Guild Wars 2

The cost isn’t high but is there any good reason for a cost to exist at all? I think having a cost to respec at all damages a good game.

Having the ability to change up whenever we want would let us better see the effects of different builds and strengths and make it easier to see the depths and tactics to everything in the game instead of having people rely on one thing all the time. (like the five sig warrior)

I don’t find it terribly expensive to re-trait. I mean, it would be expensive to respec every single time I enter a new zone, but for the most part it’s ok. The reason for costing anything is to remove money from the economy. Since a lot of money is being generated from nowhere, there needs to be ways to get rid of it as well.

The only real thing I’d want changed is a separate set of traits for underwater combat (since practically my entire skillbar and strategy changes) and maybe the ability to perma purchase a dungeon set of traits as well.

The game needs money sinks, this is one of them. I dont know how familiar you are with in game economics (game economics, not IRL economics). In game currency like copper and gold is bought in to the game by NPC’s in the form of rewards or payment for items sold to NPC’s. That currency then needs to be taken out of the game, not just transferred to another player which is what player-to-player sales does, but taken out of the game. They do this by giving you repair bills, giving waypoints a cost to use, giving you consumables to buy from NPCs, and giving your trait respec a cost.

Whether the money faucets and money sinks in game are balanced or not is another matter.

If you want to try out different builds you could go into the mists, but unfortunately that only allows you to mess with level 80 builds

cosmatman.9306:

The game needs money sinks, this is one of them. I dont know how familiar you are with in game economics (game economics, not IRL economics). In game currency like copper and gold is bought in to the game by NPC’s in the form of rewards or payment for items sold to NPC’s. That currency then needs to be taken out of the game, not just transferred to another player which is what player-to-player sales does, but taken out of the game. They do this by giving you repair bills, giving waypoints a cost to use, giving you consumables to buy from NPCs, and giving your trait respec a cost.

Whether the money faucets and money sinks in game are balanced or not is another matter.

If you want to try out different builds you could go into the mists, but unfortunately that only allows you to mess with level 80 builds

Ok the game needs money sinks.

So why would one of them be retraiting?

This still limits our ability to change our builds to the dungeon all the time and see the different tactical options the game has and really learn the game.

it sounds like a general answer about money sinks and not why respec being one of the money sinks is a good idea.

Did you know that you can go into the Mists and respec for free to try out different builds/weapons/stats? Good way to test things before you spend any silvers.

have you been keeping track of how many ‘why does this cost silver’ threads there are?

-why do we have to pay for waypoints
-why do we get repair bills
-why do we have to pay a tax for the TP

People ask those questions all the time, and i believe a lot of people also ask for those things to just be free. Do we just want to make everything free, and put the sink in one place for a huge chunk of gold? or do we spread it out across a lot of things and just make it cost a little bit?

cosmatman.9306:

have you been keeping track of how many ‘why does this cost silver’ threads there are?

-why do we have to pay for waypoints
-why do we get repair bills
-why do we have to pay a tax for the TP

People ask those questions all the time, and i believe a lot of people also ask for those things to just be free. Do we just want to make everything free, and put the sink in one place for a huge chunk of gold? or do we spread it out across a lot of things and just make it cost a little bit?

Respeccing shouldn’t be one of them. It limits gameplay options in a game where character builds are already way too homogenous.

I suggested an idea where skill books could be used to respec outside of cities. I think that would be an excellent use for skill books after you initially use them.

cosmatman.9306:

have you been keeping track of how many ‘why does this cost silver’ threads there are?

-why do we have to pay for waypoints
-why do we get repair bills
-why do we have to pay a tax for the TP

People ask those questions all the time, and i believe a lot of people also ask for those things to just be free. Do we just want to make everything free, and put the sink in one place for a huge chunk of gold? or do we spread it out across a lot of things and just make it cost a little bit?

But these bills aren’t in the same way gameplay and style changing as a resepc. repairs and waypoints and such are maintaining the character a respec is exploring and learning about the character and adapting to be useful for various situations. (soloing grouping working with specific groups yadda yadda)

TurnipLord.6273:

Respeccing shouldn’t be one of them. It limits gameplay options in a game where character builds are already way too homogenous.

What it does is it forces you to give your spec some thought, instead of being able to switch to a new spec on the fly to fit w/e situation you are currently having trouble with. Mobs not dying fast enough while leveling? spec to heavy dps and continue leveling at a faster rate. Run into a champion/boss while you are leveling that hits kinda hard? switch to a survival spec. Having trouble with class X in pvp? tweak your spec a little. Able to kill class X, but now you’re having trouble with class Y? tweak your spec a bit more.

cosmatman.9306:

TurnipLord.6273:

Respeccing shouldn’t be one of them. It limits gameplay options in a game where character builds are already way too homogenous.

What it does is it forces you to give your spec some thought, instead of being able to switch to a new spec on the fly to fit w/e situation you are currently having trouble with. Mobs not dying fast enough while leveling? spec to heavy dps and continue leveling at a faster rate. Run into a champion/boss while you are leveling that hits kinda hard? switch to a survival spec. Having trouble with class X in pvp? tweak your spec a little. Able to kill class X, but now you’re having trouble with class Y? tweak your spec a bit more.

So of having to choose and gold suffer for mistakes or suffer for wanting to group sometimes solo others or go to various dungeons and be ready for various situations creates more thought then having to learn the strengths of a dozen different spec options and how they match for every individual situation?

I’m not seeing why one has to thing more about his points. “tweak your spec a bit more.” is a perfect example of the think and adjust gameplay a free respec whenever instead of a cheap respect creates. it lets players freely explore and adapt to every situation and adapt instead of feeling more stuck on a choice.

Even if they can only change while in a city it would be a great thing and sounds even better with your description of whats wrong with it.

The problem is the moneysinks are in the wrong places. I get repairs, I have a really hard time understanding WP one (at least how high it is at 80) and the costs on changing traits are just stupid.

We already have a massive money sink in the TP (15%+) so why should there be a rather minor sink on changing traits? I highly doubt it removes a lot of money from the game, especially since at the moment you aren’t gonna respec for minor stuff, and it’s just hurting the whole “play the game how you want to” part Anet was so big on.

2 words gold sink.

My experience with WOW it gets higher to respec your attributes

and with Allods they expect you to pay REAL MONEY to it.

I mean this isnt guildwars where its completely free, but hey atleast its not crazy high like the costs of waypoints.

Traits are intended to be more of a semi-permanent, longer-term choice you make about your character, and build around. They didn’t want people respeccing trait lines between fights out in the world… there needs to be some structure or backbone to your character that helps differentiate one character or one profession from another.

It’s important that even in a highly flexible system, there are some choices that you make which provide structure. Get one thing, give up something else, in a semi-permanent way. It makes you really think carefully about things and makes the choices more meaningful.

I think the gold sink is completely secondary…there are plenty of much more significant gold sinks. If people are regularly respeccing their traits, I think they are misunderstanding the intentions of the system.

Fozzik.1742:

It’s important that even in a highly flexible system, there are some choices that you make which provide structure. Get one thing, give up something else, in a semi-permanent way. It makes you really think carefully about things and makes the choices more meaningful.

alright I keep hearing people say it’s important but no one says why this should matter. It seems annoying to me so you’re going to have to defend it’s importance for me to take that at any value.

I think having my class and race stay consistent is more then enough. They aren’t more meaningful you can still respec a mistake away but what you lose when it has a cost but not an exceptionally high cost is the ability to think about and adapt to the situations you plan to enter. This is a huge gameplay benefit.

And people keep saying gold sink without explaining why THIS specifically should be a gold sink. Yes the game should have gold sinks but I don’t think respecs should be one of them.

If you are going to say gold sink at least explain why this should be a goldsink instead of the billion other less gameplay limiting things that could be goldsinks.

Have having 5 builds you sometimes lean on for 5 different situations you plan to go into means a ton of equipment to gather for all the stats and you’d probably goldsink yourself right in there.

I think the price is ok. You can “explore” all you want, for free.. in the mist.
But the game need double or triple spec.. For Dungeons/WvWvW and PVE

@Chiatroll
The reason it’s important is because the alternative is every profession being able to do everything all the time. Vanilla professions with no identity, and no meaningful choices (it doesn’t really matter where you put your trait points, because you can change them at any time).

Plenty of games have taken the other route, of allowing very loose and easy respeccing of every aspect of the character, and those games constantly have people complaining that all classes are the same and there’s nothing that defines them…that none of the choices they make really matter.

What ArenaNet provides is a good compromise between the two extremes. They use traits as a more permanent choice about the foundation of your character…what defines you as different from other professions or other members of the same profession. Then they provide a ton of flexibility in terms of utility skills, weapon and gear choices, etc…all of which you can switch out on the fly between fights.

So, they have tried to provide a system that has meaningful, semi-permanent choices you make to define your character, AND the flexibility to adapt to different situations. I think they did a good job. Traits are meant to be something you set and then build on top of…not something you change constantly for each different thing you do. Providing real choices (where there’s no “best”) and making those choices semi-permanent makes the system much more meaningful. It matters what you pick. That’s a good thing.

Chiatroll.7109:

The cost isn’t high but is there any good reason for a cost to exist at all? I think having a cost to respec at all damages a good game.

Having the ability to change up whenever we want would let us better see the effects of different builds and strengths and make it easier to see the depths and tactics to everything in the game instead of having people rely on one thing all the time. (like the five sig warrior)

Want an advice?
go to the mists and test your spec in there.
All respecs are free, all weapons are available at same power, there are fire to tests healing, npcs to test dmg.

Come back to the real world with a good idea!

I agree with the general gist of the original post.

I don’t have much of a problem with respeccing’s current cost in coin – even at 80, it’s only 3.5 silver. That’s a little over the cost of repairing two damaged pieces of armor (it’s 1.6 silver for one at 80, I think?), and equal to some waypoint costs, so it’s in line with the other goldsinks in the game. I think a bigger issue is the other costs, in time and energy. You have to haul yourself to a profession trainer, and there aren’t many of those in the world. It should be as easy to switch your trait points as it is to repair your armor.

Yes, yes, you can go into the Mists and test. But that’s not the same as actually going out and playing PVE – and even if it was, I know testing isn’t the primary reason I want easier respecs. I like changing up my build and trying new things. One of the things I loved about the original GW was how easy it was to alter your build and playstyle. You could change everything but your primary profession in an outpost, for free, and the vast majority of zones connected directly to an outpost. Maybe I’m just not looking in the right places, but I’ve literally not seen anyone say that it hurt the game or made the professions less distinct. On the contrary, I personally found that it made the game more enjoyable, and kept it from getting stale. I feel that moving away from this idea in GW2 was a mistake.

I am against free respeccing traits. It makes the character meaningless to me and it is not an unreasonable demand to ponder about your build for a few minutes in a RPG.

Why should respec be free?

I’d REALLY love a reply from ANet on this one. They claim that they make up for the lack of skill variety with traits to rival the first Guild Wars. Why then are you trying to limit the frequencies that we can create new builds and experiment?

at least give us DUAL spec its stupid into somedugeons for somethings to change spec just to pass one stupid boss PLS conisder attribut points in gw 1 where free of respec

What I don’t like is that we have to go to a trainer to get the traits respeced.

We don’t need to go to a mailbox to get mail. So why can’t we respec straight from the trait panel? That’s another gold sink on top of a gold sink. Before we respec, pay for the waypoint (and good luck finding the closest trainer) and then pay for the respec. That. Is. Annoying.

costs less to respec than it costs to waypoint back out to where you were when you decided you wanted to respec

The cost isn’t as big of a deal as other things people have asked to be free (repairs, waypoints), but being able to change traits from more places in the world would add some of the depth GW1 had.

To answer your question, because they do. Not much more reason than that. They have only a few ways of taking money out of the game, this is one they have chose.
It’s a done deal.
IMO, its not really that expensive. A few silvers is all. Waypointskitten me off more than anything else.

Some times you also have to realize players are idiots. What we sometimes want, isn’t what we need.

Everyone wants everything easy. Who wouldn’t? But easy means trivial. And trivial means nothing has any meaning. And a game that is just a gimme is boring and soon forgotten. Waypoint cost make you think. How important it is to get there, how the best to go about it. Trait points are the same. Gives meaning to your choice. Repair bills give meaning to death, rewards good skills and strategy. Punishes meat heads.

The reason given in the traits article written up by Jon Peters:

“We realized that an important part of building a character is some sense of permanence. With this new system, you are flexible enough to change if you really want to, but you should still feel like the choices you made matter while you are out adventuring or slogging your way through a dungeon.”

http://www.arena.net/blog/play-your-way-jon-peters-on-traits-and-attributes

There are more than enough money sinks

Repair bills
WP
Tax on TP
Cultural Armor
Crafting (Post cooking nerf)
The trait books we have to buy
Cultural weapons
WvW seige equipment.
Gold—>Gem conversion

Algreg.3629:

I am against free respeccing traits. It makes the character meaningless to me and it is not an unreasonable demand to ponder about your build for a few minutes in a RPG.

As someone who played the first Guild Wars I find this silly.

as someone who played the first Guild Wars I do not.

It’s less then 4 silver at lv80.

You’ll be fine.

There should put a re-speccing NPC at the entrance of every dungeon and the OP’s problem’s would have been solved immediately… i think

As someone who played the first Guild Wars I find this silly.

As someone who played the first Guild Wars when it came out and you had to actually fight stuff with your botched build to earn respec points, I find this thread silly.

Not sure if that’s what you meant.

Weirwynn.2390:

As someone who played the first Guild Wars I find this silly.

As someone who played the first Guild Wars when it came out and you had to actually fight stuff with your botched build to earn respec points, I find this thread silly.

Not sure if that’s what you meant.

Which was a bad idea and later scrapped.

Much the same asking gold for respec, travel and the whole repair thing is a bad idea. The only possible reason it could be there is to funnel people towards the gem store, I can’t believe people are actually justifying it.

Keep the costs and add the ability to have 2 or 3 sets traits for difference situations. For dungeons i want a survival build, for just questing glass cannon, PVP somewhere in the middle.

I think this becomes a greater issue and becomes amplified with how hard dungeons are, how often on these forums do we here complaining about how hard they are or how there group is just all glass cannons and cant complete anything? Part of that issue would be resolved with multiple trait specs , people go glass cannon cause its good for mostly everything. You will do great out in the World and youl do fine in WPVP and even SPVP so when push comes to shove do you go with the traits that work mostly everywhere? or go for the one that is good only in a limited capacity ?

There should be at least two options for players, due to the number of weapons and their implied playstyles.

It’s a gold-sink…end of story.

I don’t get why you think it’s so expensive.

At level 70 mine if only 2 silver 85 copper, if you don’t have that at level 70 you are doing something wrong.

How often are you respecing? At high level 70+ one heart should cover or almost cover a respec from what I have seen.

Remus.1270:

It’s a gold-sink…end of story.

Lack of players is also a gold sink. Hard measures shouldn’t get in the way of fun or easily bypassed (like teleporting to LA via hero panel).

Pawlegance.7012:

Remus.1270:

It’s a gold-sink…end of story.

Lack of players is also a gold sink. Hard measures shouldn’t get in the way of fun or easily bypassed (like teleporting to LA via hero panel).

This isn’t getting in the way of anything. ANet isn’t taking a daily tax from people.

You are the one who decides what spec you want to play. If you want to play support then spec support, if you stop wanting to play that spend a little silver and change it over.

ANet isn’t deciding to randomly charge you money….Besides this is something that is in EVERY mmo, at least here it doesn’t scale with every respec, just with how many trait points you have.

Heck you could be a level 20 in “The game that shall not be named” and have a 50 gold respec bill that only goes down 10 gold a MONTH…

There is so much more for them to focus on, and to me this seems very petty.

Chris.7653:

Besides this is something that is in EVERY mmo, at least here it doesn’t scale with every respec, just with how many trait points you have.

As pointed out earlier, the original Guild Wars didn’t have this. Besides, wasn’t part of the idea of GW2 that it not be like other MMOs?

Chris.7653:

There is so much more for them to focus on, and to me this seems very petty.

For those of us that enjoy mixing up our builds, it’s not petty at all. Guild Wars 1 had literally hundreds of skills, a variety of attributes, and the ability to switch between them quite freely (at least after the initial period of making respecs cost). Creating different builds was part of the game; while it was optional, it was expected that players would do it, and the game design encouraged it.

And then Anet went and basically removed that aspect of the game from the sequel. So no, it’s not minor.

I don’t mind paying for respec, but I really want to see them add dual spec. I enjoy using turrets in PVE with my Engineer because well, it makes me feel like an Engineer! But for WvW a build that supports grenades seems the way to go.

It’s very annoying and I certainly can’t afford to respec constantly.

Miri Fala.5813:

Chris.7653:

Besides this is something that is in EVERY mmo, at least here it doesn’t scale with every respec, just with how many trait points you have.

As pointed out earlier, the original Guild Wars didn’t have this. Besides, wasn’t part of the idea of GW2 that it not be like other MMOs?

Chris.7653:

There is so much more for them to focus on, and to me this seems very petty.

For those of us that enjoy mixing up our builds, it’s not petty at all. Guild Wars 1 had literally hundreds of skills, a variety of attributes, and the ability to switch between them quite freely (at least after the initial period of making respecs cost). Creating different builds was part of the game; while it was optional, it was expected that players would do it, and the game design encouraged it.

And then Anet went and basically removed that aspect of the game from the sequel. So no, it’s not minor.

Say it with me:

“This. Is. Not. Guild. Wars. One.”

There, got that out of the way? Now here’s a tissue for your issue. The gold sinks in this game are not game breaking or even inconvenient. Get over it.

souldonkey.9534:

Miri Fala.5813:

Chris.7653:

Besides this is something that is in EVERY mmo, at least here it doesn’t scale with every respec, just with how many trait points you have.

As pointed out earlier, the original Guild Wars didn’t have this. Besides, wasn’t part of the idea of GW2 that it not be like other MMOs?

Chris.7653:

There is so much more for them to focus on, and to me this seems very petty.

For those of us that enjoy mixing up our builds, it’s not petty at all. Guild Wars 1 had literally hundreds of skills, a variety of attributes, and the ability to switch between them quite freely (at least after the initial period of making respecs cost). Creating different builds was part of the game; while it was optional, it was expected that players would do it, and the game design encouraged it.

And then Anet went and basically removed that aspect of the game from the sequel. So no, it’s not minor.

Say it with me:

“This. Is. Not. Guild. Wars. One.”

There, got that out of the way? Now here’s a tissue for your issue. The gold sinks in this game are not game breaking or even inconvenient. Get over it.

Couldn’t have said it better myself.

People need to stop being stuck in the past. This isn’t GW1, never will be.

I’d like to hear the opinion of the devs as to why having costs on respecs is such a good idea.
We can argue all we want, if we don’t know the true intentions behind this we’re barking at the wrong tree.

If they chose this simply to create another money sink at the expense of freedom of choice and gameplay diversity, they are really lame.

PS: also bring the option to save builds once you remove the respec cost.

Silver Chopper.4506:

I’d like to hear the opinion of the devs as to why having costs on respecs is such a good idea.
We can argue all we want, if we don’t know the true intentions behind this we’re barking at the wrong tree.

If they chose this simply to create another money sink at the expense of freedom of choice and gameplay diversity, they are really lame.

PS: also bring the option to save builds once you remove the respec cost.

Someone already linked that article:

“We realized that an important part of building a character is some sense of permanence. With this new system, you are flexible enough to change if you really want to, but you should still feel like the choices you made matter while you are out adventuring or slogging your way through a dungeon.”
http://www.arena.net/blog/play-your-way-jon-peters-on-traits-and-attributes

Edit: Also, I fully agree with Jon on this. If you want to test out builds go to the mists and mess around there. When you have something you like spec for that. Or hell, test it as you level, like me. You get a free respec every time you buy a new manual (so 3 free respecs). I’ve been using that to test out new builds. Also, with it being 1s and change, it wouldn’t kill me if I did want to pay to respec. Stop whining about insignificant costs.

souldonkey.9534:

Silver Chopper.4506:

I’d like to hear the opinion of the devs as to why having costs on respecs is such a good idea.
We can argue all we want, if we don’t know the true intentions behind this we’re barking at the wrong tree.

If they chose this simply to create another money sink at the expense of freedom of choice and gameplay diversity, they are really lame.

PS: also bring the option to save builds once you remove the respec cost.

Someone already linked that article:

“We realized that an important part of building a character is some sense of permanence. With this new system, you are flexible enough to change if you really want to, but you should still feel like the choices you made matter while you are out adventuring or slogging your way through a dungeon.”
http://www.arena.net/blog/play-your-way-jon-peters-on-traits-and-attributes

Edit: Also, I fully agree with Jon on this. If you want to test out builds go to the mists and mess around there. When you have something you like spec for that. Or hell, test it as you level, like me. You get a free respec every time you buy a new manual (so 3 free respecs). I’ve been using that to test out new builds. Also, with it being 1s and change, it wouldn’t kill me if I did want to pay to respec. Stop whining about insignificant costs.

Thanks for the link. This is helpful. Now the discussion should go on with this as the starting premise.

For me that explanation makes sense, though I don’t agree with the tradeoff it has (it limits choice in a system where build are already very limited).

I don’t think it limits the choice really and here’s why. The free respec every time you get a new manual is meant (in my opinion) to give you the opportunity to try out different play styles on your way to 80. That way, when you get to 80, you should have a good idea of how you want to play your character.

The one thing that has been mentioned in this thread that I will say I agree with is the idea of having the ability to have 2 builds that you can swap between out of combat. The reason for this is that when I’m playing in the world just questing and gathering and stuff, I like to have a good damage build that I have designed for solo play. When I run dungeons I’m almost 100% about supporting my group. I wish I could have 2 trait builds that I could swap between in this case so that I can perform both roles depending on what I’m doing. The ability to switch to more supportive weapons is a good start, but in order to fully fulfill a support role, I need to re-trait at the moment.

You just explained why respecing costs (including travel to town) is limiting your choices, therefore contradicting your previous post.

Why only 2 free builds and not 3 free builds? Or 4?

I can’t believe people would argue against having the freedom to swap between builds with ease and convenience.