Guild Wars 2

Deepcuts.9740:

Sooo many players just wishing GW2 to be “Hey, a swung a sword. I swung a word again”
Oh, I didn’t realize it was just the AIR.

Some people want to be good at what do they do, including gaming, some people just want to have fun with their friends and some people just want to be carried through the content by other people.
God forbid someone notices they are slacking. The END OF DAYS! Kill all ELITISTS!

I do not see any other reason for not wanting stats in game, but being afraid to get caught slacking.
By stats I mean DPS, tanking,healing uptime.

People don’t want the meter because of all the things the DPS meter CAN’T read. Like buffs, fields, condition removals, etc.

DPS meters create bad players in games like this. In this situation, you aren’t arguing just with casuals who don’t want to see the game ruined by elitism- you are arguing with those of us “elitists” who don’t want the game ruined by stupid people who try to bully good players into playing stupidly, like them, so their little number will go up.

Want a meter? Get a stop watch and time your run through the dungeon. That is the best possible measurement of EVERYTHING in your group, and gives you something to work towards bettering.

Tolmos.8395:

Deepcuts.9740:

Sooo many players just wishing GW2 to be “Hey, a swung a sword. I swung a word again”
Oh, I didn’t realize it was just the AIR.

Some people want to be good at what do they do, including gaming, some people just want to have fun with their friends and some people just want to be carried through the content by other people.
God forbid someone notices they are slacking. The END OF DAYS! Kill all ELITISTS!

I do not see any other reason for not wanting stats in game, but being afraid to get caught slacking.
By stats I mean DPS, tanking,healing uptime.

People don’t want the meter because of all the things the DPS meter CAN’T read. Like buffs, fields, condition removals, etc.

DPS meters create bad players in games like this. In this situation, you aren’t arguing just with casuals who don’t want to see the game ruined by elitism- you are arguing with those of us “elitists” who don’t want the game ruined by stupid people who try to bully good players into playing stupidly, like them, so their little number will go up.

Want a meter? Get a stop watch and time your run through the dungeon. That is the best possible measurement of EVERYTHING in your group, and gives you something to work towards bettering.

The OP has stated several times that he doesn’t just mean for the meter to record DPS. He thinks it would be great if it could count how many rezzes, condition removals, combos, etc. that any player does.

AlietteFaye.7316:

Tolmos.8395:

Deepcuts.9740:

Sooo many players just wishing GW2 to be “Hey, a swung a sword. I swung a word again”
Oh, I didn’t realize it was just the AIR.

Some people want to be good at what do they do, including gaming, some people just want to have fun with their friends and some people just want to be carried through the content by other people.
God forbid someone notices they are slacking. The END OF DAYS! Kill all ELITISTS!

I do not see any other reason for not wanting stats in game, but being afraid to get caught slacking.
By stats I mean DPS, tanking,healing uptime.

People don’t want the meter because of all the things the DPS meter CAN’T read. Like buffs, fields, condition removals, etc.

DPS meters create bad players in games like this. In this situation, you aren’t arguing just with casuals who don’t want to see the game ruined by elitism- you are arguing with those of us “elitists” who don’t want the game ruined by stupid people who try to bully good players into playing stupidly, like them, so their little number will go up.

Want a meter? Get a stop watch and time your run through the dungeon. That is the best possible measurement of EVERYTHING in your group, and gives you something to work towards bettering.

The OP has stated several times that he doesn’t just mean for the meter to record DPS. He thinks it would be great if it could count how many rezzes, condition removals, combos, etc. that any player does.

I should have mentioned that I see that being a tall enough order that, considering Anet’s current success rate at implementing new features in a timely manner, wouldn’t be seen for a long time.

So, that said, if they had a meter for literally every aspect of combat, I would agree with a DPS meter along with them.

Tolmos.8395:

I should have mentioned that I see that being a tall enough order that, considering Anet’s current success rate at implementing new features in a timely manner, wouldn’t be seen for a long time.

So, that said, if they had a meter for literally every aspect of combat, I would agree with a DPS meter along with them.

I agree that it would take a long time to develop this way. However, they already have a system in place in PvP that tracks how much damage you take and from what sources, so there is a starting point at least. I think it is something they can expand on and that it would honestly help the playerbase overall.

AlietteFaye.7316:

Tolmos.8395:

I should have mentioned that I see that being a tall enough order that, considering Anet’s current success rate at implementing new features in a timely manner, wouldn’t be seen for a long time.

So, that said, if they had a meter for literally every aspect of combat, I would agree with a DPS meter along with them.

I agree that it would take a long time to develop this way. However, they already have a system in place in PvP that tracks how much damage you take and from what sources, so there is a starting point at least. I think it is something they can expand on and that it would honestly help the playerbase overall.

Yea, I can agree with that. If you can measure the entirety of what someone is doing in combat, it would help them in the long run.

I suppose I was a little jaded because in previous games it ONLY consisted of a DPS meter. As a tank, nothing irked me more than some little crapeater stopping the group mid run to kitten about another player producing 5-10% less DPS than him. I usually just boot the crapeater and find a replacement for them, since the amount of time that lower DPS player would have cost us would have been only a fraction of the time this guy was costing us.

Depending on the circumstances, I don’t play well with other “elitists” >_> lol

There is absolutely no way this wouldn’t lead to severe elitism, even more so than you already see. I’m not opposed to having access to a personal combat info page but the second you make it possible to share it, you will have groups that REQUIRE it to be shared.

The vast majority of content in this game can be completed with any old group regardless of profession or aptitude. We don’t need to encourage people to obsess over shaving 5 seconds off their dungeon run by kicking Bob because his DPS is 5% lower.

DPS don’t mean squat! It’s how well you play your char and work with the group that counts.

’Nuff said.

If the problem is that you can’t get your DPS without a DPS meter, then I would suggest you get better math skills. The formulas this game uses for damage aren’t complicated, even with the RNG aspect involved. The hardest part would be determining the overall time it takes to execute attacks (recharge + activation time + animation time), and even then you can round part of that off due to how ubiquitous animation time is.

Damage is as follows:

Damage = Power x Weapon Strength x Skill Coefficient / Armor

Power = Your Power stat
Weapon Strength = The range of power that is listed on each weapon. RNG applies here.
Skill Coefficient = A certain multiplier that is attached to each skill that does damage. This is not displayed.
Armor = Opponents armor value.

The tooltip each skill uses is based on the average weapon strength, and assumes an opponent with 2600 armor. Because of this, you can calculate how much damage you’ll do against any amount of armor by multiplying the tool tip by 2600/(Desired Armor Value).

Crits works as such:

Damage x ((1.5 +Crit damage) x (Precision – 832)/21 + 1 – (Prec – 832)/21 )

Or basically

Damage x (How much crits hurt x How often you crit + how often you don’t crit)

This whole " how often you crit" thing comes into play quite a bit often. For procs without a cooldown, you can find the DPS it contributes by basically doing

(Prec – 832)/21 x Probability of Proc occurring x Damage proc will inflict.

For procs with a cooldown it is more complicated. I prefer to use 90% likelyhood as a baseline for figuring out how long it’ll take to proc after the cooldown is reached. By assuming so many “hits” until something procs, you can take the time of those hits and add it to the recharge to get the total effective recharge. Specifically it is:

X hits (round up) = log(0.1) / log (1 – proc chance x (prec – 832)/21)

Or basically

X hits = -1 / log( 1 – proc chance x crit chance)

And if it is a proc chance that isn’t based on crits, then you can just forget the crit rate portion of that calculation. So, for example, if we wanted to find out how many hits it would take for a superior sigil of ice to proc with a 50% crit chance, we’ll get

X = -1 / log (1 – 0.3 × 0.5)
X = 14.16
X = 15 hits

And then after taking your average hit rate an multiply that by X to get the additional recharge time. So if you landed 1 attack per second, that would be 15 seconds, or a total of 25 seconds to cause a chill (90% certainty). I left the log (0.1) in there because some people will use 50% as a benchmark instead of 90% like I do. Ultimately it is arbitrary what you choose, and likewise any damage meter will choose an arbitrary value for this as well.

BTW, the original formula before I solved it looked like this:

1 – (1 – crit chance x proc chance)^# = 0.9

If you wanted to go through every permutation in which every skill can work, we’ll be here all day. But, here are the basics as to how to calculate your DPS. If it is so crucial to know your damage per time, then figure it out on your own instead of demanding some extra feature that does all the work for you and is used to discriminate against players. DPS isn’t some mystical proportion divined by a prophetic program. It is just run of the mill number crunching and mild experimentation.

Does your math also include dodges, healing skills, screw-ups, etc?

The real question is, can math include those things, period. My math isn’t some kind of special brand. Math is math.

As for dodges and screw ups, unless someone has managed to make some differential equation that counts for both personal skill and whatever skill level your opponent has, then no there isn’t anything that can calculate that for someone. There also isn’t any reason to know what the overall DPS during the fight was, since all that will be is a fraction of the maximum you can pull off, so building for a high steady rate is still the best thing to do.

If you wanted to, you could go deep into experimentation by taking the summation of hundreds of fights to find the median dodge frequency, but you can calculate the maximum dodge frequency under various conditions. Just remember that the baseline for endurance regeneration is 1 dodge every 10 seconds or 20 seconds for a full bar, and then you can feel free to add on vigor or other endurance regenerating abilities. Dodges also last for 3/4ths of a second.

Healing sills can definitely be accounted for. In fact, there’s more than one way to account them. You can us healing skills as either a factor of survivability, or as a factor for sustaining damage. You can combine this with toughness and vitality to find out durability, and then you can either use DPS to find how much more likely you are to survive a fight. Or, if you are more offensively focused, you can use this survivability to find out how long you can sustain DPS in different circumstances.

So much is possible if you want to put the grunt work to get the numbers for it.

Make it happen then. I heard it was simple. And while you are at it, also add team-composition and aggro.

If it’s not clear yet, math can never reach usefulness of a personal DPS meter.

If you so desire to know it, then you can do the legwork. Like I said, the math isn’t too complicated..

Also your argument for a DPS meter is flawed. If you want a DPS meter because combat is too complicated to do math with, then the meter is useless because it can’t apply any meaningful real-time information to the fight that isn’t readily observed by just looking at the screen. The most it could do is tell you how much you did afterward, and in the end all that will ever be is a fraction of the damage from a steady maximum calculated out mathematically.

I would love a personal DPS meter, but as people have pointed out, unless you’re doing speedruns, this is unquestionably irrelevant as public knowledge.

When I had my guardian as healer spec, i did hardly any damage at all, but I had great success at causing our groups to “win” engagements by keeping people protected, booned up, and healthy.

I would rather have an inspect option for other players. I don’t care much what their DPS is, as long as I know they’re not running all blues.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

If you so desire to know it, then you can do the legwork.

That sounds good, too. Just open up the data so that players can make addons, that way Arenanet doesn’t have to waste development time making something controversial, and they can still have their DPS meters.

I like this plan.

Place a measurement goal in front of people, tell them their “success” or perception thereof depends on them reaching the measurement …. and you will get predictable results.

e.g. be careful what you measure.

TL:DR at bottom of post
=====

Analysts for a large gaming conglomerate that owns a developer that created a popular MMO determines that the company is losing an unexpected amount of money dealing with service requests from customers with issues regarding blocked playtime. These requests are taking a lot of time to resolve, tying up employees and detracting from overall revenue producing productivity within the development company.

At this point in the time, the developer has a customer satisfaction problem, not only with the quality of the product; they also have very long service request queues, often requiring weeks to address. This in turn has compounded the total customer experience which then created a negative perception of the game and developer which in turn led to attrition.

The nominal expectation at this point is that the developer will care about their customers’ experience, be concerned about loss of subscription, and spend the appropriate resources to correct the lack of quality leading to customer service requests.

Instead, the analysts focus on setting up a measurement designed to move more customer service requests through the queue in a timely manner, thereby reducing the resources required to handle them.

Given the measurement goal of closing ‘x’ number of customer requests per hour, the employees did exactly that. They reduced the customer service queue and were able to reduce the number of employees required to handle them, thereby saving the company money. Measurement attained.

They did so, however, at the expense of their customers. Instead of solving the customer’s problems, requests were simply marked closed with no investigation and no interaction. Customers were informed their requests were closed, and being closed, had no recourse for re-opening the issue, since it had already been resolved. Attrition escalated, costing the company more money in the end.

There are countless examples like this, including the Ford Company fiasco with customer warranties from over 40 years ago.

=====

TL:DR version: Be careful what you measure.

It would be nice to have an easy to use personal contribution meter that measures what my professions bring. I understand that DPS is only a small portion of that. And I refuse to play to a subcomponent meter knowing it will negatively impact my overall performance.

I just wish I had a personal dps meter so I could guage my own damage dealing capabilities. I also don’t think that damage meters would have any significant impact on any part of the game. This game doesn’t have several hour long raids with bosses who have enrage timers. The one groups who might be picky about performance are also the groups who require you to link gear and spec in the first place.

Concur with Chuo, and with Goldenwing. No to the DPS meter.

I would have no problem with a dedicated training ground, in effect a training dummy, that could tell me (or my group) what we’re doing. But far too many people in this game trained by WoW, making narrow measurements of ability because WoW had these knife edge gear checks.

GW2 is much more about movement skill and taking advantage of field/finisher synergies between the people you actually ended up grouped with. The DPS meter would give you a metric…about the wrong thing to optimize in GW2.

Oh, and the dodge daily already shows GW2’s engine can’t correctly measure defensive movement skill; the rapidly abandoned field/finisher daily also showed GW2’s engine couldn’t measure that well either (not that every class/spec/weapon could).

bewhatever.2390:

Concur with Chuo, and with Goldenwing. No to the DPS meter.

I would have no problem with a dedicated training ground, in effect a training dummy, that could tell me (or my group) what we’re doing. But far too many people in this game trained by WoW, making narrow measurements of ability because WoW had these knife edge gear checks.

GW2 is much more about movement skill and taking advantage of field/finisher synergies between the people you actually ended up grouped with. The DPS meter would give you a metric…about the wrong thing to optimize in GW2.

Oh, and the dodge daily already shows GW2’s engine can’t correctly measure defensive movement skill; the rapidly abandoned field/finisher daily also showed GW2’s engine couldn’t measure that well either (not that every class/spec/weapon could).

So you’re saying that because ANet did a very poorly designed system for tracking these kinds of things on the dailies, that they shouldn’t be implemented at all? Also, don’t know what you’re talking about with Daily Dodger. Never had an issue with it all. It has always recorded my dodges.

The problem of adding and all-encompassing “contribution-meter” is simply that the pseudo elite mentality will take over the community, and will still make that DPS stat the one that matters for those players (an attitude which will spread over the community like a plague afterwards, especially since then it would be officially sanctioned by ANet, by putting such tool in the game.) To those that say that I have no evidence such a gloomy future would come to pass I cite CoF 1 as pocket evidence of what would happen-it is more likely for it to be misused rather than being used as a “legitimate” tool for “self improvement”.

To be honest, just theorycraft to your heart’s content with sites like buildcraft, or similar other online tools. I have done that myself. However, even with such tools, there’s no telling how effective a build will be, REGARDLESS MATH AND EFFICIENCY NUMBERS, unless the player has fun with the build and plays it effectively-that it meets the player’s playstyle and feels good to him/her (same reason why a Warrior’s Berserker’s build is good for many but not all players, no matter what the “efficient power” numbers claim.)

AlietteFaye.7316:

bewhatever.2390:

Concur with Chuo, and with Goldenwing. No to the DPS meter.

I would have no problem with a dedicated training ground, in effect a training dummy, that could tell me (or my group) what we’re doing. But far too many people in this game trained by WoW, making narrow measurements of ability because WoW had these knife edge gear checks.

GW2 is much more about movement skill and taking advantage of field/finisher synergies between the people you actually ended up grouped with. The DPS meter would give you a metric…about the wrong thing to optimize in GW2.

Oh, and the dodge daily already shows GW2’s engine can’t correctly measure defensive movement skill; the rapidly abandoned field/finisher daily also showed GW2’s engine couldn’t measure that well either (not that every class/spec/weapon could).

So you’re saying that because ANet did a very poorly designed system for tracking these kinds of things on the dailies, that they shouldn’t be implemented at all? Also, don’t know what you’re talking about with Daily Dodger. Never had an issue with it all. It has always recorded my dodges.

Not about recording the dodges (remember the threads at the time?) The problem is a skilled player has moved out of the way already, the game knows that, so it doesn’t detect the superfluous dodge.

What the game can’t detect is that there is a blow which would have landed on you if you hadn’t moved. It doesn’t think that way. It looks for where the blow does land. So the game can’t really measure defensive movement skill, unless it put you in a synthetic encounter and measured the damage you took (and it can also measure the damage you “evaded” using dodge itself).

I think this is a limit of the engine itself, and therefore have no confidence that GW2 can even make a useful measurement, outside perhaps of putting someone in a synthetic encounter and measuring the overall result.

bewhatever.2390:

AlietteFaye.7316:

bewhatever.2390:

Concur with Chuo, and with Goldenwing. No to the DPS meter.

I would have no problem with a dedicated training ground, in effect a training dummy, that could tell me (or my group) what we’re doing. But far too many people in this game trained by WoW, making narrow measurements of ability because WoW had these knife edge gear checks.

GW2 is much more about movement skill and taking advantage of field/finisher synergies between the people you actually ended up grouped with. The DPS meter would give you a metric…about the wrong thing to optimize in GW2.

Oh, and the dodge daily already shows GW2’s engine can’t correctly measure defensive movement skill; the rapidly abandoned field/finisher daily also showed GW2’s engine couldn’t measure that well either (not that every class/spec/weapon could).

So you’re saying that because ANet did a very poorly designed system for tracking these kinds of things on the dailies, that they shouldn’t be implemented at all? Also, don’t know what you’re talking about with Daily Dodger. Never had an issue with it all. It has always recorded my dodges.

Not about recording the dodges (remember the threads at the time?) The problem is a skilled player has moved out of the way already, the game knows that, so it doesn’t detect the superfluous dodge.

What the game can’t detect is that there is a blow which would have landed on you if you hadn’t moved. It doesn’t think that way. It looks for where the blow does land. So the game can’t really measure defensive movement skill, unless it put you in a synthetic encounter and measured the damage you took (and it can also measure the damage you “evaded” using dodge itself).

I think this is a limit of the engine itself, and therefore have no confidence that GW2 can even make a useful measurement, outside perhaps of putting someone in a synthetic encounter and measuring the overall result.

Wouldn’t having the number of times you went down be just as good? That would still be a measure of whether or not you were being aware of the mechanics and your surroundings.

I honestly don’t remember any threads about the dodge thing. I only remember the ones about the combo daily not working, which was then promptly removed.

Personally, I feel like a DPS meter goes against the spirit of this game. I can understand your desire for one. But it’s just not what the game is about.

I would have no objections to a strictly personal meter. Self improvement is always good, but once others have the ability to see or demand to see your numbers, then it becomes a whole different game.

Ezpz.7612:

EDIT: So many people are missing the edit at the bottom of my next post I’ll just make it the first thing that shows up here. I have used the words dps meter throughout these next two post. Anytime I say dps meter, I also mean amount of health revived meter, healing done meter, dodges meter, buffs given meter, debuffs applied meter – essentially a complete picture of what people contribute in dungeons. A dps meter would be only one facet of the overall implementation.

[HAL]I’m sorry, Dave, but I’m afraid I can’t do that.[/HAL]

The problem is, that’s a lot more data to track. And if you check out the posts in this thread ( https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Condition-Cap-part-II-Electric-Boogaloo/first#post2126974 ), you’ll see that the game already has a problem there. And if they DID manage to squeeze some more out of it, that extra “space” would need to go to improving condition damage mechanics, NOT Performance Meters.

I agree with a lot of the “No” reasons given in this thread, but the simple fact is that the game itself can’t deal with tracking all the extra stuff accurate Performance Meters would require. It would be harmful to the game at best, and might make it completely unplayable for all of us if implemented.

My only support is if it’s optional, or better yet, personal only.

That is, only I can see how much DPS / Healing / Crowd Control I do. And if I checked a box, or something, I could share the results with my party. That way, if I’m playing with my friends, we can just browse the stats and discuss intelligently, and I don’t have to worry about some tryhard kitten in a dungeon kicking me because DPS isn’t high enough or whatever.

So:

Optional / personal? Yes.
Mandatory / always on? No. A million times no. Sure, a healing per second meter would make me feel useful on my Guardian, but the truth is, nobody will give a kitten about it. It’ll only be about DPS, and I’d rather not have some 16 year old kid, or some super-duper-mega-efficient ascended Zerk mesmer tryhard, be able to have hard statistics of my playstyle to lord over me.

Tolmos.8395:

alcopaul.2156:

Pve Scrub.

Who even says scrub anymore?

The term you were looking for is “carebear” :-P

Carebear I first saw in Ultima Online, it is about as old as Scrub from this range.

Newbie however is old enough to have grandchildren. I first heard in the 70’s, and at the time it was convention fandom slang also used in the SCA.

Even Noob is older then most Pop stars, being from the early Everquest era.

Instead of a dps meter – which would just become fodder for behavior we do not want in GW2 – I would rather see improvements/toggles to the combat log.

Dps meter is useless in GW2. If you believe that a dps meter is necessary in GW2, please, stop polluting our forums with your garbage.

I think it would be useful to have a combat log window in our hero panel. Something that could show me all the stats (dps, heal, rez, cond. applied, cond. removed, number and type of mobs and kill time, cause of death etc.) from the last 15 fights or something. It would be a great tool for evaluating you current build and seeing your strengths and weaknesses. I would not want it to be something you can ping, there is enough jerkism going on without giving jerks more tools to ease their jerkness.

I think it’s hilarious that people are trying to argue against a dps meter. It’s prety simple:

If you don’t think your dps matters, then you don’t have to use it.

If you do care, then it’s there for you.

…

That’s it. That’s all.

In games like wow, your dps meter has no actual effect on gameplay, except to make you somewhat aware of how you did this match, compared to last match. It doesn’t keep you from anything. It can’t make you any worse. It just makes you better. Yes, there are many MANY things that effect dps in this game. That’s EXACTLY why a meter is needed. Without it, there is no definitive way to tell how much your supports are helping you; or, how a particular team composition’s dps will stack up. We do not all have time to calculate this out before hand; and, It has been proven over and over again in other mmo’s, that calculations are usually flawed.

As for the many comments along the lines of “I don’t want a DPS meter because it allows people to make fun of my crappy dps…”

Trolls will always exist. They will bash your DPS with or without a meter. You will often get kicked from groups for no reason regardless. That is the human element at play. It has nothing to do with what stats are available.

MOST OF ALL. If you don’t think these stats are usefull or relevent, why do you even care? The decision should be up to the people who care about dps, not the ones who don’t. They can simply ignore it….. like me….

I don’t care about my own dps, or what people think of it. However, I know many people who do not play this game, for that reason alone. People who prefer a dungeon to be competitive should not be excluded from this game because someone is embarrassed about their own score. At least make a “ranked dungeon mode” with a dps meter, if you really cant handle criticism.

I could see a DPS meter that only works when attacking the dummies in Lion’s Arch – then you’d have a tool for calibrating your performance and improving your rotations. As long as the tool is limited maybe some of the impulse to make absurd character-to-character comparisons could be reined in also.

Of course, the ongoing problems with Condition Damage against objects/large bosses would have to be addressed…

DPS meters are only relevant in games where content difficulty is tiered and where gear determines the outcome as you have specific benchmarks that must be met or else the party has a high risk of failure.

This is not one of those games.

GW2 has an elitist element when it comes to dungeon speed runs and FoTM above a certain level (which is fine because those folks like to play with eachother), however as a whole GW2 is very non-elitist. It’s pretty clear Anet does not want their game to turn into a bunch of elitist a*holes that criticize others for not being able to carry their weight.

There are areas where I think elitism can work. Upper FoTM for examples. You will very rarely find a casual player interested in doing anything above level 20. Those that want to do FoTM50+ are already good and expect others to be as well. This is an area where elitism works. Speed running dungeons is acceptable as well to be elitist as long as you advertise it as a speed run and that you want experienced players. The problem with DPS meters is that the elitism will spill out into everything else because DPS checks could be potentially applied to every bit of content even if the content is easy.

It just isn’t necessary.

For example I joined a FoTM10 run a while back. They asked me to ping my gear, I said “wait, aren’t we doing FoTM10?” they insisted I ping. I had BiS for everything except back-piece at the time (was also before ascended weapons), I pinged and then I was booted and, no joke, called a scrub. This was for FoTM10, which I had completed umpteen times previously on almost every alt I have and some even in Rare gear. It’s easy content, but they decided that for FoTM10, they needed a player with absolute BiS for everything. If I was joining a FoTM30 group or something I would understand, heck even 20, but 10? Please….it’s that kind of attitude that should be avoided.

I’m running full zerker on 3 toons with the best builds available and I don’t want a dps meter. I know that I’m being useful to the party no matter the toon and that’s good enough for me.

mtpelion.4562:

DPS meters are only relevant in games where content difficulty is tiered and where gear determines the outcome as you have specific benchmarks that must be met or else the party has a high risk of failure.

This is not one of those games.

Maybe we have to consider raising the benchmark from simply pass/failure to good/bad run.

I think there should be an option where if you turn it on, others can see your DPS numbers. For those that doesn’t want others seeing their DPS can just leave it off.

And as stated earlier as long as that personal meter either filters out or identifies the parts of our so-called personal performance that are actually the efforts of Support effects from your teammates, awesome. When I crit because of someone else maintains fury on me, a percentage of that damage belongs to them, not me.

Yenn.9185:

Maybe we have to consider raising the benchmark from simply pass/failure to good/bad run.

I think there should be an option where if you turn it on, others can see your DPS numbers. For those that doesn’t want others seeing their DPS can just leave it off.

I’m not opposed to DPS meters, I’m opposed to them wasting development time creating one since the content doesn’t warrant it.

If they make harder content at some point where the benchmarks must be hit or else the party fails then you can expect to see my support for the DPS meter. Until then though, I’d rather have more/better content over unnecessary utilities.

Ezpz.7612:

EDIT: So many people are missing the edit at the bottom of my next post I’ll just make it the first thing that shows up here. I have used the words dps meter throughout these next two post. Anytime I say dps meter, I also mean amount of health revived meter, healing done meter, dodges meter, buffs given meter, debuffs applied meter – essentially a complete picture of what people contribute in dungeons. A dps meter would be only one facet of the overall implementation.

While what you are describing is not quite a failbot, it is heading towards a failbot. While you are talking about people choosing who sees the readout, we should fully well know that group leaders would require you to show this to get into group.

As far as the failbot thing, I remember when that was implemented in WoW. It took the annoyingness of the DPS meter and multiplied it x 100.

I quit within a couple of months because Failbot, and other things like forced pugging, caused an already unpleasant gaming atmosphere to plummet even further.

So you’re asking for a support meter as well. That’s perfectly fine by me. The difficult part is quantitatively measuring both DPS and support together, so it’s better if they keep a separate meter on that.

GW2 is highly based on action.

That is, PLAYER action. If you dodge, is because you dodged. If you hit an enemy, it’s because you directed the attack properly.

A game like WoW, or Diablo, or Path o Exile can have meters for that sort of thing, as you can’t activate skills while moving, and ‘evade’ is something calculated.

The only good way to measure the effectiveness of a build in GW2’s PvE is time. How much does it take to solo Luspicus with that build? How long does it take to complete each dungeon path?

As for WvW and PvP, the measurement is victory. A build or team that wins way more than 50% of the time against the same number of enemies regardless of who is using it is one that works too well and is to be nerfed.

mtpelion.4562:

Yenn.9185:

Maybe we have to consider raising the benchmark from simply pass/failure to good/bad run.

I think there should be an option where if you turn it on, others can see your DPS numbers. For those that doesn’t want others seeing their DPS can just leave it off.

I’m not opposed to DPS meters, I’m opposed to them wasting development time creating one since the content doesn’t warrant it.

If they make harder content at some point where the benchmarks must be hit or else the party fails then you can expect to see my support for the DPS meter. Until then though, I’d rather have more/better content over unnecessary utilities.

I honestly don’t think it would be a massive undertaking creating a DPS meter. It would probably take them as much as they are using on living story.

The game already measures DPS when you attack a mob. All they have to do is make a summary of that log.

I’m not quite sure what a DPS meter would achieve. DPS meters are there in other games as a tool to see if the DDs are actually doing their job, since in GW2 there isn’t the trinity and every class contributes differently to a fight, that tool would just tell you nothing of significance.

It would in fact probably encourage more elitism and promote things like not resing players or doing any support (ie, Guardians won#t switch to staff and use Empower because they’ll lose DPS).

I use to think that a well argued impassioned plea/argument could affect the direction of the game. I no longer believe that. They will/won’t implement a DPS meter depending on whether they want to. Nothing we say makes a difference.

Xae Isareth.1364:

I’m not quite sure what a DPS meter would achieve. DPS meters are there in other games as a tool to see if the DDs are actually doing their job, since in GW2 there isn’t the trinity and every class contributes differently to a fight, that tool would just tell you nothing of significance.

It would in fact probably encourage more elitism and promote things like not resing players or doing any support (ie, Guardians won#t switch to staff and use Empower because they’ll lose DPS).

Everyone is a DDs, healers, and CCs is this game. A (dps, support, etc) meter would tell us how each class is contributing to the party.

Elitism is already present in the game, and it is not impeding anyone on how they want to play.

Yenn.9185:

Xae Isareth.1364:

I’m not quite sure what a DPS meter would achieve. DPS meters are there in other games as a tool to see if the DDs are actually doing their job, since in GW2 there isn’t the trinity and every class contributes differently to a fight, that tool would just tell you nothing of significance.

It would in fact probably encourage more elitism and promote things like not resing players or doing any support (ie, Guardians won#t switch to staff and use Empower because they’ll lose DPS).

Everyone is a DDs, healers, and CCs is this game. A (dps, support, etc) meter would tell us how each class is contributing to the party.

Elitism is already present in the game, and it is not impeding anyone on how they want to play.

In the situation of a character getting the lowest DPS in the party, what would that tell you? He sucks? He was going around resing players? He was positioning mobs? You won’t be able to explain why he has the lowest DPS and thus that data tells you nothing at all.

It works in traditional trinity-based games because the job of the DD is just to DPS, thats it. He doesn’t res, he doesn’t heal, he doesn’t support, he just churns out damage. So if he ends up with rubbish DPS, he did his job wrong. You can’t apply the same argument in GW2.

You can add a ‘support’ bar. But how would you implement it? How would you rate resing, buffing, healing, CCing? Especially as each of those have different significance in different encounters. Furthermore, how would you count each ‘support’ action performed. Resing someone who was dead already takes a lot longer than resing a downed player, would they count for the same number of ‘points’?

A meter system just wouldn’t make any sense in this game.

I don’t care if people have a personal DPS meter, just dont allow a player to see another player’s DPS meter.

There’ll never be a DPS meter because… just look at the combat log. It’s terrible. First they would need to fix that, and because it would be such a low priority, it’ll never be done. If they did fix it, all they would need to do is implement logging to a text file and then the players could build the DPS meter.

marnick.4305:

Ezpz.7612:

My first argument is that gw2 is ultimately a game focused on self-progression, like most MMOs. Part of this progression is being able to identify your dps going up, either from getting better gear or becoming better at your rotation / choosing a more optimal trait setup and such.

I do not agree with this, because fundamentally GW2 is NOT focused on gear progression, which makes it unlike most MMOs.

Except it’s nothing more than a gear treadmill. They didn’t need to add Ascended gear to the game, but they did it anyways. Because the player base is nothing more than that of people that look for a distraction in the form of grinding and farming, instead of actual good gameplay.

GW2 is focused on player skill, and part of quantifying that skill is through a meter of some sort.

Shockwave.1230:

I don’t care if people have a personal DPS meter, just dont allow a player to see another player’s DPS meter.

I thought like before, but it would be nice to have a meter where you can see what everyone is doing this way you can kick the sub-par players from the group. If you can’t perform, get out. If you want all sorts of wacky builds, weapons and playstyles because “it’s more fun” then fine, go do solo stuff – don’t drag a group down.

I would imagine many, not all but many, of the people who are against meters are below average players. Why should a group have to contend with an unskilled player who can’t produce?

One’s DPS contribution matters: to oneself; and to one’s group if one is doing a dungeon speed run. Maxing DPS in the rest of the game’s content is hardly worth bothering with.

I don’t know about y’all, but I can determine if a build change matters to my DPS just fine without a meter. The speed run group already has a metric for determining if a player is holding the group’s DPS down.

There are a lot of behind the scenes programming changes that I’d like to see before ANet allocates development time on a convenience feature like a DPS meter. The two at the top of my list are condition revamp in PvE and an option to tone down the eyesore particle spam.