Guild Wars 2

I do not want to start a discussion if Diablo 3 is a good or bad game, or which is better.

I want to talk about the paragon system. When the game was released, It had exactly the same system that GW2 has today. Like that game is all about the gear, they made ??an interesting twist:

when they reach the maximum level, the player start raising the Paragon level. What it does is simply increase your Magic Find stat. And when they reach the maximum Paragon’s level, means you’re at the Max of magic find stat. So, do you no longer need to use that gear.

Thoughts?

This resolve several thing:

• Removing magic find gear sounds a bit impossible. But this will make it useful to a certain point and then you can dedicate yourself to get the best gear for your class.
• Enter a new motivation to continue completing activities that increase the player’s experience.
• Add more sense of progression to the player.

Excuse my english! Any grammar correction would be welcomed!

+1

it takes a while to become effective, but the long term benefits are great

Eh I wasn’t a fan of it in D3 I don’t think I would like it here. BUT, if others want it I’d say it’s worth a try on a test server at least

Kagee.8470:

Eh I wasn’t a fan of it in D3 I don’t think I would like it here. BUT, if others want it I’d say it’s worth a try on a test server at least

Just curious, why not? I think it’s a great system. Makes the time you spend worth.

Lets not use something from one of the worst online games ever designed.

though it might fix your issue with this game, have you not thought about blizzard owning the coding for it. Meaning its probably copyrighted or patent on it.

I think it was more or less just me being tired of the game when the system came out. I was/am a big D2 fan and I was just expecting something different. In the context of this game though I feel like it would be a grind to get max paragon.

One thing though, I’m not the only person this game was made for. So my opinion doesn’t really matter all that much lol. I think everything is worth trying as well. I may have hated it in D3 but I might love it here, who knows.

Doggie.3184:

Lets not use something from one of the worst online games ever designed.

Please don’t do that. If you don’t like the game is ok. But here we are talking about That system, that i think is great.

The impact it has on the games economy is great. Once people finally get up there in magic find there would be a wave of weapons, armor, and others flooding the market and over time everything would be extremely cheap.

People find great joy in trying to get the gear they want and it inspires them to play now imagine if people could get all the gear they want for under a few Gold in the trading post.

Now you have to take into account the gold farmers and how their MF levels would be since they don’t have to sleep.

It sounds like makings of a perfect storm. One that has most definitely ruined D3.

I dunno about D3 cuz it was crap and I only saw the paragon system as a huge added grind, but D2 also did MF well and you didn’t need to sacrifice a lot of gear to have a ton of it (300-400%) in fact even in full MF gear you would not be hindering your party, assuming you had a decent set.

I’m really not sure how the current version of MF even got into the game, it’s horrible and should not replace a main stat… who thought this was a good idea?

I think it would have a serious impact on people who play on alts. One of the things about GW1 and GW2 that draws a lot of people is that once you have max level and max gear, you work for cosmetics. I frequently flip between lvl 80 alts based on the compisition of the group I’m playing with and group needs…..

If we had a paragon system, I might be forced to either a) grind all of my alts to max level paragon so that I can once again swap between alts and get the same game play experience, or b) choose between bringing the best character for the group / dungeon, or bringing the one that will get the best loot.

Down vote from me, sorry mate.

CassieGold.7460:

I think it would have a serious impact on people who play on alts. One of the things about GW1 and GW2 that draws a lot of people is that once you have max level and max gear, you work for cosmetics. I frequently flip between lvl 80 alts based on the compisition of the group I’m playing with and group needs…..

If we had a paragon system, I might be forced to either a) grind all of my alts to max level paragon so that I can once again swap between alts and get the same game play experience, or b) choose between bringing the best character for the group / dungeon, or bringing the one that will get the best loot.

Down vote from me, sorry mate.

Forced? Why? i’m not talking about removing magic find gear.. just make it useless in time…

Not trying to be negative here, but I would prefer they eliminate MF altogether, eliminate DR, and fix the drop rates. Simple is often best.

Spiral Architect.6540:

Not trying to be negative here, but I would prefer they eliminate MF altogether, eliminate DR, and fix the drop rates. Simple is often best.

I think the same, but like i said, removing magic find gear sounds a bit impossible… I think that this will please almost everyone.

CassieGold.7460:

I think it would have a serious impact on people who play on alts. One of the things about GW1 and GW2 that draws a lot of people is that once you have max level and max gear, you work for cosmetics. I frequently flip between lvl 80 alts based on the compisition of the group I’m playing with and group needs…..

If we had a paragon system, I might be forced to either a) grind all of my alts to max level paragon so that I can once again swap between alts and get the same game play experience, or b) choose between bringing the best character for the group / dungeon, or bringing the one that will get the best loot.

Down vote from me, sorry mate.

they had this discussion in diablo3. The answer even though they didn’t implement it is “account wide paragon system”.

marianitten.1247:

Forced? Why? i’m not talking about removing magic find gear.. just make it useless in time…

Disclaimer: I don’t run MF gear…. kind of already see it as a waste of effort (no, I don’t mind people who run it, that’s fine for them, but I like the way my characters play in other types of gear)

Here’s what I see from the D3 paragon system though. You effectively added 100 levels of Magic Find progression to a game…. a character who was Paragon lvl 100 got better loot than a pure lvl 60 character with no paragon levels. So, if I have 2 characters, both at max level, but not at the same paragon level, one gets a different gameplay experience in loot.

Weather or not MF gear should or shouldn’t exist, I could care less about. What I’m opposed to is a system that makes the character ‘better’ in this aspect of the game, simply by virtue of having more hours played. And when you get right down to it, that’s what paragon did…. made you play more hours to get more xp to get better loot.

marianitten.1247:

Spiral Architect.6540:

Not trying to be negative here, but I would prefer they eliminate MF altogether, eliminate DR, and fix the drop rates. Simple is often best.

I think the same, but like i said, removing magic find gear sounds a bit impossible… I think that this will please almost everyone.

That is why you dont’ need to remove it. Just make it so everyone can max mf without mf gear. It will have an impact on the economy though, since if everyone have more mf, theoretically there will be more item drop.

CassieGold.7460:

marianitten.1247:

Forced? Why? i’m not talking about removing magic find gear.. just make it useless in time…

Disclaimer: I don’t run MF gear…. kind of already see it as a waste of effort (no, I don’t mind people who run it, that’s fine for them, but I like the way my characters play in other types of gear)

Here’s what I see from the D3 paragon system though. You effectively added 100 levels of Magic Find progression to a game…. a character who was Paragon lvl 100 got better loot than a pure lvl 60 character with no paragon levels. So, if I have 2 characters, both at max level, but not at the same paragon level, one gets a different gameplay experience in loot.

Weather or not MF gear should or shouldn’t exist, I could care less about. What I’m opposed to is a system that makes the character ‘better’ in this aspect of the game, simply by virtue of having more hours played. And when you get right down to it, that’s what paragon did…. made you play more hours to get more xp to get better loot.

But you solved by yourself your “problem”:

> I don’t run MF gear….
> Weather or not MF gear should or shouldn’t exist, I could care less about.

So, you play because is fun. If you want to play an alt, you will do it. You don’t care your Magic Find Stat, and that is not going to change. So, why is a problem get benefited from the time spent on a character?

As somebody who knows GW2 and D3 very well, I can say that it takes way less time to grind Paragon level 100 than playing GW2 to the point of having earned a legendary weapon. Go figure.

In terms of motivating me to play, the slow tick of Paragon levels conveys more of a sense of progression than the rather messy road to a legendary. Your Paragon level (sort of) tells you straight away where you are, while it might take some time until you figure out how far down the road to a legendary you are.

But I am not sure MF would the right reward for the GW2 equivalent of paragon levels. Style is more important. Even in D3, the last thing you need is the MF boost, because if you take Paragon leveling very seriously, you need an excellent build and equipment which fits the build. You do not necessarily need the most expensive equipment there is.

I found, the fractal counter is GW2’s best equivalent of Paragon levels, both in how it works, how it can be used to motivate me and what it results in. Going forward, that might be THE mechanic to expand to other areas.

Just for the record, there are days where you need your mindless grind and days where you need to worship at the altar of difficulty. GW2 will need both to survive, without one group of fans feeling left behind on the loot.

Moved to suggestions… my plan was not suggesting this system, only talk about it. But ok :P

marianitten.1247:

I do not want to start a discussion if Diablo 3 is a good or bad game, or which is better.

I want to talk about the paragon system. When the game was released, It had exactly the same system that GW2 has today. Like that game is all about the gear, they made ??an interesting twist:

when they reach the maximum level, the player start raising the Paragon level. What it does is simply increase your Magic Find stat. And when they reach the maximum Paragon’s level, means you’re at the Max of magic find stat. So, do you no longer need to use that gear.

Thoughts?

This resolve several thing:

• Removing magic find gear sounds a bit impossible. But this will make it useful to a certain point and then you can dedicate yourself to get the best gear for your class.
• Enter a new motivation to continue completing activities that increase the player’s experience.
• Add more sense of progression to the player.

Excuse my english! Any grammar correction would be welcomed!

I was actually thinking the same thing. D3 did alot of things wrong however MF was NOT one of those things they got that part right. After they lost the 60% of their players by implementing a system close to the DR system that the devs use here and ignoring their players when they said they wouldn’t play anymore if they kept the DR system, they restored the loot to it’s original levels and most importantly allowed for MF to affect every kind of drop.

GW2 needs a system like this. If you’re going to do MF and RNG then do it right. Quit playing with the drop rates from the open world (we know something was done, it’s not rocket science it’s statistics and statistically it’s impossible to get nothing day in and day out [after 2 patches were applied that didn’t have a patch note] without playing with the chance something will drop) Allow ALL containers to be affected by MF, and make the chests from ALL zones drop items level appropriate to the level of the person doing the looting.

This would significantly improve people’s participation and would most likely restore the economy.

I have an alternative idea taken from GW1.

Add an achievement with however much progression and a usable title at rank 1. This grants +mf% and +gf% based on the title rank ala reputation titles in GW1. Since achievements are account wide, this too would be account wide. It would work only in PvE and WvW (though be quite useless in WvW).

Since MF is not capped in this game, I think this solution would be a good supplement for MF gear and for people who only want the benefits of the title and MF food.

Perhaps ANet could add more titles like this, where one title might grant +1% vitality per level based on your toughness or something. Another title could grant +1% condition damage and duration per level and so on. Consumables already grant these boons.

Hmmmm, I dunno, I kind of like the current system. Mostly because MF gear is actually attainable for poor people like me. I see too often where MF stuff ends up being exorbitantly priced and completely out of my reach.

Would I like to wear full Knights with MF on top? Of course!
But at the same time if you can have any set with or without MF that means 1. everyone will wear it, and 2. anything that doesn’t have it will instantly be worth much less.
Find a really nice exotic? Oh, no MF, sorry, worth less than half the +MF version.

If everyone wears it, then Anet will have to adjust drop rates to maintain the economic balance, and at that point you pretty much have to wear it, which further impacts the value of things without it.

I feel to maintain balance there needs to be a cost involved in having MF, and right now that cost is trading other stats for the MF, but since it’s not really a money cost per se, a lot more people can afford/are willing to get it. (maybe we could have a wider selection for the other 2 stats?).

If they really wanted to do something interesting, and allow MF without a stat loss, they could do something like the Infusion, where you infuse a piece of armor with luck (They’d need to stay well clear of actually using the word “Infuse” though to prevent confusion with actual Infusion). The reason I’d be mostly against this is it seems like it would inevitably cost 250 Mystic Clovers per piece.
Even if it wasn’t that ‘spensive it’d have to be somewhat expensive or, again, everyone would wear it, and honestly I’d rather the cost be something that doesn’t impact my bottom line.

It’s quite the conundrum.

ScribeTheMad.7614:

Hmmmm, I dunno, I kind of like the current system. Mostly because MF gear is actually attainable for poor people like me. I see too often where MF stuff ends up being exorbitantly priced and completely out of my reach.

I’m not talking about removing it from the beginning. But yes over time. That benefits you… beucase over time you won’t need MF gear :-)

I’m finding that on my alts I’m getting better drops. My lvl 80 w/ some MF+ (not full gear mind or anything too fancy) and MF+ from guild, I’m still picking up A LOT of junk. Some White, mostly blue, occasionally green. I’ve become completely discouraged with the system.

I like this suggestion a lot. I would happily grind to a max MF level on every single character. I would also promote an “if you don’t play for X time you lose % of MF” kind of like an on-going background boost.

The problem with mf is the problem they are running into.
They are trying to balance the economy based on everyone having some form of mf. Which negates what mf is all about to begin with. The stat is to be a bonus and not a requirement. Yet right now it is a requirement. The game should be balance (minus fractals) around characters wearing greens with zero MF. Thus if you go out of your way to get exotics you will see a marked improvement. Or if you choose to run with mf you will see a marked improvement in loot dropping.

If everything becomes cheaper due to many people playing with mf, such are things. Let the economy find it’s own balance and stop messign with the loot tables to “fix” the economy! While we are at it, something worthwhile should drop from everything higher than a normal mob. If I spend the time to kill a champ, I’m expecting yellow loot (guarenteed 5-10 lodestones or something geeze, this would bring the price down on these things as well). The dungeoun mobs should drop something, a craptonne of the lootable bags or trophy items that stack rather well…mind you I find these mobs have far too much hp and damage output for what they are…no one finds dungeoun trash fun when it is like this.

If you have Magic Find in ANY game where there is progression and finding better gear helps (especially if higher gear salvaging gets you MUCH needed ectoplasms…) yeah, it’s going to become a requirement. I don’t know why anyone would ever think for a second that it wouldn’t become a requirement. Everyone in these games wants their shiny gear, whether it has purpose or not. I mean look at the legendarys, they have the same stats at exotics but are so cool looking people make them anyway.

I think the Diablo 3 system for magic find would work out nicely, and since magic find takes up one of the 3 main stats you get on gear it does put you at a slight dps advantage. ANET could play with that so people could think about their gear choices more carefully.

Magic find is such a tricky and controversial issue. While I don’t really like mf gear itself, as it can lead to dungeon leeches etc… I’m not sure if GW2 should have an alternate leveling system. While an alternate mf leveling system made sense in D3, GW2 has its own method of leveling after reaching level cap (as in you continue to get skill points which you can spend on high level items).

they could just average the MF in a party. less work needed.

The fractal system (while clunky and incomplete) had a great idea to it: Give a dungeon additional value by voluntarily increasing the difficulty in exchange for increased drops.

Apply that in an unrestricted fashion and you have a recipe for skill-based rewards.

A party goes into Ascalon Catacombs for the first time, doing story mode and getting rewards appropriate to the original dungeon level.

A party goes in a 2nd-4th time, doing each explorable path and getting rewards based on their CHARACTER level.

Currently, everyone just farms the dungeon for more of those rewards/tokens. Excess player skill leads to some slightly faster runs and a little more gold.

Let the players choose their own difficulty level (A sliding % scale) for appropriate rewards. (A % boost to MF)

Possible Problems:
• If someone finds an exploit that allows easy kills, then they will jack the MF slider to the max and abuse the hell out of it. (With the oft-touted metrics, this should be easy enough to detect. If a player goes from 14% to 100% difficulty boost and rarely fails, something is wrong.)
• Elitist players will refuse to play with “noobs” because it’s a waste of their time to not play at their highest MF rating. (Elitists will always be elitists, no matter where you force them to play. Let them sit on lonely thrones.)
• Only the best players will be able to afford anything, because they have all the money from their MF runs! (This one is sort of a strawman, but I brought it up because it’s seen often enough. This is exactly what diminishing returns is for. Uncap that slider, but make the numbers scale unfavorably so casuals still get enough from their runs, and “farmers” get rewarded, but not to the point of destroying the economy.)

this sounds awesome but do you think anet wants you to get good loot? no, they want you to loot their gem store. That D3 idea is really smart tho and maybe, just maybe it will be implemented in gw2 in 10 years.

Nuka Cola.8520:

this sounds awesome but do you think anet wants you to get good loot? no, they want you to loot their gem store. That D3 idea is really smart tho and maybe, just maybe it will be implemented in gw2 in 10 years.

Another good idea is the “Nephalem Valor” .. wich is a stackable buff you get killing elites/champs….

redhare.9210:

though it might fix your issue with this game, have you not thought about blizzard owning the coding for it. Meaning its probably copyrighted or patent on it.

Knowing Actiblizzard, they’d probably sue for money, since money is all that matters to them at this point.

“Only the best players will be able to afford anything, because they have all the money from their MF runs! (This one is sort of a strawman, but I brought it up because it’s seen often enough. This is exactly what diminishing returns is for. Uncap that slider, but make the numbers scale unfavorably so casuals still get enough from their runs, and “farmers” get rewarded, but not to the point of destroying the economy.)”

Not sure if it’s a strawman argument if it actually happens. And that does happen, whether it’s through skill or buying gold when people have lots of money and throw it around like it has no value it starts to lose value. They have a lot of gold sinks in this game, many of which nickel and dime you in a way that has basically no impact on those with a lot of money.
What we need is more things like the legendary stuff, large and optional gold sinks. And the problem so far is that Anet seems to have a habit of using mats in these things in such a way that the prices of the mats the rest of us need for other things shoot up anyway. A specific example of this is the fractal backpiece needing 250 ecto each for 2 of it’s stages, thus introducing a huge demand that didn’t come with an equivalent supply (maybe they were hoping the supply found in Fractals would make up the difference, but one look at ecto prices makes it pretty obvious that hasn’t happened).

Making the cosmetic extra level really expensive would have been fine, but they way they did it jacked up the prices of ecto, which in turn jacked up the prices of everything made with it, which has made trying to craft some exotic armor almost prohibitively expensive.

Why don’t we use MF system from D3, and pets from WoW, and raids from RIFT,,
because this is GW2 and we don’t want stuff from other games! We want unique stuff! And stop copying other games ideas.. it’s lame..

MF working just fine, do calculation, if u don’t like math i’ll do it for you.
Let say for example to drop rare item it’s:
0.00025 without any magic find 0%.
0.00050 with 100% magic find, yes?

This magic find works just fine, just your math is bad, and do some calculations before you cry out loud.

Firelysm.4967:

Why don’t we use MF system from D3, and pets from WoW, and raids from RIFT,,
because this is GW2 and we don’t want stuff from other games! We want unique stuff! And stop copying other games ideas.. it’s lame..

MF working just fine, do calculation, if u don’t like math i’ll do it for you.
Let say for example to drop rare item it’s:
0.00025 without any magic find 0%.
0.00050 with 100% magic find, yes?

This magic find works just fine, just your math is bad, and do some calculations before you cry out loud.

Bad trolling is bad…

Please the last thing GW2 needs, is more mindless grind. I can not understand the positive reactions about the paragon system at all. It just adds an tedious to increase counter to artificially stretch that bit of existing content … with the only goal to replace magic find on the equipment which should not be a stat anyway.

As someone who’s heavily alting, I’m against any grind-with-only-one-character mechanic in any game.

marianitten.1247:

Firelysm.4967:

Why don’t we use MF system from D3, and pets from WoW, and raids from RIFT,,
because this is GW2 and we don’t want stuff from other games! We want unique stuff! And stop copying other games ideas.. it’s lame..

MF working just fine, do calculation, if u don’t like math i’ll do it for you.
Let say for example to drop rare item it’s:
0.00025 without any magic find 0%.
0.00050 with 100% magic find, yes?

This magic find works just fine, just your math is bad, and do some calculations before you cry out loud.

Bad trolling is bad…

Argument my trolling ? It’s just how it works… if u don’t know statistics and math, than i can’t help you understand anything rofl!

Firelysm.4967:

marianitten.1247:

Firelysm.4967:

Why don’t we use MF system from D3, and pets from WoW, and raids from RIFT,,
because this is GW2 and we don’t want stuff from other games! We want unique stuff! And stop copying other games ideas.. it’s lame..

MF working just fine, do calculation, if u don’t like math i’ll do it for you.
Let say for example to drop rare item it’s:
0.00025 without any magic find 0%.
0.00050 with 100% magic find, yes?

This magic find works just fine, just your math is bad, and do some calculations before you cry out loud.

Bad trolling is bad…

Argument my trolling ? It’s just how it works… if u don’t know statistics and math, than i can’t help you understand anything rofl!

Trolling because what are you saying has nothing to do with this. I am not saying that MF doesn’t work. I know very well the maths… i talking about a moderate way to remove it… because is the worst part of this game.

In Dungeon Siege II (maybe DS1 too) Magic Find applied to everyone in your group. I’ve likewise seen that suggestion here.

Out of the box perhaps it couldn’t work exactly like that since there are “treasure nodes” per player – which doesn’t make much sense especially in a group/party – though outside of a group it certainly reduces griefing.

In a group of 2:
Player A has +30% MF; Player B has +0% MF
—> Player A gets +30%; Player B gets +15%

In a group of 3:
Player A has +40% MF; Player B has +20% MF; Player C has +0%
—> Player A gets +46% MF; Player B gets +39% MF; Player C gets +20% MF

Calculation: Your Current MF + (All other memebers MF)/GroupSize.

marianitten.1247:

Firelysm.4967:

marianitten.1247:

Firelysm.4967:

Why don’t we use MF system from D3, and pets from WoW, and raids from RIFT,,
because this is GW2 and we don’t want stuff from other games! We want unique stuff! And stop copying other games ideas.. it’s lame..

MF working just fine, do calculation, if u don’t like math i’ll do it for you.
Let say for example to drop rare item it’s:
0.00025 without any magic find 0%.
0.00050 with 100% magic find, yes?

This magic find works just fine, just your math is bad, and do some calculations before you cry out loud.

Bad trolling is bad…

Argument my trolling ? It’s just how it works… if u don’t know statistics and math, than i can’t help you understand anything rofl!

Trolling because what are you saying has nothing to do with this. I am not saying that MF doesn’t work. I know very well the maths… i talking about a moderate way to remove it… because is the worst part of this game.

If some1 is trolling that’s you, if you want to be ‘’ drop seeker’’ than use magic find, if u don’t want to have this set, than you are not seeker of rare items. simple as that.

marianitten.1247:

Doggie.3184:

Lets not use something from one of the worst online games ever designed.

Please don’t do that. If you don’t like the game is ok. But here we are talking about That system, that i think is great.

I think that system is as awful as the game, and it helps make the game awful~

Firelysm.4967:

Why don’t we use MF system from D3, and pets from WoW, and raids from RIFT,,
because this is GW2 and we don’t want stuff from other games! We want unique stuff! And stop copying other games ideas.. it’s lame..

MF working just fine, do calculation, if u don’t like math i’ll do it for you.
Let say for example to drop rare item it’s:
0.00025 without any magic find 0%.
0.00050 with 100% magic find, yes?

This magic find works just fine, just your math is bad, and do some calculations before you cry out loud.

In the media industry, taking good elements from other medias, while improving where possible, is not only accepted, but part of the evolution. Even gw2 took many elements from other games, like warhammer online.
Copying is not “lame” when evolution is iterative.

Also, you have no elements to determine how magic find works. % means nothing, take a look at crit damage starting at 150 and adding to that, so that a +5% crit is actually lower then that.