Guild Wars 2

Will Anet ever make Non-DPS role important?

I want to be able to play the group PvE dungeons without the retaliation of the community for not specing for pure damage.

I would like the option to play more roles than just damage in this game.

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

In my honest opinion, you’re unlikely to change ANet’s development as much as you’d hope, and you’re unlikely to change the community’s mindset at all.

Your Best bet is to gather like minded people around yourself and play the way you want to play with them. If you wanna spec for Healing or spec to “tank”, then it’s best to gather a group of friends who share your goals and want you to heal or “tank” for them. This scenario is a win-win for everyone around. Sometimes makes me wonder why people dislike this solution.

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

In my honest opinion, you’re unlikely to change ANet’s development as much as you’d hope, and you’re unlikely to change the community’s mindset at all.

Your Best bet is to gather like minded people around yourself and play the way you want to play with them. If you wanna spec for Healing or spec to “tank”, then it’s best to gather a group of friends who share your goals and want you to heal or “tank” for them. This scenario is a win-win for everyone around. Sometimes makes me wonder why people dislike this solution.

Because they want what they want and they also want the convenience of PuGging whenever they want.

Yesterday I saw some guild recruitment where it was claimed that they look for experienced dungeon/fractal runners. I consider myself such player, yet I was not accepted, because I’ve built my guardian on soldier stats and condi removing runes/traits which is very useful for the whole party, yet it lack some DPS so I was told GL BB

Those zerkers are just dumb. Sorry, but they do. The most fun is when I see them play open world and some champ insta-down them. Most of them don’t even try to dodge. Thousand Blades rulezzzz, I guess.

Mortifer.2946:

Yesterday I saw some guild recruitment where it was claimed that they look for experienced dungeon/fractal runners. I consider myself such player, yet I was not accepted, because I’ve built my guardian on soldier stats and condi removing runes/traits which is very useful for the whole party, yet it lack some DPS so I was told GL BB

Those zerkers are just dumb. Sorry, but they do. The most fun is when I see them play open world and some champ insta-down them. Most of them don’t even try to dodge. Thousand Blades rulezzzz, I guess.

You aren’t experienced in dungeons/fractals if you believe that an extremely inefficient stat combo + rune type + trait allocation is “very useful” yet shrug off the fact that you “lack some DPS” and justify it because you’ve seen people die in open world.

People aren’t dumb for denying you because they know very well that no one who knows how to play most effectively would willingly hinder themselves to such a degree unless it was purely for the sake of trolling people.

When you know what to do in an encounter, it can be done in full DPS-oriented builds. This is why experienced players don’t want to have anything to do with people that play on a suboptimal level. To them it’s really annoying and spoils their fun.

Maybe instead of mocking them you should try to play with players that share a similar mentality to yours and like to take things slowly with low DPS, as it’s apparently what you like.

Believe it or not, these ‘roles’ did exist toward launch. Dig ‘Anchor Guardian’ out of the archives, for example. The primary difference now is, after two years, people don’t suck at the game anymore. Dungeon groups don’t want to bring a ‘healer’ because there is no need for one at 100% HP (check out Superior Rune of the Scholar.) Dungeon groups don’t want to bring a ‘tank’ because mob aggro has virtually zero to do with defensive stats and is primarily targeted at highest damage and/or lowest HP players rendering tanks even more useless than healers. I don’t have the ‘dead horse’ meme on my tablet, but this issue… Meh, nevermind…see ya next week PHIW thread. /wave

I need to learn the cardinal rule of MMO’s.

If you enjoy playing an MMO, stay off the forums Like 90 % of the rest of the players.
See I came back to Play my engineer. Was actually enjoying myself. Then I decided to give a looksy at the forums. And I suddenly remembered what chased me off to begin with.

The attitude of the uber-elite " Zerk or gtfo! damage only builds or FO!" crowd.
This game really has a bad bad community on the forums, which is ironic since while playing the game…. Most players are very helpful. Escept for the aforementioned…. then again, I believe as a % of the Player base IN game… they are a lot less than as a % of posters.

The condescension just drips so thickly on some posts.

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

Not necessarily.

There is only demand because of the way the encounters are designed. If they made the encounters that demanded other playstyles, then you would see a variety of builds and other gear sets being used.

Anet doesn’t see zerging and stacking as a problem though. They tried to change it with the revamped Teq encounter, and the Triple Wurm encounter, but overall, the dungeons haven’t been changed, and neither has the open-world zerging. This is why GW2’s PVE encounters are considered a joke in the MMO world. It’s a harsh thing to say, but it’s the truth.

They’d have to re-design the entire concept behind mobs and dungeons or even the entire concept bheind pve to give more room for roles that aren’t solely dps oriented, because cc and support have a lot of merit in pvp (for which they were likely designed), but are oftentimes redundant in pve.

So yea, not happening.

Mortifer.2946:

Yesterday I saw some guild recruitment where it was claimed that they look for experienced dungeon/fractal runners. I consider myself such player, yet I was not accepted, because I’ve built my guardian on soldier stats and condi removing runes/traits which is very useful for the whole party, yet it lack some DPS so I was told GL BB

It is their perogative – as it is their guild – who they’d like to invite. They wanted to play with players of likeminded attitudes. To be honest, they probably did themselves as well as you a favor.

It is merely your ego that’s got you fired up because you feel someone’s taken a potshot at your “experienced” status. My suggestion is to let it go. It really is no skin off your nose if you failed to get into that guild.

However. I do have a question for you. If you Do feel that you’re quite experienced at Dungeons/Fractals, then you’d be able to do feats that most people would consider “experienced” only, yes? Like solo Lupicus in Arah. Or run full melee 49/50 fractals. Okay, now do it all in zerk gear. If you truly know how a fight works, then you ought to be able to do it in zerk gear, yes? Because if you know how each attack works, you’d be able to nullify the damage with just the perfect dodge or block. Anyone can stand in one spot and get hit while wearing tanky gear. Not everyone can complete a fight with nary a scratch on them.

Mortifer.2946:

Those zerkers are just dumb. Sorry, but they do.

Are you the quintessential PVT “tank” guardian? Because with grammar like this…

Mortifer.2946:

The most fun is when I see them play open world and some champ insta-down them. Most of them don’t even try to dodge. Thousand Blades rulezzzz, I guess.

I have a dirty secret. I rarely join “zerker only, must be meta” Arah runs. I PUG Arah, and there are times when the dice roll and you get that bowbear ranger, or the PVT or Cleric staffguard. I always make sure to be friendly. I have yet to be kicked from a PUG Arah.

The most fun is when I see Lupicus absolutely destroy them because they’ve never challenged themselves to learn their class or the fight. Most of them don’t even know when to dodge, because dodging’s never been that important to them. I do my due diligence and attempt a res if they’re right at lupi’s feet. But usually I’m soloing lupi before phase 2 ends. That is the most fun.

nexxe.7081:

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

Not necessarily.

There is only demand because of the way the encounters are designed. If they made the encounters that demanded other playstyles, then you would see a variety of builds and other gear sets being used.

Anet doesn’t see zerging and stacking as a problem though. They tried to change it with the revamped Teq encounter, and the Triple Wurm encounter, but overall, the dungeons haven’t been changed, and neither has the open-world zerging. This is why GW2’s PVE encounters are considered a joke in the MMO world. It’s a harsh thing to say, but it’s the truth.

I agree. You can say " Anet provides the tools, but the community doesn’t demand it." but…if Anet designs encounters so that certain tools are unecessary, it doesn’t matter.

The community demand is inextricably entwined to encounter design.

Imagine I have the snake venom anti-toxin In the world, and it’s the cheapest. TRhen I decide to go to the ONE place In the world with zero poisonous snakes. I could offer them for 5 cents, No one there would buy them, because they are not necessary there.

The ONLY person that might is someone that would then take my 5 cent snake anti-venom, and sell it where there are many…Like the amazon…

Ok.. the Point. You cannot blame on " The community" what is basically a game design fault. If some Builds are desired while others are not, it is because there are many encounters where desired builds are helpful…while undesired builds are not.

You put the cart before the horse. The devs can give all of us the best anti-snake venom ointment, what good is it, if they forgot to put the snakes in the game?

Oh man, I love this topic. I sure wish we had more threads like these.

I don’t see them ever doing this. They’ve thrown out the support roles from GW1 and just made everything a dps race.

All the content is catered towards berzerker specs. If you aren’t DPS specced then you are a hindrance to the party because the dungeons don’t require support specs like GW1 did. They’d need to redesign their whole combat system if they were to make support viable.

While I’d more then welcome this change, it’s just not going to happen.

Knighthonor.4061:

Will Anet ever make Non-DPS role important?

I want to be able to play the group PvE dungeons without the retaliation of the community for not specing for pure damage.

I would like the option to play more roles than just damage in this game.

Me too and I totally agree with you. Feels like ANET made only zerk build to take for everything.

Maybe(JUST MAYBE, doesn’t mean Im right) solution could be to buff and strengthen more mobs so people cant go with zerk everywhere

nexxe.7081:

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

Not necessarily. There is only demand because of the way the encounters are designed. If they made the encounters that demanded other playstyles, then you would see a variety of builds and other gear sets being used.

Anet doesn’t see zerging and stacking as a problem though. They tried to change it with the revamped Teq encounter, and the Triple Wurm encounter, but overall, the dungeons haven’t been changed, and neither has the open-world zerging. This is why GW2’s PVE encounters are considered a joke in the MMO world. It’s a harsh thing to say, but it’s the truth.

True, the two go hand-in-hand and the Tools affect the Community. But there is a truism in human psychology. “How do I make it better?” This is what drives the community of players to step up their game. The most bleeding edge and forethinking players will work with whatever rules they are given to maximize their performance.

So honest question to you. I’m not opposed to seeing more diverse encounters. As far as stacking, I’m rather phlegmatic about it. In my eyes, stacking is a tool. Use it only when it makes sense. Wouldn’t make sense to stack on the Thaumanova boss, no point in trying, right?
Let’s take an encounter that might be an old tired hat that’s just “DPS it til it dies” and you explain how you’d improve it to where it increases the demand for “other roles” without shackling the game with a hard trinity. How would you improve the Effigy as the end of CoF P1?

Serbianwolf.1652:

Me too and I totally agree with you. Feels like ANET made only zerk build to take for everything.

Maybe(JUST MAYBE, doesn’t mean Im right) solution could be to buff and strengthen more mobs so people cant go with zerk everywhere

Not a bad idea. Let’s test this out with just one scenario first. Let’s take Mai Trin and Horrik and buff their damage. That should surely highlight for everyone the importance of having some defensive stats.

Nerelith.7360:

nexxe.7081:

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

Not necessarily.

There is only demand because of the way the encounters are designed. If they made the encounters that demanded other playstyles, then you would see a variety of builds and other gear sets being used.

Anet doesn’t see zerging and stacking as a problem though. They tried to change it with the revamped Teq encounter, and the Triple Wurm encounter, but overall, the dungeons haven’t been changed, and neither has the open-world zerging. This is why GW2’s PVE encounters are considered a joke in the MMO world. It’s a harsh thing to say, but it’s the truth.

I agree. You can say " Anet provides the tools, but the community doesn’t demand it." but…if Anet designs encounters so that certain tools are unecessary, it doesn’t matter.

The community demand is inextricably entwined to encounter design.

Imagine I have the snake venom anti-toxin In the world, and it’s the cheapest. TRhen I decide to go to the ONE place In the world with zero poisonous snakes. I could offer them for 5 cents, No one there would buy them, because they are not necessary there.

The ONLY person that might is someone that would then take my 5 cent snake anti-venom, and sell it where there are many…Like the amazon…

Ok.. the Point. You cannot blame on " The community" what is basically a game design fault. If some Builds are desired while others are not, it is because there are many encounters where desired builds are helpful…while undesired builds are not.

You put the cart before the horse. The devs can give all of us the best snti-snake venom ointment, what good is it, if they forgot to put the snakes in the game?

Only this is not the case at all. Gw2 isnt a game in which there is no one to heal. It isnt a game where there is no one to crowd control. This isnt a game where there is no one to Damage over time. This isnt a game where there is no one to support. etc…

DigitalKirin got it exactly right. Gw2 is a game that unlike most others doesnt force you into a role. thats all. It gives you all the tools you need to do anything you need and its up to you how to act. You want to go full out burst damage.. sure that works but it isnt the only thing that works.

Should the game be blamed for giving us freedom of choice? Is a role only valid if without it you fail? If I enjoy playing a support is there no point in playing one if with no support we can still complete a dungeon?

You said it yourself, you played an engineer and enjoyed yourself. An engineer like say someone specked for a support role doesn’t deal as much damage as some other professions. Does that mean its not viable?

So no I wouldnt say you’re trying to sell the anti-venom somewhere where there are no poisons snakes, you’re selling the anti-venom where there are plenty of snakes only the locals only care about extracting the venom with their mouths cause its quicker for them even though that sometimes leads to unfortunate consequences.

As mentioned above, Anet would need to totally redesign PvE in order to move people away from DPS centric play. As a quick off the top of my head list, these are the things Anet would need to review and rework,
o Dodge Mechanic – (if you can evade the attack it removes the need for support/healing)
o Condition capping – until condi damage matches direct or we get more mobs like the husks at wurm condition damage wont be as useful
o Dungeon Design – Encourages skip and stack gameplay which leads to DPS centric
play
o Event mechanics. Needs to discourage zerging, change the reward mechanics to award support and denial within the zerg

As you can see, it’s not an easy or short term fix. If they deem it broken at all.
Boss Mechanics.

Could you explain how skipping leads to DPS centric play? How damage helps with skipping?

Serbianwolf.1652:

Knighthonor.4061:

Will Anet ever make Non-DPS role important?

I want to be able to play the group PvE dungeons without the retaliation of the community for not specing for pure damage.

I would like the option to play more roles than just damage in this game.

Me too and I totally agree with you. Feels like ANET made only zerk build to take for everything.

Maybe(JUST MAYBE, doesn’t mean Im right) solution could be to buff and strengthen more mobs so people cant go with zerk everywhere

‘Zerk’ isn’t a build. It’s a stat combination. The ‘variety’ you seek (for PvE anyway), that has obviously eluded you comes from weaponsets, utility skills, traits, sigils, runesets, etc. Find 20 ‘Zerker builds’ of ANY profession and gear stats will be the only thing that is the same in 90% of the people you run across. Asking for DPS doesn’t necessarily mean “must be 100% [This] Meta build”. There are DPs concecration guards, dps shout guards, DPs staff eles, DPs might stacking eles, DPs Phalanx warriors, DPs Axe warriors, etc, etc, etc. Most of them will run their builds differently b/c people are different, but we ALL understand that you can’t tank or heal a boss to death. Since ‘support’ comes from skills and traits and has almost nothing to do with stats, why wouldn’t we put those stats to their most efficient use?

Suggesting that ‘zerkers are kittens’ because they want/don’t allow (implied:alienate) certain people in their group is a valid opinion. However, suggesting the Devs should ‘do away with these zerkers’ by alienating them and forcing others into their groups is simply ridiculous and a hipocracy.

Your post and your Sig share a similar bit of irony. “Nothing is real” is an absolute statement about there not being any absolutes. “Everything is permitted” is a completely subjective statement that requires blind belief for it to have any merit. O.o See where I’m going with this? It’s not a paradigm-shattering bit of profound thought, but rather a bit of self-contradicting nonsense.

I Play How I Want!!

Wethospu.6437:

Could you explain how skipping leads to DPS centric play? How damage helps with skipping?

In GW2 the trash mobs are just that, trash. They don’t offer any variation in the required tactics or builds within the dungeon. In other MMO’s I’ve played trash mobs are a real threat and often require specialist tactics to kill.

Now, since the mobs don’t offer (reward, build or challenge) anything different people skip them and so by skipping them, it only adds to the DPS centric nature of PvE as there is nothing in the encounter to dilute the DPS centric nature

It’s like putting milk in coffee, you can put milk in or not(skip trash of not) but it’s still coffee.

Think that makes sense and I did say it was off the top of my head

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

As mentioned above, Anet would need to totally redesign PvE in order to move people away from DPS centric play. As a quick off the top of my head list, these are the things Anet would need to review and rework,
o Dodge Mechanic – (if you can evade the attack it removes the need for support/healing)
o Condition capping – until condi damage matches direct or we get more mobs like the husks at wurm condition damage wont be as useful
o Dungeon Design – Encourages skip and stack gameplay which leads to DPS centric
play
o Event mechanics. Needs to discourage zerging, change the reward mechanics to award support and denial within the zerg

As you can see, it’s not an easy or short term fix. If they deem it broken at all.
Boss Mechanics.

It really sounds like you’re asking for ANET to implement the Holy Trinity, which they made very clear from about a year before the game was released (probably earlier, I don’t remember) that said they were trying to get away from. In fact, not having a trinity was one of the selling points of this game, the other two big ones being that there’d be no Grind, and that the game would be generally quite Casual-Friendly.

You’re practically asking them to change one of the core tenets of this game, but who know? Perhaps with enough demand, they just might…

Until then, the game mechanics are what they are – for better or worse. We all know them know and we all understand them. You might not agree with them (personally I’d also like more diversity in class roles rather than 5/5 dps classes), but hey, you go with the flow or you sink.

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

Wethospu.6437:

Could you explain how skipping leads to DPS centric play? How damage helps with skipping?

In GW2 the trash mobs are just that, trash. They don’t offer any variation in the required tactics or builds within the dungeon. In other MMO’s I’ve played trash mobs are a real threat and often require specialist tactics to kill.

Now, since the mobs don’t offer (reward, build or challenge) anything different people skip them and so by skipping them, it only adds to the DPS centric nature of PvE as there is nothing in the encounter to dilute the DPS centric nature

It’s like putting milk in coffee, you can put milk in or not(skip trash of not) but it’s still coffee.

Think that makes sense and I did say it was off the top of my head

By same logic, even my breakfast leads to a DPS centric play.

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

Wethospu.6437:

Could you explain how skipping leads to DPS centric play? How damage helps with skipping?

In GW2 the trash mobs are just that, trash. They don’t offer any variation in the required tactics or builds within the dungeon. In other MMO’s I’ve played trash mobs are a real threat and often require specialist tactics to kill.

Now, since the mobs don’t offer (reward, build or challenge) anything different people skip them and so by skipping them, it only adds to the DPS centric nature of PvE as there is nothing in the encounter to dilute the DPS centric nature

It’s like putting milk in coffee, you can put milk in or not(skip trash of not) but it’s still coffee.

Think that makes sense and I did say it was off the top of my head

that pretty much sums it up. Not to mention the aggro mechanic means that it’s easy to break combat. Anyone who has played GW1 will remember the aggro circle and how important it was to pull carefully in dungeons because the trash mobs will completely destroy you if you over aggro. Slaver’s Exile is a prime example of required careful pulling and aggro control. Apart from the fact that the mobs also came with resurrection skills it meant that selective targeting of mobs was even more critical. Slaver’s Exile is a more extreme example. The regular dungeons were still challenging especially on hard mode.

GW2 has nothing like that. Trash mobs will do just that, mob you and burn you down through attrition not through any sort of slick skill usage that has to be prepared for. Hard mode is non existent except if you aggro everything in sight. Mob AI is deficient. The list of everything wrong with dungeons is huge

As long as we can calculate maximum damage and income remains at a kill-all-monsters-quickly state then we will always have a DPS build.

Since all reward in this game is through RNG, a DPS style is the most efficient at getting through the rng clutter to the things you want.

Galen Grey.4709:

Only this is not the case at all. Gw2 isnt a game in which there is no one to heal. It isnt a game where there is no one to crowd control. This isnt a game where there is no one to Damage over time. This isnt a game where there is no one to support. etc…

DigitalKirin got it exactly right. Gw2 is a game that unlike most others doesnt force you into a role. thats all. It gives you all the tools you need to do anything you need and its up to you how to act. You want to go full out burst damage.. sure that works but it isnt the only thing that works.

Should the game be blamed for giving us freedom of choice? Is a role only valid if without it you fail? If I enjoy playing a support is there no point in playing one if with no support we can still complete a dungeon?

You said it yourself, you played an engineer and enjoyed yourself. An engineer like say someone specked for a support role doesn’t deal as much damage as some other professions. Does that mean its not viable?

So no I wouldnt say you’re trying to sell the anti-venom somewhere where there are no poisons snakes, you’re selling the anti-venom where there are plenty of snakes only the locals only care about extracting the venom with their mouths cause its quicker for them even though that sometimes leads to unfortunate consequences.

The big problem is, that the game rewards certain builds..Mostly DPS, while punishing others…Things like Damage over time builds.

Why would any group take a necro into a dungeon?

Anet gave us necros, Now you can say " you can be free to play a necromancer" and fact is, I play a necromancer, but Only because I like to play either solo, or duo with my wife. But is it the community’s fault that zerker groups will not take a necromancer into a dungeon if any other prefered class is available?

My point is that you are 100 % right.

You are free to play any way you wish with any tools you wish. But if the tools you choose are considered sub-optimal by the rest of the community don’t blame the community for kicking you.

If Anet makes Damage over time, less preferable, you are perfectly free to specc as damage over time, to wear vitality or toughness gear…to specc heals, and tanks…

You are free to be sub-optimal according to what the community considers sub-optimal. And the community is free to not carry you. And who determined what builds are optimal and what builds are not? What armor is best?

let’s try a mind experiment. Imagine that Anet introduced two changes. Not saying I want these changes, but let’s introduce a few changs to encounters, and see what the " community" decides.

make it so Bosses are weak to damage over time effects but have MORE armor so that direct damage is less effective and… improve AI, so that they do not stack. Also…add a few More healers that are smart enough to not rush into the front line, Instead stay behind healing everyone else.

Suddenly…. damage over time becomes something to consider. Suddenly… pure DPS builds become less prefered.

Do I think Anet should do this? That is a subject for another thread. But I will tell you this… the " meta" will change, because the developer changed the encounters.

You can’t let anet off the hook, the reason that Pure DPS is the meta is because that is how Anet designed the game.

Fact..Most Power players Live in a skinner box. They will chase after an " optimum build" but what makes a build Optimum? it is best able to face the encounters the developer designs….

Who decides how Mobs act and react? The developer. So…who decides what is meta? Not the community….. the developer.

Are healers and tanks Possible? of course they are. The devs gave us the tools to play tanks, and healers. So…. why aren’t there more tanks and healers In dungeons?

Because Anet doesn’t want them in dungeons. They can sell us all the snake anti-venom in the world as cheaply as Possible..what good is it if they didn’t Put snakes inn the game?

The best tank, and heal tools in the game mean nothing, if encounters can be DPS’d.

Zerker or gtfo is the meta because Anet decided it was the meta by designing encounters as they are designed.

@Lil Puppy:This. We’ve said this numerous times as well as other things mentioned above.

Here’s the ultimate breakdown…

The Three Tenets of the DPS Meta:
1)We kill things fast because we can.
Damage grows exponentially the more you build for it.
2)We don’t slow down because we don’t need to.
Everyone has a self-heal, dodges, and damage mitigation.
3)#1+#2=More Loots
In a game all about having expensive, flashy cosmetics, random loot tables suck.
Getting more ‘crap loot’ is better than getting less ‘crap loot’.

There you have it folks. That’s it.

“First you kill all the bosses, then you get all the loots, and then you get all the power!”
-Scarface (sort of)

In most dungeon paths, the bosses are the only thing that matters and I’ll take a Zerker Axe Necro any day. They can hit like a truck. One of my good Fractal buddies has rocked a beastly Necro since launch and has saved more than a few butts. Most people reject Necros outright b/c sillies assume Necro is all about condition damage. Yes, their power specs are mostly single target but Necro can build for great damage.

The big problem is, that the game rewards certain builds..Mostly DPS, while punishing others…Things like Damage over time builds.

Hardly. DoT builds can still clear content, they aren’t punished.

make it so Bosses are weak to damage over time effects but have MORE armor so that direct damage is less effective

Lupicus and the Bersekrer Abomination have ~3,450 armour. Most DPS calculations are created assuming a boss of 2,600 armour – heavier armour targets exist – but Berserker is still preferred. Make the armour too heavy and you just end up with a group taking four berserker players and then the warrior just switches to conditions since they’ll cap bleeds, burn and do some torment all single-handedly.

improve AI, so that they do not stack. Also…add a few More healers that are smart enough to not rush into the front line, Instead stay behind healing everyone else.

How do you “improve the AI so they do not stack”? Like, in a practical sense how do you code that? I’m actually curious. And there are healers in the game, they don’t rush, players just approach them.

Suddenly…. damage over time becomes something to consider. Suddenly… pure DPS builds become less prefered.

Nope.

Zerker or gtfo is the meta because Anet decided it was the meta by designing encounters as they are designed.

every every every every every every every every every

EVERY

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single game with combat in all of history has a meta that develops to the point that you take the lowest amount of defenses as possible and maximise your offence. Whether this means dropping a healer, having a DPS perform as off-tank rather than a fully dedicated one, or just maintaining trinity roles but having each player do with the bare minimum of defensively attributed gear possible, it happens. In Dragon Age you have tanks, healers, DPS. People soon realised if you just stacked mages you could absolutely obliterate everything in front of you – and mages could also spec in to healing (or just use healing potions). Since their DPS was so high you didn’t need a tank to hold aggro when you could just make everything explode with incredible speed.

It sounds like you just want the trinity back. The truth is, in GW2, everyone IS the trinity. YOU are the DPSer! YOU are the healer! YOU are the damage mitigation! All in one. Not just one part, but ALL of it. Think of it that way and maybe it will seem more dynamic. PvP is a good place for a crash course in this concept.

every every every every every every every every every

EVERY

EVERY

EVERY

EVERY

single game with combat in all of history has a meta that develops to the point that you take the lowest amount of defenses as possible and maximise your offence. Whether this means dropping a healer, having a DPS perform as off-tank rather than a fully dedicated one, or just maintaining trinity roles but having each player do with the bare minimum of defensively attributed gear possible, it happens. In Dragon Age you have tanks, healers, DPS. People soon realised if you just stacked mages you could absolutely obliterate everything in front of you – and mages could also spec in to healing (or just use healing potions). Since their DPS was so high you didn’t need a tank to hold aggro when you could just make everything explode with incredible speed.

[/quote]

Imbagon+Monk+SF Eles

Another problem?
The game relies on repetition of content and eventually, if all that exists is repeating content, people will find the fastest way of doing it. They’re already bored of it and they don’t want it taking up more of their time than it needs to.
ArenaNet need to tighten up dungeon design, getting rid of long trudges through trash mobs in between the actual meaningful encounters.

But the main fix is AI, which is currently dumb as a post when compared to the AI in the original game. Stacking simply wouldn’t have worked in the first Guild Wars, and any party dumb enough to try it would have been wiped out in seconds.
Unfortunately I don’t think ArenaNet can fix that easily as too many other systems are derived from the way AI and balance are currently reliant on each-other.

But one thing that might help? Re-implement one of the first game’s best strategic features: body blocking. This allows for a lot more dynamic play with more satisfying tactics, and would give a reason for tough front-line fighters backed by a nukey, glassy back line. Placement of players and utilisation of terrain becomes a lot more important, immediately adding more complexity.

First off maha you missed my point entirely. The meta is the meta because it is what Anet decided it should be. If they wanted the meta to be other than what it is, they would make different choices when encountering designs.

" Kerker or gtfo… Pure damage all the time..PVT means you don’t dodge well. Etc"

Not saying I agree it should be the meta. And Not advocating for the changes I mentioned.

Secondly Tman…. this game is supposed to have a trinity.

Look it up. Damage, Control, and Support. According to Anet.

What it is Not supposed to have is purely devoted roles. No WoW Priest healer to keep your bacon out of the fire, No… Paladin Tank to focus all attention.

The problem is.. that while they may have promised the Trinity of damage, Control, and Support…. somewhere along the line they DID provide the tools for them….Just Not the NEED for them.

One reason may be that the community seems to be under the impression that they promised " No Trinity"

They never promised No trinity. Alll I Know is any time anyone suggests that maybe the other 2 legs of the Anet proposed Trinity be strengthened, someone says " hey sounds Like you want the Trinity back."

No I Just want the trinity Anet promised.

I’m pretty sure in GW1 speed clears, guilds used to just ball up all of the mobs and just burn them down.

First off maha you missed my point entirely. The meta is the meta because it is what Anet decided it should be. If they wanted the meta to be other than what it is, they would make different choices when encountering designs.

Robert Hrouda once said a long time ago I believe that if you’re unfamiliar with content you’ll want some defenses, but that (this is before offensive dps teams were even a thing) if you get good at it you can run a glass cannon spec. So yes, being able to clear content with glass cannons is intended. This is not a bad thing, it just means that as you learn the game you can perform content with less and less passive defenses and you’re not forced to take them.

The problem is.. that while they may have promised the Trinity of damage, Control, and Support…. somewhere along the line they DID provide the tools for them….Just Not the NEED for them.

Support is used when granting might, fury, aegis, protection, reflection, etc. and control is used with LoSing mobs, grouping them together, pushing them. DPS is DPS. I don’t think people realise how fully realised the anet pseudo-trinity is, it works every single time you do a dungeon.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Mortifer.2946:

Yesterday I saw some guild recruitment where it was claimed that they look for experienced dungeon/fractal runners. I consider myself such player, yet I was not accepted, because I’ve built my guardian on soldier stats and condi removing runes/traits which is very useful for the whole party, yet it lack some DPS so I was told GL BB

It is their perogative – as it is their guild – who they’d like to invite. They wanted to play with players of likeminded attitudes. To be honest, they probably did themselves as well as you a favor.

It is merely your ego that’s got you fired up because you feel someone’s taken a potshot at your “experienced” status. My suggestion is to let it go. It really is no skin off your nose if you failed to get into that guild.

However. I do have a question for you. If you Do feel that you’re quite experienced at Dungeons/Fractals, then you’d be able to do feats that most people would consider “experienced” only, yes? Like solo Lupicus in Arah. Or run full melee 49/50 fractals. Okay, now do it all in zerk gear. If you truly know how a fight works, then you ought to be able to do it in zerk gear, yes? Because if you know how each attack works, you’d be able to nullify the damage with just the perfect dodge or block. Anyone can stand in one spot and get hit while wearing tanky gear. Not everyone can complete a fight with nary a scratch on them.

Mortifer.2946:

Those zerkers are just dumb. Sorry, but they do.

Are you the quintessential PVT “tank” guardian? Because with grammar like this…

Mortifer.2946:

The most fun is when I see them play open world and some champ insta-down them. Most of them don’t even try to dodge. Thousand Blades rulezzzz, I guess.

I have a dirty secret. I rarely join “zerker only, must be meta” Arah runs. I PUG Arah, and there are times when the dice roll and you get that bowbear ranger, or the PVT or Cleric staffguard. I always make sure to be friendly. I have yet to be kicked from a PUG Arah.

The most fun is when I see Lupicus absolutely destroy them because they’ve never challenged themselves to learn their class or the fight. Most of them don’t even know when to dodge, because dodging’s never been that important to them. I do my due diligence and attempt a res if they’re right at lupi’s feet. But usually I’m soloing lupi before phase 2 ends. That is the most fun.

I usually run with pugs, and my build is something what keeps everyone alive even if someone lacks the skill. I keep explaining the tactics to everyone and my runs are very smooth, without downed or dead players. I don’t run arah too much because it is long and I need my guild group for it. Yet, I have no problems with lupicus.

Yes I don’t like you, zerkers. Because it was you, the players who destroyed the sense of cooperation in this game, not Anet. You spoilt the game system and overcome everything by doing 10000000000000000 dmg in 1 sec and learnt to dodge 2 or three times before you kill the boss.
When I started playing this game on launch, it was about helping each other, about diversity, about tactics.

Now it is about you.

Mortifer.2946:

Yes I don’t like you, zerkers. Because it was you, the players who destroyed the sense of cooperation in this game, not Anet.

I don’t judge someone because of their gear, but rather their general attitude towards others. Yours positively stinks. You might want to improve that.

Play however you want, but don’t expect people to conform to your vision of the game just because you don’t like how they play.

It was the vision of anet too, they told us that instead of DMG-Heal-Tank, we will have Dmg-Control-Support(or something like that). Eventually we have Dmg-Dmg-Dmg.

And thanks for reminding me, I should get shower and go do some duty.

There’s plenty of control and support. Using revives, reflects, blocks, evades and invulnerability is doing just that, and it’s not exclusive to using Cleric’s or Soldier’s gear.

And that’s probably the problem. Maybe some ultra skills like wall of reflection should be gated through minimum number of some specific stats + traits? There are many options how to improve it. But they won’t unless zerkers are happy and their farm works.

Anyway, gotta go. See you later. Sorry for being that negative. It just isn’t what it used to be and what I anticipated it will become (the game).

Mortifer.2946:

It was the vision of anet too, they told us that instead of DMG-Heal-Tank, we will have Dmg-Control-Support(or something like that). Eventually we have Dmg-Dmg-Dmg.

Here is a youtube playlist for all the dungeon record runs by my guild. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLz0JN2v3KJMm58s8KtMZEvMR7l6KaZQC8

If you like, pick a video and I will go through and point out every instance where Control and Support happens in a particular run. You will see that the anet trinity is very much alive, but come to the realization that you don’t understand the game mechanics enough to be aware of it.

As an aside, I don’t understand League of Legends; never played it. When I watch video it seems like bright colors and particle effects. I am 100% sure there is a ton of nuanced gameplay I have no ability to understand happening.

When you, or anyone else who doesn’t actually understand what is happening in gw2 dungeon speed runs, watches one I expect you miss 100% of the nuances as well. Here is a hint: the stuff you’re not seeing is the Support and Control.

Nerelith.7360:

If I can learn proper grammar, so can you.

I won’t comment on anything else. I probably play a wrong game. However, can you please send me a PM about the mistakes you see in that text? Aside from not using some capital letters or the abbreviated words like “dmg”. I’m quite concerned about it as I use English on my daily basis and don’t want to look dumb in front of the teachers at my university.

Tree.3916:

snip

Please, don’t underestimate me. I just don’t like that those roles can be filled by zerkers. It makes dozen stat combinations useless. – That’s what bugs me.

ANet just needs to update existing dungeons to contain mechanics that would completely decimate Full zerker teams (5 full zerker players in a party) and prevent event skipping…

Just that the content in dungeons is still all damage and HP, with very little armor or versatility…

Mortifer.2946:

Tree.3916:

snip

It makes dozen stat combinations useless. – That’s what bugs me.

Gear doesn’t determine your role or your playstyle. Gear is simply where you fall on the axis of tanky – glassy and another axis of direct damage – condition damage.

Those stat combinations are not useless, btw. For starters they all have a use in pvp and wvw at a minimum. Secondly, newer players who don’t know the bosses and don’t know how to time dodges benefit greatly from tankier gear sets, or gear sets that have high sustain. For the purposes of providing a margin of error to newer players, the wide variety of gear sets works exactly as intended.

If you’re upset that extremely experienced players who know all the encounters don’t need to wear tanky gear that’s just carebear, no offense. If you care about what’s best/optimal play whats best. If you care about an RP adventure where your character is a reflection of the story you have for him/her in your head and tanky gear is part of that… well don’t complain when that isn’t optimal for people who care about what’s best.

Tree.3916:

Mortifer.2946:

Tree.3916:

snip

It makes dozen stat combinations useless. – That’s what bugs me.

Gear doesn’t determine your role or your playstyle. Gear is simply where you fall on the axis of tanky – glassy and another axis of direct damage – condition damage.

Those stat combinations are not useless, btw. For starters they all have a use in pvp and wvw at a minimum. Secondly, newer players who don’t know the bosses and don’t know how to time dodges benefit greatly from tankier gear sets, or gear sets that have high sustain. For the purposes of providing a margin of error to newer players, the wide variety of gear sets works exactly as intended.

If you’re upset that extremely experienced players who know all the encounters don’t need to wear tanky gear that’s just carebear, no offense. If you care about what’s best/optimal play whats best. If you care about an RP adventure where your character is a reflection of the story you have for him/her in your head and tanky gear is part of that… well don’t complain when that isn’t optimal for people who care about what’s best.

False! Try to dodge and counter strong AoE! Even dodge won’t save you. As he said, most of gear sets are useless and this is sad truth.

I think PART of the problem here is in the thread title; players who are still insistent on a “role.”

That’s simply not how the game was designed. You are expected to do damage, AND provide boons, AND provide control as the situation warrants. If you aren’t doing all three, you are not maximizing your character’s potential.

Secondly, the gear you wear (regardless of its prefix), really isn’t optimal across the board. Go ahead and take your ‘zerker gear into a PvP match. You will most likely get ’rektd’, and very possibly by the condition damage over time scorned upon by the PvE community.

WvW is a LITTLE more forgiving, but even then, ’zerker gear is not optimal, and even builds without SOME points down the vit and toughness lines are more likely going to be regarded as “lunch” as opposed to this unstoppable force of nature.

The “problem” is that in PvE content, especially in the open world, you can overwhelm content with sheer numbers, and those numbers quickly make boons fairly irrelevant and generates so many stacks of Defiant that control is nigh entirely worthless. That IS a design issue, but it really is a very narrow one in what amounts to a pretty small amount of the content… but its one that a LOT of people zerg towards. It probably does need to change, somehow, though such “trains” also seem very popular, and they tend to get angry when they are changed even superficially.

In dungeons/fractals, there is one established “experienced” meta… which sad to say folks, is NOT unusual for ANY MMO. The meta is always going to be pretty narrow, and it’s not simply a matter of “changing the AI or the stats.”

If you could magically solve all the server problems with condition caps, jack up mob armor to over 9000, scale condition damage even higher, and give the mobs attacks that you need toughness to survive, the only thing that would happen is “zerker or GTFO” would become “rabid or GTFO.”

We, as players, REALLY need to stop railing against the min-maxers like they are some overwhelming force. Because they will ALWAYS exist, and if there is any way to squeeze out just a little more raw numbers in a game, the “hardcore” players (and pretenders) WILL find it, and they WILL insist on it if you are to group with them.

Whether you like it or hate it… you might as well be kittening into the wind.

chemiclord.3978:

I think PART of the problem here is in the thread title; players who are still insistent on a “role.”

That’s simply not how the game was designed. You are expected to do damage, AND provide boons, AND provide control as the situation warrants. If you aren’t doing all three, you are not maximizing your character’s potential.

Secondly, the gear you wear (regardless of its prefix), really isn’t optimal across the board. Go ahead and take your ‘zerker gear into a PvP match. You will most likely get ’rektd’, and very possibly by the condition damage over time scorned upon by the PvE community.

WvW is a LITTLE more forgiving, but even then, ’zerker gear is not optimal, and even builds without SOME points down the vit and toughness lines are more likely going to be regarded as “lunch” as opposed to this unstoppable force of nature.

The “problem” is that in PvE content, especially in the open world, you can overwhelm content with sheer numbers, and those numbers quickly make boons fairly irrelevant and generates so many stacks of Defiant that control is nigh entirely worthless. That IS a design issue, but it really is a very narrow one in what amounts to a pretty small amount of the content… but its one that a LOT of people zerg towards. It probably does need to change, somehow, though such “trains” also seem very popular, and they tend to get angry when they are changed even superficially.

In dungeons/fractals, there is one established “experienced” meta… which sad to say folks, is NOT unusual for ANY MMO. The meta is always going to be pretty narrow, and it’s not simply a matter of “changing the AI or the stats.”

If you could magically solve all the server problems with condition caps, jack up mob armor to over 9000, scale condition damage even higher, and give the mobs attacks that you need toughness to survive, the only thing that would happen is “zerker or GTFO” would become “rabid or GTFO.”

We, as players, REALLY need to stop railing against the min-maxers like they are some overwhelming force. Because they will ALWAYS exist, and if there is any way to squeeze out just a little more raw numbers in a game, the “hardcore” players (and pretenders) WILL find it, and they WILL insist on it if you are to group with them.

Whether you like it or hate it… you might as well be kittening into the wind.

I have been wrong. I’ll be the first to admit it. I have always seen the whole " zerker or gtfo!" as a weakness of gw2. But after reading many threads I have come to see what the devs Intended.

It seems to me that their intent was that while zerker gear rules In some situations… it will totally suck In others unless you are In the top 3 to 5 % of players, and can somehow survive in sPvP or WvWvW while wearing it.

As such, I think I…( speaking only for myself) may best enjoy this game if I see it as such. The same way I would not wear a Mini skirt to a formal affair, or an evening gown to a stri- I mean… dance club… I need to readjust and Understand that while In Guild wars skills were situational… it seems that in Gw2… it is the GEAR that is situational.

Gives me food for thought. Thank you for crystallizing this for me.

You do realize that groups of all zerker gear sets do have to cooperate or things can go bad quickly?

They stack, which means they have to pick a spot to stack. They like pushing things into corners, most rooms have more than one corner so a corner has to be picked. Not everyone needs to be the might stacker so someone may have to make some adjustments to better suit the group…

Someone goes down because they don’t watch their health bar or didn’t catch the attack animation in time to dodge or put up a skill, there goes 1/5 of the DPS. 2/5 while he’s being rezzed and he has a higher chance of being killed due to aggro mechanics. Not to mention the person rezzing does as well since they can’t heal or dodge or use a blocking skill while rezzing. And if it was a skill he forgot to pull up, it could be more than one person having gone down if it was a spell that would affect the group.

Zerkers are glass cannons typically. Meaning they hit hard, but they aren’t that great at taking hits. Meaning if they aren’t careful, they’re dead. Especially if they are a squishier class like the Elementalist.

So to claim that zerker killed cooperation is just silly.

Serbianwolf.1652:

Tree.3916:

Mortifer.2946:

Tree.3916:

snip

It makes dozen stat combinations useless. – That’s what bugs me.

Gear doesn’t determine your role or your playstyle. Gear is simply where you fall on the axis of tanky – glassy and another axis of direct damage – condition damage.

Those stat combinations are not useless, btw. For starters they all have a use in pvp and wvw at a minimum. Secondly, newer players who don’t know the bosses and don’t know how to time dodges benefit greatly from tankier gear sets, or gear sets that have high sustain. For the purposes of providing a margin of error to newer players, the wide variety of gear sets works exactly as intended.

If you’re upset that extremely experienced players who know all the encounters don’t need to wear tanky gear that’s just carebear, no offense. If you care about what’s best/optimal play whats best. If you care about an RP adventure where your character is a reflection of the story you have for him/her in your head and tanky gear is part of that… well don’t complain when that isn’t optimal for people who care about what’s best.

False! Try to dodge and counter strong AoE! Even dodge won’t save you. As he said, most of gear sets are useless and this is sad truth.

What are you talking about? Dodging works for “strong aoe” too. And I spent a good portion of my post explaining how the gearsets aren’t useless at all, so if you have a response to that please making it factual rather than repeating a discredited statement with italics as if that makes it less discredited.