Guild Wars 2

WvW & PvE needs a lot of dodging.
PvP is fine, because fights are a lot smaller and not as intense as for example 15v15.
I think vigor nerf is unjustified, why?

Meta is all about bursting and it’s all about destroying targets as fast. With this kind of combat tempo, we got a lot less options to dodge and survive. It’s literally breaking the game combat, because rotations are faster then we get another dodge.

ALSO BUG:
– notice that dodging sometimes takes 60% of endurance on first dodge, and you cannot double dodge!

Because bad players hate dodging and blame the fact that good players know how to read animations and dodge when needed on the DPS zerker meta which some players hate for some reason.

So basically, you have some players who enjoy zerker meta. They play that way and mind their own business playing with like minded players. Then you have “play how you want” players who harass zerker players when they don’t want non-zerker in their party instead of just forming their own parties. (the irony of play how you want players telling zerkers how to play)

This leads to the selfish cries of people trying to get zerker nerfed and the first step to that was to nerf their survivability through dodging.

Pretty much what Dinks said.

I think dodging should be more like Wildstar. You move quickly out of the way, but there is no invulnerability. That actually rewards skill.

Dinks.2478:

Because bad players hate dodging and blame the fact that good players know how to read animations and dodge when needed on the DPS zerker meta which some players hate for some reason.

I love how every time there is a change, there is a self-proclaimed good player arguing that the change was “noob-friendly” or “casual-friendly”, sometimes with a ridiculous bad faith.

Less energy restauration means less dodges. It means that on the contrary, it rewards players who actually can dodge the meaningful attacks instead of randomly dodging because they can. And by “meaningful attacks”, I don’t mean those of your ridiculously easy dungeon bosses, but those of REAL players: this game is balanced against pvp, remember? Prior to the patch, two of the best builds, d/d ele and shout bow, were just randomly dodging to proc their traits. Some of those players never bothered to learn the animation of Mirror Blade: chances are, they would be able to avoid it by a lucky dodge, and it dealt no damage anyway. Now they are forced to.

Good players are rewarded by this change. Stop wasting your dodges.

A Volcano.2510:

I think dodging should be more like Wildstar. You move quickly out of the way, but there is no invulnerability. That actually rewards skill.

It’s a fun system, but that’s an entire game differently. How could it work with projectile skills for example, like Rapid Fire?

Pretty much what Sorel said.

I miss vigor in PvE.

Sorel.4870:

Dinks.2478:

Because bad players hate dodging and blame the fact that good players know how to read animations and dodge when needed on the DPS zerker meta which some players hate for some reason.

I love how every time there is a change, there is a self-proclaimed good player arguing that the change was “noob-friendly” or “casual-friendly”, sometimes with a ridiculous bad faith.

Less energy restauration means less dodges. It means that on the contrary, it rewards players who actually can dodge the meaningful attacks instead of randomly dodging because they can. And by “meaningful attacks”, I don’t mean those of your ridiculously easy dungeon bosses, but those of REAL players: this game is balanced against pvp, remember? Prior to the patch, two of the best builds, d/d ele and shout bow, were just randomly dodging to proc their traits. Some of those players never bothered to learn the animation of Mirror Blade: chances are, they would be able to avoid it by a lucky dodge, and it dealt no damage anyway. Now they are forced to.

Good players are rewarded by this change. Stop wasting your dodges.

Agreed. This change was much more likely aimed at PvP, where perma-vigor builds had much greater access to dodge than anyone else. Nerfing the endurance gain from vigor was a way to reduce that gap, possibly opening up more build options in PvP. Also, moving traits from 14 points to the equivalent of 18 meant that the opportunity cost for the vigor traits was reduced.

A Volcano.2510:

I think dodging should be more like Wildstar. You move quickly out of the way, but there is no invulnerability. That actually rewards skill.

I would agree with this, except there’s a problem. Current PvE encounters are based around dodges granting evade frames.

Using Subject Alpha as an example: Unless everyone stacks on top of each other, you wind up with a massive slew of overlapping AoE rings that will insta-down anyone unfortunate enough to get struck by them. Getting out of that mess with dodge rolls alone is impossible.

Many PvE encounters would need to be adjusted, either by reducing the size of enemy AoE skills, or by reducing their frequency -to allow players to mitigate them through other means (weapon evades, invulnerability etc).

A Volcano.2510:

I think dodging should be more like Wildstar. You move quickly out of the way, but there is no invulnerability. That actually rewards skill.

There’s no point in having a dodge mechanic if you just eat the damage regardless.

That’s one thing a lot of games need to learn from GW2. Monster Hunter and its competitors have always been really bad about it, in particular.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

A Volcano.2510:

I think dodging should be more like Wildstar. You move quickly out of the way, but there is no invulnerability. That actually rewards skill.

There’s no point in having a dodge mechanic if you just eat the damage regardless.

That’s one thing a lot of games need to learn from GW2. Monster Hunter and its competitors have always been really bad about it, in particular.

I had this issue in witcher 2. i dodge, and get hit anyway? what?
better off just eating the hit and dealing that extra bit of damage

Hyper Cutter.9376:

A Volcano.2510:

I think dodging should be more like Wildstar. You move quickly out of the way, but there is no invulnerability. That actually rewards skill.

There’s no point in having a dodge mechanic if you just eat the damage regardless.

That’s one thing a lot of games need to learn from GW2. Monster Hunter and its competitors have always been really bad about it, in particular.

Monster Hunter does give you invincibility frames when you dodge though, you just need better timing to pull it off.

In the words of great Monster Hunter vets: you need to git gud.

Quarktastic.1027:

Hyper Cutter.9376:

A Volcano.2510:

I think dodging should be more like Wildstar. You move quickly out of the way, but there is no invulnerability. That actually rewards skill.

There’s no point in having a dodge mechanic if you just eat the damage regardless.

That’s one thing a lot of games need to learn from GW2. Monster Hunter and its competitors have always been really bad about it, in particular.

Monster Hunter does give you invincibility frames when you dodge though, you just need better timing to pull it off.

In the words of great Monster Hunter vets: you need to git gud.

lol, so much this.

he needs to learn about zoning and know when to iframe dodge.

There seems to be some missconception here. Less dodges makes the dodges more important, not less.

It also makes the game more fun and interesting unless you enjoy being immortal for 50-70% of the fight. Giving a powerful defensive skill as dodge more meaning is beneficial for the game, otherwise we end up with even more “nerf zerker” threads in pve since if you can dodge almost infinately you defintaly don’t need defensive stats.

It also increases the value of utility skills that provide similar mechanics (immunity, reflects, damage mitigation) and encourages a playstyle less focussed on pure damage but more balance between offence and defence.

Dinks.2478:

Because bad players hate dodging and blame the fact that good players know how to read animations and dodge when needed…

Half the problem is even seeing the animations through all the particle effects. They need an option to turn them down. Stupid amounts. Sometimes I cannot even see bosses.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Dinks.2478:

Because bad players hate dodging and blame the fact that good players know how to read animations and dodge when needed…

Half the problem is even seeing the animations through all the particle effects. They need an option to turn them down. Stupid amounts. Sometimes I cannot even see bosses.

Indeed. There are still several enemies and bosses in the game that I have no idea what they look like after 3 years other than what I can see in their picture when I target them.

StinVec.3621:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Dinks.2478:

Because bad players hate dodging and blame the fact that good players know how to read animations and dodge when needed…

Half the problem is even seeing the animations through all the particle effects. They need an option to turn them down. Stupid amounts. Sometimes I cannot even see bosses.

Indeed. There are still several enemies and bosses in the game that I have no idea what they look like after 3 years other than what I can see in their picture when I target them.

The dwayna statue >_> So much guardian fire means you’re dodging almost purely by reflex when it does that massive solar flare-esque attack.

A Volcano.2510:

I think dodging should be more like Wildstar. You move quickly out of the way, but there is no invulnerability. That actually rewards skill.

Going by how Wildstar worked out, I think anyone should be very careful when examining whether it did anything right and it’d be worth copying over. All in all, the game was a total mess from start to finish. There are tiny tiny interesting bits in there, but they’re buried in tons of broken design, crappy ideas and bad implementations.

So hrm… dunno. Dodge needs to be reliable. Adding network latency, a non-invul-frame dodge is not reliable. At all.

StinVec.3621:

Indeed. There are still several enemies and bosses in the game that I have no idea what they look like after 3 years other than what I can see in their picture when I target them.

pic related.

I think dodge should not be linked only to class skills, added vitality (beyond the base of 1000) should give a small bonus to dodge regeneration so that players will be more willing to use it (I think the same for toughness, it should give a little condition reduction).

Narrrz.7532:

StinVec.3621:

Indeed. There are still several enemies and bosses in the game that I have no idea what they look like after 3 years other than what I can see in their picture when I target them.

pic related.

This is why I always play without postprocessing… you cannot even see them using skills that way.

Dodging is fine – I don’t really see why people want it to stop giving you invul frames since moving really fast wouldn’t work with the way this game works – people have already explained this above.

Narrrz.7532:

StinVec.3621:

Indeed. There are still several enemies and bosses in the game that I have no idea what they look like after 3 years other than what I can see in their picture when I target them.

pic related.

My personal favourite. The statue aoe at least has a very obvious tell so you can dodge it.

Narrrz.7532:

StinVec.3621:

Indeed. There are still several enemies and bosses in the game that I have no idea what they look like after 3 years other than what I can see in their picture when I target them.

pic related.

challenging group content!

well that don’t mention what PART of it will be challenging. the challenge might be “identify the boss model”

The issue with active dodging is it for the most part negates passive defenses, which has lead to the zerker meta. Why bother with vitality or toughness when you can roll and aegis anything that can do damage.

because your reflexes are not that good/these things have a long cooldown/you have higher than average latency/you generally prefer not to go down after a single slip up

I run roughly zerk on pretty much all my toons, but for example my necro has sacrificed 10% crit and 10% crit damage to get over 3k toughness, which basically makes me immortal in most pve situations and takes the stress and frustration out of ordinary play.

Heaven forbid some people will have to adapt to things being slightly different…

You know.. I noticed my Feline Grace was nerfed and that’s insanely irritating. Part of my thief build relied on being able to dodge and kite enemies so there are many times that I’m going to dodge an attack and finding that the energy simply isn’t there to use.

However, thieves have other tricks and I’ll just learn to use those instead of a dodge.

BrooksP.4318:

The issue with active dodging is it for the most part negates passive defenses, which has lead to the zerker meta. Why bother with vitality or toughness when you can roll and aegis anything that can do damage.

Thats only half the problem. Other, much deeper issue, is the fact that you need far too much defense attributes to even make a difference in the number of hits you take from scaled mobs. In some dungeons, the strength of the Control effects built into some of the bigger attacks also effectively leads to death if you fail to avoid them.

A major QoL problem is not being able to even read certain types of attacks due to animation and speed. As of how, the only 2 commonly recognized windups are mob rooting and AOE circles. Some mobs, and most bosses have highly projected tells…. but those 2 actions are the only indications we have to know when to read. In fact, there are several mini-boss types that use the wind up tell for 2 or more of their attacks; Giants being one of the more obvious ones.

In order to make these stats truly useful, we’d not only need to able to soak a respectable amount of small hits, but also know when something is simply too big to absorb. It also means our active defense skills need to cycle faster, and execute faster, so we can use them more deliberately in small fights. The game also doesn’t make smart enough use of “Unblockable” traits for monster attacks, that could go a long way to helping differentiate attacks that should be dodged vs attacks that can potentially be tanked through.

If you think about it, pressure attacks are devastating to the current state of classes, as they easily chew through our mitigating defenses to deliver that high % of total damage; often incorporating majorly crippling controls. The mobs that do this are among the ones most universally despised in the game… Karka, Thrashers, Teragrifs, Orrian Eyes, Flame Legion Incinerators, Spiders (in groups), and some types of Dredge.