Guild Wars 2

All these complaints about vertical progression. I understand you guys don’t like it, but what seriously puzzles me is what did you expect to find on MMO game? MMO is a genre that is made to replace your life. There are different different professions, different crafts, two genders like in real life. Everything happens real time and your job is that of a monster slayer. Everything is made in “realistic” style. As politicians in real world strive for endlessly higher standard of living and better economy, so do the developers of MMO games strive to introduce new items to go after.

I thought everybody understood what MMO is about. This isn’t a Mario platformer. This isn’t a tactical combat simulator. This is MMO and MMO = work, grind, day-to-day events.

Your starting assumption is just not true, MMOs are not meant to replace your life, they are meant to be played with a huge number of other people. MMO doesn’t equal work or grind, WoW and games like it are all about replacing your live, but not all MMOs were designed that way. GuildWars 1, also it is an highly instanced game, is a perfect example for an MMO that doesn’t consume your life.

The Manifesto made us believe that GuildWars 2 would hold on to those things we loved about GuildWars 1 (“We took all the things you loved about GuildWars 1 and put it into a persistent world …”), but in the end it turned out that this game goes in the opposite direction.

Zenith.6403:

All these complaints about vertical progression. I understand you guys don’t like it, but what seriously puzzles me is what did you expect to find on MMO game? MMO is a genre that is made to replace your life. There are different different professions, different crafts, two genders like in real life. Everything happens real time and your job is that of a monster slayer. Everything is made in “realistic” style. As politicians in real world strive for endlessly higher standard of living and better economy, so do the developers of MMO games strive to introduce new items to go after.

I thought everybody understood what MMO is about. This isn’t a Mario platformer. This isn’t a tactical combat simulator. This is MMO and MMO = work, grind, day-to-day events.

No. MMO = massive multiplayer online. That’s it all it needs to be. How you see MMOs is only a product of your egocentricity imposed on your experiences.

Ah….thank you so much Blizzard for the post WoW generation of MMO enthusiasts.

MMO is not and possibly never meant to replace your life.
What you want to find in an MMO is fun and for some people, companionship to play with their friends.

I wonder what people in Simms online are trying to acheive and what their rewards are like ….. just wondering

That’s some subtle satire. Well done.

So it has come to this…….

It’s sad that that’s honestly what you believe an MMO has to be.

Squirrelbane.2510:

So it has come to this…….

It’s sad that that’s honestly what you believe an MMO has to be.

- Given the drastic constraints persistent world sets on game design, where can it compete with other games? What does persistent world give that instanced content doesn’t provide? Why are there dozens of games that are nothing but “like WoW, but we did this one thing differently”?

I don’t give two peanuts what’s on WoW, but some developers treat it like holy bible of game design and are scared to omit whatever features are on WoW in their own games. Crafting, resource nodes, daily achievements, events and fetch quests, persistent world, races and professions. Guild Wars 2 is imitating WoW so much that it’s embarrassing. Even in the manifesto video there’s constant references like how they don’t want players to compete over resource nodes. (that there must be resource nodes is taken for granted!)

Pretty much only if it were a new MMO. No problem with multi-player, no problem with online. But, I’m burned out on a treadmill that goes nowhere. I would buy an MMO that advertized itself on a new, modern take on the MMO, oh wait, I did buy GW2 on that basis. But, it seems they are just an MMO made in the image of WoW. Still looking for that MMO though. Skyrim Online maybe? They may have a more modern take on progression, haven’t had a chance to fully check it out.

I wish someone would buy and finish Prime Battle for Dominus. Daoc in space.

MMO = Community/*High time consumption.

RPG= Leveling, Challenge, Adventure.

MMOs are meant to be time consuming, but not life replacing. There is a HUGE difference. The same as ALL games are meant to consume your time.

While you might put 250 hours in one game. You put years into a MMO. That doesn’t replace your life though. It’s just not meant to be a game you push to the side, because you “beat” it. The constant development is supposed to make it very easy to constantly log in for most of your game sessions.

@Relentliss

Matt Firor(DAOC) is the Director of ESO. There’s always hope for that.

The first MMO that I had played did sort of… “replace” my life. Hell, that was like 6-7 years ago when I was still a kid…

That’s why I switched over to mechanics games because they were not as much on my mind when I leave the computer as MMO is… (ie. I wake up and I think to myself: “hmm… I wonder if I can get to the end of FoTM level 5 by the end of today”).

But I would beg the differ that MMO is more real if you compare it to other mechanics games. In life, it’s not so much that you can “grind your way through and earn success”, rather you have to have skills, have confidence, and be consistent in terms of your overall performances. Plus, a lot of things plays out between people and not against mobs with zero ability to create true dynamics in any events. So no, MMO (or a MMORPG) is far from being capable of representing what real life is like (unless you want to argue that you do interact with people….. Then I would agree with you, but I don’t think that was what the OP’s argument was about).

EDIT: And by the statements I made above, I’m only digressing towards the mechanics side, but of course there is the other important half which is the interaction with people of real emotions and opinions (not mobs).

Thing is, the term MMO is a blanket statement that is pretty broad. I mean, it covers an absolute ton of other games, (MMOFPS, MMORPG etc etc)

And because it defines a genre, the broadness of the term is deliberately vague. There are no rules except for the fact that it has to be online and it has to have a lot of people playing it concurrently.

Past that, we’re free to make and enjoy an MMO however we like. GW2 is not a job and is not designed to soak up your entire life. If it does, then that’s cool as you have naturally given yourself a goal, but taking it casually will get you to the exact same place, just a bit later.

I play mmos so that I can dress in female clothes.

MMORPG = An alternate world that’s accustom with the nature of humans.

It’s as simple as that. If players see mmorpg as merely another game with multi-player options, they’re so wrong. Mmorpg has always been a replica of how real world works. In the real world, which system has work the best? If elitism, democracy, meritocracy are the most successful system in our world, mmorpg should follow. Communism, egalitarianism and socialism in the real world are not in the top-tier because it doesn’t accustom well with the human nature and needs. If there’s a “better” system that accustom with human nature, the real world would’ve picked up that system earlier than new-gen mmorpgs.

To clarify, GW1 isn’t a mmorpg. It’s rated as corpg. A game that’s full of instances (teleported maps). It isn’t an open world. This is where it went different. GW2 is a mmorpg and can’t follow the exact same path as GW1. Corpg is very close towards console rpgs with multi-player options. Mmorpgs and console rpgs are being made differently for important reasons.

If players watch Sword Art Online anime, it projects how much human nature is developed and runs through a mmorpg. Only when there’s darkness, people can create their own light. Fun stuffs can only be created when it’s appreciated. It’s part of nature to appreciate what is lack the most. (That anime tops in Japan for good reasons).

I bought mmorpgs because I want to have an alternate life. I want to experience all kind of emotions. I want to experience how humans develop their bonds in the darkest times. The things that can’t be done in reality, I want it possible in the alternate world. I want to experience the nature of human in the alternate world. I play both console games and mmorpgs, but for 2 very different reasons.

I buy an MMO for the same reason I buy board games – to have some fun with friends. The MMO having the great advantage that I can make some new friends along the way.

But as soon as it starts taking over my life, I quit. I don’t need an addiction – any addiction – in my life.

that being said, I already have a fulltime job RL and hopefully soon a child on the way, and I do not need a virtual job as well. So as soon as a game becomes anything like work, I’ll quit as well.

MMORPG

People always forget about the RPG part.

RPGs have always been about character progression. Final fantasy, fallout, diablo, baldurs gate, whatever. Character progression, leveling up, upgrading weapons or armor, learning new abilities, have always been what sets RPGs apart from regular old adventure games like Mario.

For me the core of an MMORPG have always been about character progression and an open virtual world where you can run into other players without needing to invite them or them needing to invite you into their own personal game world.

So yeah, I too don’t understand why people are upset that an MMORPG is going to have continual character progression.

Naoko.7096:

MMORPG = An alternate world that’s accustom with the nature of humans.

It’s as simple as that. If players see mmorpg as merely another game with multi-player options, they’re so wrong. Mmorpg has always been a replica of how real world works. In the real world, which system has work the best? If elitism, democracy, meritocracy are the most successful system in our world, mmorpg should follow. Communism, egalitarianism and socialism in the real world are not in the top-tier because it doesn’t accustom well with the human nature and needs. If there’s a “better” system that accustom with human nature, the real world would’ve picked up that system earlier than new-gen mmorpgs.

To clarify, GW1 isn’t a mmorpg. It’s rated as corpg. A game that’s full of instances (teleported maps). It isn’t an open world. This is where it went different. GW2 is a mmorpg and can’t follow the exact same path as GW1. Corpg is very close towards console rpgs with multi-player options. Mmorpgs and console rpgs are being made differently for important reasons.

If players watch Sword Art Online anime, it projects how much human nature is developed and runs through a mmorpg. Only when there’s darkness, people can create their own light. Fun stuffs can only be created when it’s appreciated. It’s part of nature to appreciate what is lack the most. (That anime tops in Japan for good reasons).

I bought mmorpgs because I want to have an alternate life. I want to experience all kind of emotions. I want to experience how humans develop their bonds in the darkest times. The things that can’t be done in reality, I want it possible in the alternate world. I want to experience the nature of human in the alternate world. I play both console games and mmorpgs, but for 2 very different reasons.

If I read correctly: MMOs are a replica of the real world (aka, that can be done in reality) and you play them to experience what can’t be done in reality?

I find it amusing how everyone compares MMOs to WoW as if this was the first or best MMO made. WoW took the model created by EQ and a few other predocessors and dumbed it down for the mainstream. Taking with it any sense of real accomplishment and problem solving. WoW ruined the MMO genre in that it took it down a path far less challenging that it could have. Making MMO gamers expect to have things handed to them instead of actually working them out through trial and error and deduction. The only thing WoW did successfully was create a generation of lazy gamers…which is ironic and funny at the same time. This is just my opinion based on many hours of gaming on many MMOs.

circusfreak.2403:

I find it amusing how everyone compares MMOs to WoW as if this was the first or best MMO made. WoW took the model created by EQ and a few other predocessors and dumbed it down for the mainstream. Taking with it any sense of real accomplishment and problem solving. WoW ruined the MMO genre in that it took it down a path far less challenging that it could have. Making MMO gamers expect to have things handed to them instead of actually working them out through trial and error and deduction. The only thing WoW did successfully was create a generation of lazy gamers…which is ironic and funny at the same time. This is just my opinion based on many hours of gaming on many MMOs.

This is absolute nonsense…..WoW is a game people wanted to play, thats why more people played it than any other MMO in history….i played it for 30 minutes and hated it, but thats my choice, as it was other peoples choice to leave it if they wanted, but they didnt…it must have been doing something right.

Most people dont want a challenge, they want to come home from work or school and mess around with friends in a virtual world, go exploring etc.
I would point to EVE online as proof of this, without a doubt the most challenging MMO with the steepest learning curve of any game, and despite winning an enormous amount of awards consistently, it sits at a plateau population of a hardcore, dedicated community…new players number one complaint : “its to hard and takes to long”.
The point is that WoW might not be your game, nor is it mine, but it is for millions of people, and telling them they ruined the genre and are lazy gamers for playing and enjoying it is extremely ignorant and honestly quite pathetic.

Zenith.6403:

Squirrelbane.2510:

So it has come to this…….

It’s sad that that’s honestly what you believe an MMO has to be.

- Given the drastic constraints persistent world sets on game design, where can it compete with other games? What does persistent world give that instanced content doesn’t provide?

Social factor

Why are there dozens of games that are nothing but “like WoW, but we did this one thing differently”?

Lack of imagination, narrow vision and unwilingness to take risks with game design (a safe approach to business). The last point usually doesn’t work for poducents as they hoped it would. Copies are not the original.

I don’t give two peanuts what’s on WoW, but some developers treat it like holy bible of game design and are scared to omit whatever features are on WoW in their own games.

When you have developers that want only to have “something like WoW, but Better” and businessmen that are unwilling to risk their money on untested designs and prefer to use something that’s already been proved to be succesful (“it worked for Blizzard, it will work for us too!”), the result is another bland MMO that is exactly like all others.

Apparently even Anet eventually got themselves caught in that trap.

Primal.9513:

Naoko.7096:

MMORPG = An alternate world that’s accustom with the nature of humans.

It’s as simple as that. If players see mmorpg as merely another game with multi-player options, they’re so wrong. Mmorpg has always been a replica of how real world works. In the real world, which system has work the best? If elitism, democracy, meritocracy are the most successful system in our world, mmorpg should follow. Communism, egalitarianism and socialism in the real world are not in the top-tier because it doesn’t accustom well with the human nature and needs. If there’s a “better” system that accustom with human nature, the real world would’ve picked up that system earlier than new-gen mmorpgs.

To clarify, GW1 isn’t a mmorpg. It’s rated as corpg. A game that’s full of instances (teleported maps). It isn’t an open world. This is where it went different. GW2 is a mmorpg and can’t follow the exact same path as GW1. Corpg is very close towards console rpgs with multi-player options. Mmorpgs and console rpgs are being made differently for important reasons.

If players watch Sword Art Online anime, it projects how much human nature is developed and runs through a mmorpg. Only when there’s darkness, people can create their own light. Fun stuffs can only be created when it’s appreciated. It’s part of nature to appreciate what is lack the most. (That anime tops in Japan for good reasons).

I bought mmorpgs because I want to have an alternate life. I want to experience all kind of emotions. I want to experience how humans develop their bonds in the darkest times. The things that can’t be done in reality, I want it possible in the alternate world. I want to experience the nature of human in the alternate world. I play both console games and mmorpgs, but for 2 very different reasons.

If I read correctly: MMOs are a replica of the real world (aka, that can be done in reality) and you play them to experience what can’t be done in reality?

Yes. The “replica” is part of how humans behaviour and nature works in real world that’s reflected in mmorpgs. “Multi-player games” and “mmorpgs” are different in nature. In multi-player games, players just have fun playing with friends. In mmorpg, players make infinite stories and memories with friends. Mmorpgs need to corresponds with the nature and needs of the player behind the avatar because it’s set in a gigantic virtual “world”.

Let aside mmorpg, even in storybooks and movies, there’s a “world” inside and authors are recommended to touch deeply in human nature and behaviours to make an appealing story. Have we heard any good stories that is all happy and neutral, everyone are balanced, no antagonist from beginning to the end? Light can only shine in darkness. Humanly emotions and nature are part of parcel in mmorpg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mmorpg
(Read the psychology part of mmorpg where emotions are played deeply.)

“I play them to experience what can’t be done in reality” only meant I can’t shoot magic and slice monsters in reality, but I can do them in this alternate world. The difference is that I want to do it in a virtual world with realistic course of human nature that reflects the real world. A mmorpg must led humans-humans experience instead of humans-npc. If it’s the latter, people might as well play rpg console games.

i agree, always same thing wow that wow here atleast in this forums, in lineage 2 we were like ‘’never heard of it’’ same in ’’aion’’ means we didnt care, but here it’s fanboys are around so they have to talk about it like if it is somekind of holy grail for them.

wow was a cancer…may be not vanilla wow that was normal you actually had a big world to explore, burning crusade had some good stuff, wotlk was a fail made this kind of baddies in mmo, and yes a big bunch of baddies….when cataclysm came out people were crying deathwing was to hard for them…big bunch of baddies.

and the reason why wow was popular from the start and everyone wanted to play it, it wasnt because was sold as a holy grail, it was because Blizzard already had a huge loyal player base from, sc, wc, and diablo, and since these games were so kitten good…guess the loyal base was going to do…and was worldwide base.

but i think this wasnt the subject of the thread…he was asking why you buy or play an mmo in general.

my answer depends in the type…rpg? fps? arena-like? and i could name reasons of each type but apparently these narrow minds will just report my post because it will be an insult.

I want character progression. But that progression needs to be in what I have achieved. Not in how big the numbers on my gear are.

circusfreak.2403:

Robby,

I’ll make this short since the long version was wiped when the page refreshed. If you like easy-peezy straight to the finish games,, good on ya. WoW made that front and center. But in that process they made it financially moot for developers to put out a good, challenging MMO because the hard core base just doesnt rake in the dough. So when I see people complaining that an already easy game has put a little twist in their plans to cap out their toon in a week, ya Im going to call them lazy. Go back to WoW or whatever mainstream cake walk you play and have at it. If you want to voice a rational perhaps even informative response, great, now we can move forward in a positive light. And again I stated that it was just MY opinion, sorry if it didnt live up to your standards.

You didnt even read my post, if you had you we have seen that i dont play WoW and i didnt like it at all….i play EVE as my main game, which makes every other MMO look like a silly kiddies game.
As for rational or informative, show me where your post had any of those elements, you just attacked WoW and anyone who plays it….WoW did nothing to the MMO genre except offer players a game to play, which as it turns out was/is very, very popular…you can kick and stamp your feet like a little girl all you want, but WoW is not responsible for anything except WoW……if enough players wanted another MMO, they would be playing it, there are plenty to choose from.

JemL good post. But I disagree to a point that it was off topic. Let me explain myself. I used WoW as an example of what I feel a good MMO is NOT (again this is just MY opinoin). So why I do play MMOs is that I am chasing what they were. A real adventure into a new and virtual world. One where exploring meant actually discovering quest giving NPCs and then discovering where their quests led you. It was about immersing yourself into that virtual world not racing thru it to get to an end game (we were actually led to believe early on in MMOs that there was no “end game” it simply kept going thru new content). Grinding in some aspects of the game such as crafting are simply a product of the endevour (I dont know anyone who masters their craft in a relatively short period) so to me it was acceptable. Granted there is alot of unnecessary grinding anymore for the sole purpose of extending a games life. That is where I can see warranted complaints. I see my post had a little too much emotion at its core and I will apoligize to anyone who gets offended. At the end of the day we game because its fun.

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online
RPG = Role Playing Game

MMORPG: A game with lots of people playing roles of characters in the world the game is set in.

RPG’s are about character progression, but that doesn’t mean they have to be about stat progression (especially in a vertical manner). In an RPG you are supposed to be playing the role of a character in an alternate fictional setting. The whole point of RPGs is the Role playing part, a part which most of us do not really take part in anymore. We are supposed to be immersed in the world, the story of, and life of a character; usually a character that is some kind of adventurer, seeking battles, places to explore, etc.

Traveling across different lands, kingdoms, through dangerous wilderness areas, making friends and acquaintances, overcoming challenges, making discoveries, etc. The mechanics of a game are just one small part of an online role playing game, typically designed to try and bring out the most of the fictional settings.

If anything an RPG is about the story; in an MMORPG it’s about your characters story. What kind of life does your character live? What kind of challenges does he/she overcome?

The mechanics used are merely there to augment that story, make it seem a little more real, more involving, but I think many have forgotten and overlooked this major element of an RPG.

They want instant gratification out of it, a quick jump into a battle, skipping out on everything that lead up to the conflict. Ignoring the who, whats, and why’s of the fictional world, cutting out the story for quick and cheap entertainment.

Players should be asking for more to the worlds view, the worlds story, their story, instead of asking for a piece of virtual equipment that does nothing for them than give a false sense of progression for a very short period of time. Ask for more challenges, more epic conflicts and puzzles that force us to think and work together or on a more personal level with our character.

We should be etching out who are character is in game, who we are playing as, by overcoming the challenges presented to us and making choices that show the character of our characters.

Zenith.6403:

MMO is a genre that is made to replace your life.

In all sincerity, you probably shouldn’t play MMOs for your own health.

Sollith.3502:

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online
RPG = Role Playing Game

MMORPG: A game with lots of people playing roles of characters in the world the game is set in.

RPG’s are about character progression, but that doesn’t mean they have to be about stat progression (especially in a vertical manner). In an RPG you are supposed to be playing the role of a character in an alternate fictional setting. The whole point of RPGs is the Role playing part, a part which most of us do not really take part in anymore. We are supposed to be immersed in the world, the story of, and life of a character; usually a character that is some kind of adventurer, seeking battles, places to explore, etc.

Traveling across different lands, kingdoms, through dangerous wilderness areas, making friends and acquaintances, overcoming challenges, making discoveries, etc. The mechanics of a game are just one small part of an online role playing game, typically designed to try and bring out the most of the fictional settings.

If anything an RPG is about the story; in an MMORPG it’s about your characters story. What kind of life does your character live? What kind of challenges does he/she overcome?

…

Players should be asking for more to the worlds view, the worlds story, their story, instead of asking for a piece of virtual equipment that does nothing for them than give a false sense of progression for a very short period of time. Ask for more challenges, more epic conflicts and puzzles that force us to think and work together or on a more personal level with our character.

We should be etching out who are character is in game, who we are playing as, by overcoming the challenges presented to us and making choices that show the character of our characters.

This. This strange notion that MMOs are defined by grinding gear treadmills & where numbers get bigger on a daily basis came out of D&D et al. where notably you might take a month of tabletop to go from level 1 to level 2. It no longer applies or fits to the scope & speed of the average online multiplayer game. Yet the core principle of such tabletop games, that of crafting a character & enjoying the journey that character takes, is even more important, and sadly neglected.

If all people want is a treadmill, where they’re logging in to do the same routine day after day (and I count raiding in this unless raiding has become a lot more interesting than it used to be), then I seriously suggest they examine their lives and what they consider to be entertainment, because oddly enough most people already have a real life that provides boring routine in spades. Also I invite them to check out some of the Asian grind MMOs that cater to precisely this playstyle far more effectively. There is no requirement to homogenise all MMOs to the same level of mediocrity – I would much rather people play the MMO that fits their chosen niche than vice-versa.

The days of MMOs consuming your every waking hour are gone. There are too many activities competing for the player’s time, and that’s just in the entertainment space alone. It’s not even about player age or nostalgia – there are simply vastly more options available than there were a decade ago.

Since this topic has nothing to do with Guild Wars 2, it is considered off-topic and therefore it will be locked too.