Guild Wars 2

With the large amount of grind required for PvE gear and the idiotic amount of Karma needed for Temple gear I wonder why is arenanet dangling a carrot on a stick in front of our faces for a non-subscription game?

Why can’t the dungeons just be very hard but like non-grindy games such as skyrim when you kill the last boss or any boss you pick up his OMG exotic helm of non grinding.

Then, let the player decide if they had fun in that dungeon they just did (even tho now they have alot of exotic gear “OH NO HE DIDN’T EARN IT” shush) and not force the player to have to do it for the gear they want. Possibly change the dungeon system to each explore mode is a tier of difficulty with the last tier INSANELY HARD but completing each tier you get the tier 1 CoF exotic set, tier 2 for an even harder path and tier 3 for the professional only path?

Someone tell me why does it matter that completing a hard dungeon you get the full set instantly? Then you choose whether you want to do it again because you enjoyed it? you choose if you want to do a harder path or the same path in that dungeon and not have to worry that if you fail you wont get all the tokens and you wasted your time and it depends on your skill to complete it to gain the visually pleasing gear.

Noone probably understands a word of that but basically why the carrot on a stick when you can just rely on it being fun and that the players want to play it and you don’t have to make them play it.

Does anyone understand my small brained mentality?

You can get a full set of exotic dungeon gear within a week, even less if you mix and match karma rewards and crafted stuff. How is that in any way shape or form a grind? The only way it could be less of a grind is if it was mailed to you when you hit 80.

Tradewind.6913:

You can get a full set of exotic dungeon gear within a week, even less if you mix and match karma rewards and crafted stuff. How is that in any way shape or form a grind? The only way it could be less of a grind is if it was mailed to you when you hit 80.

It shouldn’t take a week for you to get gear it should take the duration it takes you to complete a dungeon if you have the skill to complete it then the week should be spent enjoying the game because it’s fun rather than getting gear. Currently there is elitism in the game with people walking around in their shiney fire gear but it proves nothing other than the amount of time they have on their hands. If there was a tier system in dungeons where tier 1 is hard, tier 2 is extremely hard and tier 3 is professional it would allow skilled players that don’t play the game that much to actually get gear fast and it would replace the shoddy how much time you have elitism there is now with an “omg you managed to complete that dungeon” which only makes sense considering there is no way to avoid it. It would also reduce the grinding cries on the forums and would introduce an entirely new perspective on MMORPG gearing which would be innovative. Then us as players can have fun instead of getting spreadsheets out to see how much it would cost for this piece and how much time it would take etc and instead of having fun you spend your time getting gear. Lets admit it everyone that plays this game wants good gear so they sacrifice their time of fun with farming. Don’t say you don’t.

How is someone having more gear than you Elitism? Are they whispering you linking it or dancing around in your face? It’s not Elitism, it’s jealousy, on your part.

You’re expecting handouts immediately upon hitting 80 and you clearly do not understand the concept of a grind.

Tradewind.6913:

How is someone having more gear than you Elitism? Are they whispering you linking it or dancing around in your face? It’s not Elitism, it’s jealousy, on your part.

You’re expecting handouts immediately upon hitting 80 and you clearly do not understand the concept of a grind.

Where did I say I expected it to be handed out. I am saying it should only take you to complete a hard dungeon where without skill and knowledge of your profession you cannot prevail to gain the gear.

Why should a game that prides itself on being fun and not a grind require you to have to do something more than once to gain what you want. It should be hard and a challenge which is why there should be a couple of tiers to test the players that want it harder and for some game longevity but if arenanet really thought it was fun why would they require you do have so many tokens for an item? It makes no sense.

In any logical opinion it would be more fun to challenge yourself and gain the gear in an hour than to spend ages on the same thing and then you have more options to doing the other dungeons to challenge yourself and the multiple tiers because it’s fun and not because it’s what is required to gain the specific token for that specific piece of armor.

Why are you defending this boring, tried and overly tested method of a dungeon currency for dungeon gear? It really BLOWS MY MIND how every MMORPG thinks this is necessary when why can they not act like non online RPGs where it only takes your skill to acquire what you want.

I don’t see people grinding the hell out of non-online RPGs for a piece of gear. They usually just have to challenge themselves against something difficult?

Obviously arenanet please don’t make it easy for people to get the gear. But don’t make it cost alot of time.

Because it is not a grind. It doesn’t even come close to it. It’s even less time consuming since the last patch. I’m curious what your mmo experience is, just for reference here.

You are crying that it can take a week maybe a little more to get a full set of exotics. /facepalm.

Seriously, people like the OP are the reason MMO’s are dumbed down kiddy games compared to what they used to be.

It’s not really a grind with the new dungeon token rewards. You get 60 tokens for a path. Run all 3 paths, get 180 tokens. Enough for at least 1 piece. Do that once every day and you will have a full set in a week.
It’s fine as it is.

@Jordan: I agree with you in a way. I like the idea of a tiered dungeon system. Though some of the explorable paths can be considered tiers. Some can be considered more difficult than others.

I think ArenaNet did a good job of offering a kind of choice for people when running dungeons. I think there is more that can be done. Whether or not ArenaNet will do it, or the next big mmo game, I am not sure.

Nonetheless, it is a big step in a good direction.

I am not crying about it. The MMO wouldn’t be dumbed down at all. Infact making you spend a week getting gear compared to an hour is dumb. WoW dungeons would be easy as hell but take ages to get gear and you’re saying because it takes longer it isn’t dumb but if it was insanely hard but took an hour it’s dumbed down? Sorry but people like you are dumbed down.

I’m saying make it really kitten hard so that it tests your skill and you are rewarded with the gear if you are skilled enough to complete it and if you have fun you can do it again and again and again and not have to do it again and again and again because thats what is required to get the gear. Surely it makes sense that if you can complete it once you can complete it 100 more times so why make it so you have to complete it 100 more times? make it so it’s choice to do it 100 more times. Why a free to play MMORPG requires you to do something you know you can do so many times for gear? makes no sense. No subscription they are draining out of you.

Then make the next tiers of the dungeon reward the tier higher gear, have different story etc but make it really really kitten hard and the next one after that insanely kitten hard.

In no way is this dumbed down. It’s far from it. It rewards players with skill and not time, it allows players to do it for fun once and decide if they want to do it again and not think “oh no only 100 more runs to go” and gives better gear to people who can complete the even harder difficulty.

It’s games that require currency to buy gear instead of skill to buy gear that are truely the dumbed down kiddy games.

So your solution is to make getting gear prohibitively difficult for more people. This is somehow the solution to it being a “grind?”

Jordan.6157:

With the large amount of grind required for PvE gear and the idiotic amount of Karma needed for Temple gear I wonder why is arenanet dangling a carrot on a stick in front of our faces for a non-subscription game?

Why can’t the dungeons just be very hard but like non-grindy games such as skyrim when you kill the last boss or any boss you pick up his OMG exotic helm of non grinding.

Then, let the player decide if they had fun in that dungeon they just did (even tho now they have alot of exotic gear “OH NO HE DIDN’T EARN IT” shush) and not force the player to have to do it for the gear they want. Possibly change the dungeon system to each explore mode is a tier of difficulty with the last tier INSANELY HARD but completing each tier you get the tier 1 CoF exotic set, tier 2 for an even harder path and tier 3 for the professional only path?

Someone tell me why does it matter that completing a hard dungeon you get the full set instantly? Then you choose whether you want to do it again because you enjoyed it? you choose if you want to do a harder path or the same path in that dungeon and not have to worry that if you fail you wont get all the tokens and you wasted your time and it depends on your skill to complete it to gain the visually pleasing gear.

Noone probably understands a word of that but basically why the carrot on a stick when you can just rely on it being fun and that the players want to play it and you don’t have to make them play it.

Does anyone understand my small brained mentality?

if you call a 1-2weeks for endgame gear grind then seriously you havent’ played a TRUE grinding MMOG

what do you expect? gear coming on mail for free? seriously some people are…..trolls?

Tradewind.6913:

So your solution is to make getting gear prohibitively difficult for more people. This is somehow the solution to it being a “grind?”

Yes. Why should it be easy? They can easily add easy options of the players who would rather spend a week farming than an hour or more of playing skillfully and conquering hard content. But I think the best looking most cosmetically pleasing gear should come from skill and not time. You should only look like a badkitten if you are one. ( I said the most cosmetically pleasing. Not saying crafted or easy gear should look pants. Just saying the gear that is harder and requires more skill to get should just look better)

You were the one complaining about kiddy MMORPGs.

Weren’t you the one cawing about Elitism earlier?

killbill.7910:

Jordan.6157:

With the large amount of grind required for PvE gear and the idiotic amount of Karma needed for Temple gear I wonder why is arenanet dangling a carrot on a stick in front of our faces for a non-subscription game?

Why can’t the dungeons just be very hard but like non-grindy games such as skyrim when you kill the last boss or any boss you pick up his OMG exotic helm of non grinding.

Then, let the player decide if they had fun in that dungeon they just did (even tho now they have alot of exotic gear “OH NO HE DIDN’T EARN IT” shush) and not force the player to have to do it for the gear they want. Possibly change the dungeon system to each explore mode is a tier of difficulty with the last tier INSANELY HARD but completing each tier you get the tier 1 CoF exotic set, tier 2 for an even harder path and tier 3 for the professional only path?

Someone tell me why does it matter that completing a hard dungeon you get the full set instantly? Then you choose whether you want to do it again because you enjoyed it? you choose if you want to do a harder path or the same path in that dungeon and not have to worry that if you fail you wont get all the tokens and you wasted your time and it depends on your skill to complete it to gain the visually pleasing gear.

Noone probably understands a word of that but basically why the carrot on a stick when you can just rely on it being fun and that the players want to play it and you don’t have to make them play it.

Does anyone understand my small brained mentality?

if you call a 1-2weeks for endgame gear grind then seriously you havent’ played a TRUE grinding MMOG

what do you expect? gear coming on mail for free? seriously some people are…..trolls?

No way did I say it should be free and come in the mail. Infact it should be harder to obtain but take less time. I have played a true grinding MMO and the only reason most of them are like that is because it’s easy for MMOs to copy each other. Also because they want to make you play as long as possible for more subscription money.

Guild wars 2 has no subscription and prides itself on being fun so why should it take long at all? It should take a high amount of skill to gain the best looking gear (not best stats) from hard dungeons but it shouldn’t require you to do it more than once for gear considering that you can actually beat it once anyway. You can do it more than once for fun tho.

Stop being so basic.

Tradewind.6913:

Weren’t you the one cawing about Elitism earlier?

I said it exists for the wrong reason. If it does exist it should exist for the right reason.

I’m curious what your experience thus far with dungeons is.

Tradewind.6913:

I’m curious what your experience thus far with dungeons is.

I don’t want to change the topic but I think they are quite braindead. Not much teamwork required to prevail. I brain afk while doing the trash and just roll when I see a circle on the floor, or a projectile moving towards me. Easy click immobilize if a melee is too close.
It needs to change for more teamwork, test your reactions and not your ability to strafe etc.

Because if you only did it once, it would be extremely hard to get others to run dungeons with you and really, it’s not an over irritating grind.

Jordan.6157:

Tradewind.6913:

I’m curious what your experience thus far with dungeons is.

I don’t want to change the topic but I think they are quite braindead. Not much teamwork required to prevail. I brain afk while doing the trash and just roll when I see a circle on the floor, or a projectile moving towards me. Easy click immobilize if a melee is too close.
It needs to change for more teamwork, test your reactions and not your ability to strafe etc.

I think it is relevant to the discussion. If you’re saying that they need to be harder, it’s important to know what you have done so far for comparison. As there is varying degrees of difficulty already present in the explorable modes. Your “Tiers” as it stands, already exist in that Flame Legion gear is easier to obtain than Orrian gear.

pixelthekid.8541:

Because if you only did it once, it would be extremely hard to get others to run dungeons with you and really, it’s not an over irritating grind.

I completely disagree. There will always being people who may not have been skilled enough to complete it and want to try it again or people who got the gear from doing another tier 1 of some other dungeon and are seeing what all the dungeons are like.

Not forgetting it’s not supposed to be easy to do first time. It will take some attempts and require skill. Also eliminating having to do it over and over again would make people want to do it again. I know if I had to do a dungeon over and over and over again for gear I would never want to do it again once I have the gear. But If I had to do it once I wouldn’t have that mentality. Infact I would want to do it again to see if I have gotten better at the game. (considering it is supposed to be hard).

I never cared about the WoW Heroic dungeon grind, but it was still a grind. I have to say, GW2 feels more grindy in just about every aspect of the game.

I’m enjoying the game, but even hearts and DEs at early levels just feel aimless and kinda grindy. You’re essentially just wandering around like a nomad killing things until you can move into the next zone with almost no story moving you along.

Tradewind.6913:

Jordan.6157:

Tradewind.6913:

I’m curious what your experience thus far with dungeons is.

I don’t want to change the topic but I think they are quite braindead. Not much teamwork required to prevail. I brain afk while doing the trash and just roll when I see a circle on the floor, or a projectile moving towards me. Easy click immobilize if a melee is too close.
It needs to change for more teamwork, test your reactions and not your ability to strafe etc.

I think it is relevant to the discussion. If you’re saying that they need to be harder, it’s important to know what you have done so far for comparison. As there is varying degrees of difficulty already present in the explorable modes. Your “Tiers” as it stands, already exist in that Flame Legion gear is easier to obtain than Orrian gear.

But if it does exist like that it is a very restricted tier system. If there were 3 tiers in every dungeon you have a massive option but if the tiers just went up like CoF —> CoE —> Orrian etc there is very little choice if you want something harder than the previous tier.

Stop….engage brain…start thinking…..post.

or

Stop….

Whichever you prefer OP….its up to you? Btw so is the grind….

mechasauce.1309:

Stop….engage brain…start thinking…..post.

or

Stop….

Whichever you prefer OP….its up to you? Btw so is the grind….

Grinding is a choice in any game. You can either choose to have gear or choose not to. If you don’t you will be left behind. It’s quite simple. People defending the grind saying it’s a choice are ridiculous. If the same situation was in World of Warcraft everyone would be laughing at the game “hahaha atleast I don’t have to do this grind” but instead we got people in this game that instead of trying to offer suggestions to improve it for the massive number of players complaining about it you just say to avoid it.

Pathetic.

But nobody is left behind here, you can get Exotics in a number of different ways. The only thing you’re missing is the “look”, the “style.” There is no stats difference between a Power/Precision/Crit Explorable exotic and a Berserker’s Exotic from the Trading Post.

Tradewind.6913:

But nobody is left behind here, you can get Exotics in a number of different ways. The only thing you’re missing is the “look”, the “style.” There is no stats difference between a Power/Precision/Crit Explorable exotic and a Berserker’s Exotic from the Trading Post.

but each way is a grind. Karma, materials or dungeon tokens.

Jordan.6157:

…
Why can’t the dungeons just be very hard but like non-grindy games such as skyrim when you kill the last boss or any boss you pick up his OMG exotic helm of non grinding.

And you call me pathetic? lol

mechasauce.1309:

Jordan.6157:

…
Why can’t the dungeons just be very hard but like non-grindy games such as skyrim when you kill the last boss or any boss you pick up his OMG exotic helm of non grinding.

And you call me pathetic? lol

This here is the only issue with no subscription MMORPGs. You get the people from the kitten communities arriving.

The carrot is microscopic.
The stick is a lightyear long.

Jordan.6157:

With the large amount of grind required for PvE gear and the idiotic amount of Karma needed for Temple gear I wonder why is arenanet dangling a carrot on a stick in front of our faces for a non-subscription game?

Why is there so much grind necessary to get to level 80? It’s all grind, if your goal is to get to level 80. Why is there so much grind to get crafting to 400? It’s all grind, if your goal is to get crafting to 400. Why is there so much grind necessary to get map completion? It’s all grind, if you are focused on map completion.

Everything is a “grind” if your goal is to just get through content you’d rather not do to get the commemorative vanity plate at the end. None of it is a grind if they are just things you enjoy doing, and for doing a lot of it at your own pace, ANET has a nice little treat for you.

Choosing to look at activities in the game in terms of what reward they result in, and then doing things you’d rather not do to gain those rewards, can turn everything into a grind. This is why those things you get at the end are nothing more than vanity plates; there’s no reason to pursue them if you don’t like doing what you have to do to get them.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Jordan.6157:

With the large amount of grind required for PvE gear and the idiotic amount of Karma needed for Temple gear I wonder why is arenanet dangling a carrot on a stick in front of our faces for a non-subscription game?

Why is there so much grind necessary to get to level 80? It’s all grind, if your goal is to get to level 80. Why is there so much grind to get crafting to 400? It’s all grind, if your goal is to get crafting to 400. Why is there so much grind necessary to get map completion? It’s all grind, if you are focused on map completion.

Everything is a “grind” if your goal is to just get through content you’d rather not do to get the commemorative vanity plate at the end. None of it is a grind if they are just things you enjoy doing, and for doing a lot of it at your own pace, ANET has a nice little treat for you.

Choosing to look at activities in the game in terms of what reward they result in, and then doing things you’d rather not do to gain those rewards, can turn everything into a grind. This is why those things you get at the end are nothing more than vanity plates; there’s no reason to pursue them if you don’t like doing what you have to do to get them.

Anet said they would change from other MMORPG and if this is how you look at it they haven’t changed a bit. Their manifesto lied.

Jordan.6157:

Tradewind.6913:

But nobody is left behind here, you can get Exotics in a number of different ways. The only thing you’re missing is the “look”, the “style.” There is no stats difference between a Power/Precision/Crit Explorable exotic and a Berserker’s Exotic from the Trading Post.

but each way is a grind. Karma, materials or dungeon tokens.

I guess your definition of grind involves “anything that takes time.”

So what game were they referring to when they said they wanted to take the grind out of an MMO?

Does WoW really have that much grind in comparison? I was never hardcore but I raided a little. Running heroics to get into raids and running that raid to get into the next one wasn’t really that bad.

I think what they meant by NO GRIND was “if you don’t grind, you won’t have lesser gear”. Still, when all is said and done, and the last PVE thing left to do is get the leet skin so you can strut around Lion’s Arch, you’re left with nothing but grind.

In an MMO, everyone strives to be the best or catch up to the best, even if you’re casual. When someone has a cosmetic skin that takes 100 hours to complete, it makes you wish you had it. At that point, a decision is made: Start grinding or stop playing the game.

Wouldn’t a game that claims no grinding leave that part out of it? When you say NO GRINDING, don’t put it in the game AT ALL. At that point, you finish PVE and the entire game unless you want to explore or do PVP.

I definitely had the impression from numerous articles and the manifesto that when you ran a dungeon, you got a full set from that dungeon in one run. THEN, the explorable modes were supposed to be more challenging with even COOLER armor that you would get in ONE run. And your drops would be for your class, not others.

Doesn’t the whole random loot idea seem to go against the spirit of the manifesto as well? (with the exception of world leveling loot)

When I think of “grind” I think of slogging through Molten Core in 2005 for months to get one thing I needed and being presented week after week with Nightslayer Shoulders and kittening Thunderstrikes. Then repeating it in BWL, AQ ad nauseum.

It’s a good point, but a little self defeating. Obviously Anet do care that you keep playing. They want you to buy gems, when they launch an expansion they want you to think “awesome, more stuff for the game I’m playing” not “oh yeah I remember that, game, it was fun wasn’t it?”

The idea that it wouldn’t be a grind, well, that was just marketing. It’s less of a grind because they only want you to keep playing, and don’t particularly care how much but it is unavoidably a grind because of Anets external motivations.

Tradewind.6913:

Jordan.6157:

Tradewind.6913:

But nobody is left behind here, you can get Exotics in a number of different ways. The only thing you’re missing is the “look”, the “style.” There is no stats difference between a Power/Precision/Crit Explorable exotic and a Berserker’s Exotic from the Trading Post.

but each way is a grind. Karma, materials or dungeon tokens.

I guess your definition of grind involves “anything that takes time.”

No, something that you have proven you can do but have to do it again and again is a grind in my opinion.

Tradewind.6913:

When I think of “grind” I think of slogging through Molten Core in 2005 for months to get one thing I needed and being presented week after week with Nightslayer Shoulders and kittening Thunderstrikes. Then repeating it in BWL, AQ ad nauseum.

You speak the truth, but that’s old school MMO grind. No (western) MMO has been like that for a long time, so when Anet said they were removing grind, I don’t think they were saying “The grind will not be as bad as say….2005 Molten Core.”

I think there’s been a steady downshift in how much grinding is needed, but it’s still there. It’s ingrained in a game like WoW because of the RNG nature of loot…or seemingly RNG (getting the same kitten 5 weeks in a row and DE’ing it, starts to get questionable). So if you want something, you have to go back and do it over and over and over until it drops. But even by that comparison the supposed “grind” in GW2 is far less than even current WoW, and much much less than 2005.

Realistically though, if you want to talk grindy MMO’s, play EVE. In that you can’t even avoid it really. It’s almost a fundamental principle in that game.

Read through all the posts, and I only got one question to ask the OP. “why?” Why do you feel like you must have the dungeon gear? The point of their existence is not “i need them to be on par”. They are “comestic gear”. And so, yes, there can be different methods of designing the dungeon, but theirs is just as good as any. It’s not hard at all to get exotic gear right now, but even without full exotic gear, there isn’t really much of a difference in PvE.

You seem to be missing the point of the PvE component of this game. The PvE is supposed be cooperative, not competitive. It is undeniable, that at this point at least, there is not much elite content in PvE. This is something Anet has addressed and acknowledged they’re working on.

But if you want to prove your skills, do it in pvp. PvE, even elite content, are always down to learning the tricks, whereas pvp is always changing depending on your opponent. If you’re truly good, you should be able to adapt on the fly, against players that are also adapting as they play. That’s where the competition is, and when paid tournament pvp is finally opened, we’ll actually get some truly competitive action.

If your point is not to prove your skills…well,kitten it only takes a couple days of playing to get exotic gear. Dungeon gear is actually one of the slower ways to get it…

I don’t know if this has been said, but your definition of a “carrot on a stick” is wrong. Grinding isn’t “carrot on a stick.” A carrot on a stick is quite literally the concept of dangling a reward in front of someone that they will never truthfully get. In MMOs, this is seen is the constant gear progressions that will never stop. This isn’t the case in GW2. The “best gear” isn’t changing. It’s there. You can get it and be done.

PvE can be massively competitive in a fun way. I play PvP but PvE competition is different. It’s more of a race in most games on who can complete the content first, who has completed the most content and I find that part of PvE very fun. Without it PvE in my opinion seems useless once you done the story for everything. Meh.