Guild Wars 2

In a never-ending quest for balance a skill is constantly being nerfed somewhere. It may be desired in one mode but affects the other 2 that did not need the balance. Then it needs to be balanced again because now things in the other modes are out of balance. Usually it is pvp they are balancing around, but now we are seeing this happen elsewhere.

Why not have different levels of nerfs/buffs for each mode? Some things need serious work, true, so have those changes be to all 3. If something needs to be balanced in one mode though, but the other 2 are fine, why not just keep the changes to that mode?

+1 The original Guild Wars has the same thing.

I agree, PvP dagger dagger ele is a problem but it isn’t really an issue in WvW and PvE. In fact you would have to be in a very small party in WvW (10 ish or less) for it to be highly effective. Otherwise any bigger fights and you want staff Ele for static field/area denial. And in PvE you want staff, period. This could happen with any class, if it is a problem in WvW or PvE nerf those specific modes not the class as a whole.

This game has 3 game modes that are all legitimate. PvE, PvP, and WvW. I would not sacrifice balance in two of the modes for balance in one. Some things like Icebow needed a nerf. And other changes which are not strictly hard nerfs but quality of life or slight nerfs (ex. dagger offhand on ele #4 applying burning inside the ring and 1 more on ring edge) could be permissible.

Ok…so we already know Anets record with balancing this game.

Your solution is to create two more games for them to balance.

fireflyry.7023:

Ok…so we already know Anets record with balancing this game.

Your solution is to create two more games for them to balance.

Doesn’t mean they can’t do it right. It isn’t that hard. Something is a problem in 1 game mode → Figure out how to nerf that mode. If it isn’t? Leave it alone.

In all honesty I’d rather take balance on the basis of game mode not on “this class is OP in general” because typically it is not universally true among all game modes.

Senario.2038:

Doesn’t mean they can’t do it right. It isn’t that hard.

Oh, so you know all about balancing an MMO then do you?

I honestly see this as creating more work for the devs which imho would create more issues than it would solve. Bugs and balancing issues already take an age to fix.This would increase that ten-fold.

You’re also neglecting that Anet has always wanted and promoted GW2, from day one, as having an open an easy transition between all formats of the game so players can take what they have learnt from one mode and jump straight into another only needing to learn the mode type and playstyle….not a whole new set of skill mechanics.

fireflyry.7023:

Senario.2038:

Doesn’t mean they can’t do it right. It isn’t that hard.

Oh, so you know all about balancing an MMO then do you?

I honestly see this as creating more work for the devs which imho would create more issues than it would solve. Bugs and balancing issues already take an age to fix.This would increase that ten-fold.

You’re also neglecting that Anet has always wanted and promoted GW2, from day one, as having an open an easy transition between all formats of the game so players can take what they have learnt from one mode and jump straight into another only needing to learn the mode type and playstyle….not a whole new set of skill mechanics.

Except that comes at the expense of balancing around one game mode where other sections are fine. I really don’t appreciate the personal attack about balancing MMOs. It is not huge differences but number tuning for different modes. It is a highly preferable system than having one mode dictate balance in other modes that we have now. The condescending actions of the balance team aside. They were pretty smug about the elementalist changes which is surprising for a professional game company.

It wasn’t a personal attack, you just took it that way. It was a question…do you actually know enough about MMO balancing to state it’s not that hard?

You’re not thinking of the bigger picture, for example the segregation this would create in the community, the effect all that balancing would have on neglect in other aspects of the game, etc, etc.

These side-effects seem pretty obvious if you put serious thought into it and again, Anet promote this game as being easy to transition, level and play in all modes so I just can’t see it happening.

Menadena.7482:

Why not have skill sets for each mode?

…because necromancers must not have stability boon.
It would be too confusing for players, this is your answer.
By the way, did you know that wvw = pve? So, less work to do.
“Look at me: still talking when there’s science to do!”

Balance only really matters in PvP and WvW since some program can’t whisper how you only won because you aren’t following some algorithm or whatever. Even if a class is subpar for PvE and good for PvP (like rogues in Cataclysm and maybe before and after…haven’t been keeping track) that’s a form of balance right there. Sure the warrior is objectively superior to the rogue or raids and dungeons, but the rogue has abilities and skillsets more suited for fighting against other players, whose HP pool and attacks are drastically weaker than a dungeon boss. The warrior on the other hand lasts much longer and has more stable damage output, not to mention the ability to queue as a tank (whose gearset is great for specialized purposes in PvP for flag carrying, though a Paladin would have some healing to augment the mostly tank gear).

Balancing for both game modes however is much more difficult, you’ll have to make sure everyone is approximately equal in both PvE and PvP instead of having instances like above where some are underpowered for PvE but somewhat overpowered for PvP and vice versa.

fireflyry.7023:

It wasn’t a personal attack, you just took it that way. It was a question…do you actually know enough about MMO balancing to state it’s not that hard?

You’re not thinking of the bigger picture, for example the segregation this would create in the community, the effect all that balancing would have on neglect in other aspects of the game, etc, etc.

These side-effects seem pretty obvious if you put serious thought into it and again, Anet promote this game as being easy to transition, level and play in all modes so I just can’t see it happening.

Yes in fact, I would say I do know enough to know it isn’t that hard to balance an MMO based on game mode. The community will not at all be split based on game mode and balance changes simply because everybody already is split into the game modes that are available. These side effects don’t actually seem to be as much of a problem as you make it out to be as it will be easy to play in all modes regardless of small changes between modes. These aren’t giant changes here such as entirely new skills.

I do think in the bigger picture it is better for the game. People who are playing the game primarily for fun do not want things nerfed in a game mode that has no problem with the build. Having small changes that affect individual game modes is much better as most players who play for fun won’t even notice. At the top levels of play it will matter but only in that specific game mode rather than affecting every player regardless of what mode they prefer.

I will point to ele since it is the most recent nerfs to come out of this “balance around 1 gamemode” type balancing. Dagger Dagger is blatantly too strong in PvP, nobody is arguing this. However it is only a niche build in both WvW and PvE where staff dominates BOTH styles of gameplay. Nerfing the build in general rather than nerfing it within a specific mode has adverse effects on all builds across all gamemodes. Dagger Dagger was largely not an issue in PvE obviously and in World v World the hard CC of Staff Ele was a lot more useful for the group than a Dagger Dagger build unless you were in a very small roaming group. For your average player they will not understand why something is nerfed based on one competitive game mode in a game with 3 game modes. This is not good for the playerbase as discontent leads to quitting. Now, the nerf may be absolutely necessary in PvP but how do you explain to WvW and PvE that now a build that was only meh in those modes is now even more meh and they must play Staff to be effective.

Having seperate balances for gamemodes solves this problem as you can change balance without adversely affecting playerbases who do not participate nor care to participate in one of the 3 gamemodes.

You can argue “but you can already play what you want” though the problem is that now the group suffers because of one person’s want to play a certain style. This is absolutely devastating in World v World where going down is hard punished with multiple rallies for the enemy guild.

fireflyry.7023:

I honestly see this as creating more work for the devs which imho would create more issues than it would solve. Bugs and balancing issues already take an age to fix.This would increase that ten-fold.

You’re also neglecting that Anet has always wanted and promoted GW2, from day one, as having an open an easy transition between all formats of the game so players can take what they have learnt from one mode and jump straight into another only needing to learn the mode type and playstyle….not a whole new set of skill mechanics.

OPs change was proposed many times for both gw2 and wow in both cases excuse was “we don’t want players to be confused with difference between modes” – I call BS.
The only difference would be numbers on attacks not whole mechanics. Since PvE and PvP targets tend to have different mechanics and different stats mixing different numbers on abilities won’t be even noticed.

As for additional work, If they split game into 2(3 might be overkill) modes(which they did for some skills) It could actually save time balancing. Instead of thinking of clever way to buff/nerf something while not breaking it in other modes they could just easily adjust numbers for one mode and not care about it in other(unless it was needed as well). That way they could buff something underpowered in pvp while not make it op in pve and vice versa, no need for looking for some loophole to achieve that. The only concern there would be "Are proposed number changes for WvW mode breaking kitten in PvE? – usually answer is not – seeing how absolute balance is not necessary in pve.

PvE try hards will abuse strongest class/spec no matter how little difference in power is, for all the rest as long as class is good enough to play comfortably it doesn’t matter. And don’t say it matters, because it really doesn’t. If you’re min/maxing you either do it right and roll what is strongest or don’t bother and play whatever you find fun.

Senario.2038:

I will point to ele since it is the most recent nerfs to come out of this “balance around 1 gamemode” type balancing. Dagger Dagger is blatantly too strong in PvP, nobody is arguing this. However it is only a niche build in both WvW and PvE where staff dominates BOTH styles of gameplay. Nerfing the build in general rather than nerfing it within a specific mode has adverse effects on all builds across all gamemodes. Dagger Dagger was largely not an issue in PvE obviously and in World v World the hard CC of Staff Ele was a lot more useful for the group than a Dagger Dagger build unless you were in a very small roaming group. For your average player they will not understand why something is nerfed based on one competitive game mode in a game with 3 game modes. This is not good for the playerbase as discontent leads to quitting. Now, the nerf may be absolutely necessary in PvP but how do you explain to WvW and PvE that now a build that was only meh in those modes is now even more meh and they must play Staff to be effective.

Having seperate balances for gamemodes solves this problem as you can change balance without adversely affecting playerbases who do not participate nor care to participate in one of the 3 gamemodes.

You can argue “but you can already play what you want” though the problem is that now the group suffers because of one person’s want to play a certain style. This is absolutely devastating in World v World where going down is hard punished with multiple rallies for the enemy guild.

Exactly. A new player comes in, plays a D/D elementalist in PVE because it works for them (not everyone goes for the most optimized stats, some look for what is fun). Suddenly it gets reduced because it was too powerful in PVP … a mode they do not care about. This happens every few months. Eventually they leave because they can never count on something that was their fave one day will work the same way the next … and have nothing to do how they play the game.

Menadena.7482:

Senario.2038:

I will point to ele since it is the most recent nerfs to come out of this “balance around 1 gamemode” type balancing. Dagger Dagger is blatantly too strong in PvP, nobody is arguing this. However it is only a niche build in both WvW and PvE where staff dominates BOTH styles of gameplay. Nerfing the build in general rather than nerfing it within a specific mode has adverse effects on all builds across all gamemodes. Dagger Dagger was largely not an issue in PvE obviously and in World v World the hard CC of Staff Ele was a lot more useful for the group than a Dagger Dagger build unless you were in a very small roaming group. For your average player they will not understand why something is nerfed based on one competitive game mode in a game with 3 game modes. This is not good for the playerbase as discontent leads to quitting. Now, the nerf may be absolutely necessary in PvP but how do you explain to WvW and PvE that now a build that was only meh in those modes is now even more meh and they must play Staff to be effective.

Having seperate balances for gamemodes solves this problem as you can change balance without adversely affecting playerbases who do not participate nor care to participate in one of the 3 gamemodes.

You can argue “but you can already play what you want” though the problem is that now the group suffers because of one person’s want to play a certain style. This is absolutely devastating in World v World where going down is hard punished with multiple rallies for the enemy guild.

Exactly. A new player comes in, plays a D/D elementalist in PVE because it works for them (not everyone goes for the most optimized stats, some look for what is fun). Suddenly it gets reduced because it was too powerful in PVP … a mode they do not care about. This happens every few months. Eventually they leave because they can never count on something that was their fave one day will work the same way the next … and have nothing to do how they play the game.

This is the exact reason why I ditched my level 55-ish ele over 2 years ago. It was so much fun playing it and combat was great. Then they made a balance change because it was too powerful in PvP. This change in PvP forced onto me in PvE left me extremely weak in combat and changed how all of the skills felt and destroyed the playstyle I spent a long time developing and getting used to. I finally had a great feel for the profession and was having fun, then they gutted it for me and I would basically need to start learning the profession all over again.

I don’t play PvP, I only romp around and adventure in the PvE world. All this nerf forced onto PvE for the sake of PvP did was tell me they didn’t want me to enjoy playing my ele anymore. I didn’t touch ele again until last week when I thought I might give it another shot. It isn’t as bad as they had made it that while ago, but it’s still nowhere near as fun as it had been back before they started messing it up for the sake of PvP. :\

I’m still very disappointed that they insist on ‘balancing’ the game in this completely illogical fashion, seemingly because it’s easier for them and takes less effort than actually balancing the game modes for real.