Guild Wars 2

One of the main aspects behind the longevity of the original Guild Wars was the ability to keep changing builds. Soon after release, when we got rid of refund points, players were given a huge flexibility in how to play the game, and this helped immensily in keeping the game fresh – someone who got tired of playing as a Curses-based necromancer, for example, could easily change to a Minion Master and enjoy a very different playstyle.

Guild Wars 2 lacks this. The game already has far less skills than the original Guild Wars (which is not a bad thing – GW1 had way more skills than ArenaNet could balance), and we cannot change build so easily. Together with a community made predominantly by MMORPG players who are used to using a single rotation over and over while they farm play the game, this leads to stagnation – and stagnation leads to boredom, which leads to less players in the game.

Being able to completely change builds would help to deal with this stagnation. Someone who got tired of the same playstyle when playing as a Death Shroud based necromancer could, for example, switch to a Minion Master build using completely different trais and have a different experience. Those changes help to keep the game fresh for longer, thus keeping people playing the game for longer.

“But I like to keep my character the same through the entire game”, or “I think my character would lose its identity if I kept changing builds” – the option would be there to simply not reset one’s trait, of course. But the option to change traits around could help GW2 as much as the removal of refund points helped the original Guild Wars, which was a lot.

Changing traits is 2 silver at level 80. Are you really that pressed for cash?

You got the right idea, but I feel like the wrong perspective.

The cost of changing traits isn’t the problem. It’s incredibly minor. The lack of templates is the problem. Changing traits is a hassle, and it shouldn’t be.

The reason I get stuck in builds is that they work so well, not the cost of changing them (although redoing all the traits each time is annoying – I wish I could save builds). Every time I try to get away from 30 in Honor and 30 in Valor for my guardian, I get significantly weaker in my ability to do what the guardian does best. Sure, other builds are viable, but I have found them to be weaker in the most difficult situations I face (any build works for the average and easy situations).

Katai.6240:

Changing traits is 2 silver at level 80. Are you really that pressed for cash?

It’s a detriment for something ArenaNet should encourage players to do. Having players changing traits once in a while is good for the players and it’s good for ArenaNet. Now that they are trying to rebalance traits to give all professions multiple viable builds, it’s the perfect time to make the process of changing traits something more streamlined and something more attractive to players.

Agreed. You should still have to go to your Profession trainer NPC to get them changed (because I don’t think anyone wants “being able to break combat and change your build rapidly” to become a required skill at higher levels of play), but having to pay for it is dumb and irritating.

Having to pay 3.5 silver (not 2) isn’t the end of the world, but what if I wanted to try a bunch of different builds and see how they work? I can do that for free in the Heart of the Mists, but none of that is as good as testing in the real world with the actual armor and weapons you’ve bought. Or like, if I want to play my Guardian with her support build in WvW but then switch to DPS for a CoF run, it’s unnecessarily difficult to do that.

Why paying for changing traits is GOOD.

Gold sink. You want them to charge for trait swapping. You NEED them to charge for trait swapping. Be grateful they charge for trait swapping.

treborIRL.4521:

this is seriously so funny lol. really you can’t handle going to a skill trainer to [pay a small fee to re-trait?] lol maybe stop playing MMO’s if something this little bothers you. lolololol. might as well not pay to WP anywhere?? lol might as not pay to repair, can we get that for free too plz?

You’re comment is made hilarious by the fact that in GW1 travelling between outposts was free, armour didn’t ever need repairing and you could change your skills whenever you felt like it… It didn’t break GW1, it worked really well. I’m not saying GW2’s systems don’t work well, but there is room for improvement. THe issue people have is wanting to be able to change builds quickly in order to run a dungeon with their friends and then change it back afterwards, do you have any idea how annoying that can be when you have to pay to WP to a city, pay the trainer, pay to WP to the dungeon, pay for repairs in the dungeon, pay to WP back to the city, pay the trainer again… It adds up and it’s time consuming, especially for those of us who live in areas where fast internet isn’t accessible at all.. Don’t be rude just because you don’t have the same issues as someone else.

Gold sinks are good for the economy, I’m just glad it’s not as harsh as WoW’s respecing costs were (Especially before dual spec, playing a Druid meant you were perpetually poor).

If you can’t even make back the 3s50c with the new build then it is a very good sign that the new build is crap.

I’ve started my own in game not for profit called ‘Traits for Toons’. Please consider donating so every toon can reach their trait dreams. For just one copper a day (less than a black lion chest) you can sponsor a toon in need. Not only will you be changing the ‘life’ of a needy toon but you will receive an in game mail from the toon you sponsor including their very own screenshot.

This doesn’t even need a topic on a forum, it’s just bad. Anet and all true gamers know this but the Ringmasters are too busy cracking RNG Box whips.

MONEY MONEY MONEY

How long till the delusional start posting?

In other games, the rate increases until it becomes quite a heafy sum to retrait/respec. We have it kitten good.

darkace.8925:

Why paying for changing traits is GOOD.

Gold sink.

Irrelevant.

The waypoint fee? That’s a good time sink. We want players to walk around and explore the world, so they see dynamic events they may have missed when they first moved through an area.

The fee for changing traits? That’s a bad time sink. It’s something ArenaNet should encourage players to do, not charge them for.

Assuming all time sinks are good is rather naive. Some are bad, others are good. The fee for changing traits… Is bad.

darkace.8925:

The fee to trait swap helps combat inflation. Inflation is bad. Therefor the fee to trait swap is good.

Gold sinks are an important part of the economy, but each sink isn’t necessarily good. For example, ANet could institute a new change that charges you 10 copper every time you use a skill. A massive amount of money would be destroyed, but it would be a very bad change.

If they wanted to add some other gold sink to compensate, I would be fine with that. But charging gold for changing your skills only encourages stagnation.

C´mon OP, your arguments are sound and well expressed, however, 3.5 silver per change is not a big deal, in fact you can earn as much just coin just by fooling around ingame bashing stuff without giving a second thought, if it cost much more I would be in the same boat as you, but for that price…
And going to the skill trainer, they are in every mayor city, the one in LA is next to the crafting area, is getting there really an issue?

Anyway Im not sure there are that many viable builds for some classes to even play around with, I would worry more about some skill and trait combos being useless than a mere 3, 50 silver…

I agree with OP and others that agree on that charging for something that should be encouraged is bad. yes, it’s a gold sink, but it isn’t a very big one but most importantly its a constant fee. and if the fee is that needed then increase the repair fee by 5%, that would cover it.

and remove the god kitten trainer. that’s the reason why i don’t change my build because i have to go and see a god kitten NPC, do it like they did it in GW1, while being in a city you have full control over your build, and while being in a combat zone the build is locked. i mean having the “training area” and the proff trainer on completly different places is just counter intuitive.

Waraxx.4286:

and if the fee is that needed then increase the repair fee by 5%, that would cover it.

I sure hope not. I already had to sell all my gear thanks to going into WvW and being upscaled from level 10. I’ve been mining copper 18 hours a day without lunch just to try and get back on my feet. I’m one death away from dancing in LA for tips. If you have seen my toon then you know that isn’t going to get me very far either.

I often shy away from trying new builds because I have to go to a trainer and pay. Going to a trainer is too inconvenient, when in any major city you should be able to reset your traits, similar to sPvP. The paying is just unneccesary. The amount of gold it actually impacts is incredibly minor (the cost of a waypoint or two) compared to the time I spend with a specific build, but just having to pay to try something new is something I think is completely unnecessary. This game should be encouraging creativity and exploration into different builds; the way it is encourages you to read what someone else believes is the most optimal build, select the same exact build, and never switch again.

Why I understand the least about the trait system and how you respec is that most of the other features in the game don’t require you to go to an NPC.

Putting crafting materials into your bank and ordering from the BLTC come to mind.

I don’t know why they require you to go to an NPC to retrait.

I think most people can agree that it’s just a hassle to change traits in general.
-Having to go to the NPC
-Having to memorize previous builds because there aren’t templates
-Not being able to change builds on the go
-Not being able to quickly swap traits/gear at the press of a button or two

It’s just too clunky and annoying to use at the moment.

it is not a issue with silvers but like others mentioned it is a mechanics issue. having different templates ready to be able to switch conveniently would be awesome.

are you guys forgetting that changing build in this game means change armors and weapons and trinkets? it’s not the 3,5 silver…
i wish there were armor with no stats at all, like in pvp!
it would be also awesome for changing look without using stupid transmutation stones, i hate stats in armor…

the problem not lies in traits, but the stats distributed over 12 pieces of armor.

to maintain different sets of 12 pieces of armor for different builds is tedius.

i would rather make a new toon.

If I had a choice between getting rid of the fee or getting rid of the trip to a trainer, I’d probably take the latter. 3 silver means very little to me at this point in time. Finding a trainer is a pain in the proverbial donkey.

Of course, if they removed both that wouldn’t bother me at all.

Vayne.8563:

If I had a choice between getting rid of the fee or getting rid of the trip to a trainer, I’d probably take the latter. 3 silver means very little to me at this point in time. Finding a trainer is a pain in the proverbial donkey.

Of course, if they removed both that wouldn’t bother me at all.

what if, the trainer started selling “retraining traits tomes” O_O

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Vayne.8563:

If I had a choice between getting rid of the fee or getting rid of the trip to a trainer, I’d probably take the latter. 3 silver means very little to me at this point in time. Finding a trainer is a pain in the proverbial donkey.

Of course, if they removed both that wouldn’t bother me at all.

what if, the trainer started selling “retraining traits tomes” O_O

Gah, I don’t want to buy them just in case and keep them in my inventory either. I have enough crap in my inventory.

I’d like to be able to change builds wherever I am. As I said 3 silver one way or another isn’t going to break me, but having to go back to town is annoying.

At very least give us a couple of build slots that we can keep all the time, so we can switch between them.

Vayne.8563:

At very least give us a couple of build slots that we can keep all the time, so we can switch between them.

what if,

each character starts out with 3 traits build slots, and gems are required to unlock additional traits build slots?

in that case, what amount of gems would be reasonble?
bank slot upgrade = 600 gems
bag slot upgrade = 400 gems

traits build slot = 100 gems
reasonable?

what would the reasonable max amount of traits build slots be?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Vayne.8563:

At very least give us a couple of build slots that we can keep all the time, so we can switch between them.

what if,

each character starts out with 3 traits build slots, and gems are required to unlock additional traits build slots?

in that case, what amount of gems would be reasonble?
bank slot upgrade = 600 gems
bag slot upgrade = 400 gems

traits build slot = 100 gems
reasonable?

what would the reasonable max amount of traits build slots be?

I could just imagine the the pay to win comments people would make if this was instituted. I think slots should be available for in game gold, or even karma. It should be part of the system, not something you have to buy.

Vayne.8563:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Vayne.8563:

At very least give us a couple of build slots that we can keep all the time, so we can switch between them.

what if,

each character starts out with 3 traits build slots, and gems are required to unlock additional traits build slots?

in that case, what amount of gems would be reasonble?
bank slot upgrade = 600 gems
bag slot upgrade = 400 gems

traits build slot = 100 gems
reasonable?

what would the reasonable max amount of traits build slots be?

I could just imagine the the pay to win comments people would make if this was instituted. I think slots should be available for in game gold, or even karma. It should be part of the system, not something you have to buy.

well, it is considered a convenience upgrade.

plus, account wide bank slots, character based bag slots needs to be unlocked via gems too.

and gems can be purchased using in game gold.

anet should just do it.
i bet lots of people will buy gems to unlock more traits build slots!

hmmm time for a new survey perhaps …

Up until very late in development, ANet agreed with the OP. One of the developer blogs touted the fact that we would be able to change traits any where out of combat and gave an impassioned explanation of why that was the right thing for the game and for gamers.

I think it was shortly before closed beta that they reversed course and they never gave an explanation that made much sense as to why they pulled the 180.

The likely reason seems obvious though. Their obsession over dungeon difficulty/annoyance levels would not permit a scenario where players could adjust builds ahead of each encounter. This change and a lot of unnecessary nerfs since have been the result of this obsession. There was also the predictable whining by some in the community that builds needed more permanence to be meaningful, completely ignoring the fact that this just led to Flavor of the Moment coockie cutter build practices.

As others have pointed out, the cost isn’t as much an issue as the level of inconvenience. It’s obvious it isn’t a gold sink, because it’s too inconvenient to to be utilized anything but rarely.

We should have templates. That would be a good start. IMO, there should be no cost or need to visit an NPC, but templates plus trainers made much more common across the game world would probably be acceptable for many.

Erasculio.2914:

Katai.6240:

Changing traits is 2 silver at level 80. Are you really that pressed for cash?

It’s a detriment for something ArenaNet should encourage players to do. Having players changing traits once in a while is good for the players and it’s good for ArenaNet.

Detriment? 2 silver? At level 80? Do you want free teleports too? I bet you spend more on those between spec changes than 2 silver. Any “detriment” is in the time spent to go to the re-traiter and interact with them; that probably costs you more than 2 silver on its own. Really, 2 silver is irrelevant at that level. It’s irrelevant at 40.

I don’t mind the gold sink. However, I GREATLY mind the fact that I have to go to an NPC to retrait, and cannot save my templates as I could in GW1.

There is a problem, but this thread is focused on the wrong thing. We should not complain about the cost, but rather the accessibility.

Paying is fine, even going to an NPC for it is fine. Keeping a ton of armor/trinket sets on you and clicking through your traits and equips however is most definitely not fine. I’d gladly pay 10-15s on a build swap if the NPC saved my traits and held onto the respective armor/trinkets.

I dont mind the small fee or having to go to a trainer, its just that there aren’t enough trainers around, we could do with one either BY each dungeon or IN it. And in common outposts just to encourage build creativity. I haven’t changed mine in ages because I’m on a bit of a mission and its too much hassle WP’ing out to a city to find a trainer.

Whilst it wouldn’t bother me if they removed the trainer or the need to pay to change traits, I can see why it makes sense these are in the game. A very large part of any RPG or any MMO or combination of the two, is getting to identify with your character. You get to know them really well, you play as them, you ARE them. Now, just being able to switch builds/traits/looks around at the drop of a hat detracts from all of this. You will never build up a character that’s as important to you as the one about which you needed to make lasting (and therefore important) decisions. A trait wrongly assigned means something in a game where there is a penalty for changing your mind later.

I am not coming down on one side or the other in this particular argument. The option is always good to have, but I don’t think they penalise you very heavily for wanting to swap up. A minor inconvenience and a small price of in-game money aren’t really worth a lot of energy complaining about, imo.

I have never encountered anyone on the Guardian forums who didn’t spend the silver to retrait multiple times. Silver/Gold is ridiculously easy to obtain in this game so having this gold sink is needed. If anything, the price should be higher but for now, there’s no reason to complain about spending a few silver to retrait.

The two games are incomparable. We were able to change builds so much because there were a holy crapton of builds to change through. In this game- not so much. Changing a build in GW1 could amount to as significant of a change as switch your entire class, while in this game it amounts to a minor stat difference and a few tweaks to abilities here and there. On top of that, armor mattered more towards a build in this game thanks to the “+ skill” additions you could place on each item. This limited players from going absolutely nuts on their changes, and being able to do “everything”. Again, that doesn’t exist in GW2.

Personally, I’d love to be able to change my trait build anywhere for a fee. That’s all I need to be happy. But the actual paying? I’ll live with a 2s respec fee.

dnt forget i need to grind for a new gear also to be able to change build. let me goto wvw and patch stats on existing gear pls!