guild slots, more people for guilds but you never ever once address the issue of one guild having to compete with 9 other guilds (if 10 is the new limit). All you think about recruitment, surely it is one of the issues but there are other interrelated issues that all add up to a increased workload. I thought I already explained about that, was that not clear?

It is a win-lose situation no matter how I look at it.

You admit many times you one person cannot be at two activities at the same time

Yep, that’s very true. You can only do one activity at a time. I admit that. (Thats also true if you are a member of only one guild. If being in only one guild lets you do more than one activity at the same time let us know, because I always thought it was physically impossible.) ^^

You know, from reading your posts, especially this part, Surely, one cannot participate in fractal concurrently in 5 different guilds, likewise impossible to partake in both raid or wvw runs concurrently in two different guilds I think you don’t understand at all why most people choose multiple guilds. Many players choose between different specialty guilds. For example, someone might have a WvW guild and a role play guild and a general guild and a PvP guild and a friend’s only chat guild with members they met in various games. They might roleplay on guild A then go off and do WvW on guild B then later do sPvP on guild C while chatting off and on during the day with guild D. They certainly don’t have multiple guilds all asking at once for WvW players or raid members. Many choose guilds to have a specialized choice of activities, not the same activity over and over on multiple guilds.

You would know that if you were a member of multiple guilds at once

Edits: . Still, you insist that increasing the limit will benefit new guilds, you insist that new guilds will not have pressures, all without sustainable logic behinds it.

I don’t recall saying this. Perhaps you could quote me on it?

new guilds made for that prime time has to compete with what? Potentially 9 other guilds? Likewise, existing guilds too has to compete against potential 9 others

Your argument is flawed. It assumes more new guilds would be made because of new guild slots. However, guild slots are not the limiting factor. People who want to be guild leaders are the limiting factor. Not everyone wants to be a guild leader. Not everyone, or even very many, want to make a new guild. I expect the same number of guilds to be made per any time period and they will flourish or die in similar numbers as now. The difference will be that more new specialty guilds will survive as there will be a greater number of people who can join them.

I have know of people that join 5 raid guilds, 5 pve guilds etc. Simply because it is easier for them to look for raids, easier for them to look for fractal, basically a glorified lfg.

Undoubtedly a minority of people do this, but that’s between them and their guild. If their guilds are happy, it’s no concern of ours. If their guilds are not happy then they should take steps the way guilds currently do when they aren’t happy with a member. And that, again, is between the member and the guild to work out.

SkyShroud.2865:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781

You are misunderstanding something. It will affect my guild surely, but the effect is insignificant thus it is neglect-able. On the other hand, it will affect start up hugely.

Throughout my wall of texts, I already repeated numerous times it will not benefit the new guilds like what both of you claim it will. I even use set theory to elaborate the complex relations between guilds. Unfortunately, all of those means nothing to both of you because both of you are just so fixated that it will benefit the new guilds even when another person step in to emphasis that activities of the guilds will be affected.

Likewise, Just a flesh wound.3589 continues to use sophistry for his argument. Now he cite “social” guild aka chat room elsewhere his previous post includes actual activities like fractal. Surely, one cannot participate in fractal concurrently in 5 different guilds, likewise impossible to partake in both raid or wvw runs concurrently in two different guilds. Too much sophistry, a waste of time.

Surely I don’t want to participate concurrently in 5 different guilds. I could, for example, Fractal with Guild F on Fridays, Raid train with guild T on Tuesday, do Guild Missions with Guild M on Mondays, and so on.

Just as surely, you’d never be in the sort of guild I’d belong to and I’d never join the sort you prefer, so there’s no meaningful competition between them. My sort of guild would find it easier to recruit because people wouldn’t have to worry about a guild limit; your sort of guild shouldn’t care in the least because your target audience doesn’t care about having no limit.

Your “set theory” makes sense to you because it’s based on assumptions you made at the very beginning. I don’t agree with your theories because my preferences are different from yours.

Again, I’m not asking you to share my preferences. Why are you insisting that I share yours?

@Illconceived Was Na.9781
The moment you deny set theory, you are denying the relation logic, in other words, you are denying logic in itself. There is nothing to talk about with you any more. Good luck.

@Just a flesh wound.3589
There is nothing to quote or elaborate, because over and over again you keep saying new guilds will benefit under the increase limits. By benefiting you also imply it has no pressure. Afterall, if there is pressure, it cancel out the benefit or even completely overrun the benefit.

Assumption is what you too been doing isn’t it? You are assuming it doesn’t, I am assuming it does. We are both making assumptions, different side of assumptions. However, mine is a assumption that use “potentially up to”. Your assumption is base on absolute. Mine is using logic to back it all up while your’s is personal preferences, sophistry and baseless faith on people that majority will use like how you will.

SkyShroud.2865:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781
The moment you deny set theory, you are denying the relation logic, in other words, you are denying logic in itself. There is nothing to talk about with you any more. Good luck.

@Just a flesh wound.3589
There is nothing to quote or elaborate, because over and over again you keep saying new guilds will benefit under the increase limits. By benefiting you also imply it has no pressure. Afterall, if there is pressure, it cancel out the benefit or even completely overrun the benefit.

Assumption is what you too been doing isn’t it? You are assuming it doesn’t, I am assuming it does. We are both making assumptions, different side of assumptions. However, mine is a assumption that use “potentially up to”. Your assumption is base on absolute. Mine is using logic to back it all up while your’s is personal preferences, sophistry and baseless faith on people that majority will use like how you will.

you keep saying new guilds will benefit under the increase limits.

For the second time, I don’t think I’ve ever said that. Please find the quote where I did.

Edit: you must mean this conversation

You
How many of these new club owners will be willing to put in twice of even thrice the efforts than the existing guilds to reach where they are?

Me
“Same as today. /shrug. New guilds already have a hard time getting started. Having a larger pool of available members through more guild slots will make it easier, not harder, for players to give them a chance.”

Ok. Once I said that having a larger pool of people to choose from is good. I stand by that. You keep bringing it up so I guess you disagree and you think it’s bad to have more choices. (But I already knew that from this conversation).

We’ll have to agree to disagree whether having more people to choose from is good or bad. You think it’s bad. I think it’s good. That’s your opinion. ^^

Your assumption is base on absolute. Mine is using logic to back it all up while your’s is personal preferences

Lol. Ok.

And since we are talking in circles at this point I’ll let you have the last word, (which I’m sure you’ll take).

See, you can’t interrelate the issues. This so-called larger pool of people is highly questionable which I already explained so many times. You can’t see the issues on its entirety like how I am. There is really no point in further talks.