Guild Wars 2

We have armor and we have toughness for physical damage. Why are there no values or stats to reduce the amount of condition damage from sources? This makes absolutely no sense to me, especially with the introduction of HoT stats.

There are cleanses (which prevent them from doing further damage, because they’re GONE).

Immunity effects also will stop incoming conditions as well.

in PvE there’s break bars & resistance (100% immunity to conditions) as well.

Apples and Oranges. Perhaps you didn’t read my post.

There are runes (hoelbrak, melandru, resistance, antitoxin, sunless) if that’s what you mean.

If not, direct vs condi damage are philosophically apples and oranges anyway, so discussing damage mitigation follows the same theme.

I meant a direct armor/weapon stat that REDUCES condi damage like toughness. While we are at it, the opposite of Expertise should have existed too, reducing condi duration.

Condi, unlike direct damage, is countered by cleanses. Almost all condi can be blocked/evaded/blinded, and if you cleanse most of it almost perfectly you reduce the bit that does get through by 80% of it’s effectiveness.

It’s generally easier to apply to balance this.

• DPS (Hack n ’Slash)
  Based on Power, Precision and Ferocity

• The highest armor (= armor values + toughness and toughness food/buffs) ingame (~3200-3600) will reduce dmg by 40%… you’ll lose the option to do DPS dmg or DOT dmg in any serious amount…
• You have protetction for an added 33% reduction of dmg
• Food for -10% dmg…
• You also have invulnerability and reflects for projectiles, you can also dodge or block, interupt, aegis, blind…

You have power precision and ferocity to raise DPS and weapon strength of course.

• when buffed can have over 4000 power, raising the power 4 times above base
• when buffed can have the crit of 85%-100% (spotter, precision banner, foods)
• when buffed can have a ferocity up to 250% (thief with revenant giving bonus)
  (Thief with ranger, warrior and revenant doing buffs, missing engi (vulnerability) and chrono for quickness/alacrity)
• when using ascneded weapons you have 175% of base dmg (which is based upon whites) There are weapons specialized fo the use of DPS-builds, allowing for maximum use of the power modifier so DPS is raised way higher then other weapons more meant for support, CC’s or condition use.
• when adding sigils you can add 5-20% dmg from sigils and +10% dmg from food vs certain enmies or while moving… and 10% from utility in soime cases
• using the CONDITION vulnerability you can stack 25% additional dmg…

DPS is applied instantly, this means If I cxast my meteor shower on my fully buffed elemetalist I do 24 hits of 8000-12000 dmg… for up to 288 000 dmg if I can get them all on the hitbox….

• Conditions (Debuffers, Corruptors, Inhibiters, Interupters) and DOT
  Based upon Condition Dmg, Expertise and -TIME-

• Condition dmg can be buffed to 3200, A condi Warrior is needed (banners) and a vulnerability source (condi-engi?), a condi ele (Fury), condi necro (Epidemic) and condi mesmer (quickness/alacrity), together they can make 25 might np…
• Condition duration can be buffed till 100% (capped) (only usefull if ppl do not cleanse, not bringing any form of cleansing is you own fault, conditions are capped at 1 minute duration. (see blood is power bleed with full condi duration) This requires runes, sigils, food, certain armor and traiot selections and wepons only suitable for conditions with low DPS modifiers.
• Some proffesions have +20-33% dmg on some conditions or some mods on duration. these are by no means universal.
• some proffessions can corrupt boons
• some proffessions can spread conditions…
• and using the CONDITION vulnerability you can stack 25% additional dmg…

Conditions can be cleaned by

• runes (trooper on shouts) for AOE cleanse
• traits (pure of voice guardian on shouts, or warhorn cleanse from warriors)
• sigil of purity (cleanse on hit)
• sigil of generosity (send a condition to enemy on crit)

You also have

• condition invulnerability (obsidian flesh (ele),revenant in mallyx)
• invulnerability (will have conditions continue to tick, but will add no new for duration) AND
• resistance (invulnerability to condition dmg.)
• can be send back (revenant/necro)
• can be blocked, blinded, aegis, dodged, interupted
• reflected as projectile,

There is

• condition reduction food,
• condition reduction runes,
• condition reduction traits

And then there’s the normal condition removal….. if you failed to use on of the above options. If you clean a condiution you remove the WHOLE stack… most skills apply 1-3 conditions at a time a few do 3+, 1 gives 6 (scepter 3 on mesmer gives 6 confusion on a 12 or 15 second timer…)

Damage is applied over time, Stacks need to be build up. in the end amount of stack ticks give a good idea of dmg. this is still not related to Condition DMG. Max duration boost is 200% (2) Base duration is 1 , base max stack is 10 stacks, max reduction is 40% (-0.,4) as this is all independent of condition dmg it sows a comparison for dmg taken…

1. Without stack -> No Dmg, irrelevant duration -> DOT 0 * 0 = 0
2. When ramping up with duration reduction -> DOT 5 * 0.6 = 3
3. When ramping up without duration modifiers -> DOT 5 * 1 = 5
4. When ramping up with duration boost and reduction -> good DOT 5 * 1.6 = 8 (viper’s vs any build with acces to decent cleanses, and reduction runes and food)
5. When ramping up with duration boost -> DOT 5 * 2 =10
6. Properly stacked with duration reduction -> Dmg over little time 10*0.6 =6
7. Properly stacked without duration modifiers -> DMG over base time 10 * 1 =10
8. Properly stacked with duration boost and reduction -> good DOT 10 * 1.6 =16
9. Properly stacked with duration boost -> DOT 10 * 2 =20 (Viper Condi build v.s. non cleansing zerk build)
10. When cleansed -> No Dmg (move back to 1)

1 &10 are situations with no dmg: start and reset
2,3,4,5 are 4 possible situations: you are in ramp up and you should decide when to clean & heal; add 4 to the most relevant number to get to the stage you would be in when you’d fail to cleanse.
6,7,8,9 are possible situations where you are eating max dmg and you will likely have no other options then hoping for a cleanse or kill. You shouldn’t be in this situation. To be in this situation means you didn’t invest enough in survivability vs condi builds as in the end you will only survive with cleans….

Stacking costs time…. Ramp up time should dictate the damage taken from conditions.. Showing half of MAX DOT if you cleanse conditions at the point where DOT maxes.

TO get an idea: this number of Stack ticks * Condition dmg is you final dmg from the stack to lower dmg you could boonstrip might from your condiution user lowering his max Condition dmg by 750 points when fully buffed whcih could be a 15-25% drop in DOT if you do not have a condi clean , buying you valuable time.

2-3 ppl with shout heals can completely nullify all dmg from conditions from this group of 5 ppl when they want to, If they w anted they could heal up the group as well so the 5 would need to start over… (guard shout heal, warrior shout heal, druid healer w shout clean)

Most conditions are limited to 125-500/ tick… Only 2 exceptions are Terror and Chill (both necro, both applying seious dmg on a condition build) Terror will do ~2000 dmg for 2 maybe 3 ticks and chill will do 800-1200 tick , but they cannot stack with more Terror or Chill… All reapers’s revolve around chill….

Conditions are more then DOT ( pure DOT is only: bleeding, burning)….
Conditions are extremely important also to DPS builds.

Conditions are

• damage enhancers (vulnerability)
• slows (slow, cripple, chill)
• inhibitors causing dmg with actions
  - torment on move,
  - confusion on skill use,
  - poison on heal (well inhibits actual healing)
• interupts (fear, stun, daze) =/= CC’s (knockback, knockdown, Push,Pull, Sink,Float)

I feel there is no need to get a condition duration reduction on armors. If It would be added we would need an additional reduction VS DPS as well to keep it comparable.

Yes Conditions ignore Armor. Most conditions are 125-500 / stack and the amounts you allow tyo stack is your own choice.
If you cannot handle the stacks, get more options to remove stacks.
You’ll need to drop traits sigils or runes (read DPS) to achieve this.
If you want Maximum DPS you pay for it in vulnerability to conditions and DPS.
If you want Maximum Bunker you pay for it in DPS or DOT output.
If you want Maximum DOT you pay for it in less DPS and more vulnerability to conditions
If you want all: you will be Celestial/Traveler which seems to have dominated PvP for quite some time up to a point where A-Net said, we’ll remove this stat from PvP cause it is OP…, BUT it isn’t OP, ity’s just versatile vs all and any builds, provided you are creative. So it can counter any build with decent play, which isn’t true for the “Maximum builds”.

Should be most things I can deep up from my memory regarding the systems in GW2, please feel free to add stuff I forgot.

The whole point of condi damage is that it can’t be reduced by a simple stat, but only be cleansed or protected by through spells/items.

Since some people seem to be missing the point the short answer is that condition damage wasn’t and isn’t balance with a condi reducing stat in mind. Direct damage values are decided with the fact that they can be reduced by toughness in mind there is no equivalent for condi damage and adding one would just unnecessarily throw balance off.

I always thought vitality and cleanses was the counter to DOT.

imho toughness should be the condition that reduces ALL damage,
(surely someone with “toughness” has learnt to tolerate poisons and debilitating effects)

Ananeos.4587:

We have armor and we have toughness for physical damage. Why are there no values or stats to reduce the amount of condition damage from sources? This makes absolutely no sense to me, especially with the introduction of HoT stats.

There are. I can’t believe you missed them. Personally nearly all of my PVP / WVW builds have condi damage reduction in them.

They are just not as apparent and are more spread out across multiple classes / builds because some of them give around 90%-100% reduction, so obviously you can’t have everyone running that all the time.

Main general condi damage reducing stat is – Condition Duration. With runes and food you can have -40% reduction which stacks on top of all other stuff. It can be found on runes, foods, etc. some temporary or special event abilities grant it as well but usually to individual conditions instead of all of them.

Some classes / builds have access to resistance which is self explanatory.

In addition, a lot of classes have build in condition damage reduction into traits such as the engi armor etc.

In addition, many also have -condition duration traits to individual condis, for example mecha legs gives -30% duration reduction which stacks with everything else mentioned above.

To give you an idea of a good example, one of my engi builds is runes of melandru with – condi duration food + mecha legs + condi damage reduction armor trait, giving me a flat 20% condi dmg reduction + a whooping 70% chill duration. Can you guess how my fights go against flavor of the month chill oriented reapers ? I have to be literally AFK or smoking a cig or drinking and playing 1 handed for them to beat me.

You can do similar with many classes, its especially easy on war as well.

Some otehr classes have traits that affect a single condi, but even further, for example -50% to poison (i forgot which one of my toons this was though)

etc. etc.

There is plenty condi reduction, you jsut have to move your mouse over stuff and read the descriptions. Trais, foods, runes. Check them out.

Condition damage does too little damage to have that applied.

sephiroth.4217:

I always thought vitality and cleanses was the counter to DOT.

And Healing Power, technically. Sort of.
Except it’s the Worst Attribute™.

Rauderi.8706:

sephiroth.4217:

I always thought vitality and cleanses was the counter to DOT.

And Healing Power, technically. Sort of.
Except it’s the Worst Attribute™.

Vitality is not, we can say the same for direct damage.
Healing power is not either -> hello poison.

Conditions don’t have counter, only cleanses, condition damage reduction or duration reductions via traits.

Ananeos.4587:

We have armor and we have toughness for physical damage. Why are there no values or stats to reduce the amount of condition damage from sources? This makes absolutely no sense to me, especially with the introduction of HoT stats.

It’s called vitality.

Vitality is not a counter to anything. Please stop saying that. Healing power is actually an indirect counter to damage over time but it does not reduced the effectiveness of a damage over time effect but just counters the effect on real time.

These are not counters to damage over time regarding effectiveness. There are no counters to condition damage at this time.

Vitality IS a counter, and at minimum, a mitigation to condition damage. Conditions inflict a set amount of damage. How do you avoid dying to a set amount of damage? By having greater health.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Vitality IS a counter, and at minimum, a mitigation to condition damage. Conditions inflict a set amount of damage. How do you avoid dying to a set amount of damage? By having greater health.

Agreed!

From the Wiki, the very first thing written about Vitality: “Vitality is a defensive attribute. Each attribute point put into vitality increases the maximum health of the character by ten hitpoints. More health allows a character to better withstand burst damage and degenerative damage.”

~EW

edit: there’s always going to be people/mobs that have outrageous condi damage, just like there’s always going to be people/mobs with outrageous burst/physical damage. That doesn’t invalidate vitality as a defensive stat any more than that burst/physical invalidates toughness.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Vitality IS a counter, and at minimum, a mitigation to condition damage. Conditions inflict a set amount of damage. How do you avoid dying to a set amount of damage? By having greater health.

Effective Hit Points is no counter.

To ask it bluntly choosing a warrior, which has greater health than a guardian, is a counter to condition damage?

Because that’s exactly what you’re saying even if you don’t intend to imply it. Given the same Vitality the max health of some classes will always be lower.

So what is their counter?

DGraves.3720:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Vitality IS a counter, and at minimum, a mitigation to condition damage. Conditions inflict a set amount of damage. How do you avoid dying to a set amount of damage? By having greater health.

Effective Hit Points is no counter.

To ask it bluntly choosing a warrior, which has greater health than a guardian, is a counter to condition damage?

To answer bluntly: yes

While conditions are always a concern, I don’t worry as much about stacking on the cond cleanse on my warrior nearly as much as I do my guard. My warrior’s extra health gives me more time to deal with and even survive incoming conds.

DGraves.3720:

Because that’s exactly what you’re saying even if you don’t intend to imply it. Given the same Vitality the max health of some classes will always be lower.

So what is their counter?

Balance isn’t necessarily an obvious 1 for 1 exchange (one stat for another). For instance, guards have access to a larger variety and more frequent cond cleanse than warriors… whether or not they elect to use it.

~EW

But effective hitpoints is the counter.

You’re just looking at EHP from the very narrow side of vitality only.

EHP is more than just that, its healing, cleansing, hp, toughness (useless in this case), and resistance (only relevant boon in this case).

EHP is only things that effect normal damage ( damage that flows through its formulas uninterrupted ). Damage mitigation (blocking/premature termination) is not part of EHP.

If class choice is literally the primier source of mitigation. Why be anything but a warrior? Why even have a linear stat like vitality to begin with?

Regardless this is all false. Reducing damage taken is not equivalent to being able to take more damage. There is no actual armor against condition damage. Reducing the duration is the damage per tick. Reducing the percentage of health loss is not reducing the damage per tick.

A 20% defense against burning is not equal to surviving a burn for 20% longer.

DGraves.3720:

EHP is only things that effect normal damage ( damage that flows through its formulas uninterrupted ). Damage mitigation (blocking/premature termination) is not part of EHP.

If class choice is literally the primier source of mitigation. Why be anything but a warrior? Why even have a linear stat like vitality to begin with?

Regardless this is all false. Reducing damage taken is not equivalent to being able to take more damage. There is no actual armor against condition damage. Reducing the duration is the damage per tick. Reducing the percentage of health loss is not reducing the damage per tick.

A 20% defense against burning is not equal to surviving a burn for 20% longer.

Well, no really ?

Who would have guessed that %’s dont work that way.

You’re looking at this the wrong way let me just math this simply for you

If you have 20k hp and I have 19K hp, you have 20k worth of ticking condi damage on you and refuse to heal, cleanse, or use resistance while i have the same 20k ticking damage but cleanse all of it, who lives more ?

Its all a part of EHP calculations.

Unless you want to argue that you don’t take prot and weakness into EHP calculations in which case we are done here as you are doing vacuum math.

DGraves.3720:

Condition damage does too little damage to have that applied.

Pretty much this. Such a stat would scale worse than healing power, except in the opposite way. This stat would be pretty much useless with only a bit of investment and/or be broken at maximum investment.

TexZero.7910:

You’re looking at this the wrong way let me just math this simply for you

If you have 20k hp and I have 19K hp, you have 20k worth of ticking condi damage on you and refuse to heal, cleanse, or use resistance while i have the same 20k ticking damage but cleanse all of it, who lives more ?

You’re changing up the variables to purposely imbalance the equation.

If you have 19k hp, and I have 20k, and we both have 20k of ticking cond damage and we both don’t do anything about it, then we both die. You still die first.

If you have 19k hp, and I have 20k, and we both have 19.5k of ticking cond damage and we both don’t do anything about it, then you die. (and I’ll get killed shortly thereafter by a kitten sneezing on me. )

If you have 19k hp, and I have 20k, and we both have 20k of ticking cond damage, I have more time to use a cleanse before dying than you do.

~EW

edit: so that extra hp gives me more time to live and less (but still existent) need to cleanse… which means I don’t need to stack as many cleanses as you do. My higher Hp + fewer cond cleanses should somewhat balance to your fewer HP and more cleanses.

TexZero.7910:

DGraves.3720:

EHP is only things that effect normal damage ( damage that flows through its formulas uninterrupted ). Damage mitigation (blocking/premature termination) is not part of EHP.

If class choice is literally the primier source of mitigation. Why be anything but a warrior? Why even have a linear stat like vitality to begin with?

Regardless this is all false. Reducing damage taken is not equivalent to being able to take more damage. There is no actual armor against condition damage. Reducing the duration is the damage per tick. Reducing the percentage of health loss is not reducing the damage per tick.

A 20% defense against burning is not equal to surviving a burn for 20% longer.

Well, no really ?

Who would have guessed that %’s dont work that way.

You’re looking at this the wrong way let me just math this simply for you

If you have 20k hp and I have 19K hp, you have 20k worth of ticking condi damage on you and refuse to heal, cleanse, or use resistance while i have the same 20k ticking damage but cleanse all of it, who lives more ?

Its all a part of EHP calculations.

Unless you want to argue that you don’t take prot and weakness into EHP calculations in which case we are done here as you are doing vacuum math.

You don’t actually understand EHP.

First you can only use formula generated values. For instance if you have a 50% block chance that the game decides that can be Effective HP but skills that are player controlled cannot be because they’re not predictable. How do i calculate your choice to wait until you have 7 stacks before using your skill versus someone who waits only for3?

Secondly EHP can’t mitigate anything because it’s a summation of normalized mitigation itself. Basically a measurement of your ability to survive hypothetically under normal circumstances.

So your 20k/s deal is truly abnormal. We would both die, you’d have zero hp and i -1000. Condition mitigation lowers the real damage. Using your example if i had 50% Condition mitigation I would live for a second even with incoming damage greater than my real healthpool. Vitality does not do this.

Actually you’ve proven my point. If you have 20k and i have 19k and there’s 20k damage stacked presuming you do nothing you die. Vitally doesn’t mitigate anything.

DGraves.3720:

Actually you’ve proven my point. If you have 20k and i have 19k and there’s 20k damage stacked presuming you do nothing you die. Vitally doesn’t mitigate anything.

Sigh okay….

So having the same ticking damage and more HP means nothing ?

Sir, you do understand what EHP means right ?
You do understand that in this game, healing = EHP, Boons = EHP, and Cleansing = EHP.

Lets just ignore for a second the debate of “condi duration”

Which one gives you more EHP

1) 3k health / 3k Toughness
2) 3k health / 3k Toughness / Protection
3) 3k health / 3k Toughness / Protection / Regen

So, do you really want to argue that having a source of +HP doesn’t contribute to EHP ?

If so….i have no words. As healing = Health which is the entire premise of EHP.

Now then, back to condi’s

If you have the same as above replace “Toughness” with Vitality and replace Prot with Resistance.

The design concern that the OP raises is an interesting one. Should there be a single stat that reduces condition damage in the same way that toughness reduces direct damage?

One might argue that duration reduction does that. One might also argue that duration reduction is the counter for duration increase, However, it does reduce the duration of conditions without duration increase.

Ultimately, though, this is a balance issue as well as a design issue. The GW2 character design system is a thing of many parts. Stats on armor/weapons/trinkets is but one part, albeit a big one. Looked at this way, the question should become, is defense versus conditions lacking? This is really the same question as asking whether condition damage is over-powered.

Then we come to the issue of PvP modes versus PvE. As before the introduction of Expertise, condition damage has similar issues when contrasted with direct damage in PvE. Direct damage can be front-loaded. Condition damage is back-loaded. However, it’s clear that conditions are in a better place than they were last year.

So, have those changes made conditions OP in WvW/sPvP? There were complaints about conditions being OP in PvP modes before the changes to conditions and the introduction of Expertise. But, is condi really OP, or is it that those complaining are failing to make full use of the stats/mechanics that reduce or eliminate conditions? Before asking for a new stat — which would add yet more complications to gearing — what we ought to be determining is whether the current tools are clearly inadequate. I’m certainly not ready to make that assertion.

TexZero.7910:

DGraves.3720:

Actually you’ve proven my point. If you have 20k and i have 19k and there’s 20k damage stacked presuming you do nothing you die. Vitally doesn’t mitigate anything.

Sigh okay….

So having the same ticking damage and more HP means nothing ?

Sir, you do understand what EHP means right ?
You do understand that in this game, healing = EHP, Boons = EHP, and Cleansing = EHP.

Lets just ignore for a second the debate of “condi duration”

Which one gives you more EHP

1) 3k health / 3k Toughness
2) 3k health / 3k Toughness / Protection
3) 3k health / 3k Toughness / Protection / Regen

So, do you really want to argue that having a source of +HP doesn’t contribute to EHP ?

If so….i have no words. As healing = Health which is the entire premise of EHP.

Now then, back to condi’s

If you have the same as above replace “Toughness” with Vitality and replace Prot with Resistance.

How long is your DoT?
I took it all in 1/s to prove the point.
Clearly you wanted it to be longer so that the rest of your stuff kicked in and worked Like You think it does.

Mitigation is simple:

You have 100 hp. You have 100 incoming damage.

How much does your regeneration help you? 0.
How much does having 100 hp vs. 70 help you? 0.
How much does the cleanse you don’t have time to use help you? 0.

How much does “take 100% less damage from all sources” help you? …

As for how ehp works let’s save that for when i actually want to talk to you.

I’ve always thought both boons and condition duration don’t have enough responses for a game that is supposedly all about ‘action and reaction’ play. Either you have the responses for them slotted, or you don’t. It’s like the original two blue mana Counterspell in MTG, its universally applicable and yet its only responses were itself and a few henpecked cards spread throughout the game. It was just all in all a terribly thought out and designed card and was eventually removed from most formats because of it.

Additionally they both seem regularly disrupt PvP and WvW balance with the slightest changes and create lasting dependencies on certain playstyles in PvE, like might stacking.

What I’d like to see, instead of just gimping the whole system or adding an unnecessary set of new stats, is making them work against each other the same way armor and power do elsewhere in the system. If they’re not balanced, make them balance each other out.

Each boon and condition would be partnered, with the intention that each cancel each other based on their durations when the countering boon or condition is applied. Note, their durations, NOT their stacks, so boon and condition duration are, if anything, more valuable, while having more counterplay. Because there isn’t a 1:1 ratio of boons to conditions I had to do some finagling with the existing boons and conditions.

Cunning(X)Bleeding (Note: New boon, Cunning – increases condition damage)
Might(X)Burning (Note: Might now only affects power damage)
Alacrity(X)Chill (Note: Alacrity is still not a boon, this is an exception to the rule)
Quickness(X)Slow
Stability(X)Immobilize
Daring(X)Torment (Note: New boon, Daring – Gain bonus damage on your next attack)
Fury(X)Weakness (Note: Weakness now only reduces critical damage)
Swiftness(X)Cripple
Vigor(X)Lethargy (Note: New condition, Lethargy- Reduced endurance regeneration)
Unerring(X)Blind (Note: New condition, Unerring- Your next attack is unblockable)
Retaliation(X)Confusion
Regeneration(X)Poison
Protection(X)Vulnerability
Resistance(X)Fear
Aegis(X)Taunt

Example:
You have 25 stacks of 8s might, that’s a total of 200 seconds of might, so if someone comes along and sticks you with 25 2s stacks of burning, that’s only a total of 50 seconds, and will cause you to lose 6 of your might stacks.

DGraves & TexZero:

Your arguments are starting to become very difficult to follow. Please remember to Keep It Simple Silly.

Atm you’re discussing the validity of Vitality (or Hitpoints) as a defense against Condition Damage. So, that should be the only variable you use, with all else being equal… especially the condition damage you’re applying to the situation.

If I have 2 characters: #1 has 12k hp and #2 has 20k hp. (this is actually true /facepalm)… Looking at them with no condition cleansing or healing, just Vitality/HP:

*20k worth of Cond damage (over any amount of duration) = both eventually die, that’s true. But #2 dies last if the condition is applied over time instead of all at once (like cond damage does).

*15k worth of Cond damage = #1 dies, #2 lives.

More hit points in this last case was a viable defense against Cond damage for #2 over #1.

Now, throw in factors like healing/cleanses/etc… it’ll get more complicated. But when Isolated, it is demonstrable that Vitality is a defense against degenerative damage just like the Wiki states.

~EW

edit: If I missed something in your posts and misinterpreted/misrepresented you, I apologize…. as I said, getting a little hard to follow.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

DGraves & TexZero:

Your arguments are starting to become very difficult to follow. Please remember to Keep It Simple Silly.

Atm you’re discussing the validity of Vitality (or Hitpoints) as a defense against Condition Damage. So, that should be the only variable you use, with all else being equal… especially the condition damage you’re applying to the situation.

If I have 2 characters: #1 has 12k hp and #2 has 20k hp. (this is actually true /facepalm)… Looking at them with no condition cleansing or healing, just Vitality/HP:

*20k worth of Cond damage (over any amount of duration) = both eventually die, that’s true. But #2 dies last if the condition is applied over time instead of all at once (like cond damage does).

*15k worth of Cond damage = #1 dies, #2 lives.

More hit points in this last case was a viable defense against Cond damage for #2 over #1.

Now, throw in factors like healing/cleanses/etc… it’ll get more complicated. But when Isolated, it is demonstrable that Vitality is a defense against degenerative damage just like the Wiki states.

~EW

Survival isn’t defense.

To be Frank the question is as simple as “if you walk up to a lvl 1 enemy butt nekkid and he hits you and you don’t die did you mitigate anything?”

Sadly a lot of people are saying “yes” even without armor.

DGraves.3720:

Survival isn’t defense.

To be Frank the question is as simple as “if you walk up to a lvl 1 enemy butt nekkid and he hits you and you don’t die did you mitigate anything?”

If you’re comparing yourself to the other guy who did die, and the only thing different between you two is HP… then the answer is yes.

Defense increases survival. Survival is the purpose for defense/mitigation.

Perhaps that’s where the root of the disagreement really is?

~EW

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

DGraves.3720:

Survival isn’t defense.

To be Frank the question is as simple as “if you walk up to a lvl 1 enemy butt nekkid and he hits you and you don’t die did you mitigate anything?”

If you’re comparing yourself to the other guy who did die, and the only thing different between you two is HP… then the answer is yes.

Defense increases survival. Survival is the purpose for defense/mitigation.

Perhaps that’s where the root of the disagreement really is?

~EW

But if survival isn’t mitigation death is not a lack of mitigation. Both your characters die if hit for 20k right?

So which mitigated more damage?

The answer is we dont know. What if the one who had 15k hp had a damage reduction of 10%? He mitigated 2k of the 20k but still died. The 20k guy mitigates nothing and still dies.

Understand that mitigation does not equate survival

DGraves.3720:

But if survival isn’t mitigation death is not a lack of mitigation. Both your characters die if hit for 20k right?

Mitigation is a type of defense, but it is not the the only type of defense… so maybe that’s also where the confusion is…. bad use of words goin’ around.

So, it appears that I’m arguing that Vitality is a valid general defense against condition damage

And, you’re arguing that Vitality doesn’t reduce (mitigate) damage taken by condition damage.

Is that right? Then we’re arguing two different things.

I agree that damage reduction (mitigation) isn’t applied by Vitality. But, can you agree that Vitality does act as a defense against condition damage in that it allows someone to soak more damage before death?

DGraves.3720:

So which mitigated more damage?

The answer is we dont know. What if the one who had 15k hp had a damage reduction of 10%? He mitigated 2k of the 20k but still died. The 20k guy mitigates nothing and still dies.

Understand that mitigation does not equate survival

I stated that for the example all other things needed to be equal to isolate Vitality/Hp. So if one has 10% damage mitigation, then the other one would, too.

Once we start adding in things like pure damage mitigation, healing, cleansing, etc, the discussion changes to how useful vitality is as a defense against condition damage.

Mitigation does not equate survival, I agree… But, mitigation is a factor in survival, just like other types of defense.

:D

~EW

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

I stated that for the example all other things needed to be equal to isolate Vitality/Hp. So if one has 10% damage mitigation, then the other one would, too.

That is the point.

If you only consider vitality neither survives.

If you only consider true mitigation one survives if on equal footing.

Vitality isn’t mitigation. The explanation is this:

If we took two characters with equal hp, lets say you 15k, and i threw a fireball worth 20k which survives?

Ill give guy A 5k hp.

Ill give guy B 33% damage reduction.

B survives. A doesn’t. Why?

B actually took less damage. A took it all.

B just cast Protection. A came up with 500 Vitality.

What good that did him.

Condition dmg has no counter like protection. A huge health pool doesn’t actually lessen damage and real mitigation is way more effective.

DGraves.3720:

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

I stated that for the example all other things needed to be equal to isolate Vitality/Hp. So if one has 10% damage mitigation, then the other one would, too.

That is the point.

If you only consider vitality neither survives.

If you only consider true mitigation one survives if on equal footing.

Vitality isn’t mitigation. The explanation is this:

If we took two characters with equal hp, lets say you 15k, and i threw a fireball worth 20k which survives?

Ill give guy A 5k hp.

Ill give guy B 33% damage reduction.

B survives. A doesn’t. Why?

B actually took less damage. A took it all.

B just cast Protection. A came up with 500 Vitality.

What good that did him.

Condition dmg has no counter like protection. A huge health pool doesn’t actually lessen damage and real mitigation is way more effective.

DGraves, you seem to have ignored the first part of my post that you quoted… I get verbose, so I can understand.

my point: 1) mitigation is a type of defense, but it’s not the only type. 2) I agree that vitality does not mitigate condition damage. 3) I’m arguing that vitality is a defense against condition damage, even though it is not mitigation.

I think that the words mitigation and defense have been used interchangeably earlier on, when they shouldn’t have been.

Vitality isn’t direct mitigation. Vitality is a defense.

~EW

Also, whether or not Vitality is a good defense (and better/worse than direct mitigation) is debatable.

DGraves, you’ve said it isn’t. I think it is at least on par. At this we’re going to have to agree to disagree… because from my perspective Vitality = extra time alive (and the same can be said for mitigation)… If other more savvy people wish to try, I hope they do.

~EW

edit: Where’s an Asura when you need one? And I keep looking down for one, too!

Khyan.7039:

Rauderi.8706:

sephiroth.4217:

I always thought vitality and cleanses was the counter to DOT.

And Healing Power, technically. Sort of.
Except it’s the Worst Attribute™.

Vitality is not, we can say the same for direct damage.
Healing power is not either -> hello poison.

Conditions don’t have counter, only cleanses, condition damage reduction or duration reductions via traits.

Vitality is… The more health you have, the longer it will take for you to bleed out. If you have an extra 1000 health and you’re bleeding out at say 100 per second then that 1000 health has now bought you an extra 10 ticks or 10 seconds, therefor technically making it a counter, it’s pretty simple math tbh.

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

Also, whether or not Vitality is a good defense (and better/worse than mitigation) is debatable.

DGraves, you’ve said it isn’t. I think it is at least on par. At this we’re going to have to agree to disagree… because from my perspective Vitality = extra time alive (and the same can be said for mitigation)… If other more savvy people wish to try, I hope they do.

~EW

This is sums up the arguments made.

Graves wants to only look at one aspect of the equation, and not the whole picture.
When pointed out that vitality which not true damage mitigation does increase your durability against conditions he reverts back to, vitality isn’t a counter.

The same little back and forth can be made of any argument of any damage. The only thing that is a true direct counter to any damage is to not take damage.

Other than that use the tools provided to you to reduce incoming damage which will allow you to survive (counterplay) and there is plenty of it when it comes to conditions.

Condition damage should be reduced by toughness/protection and condition duration reduced by vitality

But in general conditions should have it damage portion removed and be changed to debuffs (opposite effect of boons) as they are too broken in pvp and you clearly can see it by 4+ necros per match in spvp abusing the kitten out of it /thread

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

DGraves, you seem to have ignored the first part of my post that you quoted… I get verbose, so I can understand.

my point: 1) mitigation is a type of defense, but it’s not the only type. 2) I agree that vitality does not mitigate condition damage. 3) I’m arguing that vitality is a defense against condition damage, even though it is not mitigation.

I think that the words mitigation and defense have been used interchangeably earlier on, when they shouldn’t have been.

Vitality isn’t direct mitigation. Vitality is a defense.

~EW

I read that portion but the problem with it was that if we talk about what is and is not defense that goes into a whole new realm of problems. Vitality is a type of defense. You know what else can be considered defense? Overpowering the enemy. Offense, evasiveness, and other forms of non-traditional aspects of defensive strategy do exist and while no one thinks of them as such very often are definitely not new to gaming. A top tier example is burn phases; you can burn an enemy so badly that they go into the second phase meaning they have no offensive counter and if you keep it up they go down without a real fight, I.E. Tequatl.

I wanted to evade that at all costs and stay on topic; mitigation is not just a type of defense but it is actually “textbook” defense. You wear armor. You have toughness. You have protection as a skill. These are actually mitigation, they truly reduce the effects of something against you by lessening the incoming damage versus trying to withstand the incoming damage taking it in full through sheer numerical superiority.

They are very different. But fine, let’s get into it.

So, vitality is a defense against condition damage. True or false? False. Why?

First and foremost it doesn’t actually defend against anything in particular. Vitality is vitality, it doesn’t work with anything, it doesn’t make your defenses better or worse, doesn’t effect your offensive capabilities per se, and has no direct influence on your evasive or manipulative abilities. It’s pretty stand alone. It is one of two specific stats that has this nature.

Vitality will make you live longer, but living longer is not the same as being able to outlive a status effect and it isn’t the same as being a calculable state in order to prepare for a status. What makes a defense specifically defensive is, for all rights and purposes, planning. This is where vitality fails; can you really plan to evade X bleeds? Can you really say “I will build enough vitality to survive Y burning stacks at Z damage per tick!”? No. Armor and toughness are directly calculable but vitality’s overall effect is, for all rights and purposes, actually completely unknown.

Sometimes you’ll survive by a hair margin and sometimes you won’t but that’s more “life” than it is smart planning and getting 20,000 more health to prepare for that fireball that’s coming. Because if it never comes you just have a wonky amount of health.

To that end because it’s just a general stat it isn’t actually defensive against condition damage. It just let’s you be the damage sponge you built yourself to be and coincidentally works out that way no different than sometimes you accidentally survive things you shouldn’t have or press a wrong key and it happens to be delicious.

Perhaps in finality I believe that defenses are deliberate, calculable, and predictable. Vitality does not have two of these particular traits.

DGraves.3720:

snip

wow seems like you really want to win this conversation. even i could grasp what he was trying to say. vitality IS a type of defense, because it adds defensive stats to your total defense, making you more defensive! like toughness does! its a pretty well known fact that more vitality = more survivability against conditions. im not saying that youre wrong. outplaying your opponent and evading key attacks goes a long way. im just saying chill.

Stand The Wall.6987:

DGraves.3720:

snip

wow seems like you really want to win this conversation. even i could grasp what he was trying to say. vitality IS a type of defense, because it adds defensive stats to your total defense, making you more defensive! like toughness does! its a pretty well known fact that more vitality = more survivability against conditions. im not saying that youre wrong. outplaying your opponent and evading key attacks goes a long way. im just saying chill.

I understand that but there’s a difference between “Vitality is a defense” and “Vitality is a defense against condition damage” since the latter is a statement of design.

DGraves.3720:

I understand that but there’s a difference between “Vitality is a defense” and “Vitality is a defense against condition damage” since the latter is a statement of design.

Lucky for us Vitality is both those statements. Which just goes to show how awesome it is!

~EW

EphemeralWallaby.7643:

DGraves.3720:

I understand that but there’s a difference between “Vitality is a defense” and “Vitality is a defense against condition damage” since the latter is a statement of design.

Lucky for us Vitality is both those statements. Which just goes to show how awesome it is!

~EW

I’ll never understand how this works in your heads. You do everything to prove it wrong, succeed, and then go with it anyway. You literally proved that vitality isn’t a defense against condition damage because it doesn’t mitigate anything and with the 20k / 15k comparison showed that incoming damage reduction is more effective than vitality at everything!

You did it but… It’s like weird to me.

wow lol you should be a politician.

Stand The Wall.6987:

wow lol you should be a politician.

I’m am a member of the Order of the Dismal (economist) by day. It’s far, far worse than any politician.