Guild Wars 2

I used to be like a lot of you here on the forums. Not one year ago I was avidly clamoring for “more permanent content,” “more horizontal progression,” and all those buzzwords and phrases you all cling to so dearly; and truth be told, I plainly said on multiple occasions that a paid expansion was the only way to proceed. And of course, all that noise wouldn’t be complete without the all-too-common ultimatum: expansion OR the game is screwed forever.

Well, where are we now? Season 2 is drawing to a close. Two more maps have been added to the game, and much more that I don’t care to recount right now. After seeing what ANet has done with this season of the Living Story, and more importantly, getting some real world experience for a new perspective, I’m convinced a paid expansion is not the right way to go at all. Why the change of heart, you ask? To answer that question for myself, I had to make an inquiry into why I even thought that nonsense in the first place, and the answer was quite clear: I saw the rampant negativity here on the forums, and I fell into the trap of thinking that people here have any idea what they’re talking about.

Needless to say, these many months after I (and so many others before me) predicted the doom of the game, it’s still going strong, arguably better than ever. So I just have to ask one question to all you people who are still making these claims today:

What on Earth makes you think that you know how to manage an MMO better than the people who have been successfully doing it for more than 2 years?

I implore you to take a step back from your delusions of self-importance and realize how completely unqualified you are to be telling an entire development studio that everything they are doing is wrong, despite all indications that they are doing just fine.

A common criticism of ANet is that they don’t listen to the players here on the forums. That’s not untrue: of course they don’t listen to everyone. But the implication frequently carried with that accusation is that they are foolishly plowing ahead on the path to destruction, despite all of these insightful posters’ well-intentioned advice. Consider, for a moment, that perhaps the real reason they are not listening is that these people simply don’t know what they’re talking about.

I urge all of you here on the forums to think twice about what you read on here before jumping on any bandwagons, because that mentality is a virus that spreads ignorance and misplaced malcontentedness.

I fully expect to now be labelled as a “white knight” in a malicious and fallacy-ridden attempt to discredit my opinions, but time will tell who is right, and who is too stubborn to admit they’re wrong. I’ve already been through the whole process; hopefully all you naysayers will one day join me in realizing that ANet is not an incompetent gaggle of fools, and they might actually know what they’re doing.

Hindsight really is 20/20, is it not? But that’s life on the forums. At one point, during that expansion ‘discussion’, I could’ve said the sky was blue with photographic proof, scientific quotes from leading professionals, and some of our fellow posters would’ve denied it.

Said it was a conspiracy, and obviously I didn’t know what I was talking about because the scientists didn’t use the exact wording. “They didn’t say sky . . . they said atmosphere. You’re a cherry-picking idiot reading what you want to read.”

Still, if everyone agreed, and got along, the world (and these forums), it would be a pretty boring place. So I guess there’s a reason for everything.

Oh, and I hope you have your fire-resistant suit ready.

You think whatever you want in terms of what the game does or doesn’t need. But the overlying major consensus is that players want new content and that Living Story is not doing the job. The game is not in fact as strong as ever it’s lost a lot of people, megaservers just help to make it feel like there are more people playing.

Also please don’t use the argument that the player base’s lack of knowledge of the management of a game studio somehow strips us of our right to criticize. There’s no reason to attack Arena.net, nor be intentionally mean, but we absolutely can as a community voice what our concerns. Arena.net’s policy on keeping absolutely silent about what they are working on is only making things worse, and until they decide to change that nothing is going to be any different.

“Game is going to die” posts are, quite frankly, an attempt to generate agreement that ANet should add whatever the poster thinks is good for the game. It’s just an attention-getting tactic, no matter whether the poster thinks they are an internet pundit or not. the internet is full of such tactics, including:

• Use of the term “whining” to characterize requests or complaints the poster would rather not see happen.
• “I’m leaving because X did/didn’t happen,” to get the developer to “realize” that failure to accede to the posters wishes will have “serious” economic consequences.
• Characterizing developer changes as “dumb” or “bad,” which is an attempt to shame the developer into changing something the poster dislikes.

I’ll cop to using the last example in the anti-Trait-changes threads.

The common theme to these type of posts is, “I want X.” So much more honest, so much less drama.

You may need a flame shield, Andred, but not from me.

Fishesofgold.4985:

But the overlying major consensus is that players want new content and that Living Story is not doing the job.

I don’t think that phrase means what you think it means.

As to the rest of it. (shrugs) MMO’s lose players over time. WoW lost more people between Wrath and just before the latest addition than GW2 ever had. It gained some of them back for WoD, but it will lose players again.

What evidence do you have that the losses GW2 has suffered have to do with this “overlying major consensus” you speak of? None. You have a shared opinion with a few thousand posters on this forum and Reddit. That’s your “consensus.”

This is exactly what I was talking about in the earlier post. Exactly.

Well, I think it’s true that if the game were run exactly like one individual wanted, no matter how good they were, the game would be crap.

I think everyone has their own vision of the game and what to look for, but too many times people try to think that everyone thinks like them but it’s simply false. It’s annoying and people do it everywhere, but in the end, speaking on behalf of a large group of which you don’t know most of them personally is very dumb.

That doesn’t mean feedback is useless though. A good compromise (yes, that scary thing) between a large amount of individuals of which most people can find a place to fit in the game, and for enough people to find some aspect of the gameplay to be engaging is what makes a good game.

So when I speak, I try to speak up for my own best interests. But at the same time, concessions really need to be made because not only person is big enough of a customer to have a game solely to their needs. And try to use the best kinds of arguments, instead of handing out more buzzwords and vague populist arguments that really don’t have any basis in reality except in one’s own head.

Still though, when Anet gets bashed for not listening to players on forums; sure the forums don’t represent anyone, but when people post bugs and other QOL issues that don’t get addressed, or when high level players post their insights in the game and not much is done to addressed, then there are problems. By no means do I think they should take all forum suggestions seriously (that would ruin the game for sure) but when someone makes a good point, it’s a good idea to have a well thought response to it. I don’t think they ignore feedback at all, but there’s a few instances where it’s created a lot of grief.

I doubt people are just jumping on bandwagons for lulz. Alot of players here have experienced the same pits this game has.

These pits involve:

• Derailed Hype Trains.
• Complete player-developer disconnect.
• Near non-existent communication (Thank you Gaile for actually talking with the playerbase)
• Numerous bugs and issues that have existed since beta that have not been addressed.
• Bugs and issues added to the game that have yet been fixed.
• The common feeling of being manipulated or pushed into doing things a player must decide on their own.
• Etc.

And the worst part is that these come from the results of their actions. The people who complain see it from the side of the consumer and they currently feel like that are getting screwed as one. The ones who cling to this game and complain all of the time do so because they see it’s potential being unfulfilled.

Now you can argue that “GW2 is just experiencing the usual downs of an MMO”, “there will always be complaining”, “devs know best”, etc. However, that does not mean that dismissing the consumer side of the equation is okay to do.

They are part of Anet’s income and if a consumer feels like they are getting screwed then they will not pay.

Andred.1087:

I fully expect to now be labelled as a “white knight”

If the cape fits, wear it. Your shots at the community did give me a chuckle, thank you. But sadly your post reeked of bias and envy, which leads me to believe you’re simply here to troll. I’d counter some of your other far-fetched claims but I prefer to reside in the realm of fact-based arguments supported by reference.

Here’s some tasty tidbits you:

GW2
19.68 biln Won
-6.6 % QoQ; -20% YoY
Still strong performance in NA/EU
Performance in China is weaker than expected.
more aggressive marketing and updates are planned to expand the playerbase
From conference call: " The game is now two years old. And therefore in the not too far future we do think that we will have an opportunity to show our plans about expansion packs for this game"

Link to the report: http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx#none
Stream Conference call: http://cast.calltogether.co.kr/ncsoft/2014_3Q/index.html

Did you see what I did there Andred? I backed up my statement with facts . Sales are down, the game is stale and the people in the position to green light an expansion have either done so already or plan on doing it in the not too far future.

Just in case you’re still having trouble getting the point: an expansion is coming . The masses were right to complain and criticize and outline ideas of what should be developed. The others (you) were wrong to defend a game in its current state, knowing full well the Living Story isn’t up to the task of replacing a full-on expansion.

Andred.1087:

I implore you to take a step back from your delusions of self-importance and realize how completely unqualified you are to be telling an entire development studio that everything they are doing is wrong, despite all indications that they are doing just fine.

I fully expect to now be labelled as a “white knight” in a malicious and fallacy-ridden attempt to discredit my opinions, but time will tell who is right, and who is too stubborn to admit they’re wrong. I’ve already been through the whole process; hopefully all you naysayers will one day join me in realizing that ANet is not an incompetent gaggle of fools, and they might actually know what they’re doing.

You know, I’m of the opinion that the cry of “white knight” is a cop out in place of a well-reasoned response. But you sure seem to be flinging out insults either pre-emptively or in an attempt to attract the label, neither of which is helpful in making your point.

If you want people to hear you, maybe try not using the phrase “delusions of self-importance,” eh?

Applause @Vix.

Also, try and think for a moment that many of the “naysayers” here on the forum are adults, young at heart maybe but not that young really, and they have played MMOs since.. well, since MMOs first started. And they have seen many many of them take off with fireworks and then plunge desastruously. I could make a list, but it would be futile. These players are able to recognize the very signs that the game is on a downfall.

What GW2 promised 2 years ago can barely be found anymore in the game. I.e. Many people buy the game and try it due to the review Angry Joe has done on Youtube. If you haven’t watched that, try and watch it and think what is left of all the things that everybody was so enthusiastic about.

OP “What on Earth makes you think that you know how to manage an MMO better than the people who have been successfully doing it for more than 2 years?”

Successfully?

Vix.6730:

Andred.1087:

I fully expect to now be labelled as a “white knight”

If the cape fits, wear it. Your shots at the community did give me a chuckle, thank you. But sadly your post reeked of bias and envy, which leads me to believe you’re simply here to troll. I’d counter some of your other far-fetched claims but I prefer to reside in the realm of fact-based arguments supported by reference.

Here’s some tasty tidbits you:

GW2
19.68 biln Won
-6.6 % QoQ; -20% YoY
Still strong performance in NA/EU
Performance in China is weaker than expected.
more aggressive marketing and updates are planned to expand the playerbase
From conference call: " The game is now two years old. And therefore in the not too far future we do think that we will have an opportunity to show our plans about expansion packs for this game"

Link to the report: http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx#none
Stream Conference call: http://cast.calltogether.co.kr/ncsoft/2014_3Q/index.html

Did you see what I did there Andred? I backed up my statement with facts . Sales are down, the game is stale and the people in the position to green light an expansion have either done so already or plan on doing it in the not too far future.

Just in case you’re still having trouble getting the point: an expansion is coming . The masses were right to complain and criticize and outline ideas of what should be developed. The others (you) were wrong to defend a game in its current state, knowing full well the Living Story isn’t up to the task of replacing a full-on expansion.

Facts are not all equal. There are some serious missing factors in your facts, or other facts that you neglect to take into account. Profits being down isn’t the same as sales being down. The change from the relative position from the Won to the US dollar due alter how much the game is down, but that’s not even the biggest mistake you make.

It is absolutely 100% expected for game sales to be down over time for almost every game every released. Every company creates a business plan. That business plan includes, for games especially, heavy front loading in profit. You have to sell enough in the first months to generate enough income to pay for the years of the development.

Guild Wars 2 has met expectations for each and every quarter. The evidence is, if you don’t meet expectations, people get laid off as happened with the rest of NcSoft West, but notably not Anet.

Saying the game has less profit means absolutely nothing without knowing the expectations in the business plan.

For the record, I always thought an expansion (or expansion type content) is in the works anyway. I think it would be a bad mistake if it’s not. But quoting numbers without knowing the expectations is taking a fact and trying to make it fit your personal pet theory. It can’t really be done.

Now if NcSoft West laid off people and Wildstar Laid off people and Anet did not (but is instead hiring people), anyone that has a modicum of business experience might be tempted to think that the company is meeting expectations…which is all a company usually needs to do.

Fishesofgold.4985:

But the overlying major consensus is that players want new content and that Living Story is not doing the job.

Thanks for proving Andred’s point.

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 2 has met expectations for each and every quarter. The evidence is, if you don’t meet expectations, people get laid off as happened with the rest of NcSoft West, but notably not Anet.

Saying the game has less profit means absolutely nothing without knowing the expectations in the business plan.

For the record, I always thought an expansion (or expansion type content) is in the works anyway. I think it would be a bad mistake if it’s not. But quoting numbers without knowing the expectations is taking a fact and trying to make it fit your personal pet theory. It can’t really be done.

Now if NcSoft West laid off people and Wildstar Laid off people and Anet did not (but is instead hiring people), anyone that has a modicum of business experience might be tempted to think that the company is meeting expectations…which is all a company usually needs to do.

GW2 doesn’t have a sub model, so you have to base financial success on box sales and whatever piddlings the Gem Store brings in. Right now NCInteractive has more open job reqs than ArenaAnet, so I’m not sure the layoffs were due to just Wildstar’s utter failure.

Furthermore, if you look at the financial numbers Guild Wars 2 has steadily declined all year whereas Lineage, Lineage 2, Aion and Blade & Soul have increased. Why? One reason may be expansions. Lineage 2 launched one, as did Aion and Blade & Soul. It doesn’t take a Wall Street analyst to see GW2 needs an infusion. And what’s the best way to jumpstart box sales and get those numbers up?

I’m with you in the sense an expansion is coming. I hope that when the announcement comes, the expansion will have been in development for some time and this isn’t the grand proclamation an expansion is a great idea and should be pursued. Time will tell.