Guild Wars 2

I was quite happy with the recent Mai Trin “bug” – the one that made here 3-4 hit you.
My party was doing rather poorly keeping themselves alive and free of conditions, so I rerolled with my Cleric WvW Shout Build. It was nice to see that I was actually useful for a change running a Heal build – helping my team by healing them and keeping them alive.
Unfortunately they fixed her and it’s now another face roll boss.

If you don’t know the common knowledge tactics and are trying to complete a dungeon as a challenge then all builds are fine. They all work. Finding groups of players who just want the challenge is rare though, very rare. Most players are running dungeons for loot nowadays and they want to do it as quickly as possible. They are also using very well honed tactics shared by the player base across a very large number of dungeon runs. The tactics are good enough for dps builds to survive, therefore players use dps builds.

So should dungeons be designed so that the best players with the best tactics struggle and have to use very defensive builds? Where would that leave new players with no tactics and home made builds? Dead presumably. I think there has to be some acceptance that repeat content will be run with high dps. That doesn’t mean that some technical changes couldn’t be made to make skills more useful than pure dps. Corners and walls work better than skills for controlling enemies at the moment so that’s one possible area for improvement.

Tree.3916:

Serbianwolf.1652:

Tree.3916:

Mortifer.2946:

Tree.3916:

snip

It makes dozen stat combinations useless. – That’s what bugs me.

Gear doesn’t determine your role or your playstyle. Gear is simply where you fall on the axis of tanky – glassy and another axis of direct damage – condition damage.

Those stat combinations are not useless, btw. For starters they all have a use in pvp and wvw at a minimum. Secondly, newer players who don’t know the bosses and don’t know how to time dodges benefit greatly from tankier gear sets, or gear sets that have high sustain. For the purposes of providing a margin of error to newer players, the wide variety of gear sets works exactly as intended.

If you’re upset that extremely experienced players who know all the encounters don’t need to wear tanky gear that’s just carebear, no offense. If you care about what’s best/optimal play whats best. If you care about an RP adventure where your character is a reflection of the story you have for him/her in your head and tanky gear is part of that… well don’t complain when that isn’t optimal for people who care about what’s best.

False! Try to dodge and counter strong AoE! Even dodge won’t save you. As he said, most of gear sets are useless and this is sad truth.

What are you talking about? Dodging works for “strong aoe” too. And I spent a good portion of my post explaining how the gearsets aren’t useless at all, so if you have a response to that please making it factual rather than repeating a discredited statement with italics as if that makes it less discredited.

Hey..I have been on the internet forums Long enough to see How it works…

italics and bold type means it’s TRUE, because it’s Bold and italisized !!!

If you don’t want to do the meta then make your own party. Its very simple and I guarantee you will find other players that don’t care about the meta and will join first group they see. Now if you want into the meta group because you want to speed run but you aren’t willing to bring a character built for the meta then you need to go take a hike. You are then basically one of those elitist but are expecting them to do something that you are not willing to do, take a non-meta build character along. If that’s what you really want, then you need to make your own party. I have seen tons of guys put lfms like that.

tldr

If you don’t want to join the meta, then make your own group.

Wethospu.6437:

And here we go.

The usual “very tolerant” and “open-minded” casual player group calling other people dumb and toxic.

Uhhh I don’t think it’s just one group or type of players calling another group or type of players dumb and toxic. Seems like everybody likes slinging mud at everybody else in these forums.

I’m just here because I want the old trait system back :/

tofumon.5924:

Wethospu.6437:

And here we go.

The usual “very tolerant” and “open-minded” casual player group calling other people dumb and toxic.

Uhhh I don’t think it’s just one group or type of players calling another group or type of players dumb and toxic. Seems like everybody likes slinging mud at everybody else in these forums.

I’m just here because I want the old trait system back :/

Let’s sling some mud at anet then!

Wethospu.6437:

tofumon.5924:

Wethospu.6437:

And here we go.

The usual “very tolerant” and “open-minded” casual player group calling other people dumb and toxic.

Uhhh I don’t think it’s just one group or type of players calling another group or type of players dumb and toxic. Seems like everybody likes slinging mud at everybody else in these forums.

I’m just here because I want the old trait system back :/

Let’s sling some mud at anet then!

They still haven’t said anything after 35 pages in the trait update thread T_T

Mortifer.2946:

I usually run with pugs, and my build is something what keeps everyone alive even if someone lacks the skill. I keep explaining the tactics to everyone and my runs are very smooth, without downed or dead players. I don’t run arah too much because it is long and I need my guild group for it. Yet, I have no problems with lupicus.

I and many other player who happen to use Berserker gear take the time to explain strategies when doing certain dungeon runs. Though I’ve always been very cautious about this, as many people can potentially take it as “that person is super bossy”. If anything, I’ll usually ask if anyone is new or wants the tactics explained, or I’ll even ask, “how would you guys like to do this fight?”

But I would like to make an honest suggestion. If you feel you’re a really experienced player, go and PUG Arah. I do know of a charr guardian in PVT that takes newbies through Arah here in NA, so it’s certainly possible to carry people through it. If you’re taking newbies through Arah, don’t think that your PVT will save them every single second through, and especially not on Lupi.

Mortifer.2946:

IYes I don’t like you, zerkers. Because it was you, the players who destroyed the sense of cooperation in this game, not Anet. You spoilt the game system and overcome everything by doing 10000000000000000 dmg in 1 sec and learnt to dodge 2 or three times before you kill the boss.
When I started playing this game on launch, it was about helping each other, about diversity, about tactics.

Now it is about you.

No. The blame lies with each and every single person who fails to live and let live, regardless of gear type worn. For every person who has failed to write an adequate lfg comment, for every person who has failed to respect another person’s lfg comment and joined regardless of the requirement.

Anyone who thinks DPS is the only important thing needs to ask why guardian and thief aren’t down at the bottom of the barrel along with necromancers.

I remember when the aetherblade dungeon come out. There is a bunch of complain thread about berserker got 1 shotted by Mai Trin.

Unless Anet makes it “impossible” to complete dungeons with a full zerker group. I suppose the answer is no, zerker will always be the best gear set. And if you die with wearing zerker, people will just tell you to stop kittening.

People need to accept that this is as the developers Intended. I find it hard to believe that the devs do NOT want zerker gear to be the best. If they didn’t I am certain that in 2 years, they would have done something more than the ferocity patch.

So since I don’t think they are incompetent, or unable to present us with the game they wish us to play…. the only thing I can surmise is, that this is what the devs intended.

We need to adapt… or… seek out Non-meta groups.. But choosing to wear anything BUT zerker, then seeking speed-clear groups… is an exercise in futility.

We are free to wear PVT gear, and speed-clear groups are free to not give any of us a shot… and kick us… until Anet changes the Kick mechanic.

If they make it possible for groups to say " wait, you’re wearing PVT?" then rapidly kick us..that is their prerogative.

We can adapt… seek like-minded groups…or.. Look for content elsewhere.

I’d say any time wasted by a PVT is well made up by the fact that you don’t have to put in any effort whatsoever to survive anything. I think all the videos of a full cleric water ele facetanking dungeon bosses solo with just auto-attack healing are sufficient proof of that.

If you can join dungeon groups and get loads of free rewards for literally afking and occasionally tabbing over to move your character every few minutes, I’d say it’s worth the tradeoff of being caught doing it once in a while and kicked.

A lot of you are missing the point in this thread.

Sure, people can wear whatever stats they want, but it’s not going to be efficient, and it’s going to waste people’s time.

And that’s the real problem here. People value their time. They want the most efficient group that will clear dungeons fast. They do not want a group member that will be a hinderance to the overall dungeon run.

It’s easy to say, “then just find another group”, but the reality is, that you’ll be in the minority of most meta-dungeon runners. You will be the person that isn’t contributing to the group efficiently, because you want to be stubborn, or out of ignorance, and use sub-optimal gear, traits, and builds.

I’ll use an example from WoW (since most people are familiar with it).

Let’s say a Paladin specs into the DPS role Retribution, a Druid in a Feral dps spec, and 3 other DPS classes. Would you ever run with this group into a heroic dungeon? The answer is no. There wouldn’t be a tank or a healer. Sure, this group could eventually complete the dungeon if they were good at their classes, but it would be slower, and less efficient. The druid would have to use sub-par healing skills, to keep people alive, and then his DPS feral spec would’ve been utterly useless to bring in the first place. This is what some of you arguing for. It’s silly. No sane group would want you.

This is the same with GW2. Why bring other roles, when it’s not needed? The encounters aren’t designed with them in mind. The encounters become standard for stacking and zerging, with condition caps, whether it was intentional or not. Most devastating encounters can also be avoided by dodging, which in effect, makes other roles, that can block and shield the group, pretty much useless.

If you’re not doing DPS, inexperienced at your class, and not being self-reliant on your survival.. then you’re not contributing to the group that wants to finish the dungeon for the 100th run.

If the encounters actually needed support roles, then they would be just as desired as DPS roles, but they don’t. DPS is the desired, and preferred, role.

nexxe.7081:

A lot of you are missing the point in this thread.

Sure, people can wear whatever stats they want, but it’s not going to be efficient, and it’s going to waste people’s time.

And that’s the real problem here. People value their time. They want the most efficient group that will clear dungeons fast. They do not want a group member that will be a hinderance to the overall dungeon run.

It’s easy to say, “then just find another group”, but the reality is, that you’ll be in the minority of most meta-dungeon runners. You will be the person that isn’t contributing to the group efficiently, because you want to be stubborn, or out of ignorance, and use sub-optimal gear, traits, and builds.

I’ll use an example from WoW (since most people are familiar with it).

Let’s say a Paladin specs into the DPS role Retribution, a Druid in a Feral dps spec, and 3 other DPS classes. Would you ever run with this group into a heroic dungeon? The answer is no. There wouldn’t be a tank or a healer. Sure, this group could eventually complete the dungeon if they were good at their classes, but it would be slower, and less efficient. The druid would have to use sub-par healing skills, to keep people alive, and then his DPS feral spec would’ve been utterly useless to bring in the first place. This is what some of you arguing for. It’s silly. No sane group would want you.

This is the same with GW2. Why bring other roles, when it’s not needed? The encounters aren’t designed with them in mind. The encounters become standard for stacking and zerging, with condition caps, whether it was intentional or not. Most devastating encounters can also be avoided by dodging, which in effect, makes other roles, that can block and shield the group, pretty much useless.

If you’re not doing DPS, inexperienced at your class, and not being self-reliant on your survival.. then you’re not contributing to the group that wants to finish the dungeon for the 100th run.

If the encounters actually needed support roles, then they would be just as desired as DPS roles, but they don’t. DPS is the desired, and preferred, role.

This is what Gw2 is. Whether it is what the devs intended when the game launched or not. This is what it is Now.

I for one think that it could and should be less this, and More diverse. I would Like to see less reliance on dps and More support, and control… but….

Albert Einstein defined Insanity, as " doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results."

People have complained for 2 years…I along with them.

I think after 2 years…..either Anet is not paying attention, or…. their Numbers tell them that we are in the minority, and most players are happy with the meta…

I think that to have more diverse builds…. as enjoyable as it might be, and as much a benefit as it might be to the community, and improvement to the game…. It is highly unlikely it will happen.

It would take a re-envisioning of mob encounters and a real upgrade to mob AI, I sincerely doubt they will Invest In this, just to please a few highly vocal players.

Personally…I think there is as mucha chance of us seeing speed Boost mounts On the game, as there is of us seeing more Build diversity.

The game is what it is. We can play it and enjoy it, or not play it. But this late in the game..change it??? better chance of riding flying dragons .

The issue starts with how ANet designed the classes. Every class for itself is a one man army.
You have heal? Check
You have damage? Check
You have CC? Check
All of this in one class. If people remember back, GW1 was exactly the opposite. Beside of highly specialised farm and SC builds, you needed heroes, henchies or other people to heal you, to do the damage, to do the CC. You were not able to put everything in one bar and succeed solo’ing the world. ANet did a 180° turn in this game design and decided everyone should have everything on its bar.
What exactly is now killing other roles than pur damage (or let us call it berserker stats) in PvE?
Condition centric -> It works on its own, a lot of solo dungeon runner showed that conditions, if you are alone (!!!) can actually reach the same dps than direct damage builds. The problem in groups: You are not alone. You will compete with others about your condition stacks and in the end your dps is a lot less. Another problem is, that direct damage is directly there, condition damage needs some time to do its effect. If you have 4 other players bursting down stuff so fast, your conditions will not have the time to tick. Another HUGE problem with conditions are the objects. How often you need to kill something considered an object? Conditions suck badly at this.
Trying to boost up your “support” via stats -> Healing Power scales purely in most cases, the provided healing will not be enough to save the people who will not dodge the 1HKOs. Blinds, reflects, aegis, cc is the way to go. Is any of this depended of what stats your wear? Nope. Boon duration is a really useful stat, but comes from runes, traits, so why take another stat combination over it?
PVT, Knights, Celestial gives your a bigger error margin (you will not die directly, if you miss a dodge), but the losses on the damage side are huge. So most people will argue: “learn to dodge, and kill faster!!!” or “go zerk, or go home!” Are they right about it? Honestly yes…

And my two cents to this awful stack and skip discussion:
People stack because they want to melee, because melee is biggest damage. Another point is that buffs have a limited range, so the nearer everybody sticks together, the better. Los is just a nice method to put ranged and melee enemies on one place to burst them down. People skip, because trash does not drop anything useful and is just a pain in the kitten . Why bother with trash?

The old trinity system don’t exist! So, yea, non-dps roles will never be effective.

Nerelith.7360:

I for one think that it could and should be less this, and More diverse. I would Like to see less reliance on dps and More support, and control… but….

Support, control and dps are not mutually exclusive in this game. I dont think any of you understand what you are asking for. You are basically asking for harder content. Content which requires a bit more planning and awareness. Content which makes you take cleanses and use interrupts. We already do this in many encounters to increase efficiency. And heres the kicker. We use this support and control on classes that are in berserker gear and have mostly dps orientated traits. This is because your stats have no impact on cleanses, utility and cc. And thats a good thing.

So you want harder content that forces players to think about control and support more? Sure, Id like that aswell. But then ive seen people complain about the difficulty of some really easy new encounters in the LS. So are you sure you want harder content? Those of us who understand the game will continue to support and control in dps gear and most of you will carry on complaining that theres no support or control or that the new encounters are too hard.

Making stuff require control and support wont stop the berserker meta. Deal with it.

Nerelith.7360:

The big problem is, that the game rewards certain builds..Mostly DPS, while punishing others…Things like Damage over time builds.

how does the game reward DPS and punish anything else? thats nothing more then player perception. You can push through any dungeon even with 5 Necros I have no doubt about it. There is no punishment going on anywhere.

Nerelith.7360:

Why would any group take a necro into a dungeon?

Anet gave us necros, Now you can say " you can be free to play a necromancer" and fact is, I play a necromancer, but Only because I like to play either solo, or duo with my wife. But is it the community’s fault that zerker groups will not take a necromancer into a dungeon if any other prefered class is available?
My point is that you are 100 % right.

Ultimately yes. my main is a necro and I did plenty of dungeons never had an issue.

Nerelith.7360:

You are free to play any way you wish with any tools you wish. But if the tools you choose are considered sub-optimal by the rest of the community don’t blame the community for kicking you.

Then who do you blame? There will always be optimal and sub-optimal. Its true in every game. In games that force the trinity do you think a healer is more optimal then a dps?, the dps is still optimal but the game forces the existence of healers by removing survivability tools off dps. 3 dps a tank and a healer is still sub-optimal but just cause they’re forced at gun point people are entirely happy with the setup. Now comes a game which doesnt press a gun to anyone’s head and suddenly only optimal is allowed. Since when is not being restrictive a design flaw?

Nerelith.7360:

If Anet makes Damage over time, less preferable, you are perfectly free to specc as damage over time, to wear vitality or toughness gear…to specc heals, and tanks…

snip..

the community is free not to carry me? carry me? do you think a necro cannot pull his own weight? cause I assure you plenty of times when actually my necro was the last man standing. For a statement such as the community is free not to carry you dungeons would need to be balanced around maximum dps and they most certainly arent. 5 necros can complete a dungeon just fine.

Nerelith.7360:

let’s try a mind experiment. Imagine that Anet introduced two changes. Not saying I want these changes, but let’s introduce a few changs to encounters, and see what the " community" decides.

make it so Bosses are weak to damage over time effects but have MORE armor so that direct damage is less effective and… improve AI, so that they do not stack. Also…add a few More healers that are smart enough to not rush into the front line, Instead stay behind healing everyone else.

Suddenly…. damage over time becomes something to consider. Suddenly… pure DPS builds become less prefered.

It may be an interesting experiment but i bet it will not change anything because this is mostly a perception issue.

Nerelith.7360:

You can’t let anet off the hook, the reason that Pure DPS is the meta is because that is how Anet designed the game.

I disagree… DPS is the natural ideal state and to deviate from that you need artificial barriers that force you to choose an alternative state which is bad.

Nerelith.7360:

Fact..Most Power players Live in a skinner box. They will chase after an " optimum build" but what makes a build Optimum? it is best able to face the encounters the developer designs….

Who decides how Mobs act and react? The developer. So…who decides what is meta? Not the community….. the developer.

Its not about mobs actions and reactions at all.
Do mobs not inflict conditions? so why are condition cleansing builds useless?
Do mobs not inflict damage? then why is healing useless?
Do mobs not fall into melee range to attack? then why is crowd control useless?

Like I said its about not putting up barriers.
Conditions arent something only a healer can deal with.
Damage isnt something only a healer can heal.
Some progressions and some roles do it better but thats about it.
The way is see it is this isnt that different from zerging.

Zerging is technically the most optimal way to play. Makes encounters easy and gives you the fastest kill. But this is a game not a job, having fun should be more important then making the most gold in the least amount of time possible.

Nerelith.7360:

The best tank, and heal tools in the game mean nothing, if encounters can be DPS’d.

Zerker or gtfo is the meta because Anet decided it was the meta by designing encounters as they are designed.

or because players value rewards over fun

Nerelith.7360:

I need to readjust and Understand that while In Guild wars skills were situational… it seems that in Gw2… it is the GEAR that is situational.

Gives me food for thought. Thank you for crystallizing this for me.

In my personal view, the game is even more open than that. You choose a focus role say you want to play Support the most.. that dictates your gear choice but doesnt limit anything else. You still play any of the other roles.. Damage, Control, Support (btw small correction, Damage control support wasnt meant to be a trinity in the regular sense that you only get to do one, each profession gets to do all of them at the same time) You’re just stronger in one aspect you choose nothing else. Everything else remains entirely situation.

Nerelith.7360:

People need to accept that this is as the developers Intended. I find it hard to believe that the devs do NOT want zerker gear to be the best. If they didn’t I am certain that in 2 years, they would have done something more than the ferocity patch.

So since I don’t think they are incompetent, or unable to present us with the game they wish us to play…. the only thing I can surmise is, that this is what the devs intended.

We need to adapt… or… seek out Non-meta groups.. But choosing to wear anything BUT zerker, then seeking speed-clear groups… is an exercise in futility.

We are free to wear PVT gear, and speed-clear groups are free to not give any of us a shot… and kick us… until Anet changes the Kick mechanic.

If they make it possible for groups to say " wait, you’re wearing PVT?" then rapidly kick us..that is their prerogative.

We can adapt… seek like-minded groups…or.. Look for content elsewhere.

zerker gear being the “best” is a side effect of what Arenanet want not the reason. What Arenanet did is give total freedom of choice. In any fight at the end of the day what you want is to kill your objective as quickly as possible. Thats achieved through the highest DPS possible. The problem is your target wants to kill you too which means you need to survive. In an environment where you can only be 5 people and if everyone one of those 5 people can keep themselves and others alive while also be that which deals the highest DPS thats what you’re going to have.

you made a suggestion where say bosses can have so much armor that DOT is more effective. That wouldnt solve anything only the DOT build would be the highest DPS… highest DPS build will still be what gets chosen each and every time by those who want to get as many rewards as possible as quickly as possible. Its a side effect for a design that stresses freedom of choice nothing more nothing less.

So i guess you dont play Spvp…………… where non-dps centric roles can be very effective. nothing more annoying than a tank that won’t die on a cap point.

PvE is easy mode, come and play TPvP where there is actual difficulty.

Nerelith.7360:

This is what Gw2 is. Whether it is what the devs intended when the game launched or not. This is what it is Now.

I for one think that it could and should be less this, and More diverse. I would Like to see less reliance on dps and More support, and control… but….

Albert Einstein defined Insanity, as " doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results."

People have complained for 2 years…I along with them.

I think after 2 years…..either Anet is not paying attention, or…. their Numbers tell them that we are in the minority, and most players are happy with the meta…

I think that to have more diverse builds…. as enjoyable as it might be, and as much a benefit as it might be to the community, and improvement to the game…. It is highly unlikely it will happen.

It would take a re-envisioning of mob encounters and a real upgrade to mob AI, I sincerely doubt they will Invest In this, just to please a few highly vocal players.

Personally…I think there is as mucha chance of us seeing speed Boost mounts On the game, as there is of us seeing more Build diversity.

The game is what it is. We can play it and enjoy it, or not play it. But this late in the game..change it??? better chance of riding flying dragons .

It is not that simple. Lets imagine you want to make support mandatory in a group.
That in itself is already a problem when one of the core promises is you’re never forced in a role you dont want to be in. but lets overlook that.

Lets say you do good mobs with awesome AI that has some mobs immobilizing you while other mobs open some sort of lava pit under you that does massive damage. Good start but not enough You can still have an all zerker dps group that include some condition removal skills able to deal with that. They can interrupt the casting of one or the other. They can dodge. They can heal one another. They can res one another when this attack downs one of them. etc… etc… So what would be required to achieve this?

The only “solution” is to do what other games do… if you DPS you cannot heal, dodge, remove conditions etc.. what solution would that be? remove all the flexibility I currently have so that I am forced to play a role I can play freely as is? No thanks. people who want to play full DPS should be allowed to play full DPS if thats what they enjoy. I enjoy flexibility so I play a Necro. The cure to this “issue” is much worst then the “decease!”

Let me argue this from a different angle. You played Gw1 and enjoyed coming out with your own builds. Why did you do that when the most optimal builds can be found on various websites ? Answer is cause optimal is not everything. Tons of people went with optimal sure. Some players refused to play with those who didnt go optimal sure but did that warrant changing the game? Luckly no! Did that means the devs never meant people have any other skills that the ones are the community decided are meta? No… devs wanted the flexibility. The meta is just a side effect of that flexibility. Same thing here. If you’re happy with playing meta.. go ahead play meta. If you’re happier doing your own thing. Do your own thing. This isnt kitten vs them!

Nerelith.7360:

….
No I Just want the trinity Anet promised.

….I don’t recall this “promise”….please provide references.

As mentioned above, EVERY player is the source of Damage, Healing & Support/Control.

The only “enforced meta” is in Dungeon speed runs or Fractals. That is a small segment of the game so either learn to cope with the community “issues” or play another aspect of the game.

Being the “last man standing” on your non-DPS spec is nothing to brag about, it means you made a spec to do something other than DPS (i.e. tank, heal, CC, etc.) and FAILED because your party is now dead.

“My healer build was so amazing my entire party wiped” is basically what I see people saying whenenver they say “last man standing”.

The game’s trinity is support-damage-control, not healer-damage-tank. Support and damage are prevalent in pve, though control not so much. And no, support does not mean “healing”, which is only one tiny fraction of what it means to “support”.

Again, most of you missed the point.

I’ll keep it short this time and perhaps there is some hope, that some of you will understand.

-DPS-zerker is desired, but not required.
-One role is superior. The others are inferior.

When you have one role desired over everything else, then you must admit it’s a problem.

Others have pointed it out: all members of the party are expected to DPS, all are expected to control and all are expected to support. How each profession goes about those things, some being better at aspects than others, do vary. But they are all there in pve.

DPS
Thief – Extremely high single target DPS, medium aoe dps
Ranger – High single target, low aoe DPS
Engineer – High AOE and single target dps supplimented by strong condition damage
Elementalist – Extremely high single target and aoe damage increased further with OP conjured weapons
Guardian – Medium single target DPS, high aoe DPS
Mesmer – Low AOE dps, extremely high single target dps
Necromancer – Low AOE dps, high single target dps supplimented by moderate condition damage
Warrior – High single target DPS and high aoe DPS

Support
Thief – Stealth, projectile absorbtion
Ranger – Extremely high offensive buffing capabilities, condition removal
Engineer – Moderate Might stacking, healing, condition removal, massive enemy debuff ability (Vulnerability)
Elementalist – Extremely high offensive buffing capabilities: conjures, Might, Fury. Moderate healing
Guardian – Extremely strong defensive buffs: Stability, condition removal, projectile defense
Mesmer – Extremely strong condition removal and projectile defense. Limited stealth and stability.
Necromancer – Moderate condition removal, strong debuffing: vulnerability stacks (note: necromancer isn’t part of the meta because this section and the next are so limited)
Warrior: Extremely strong offensive buffs: banners, Might, Fury, Empower allies. Strong debuffing: vulnerability stacks.

Control
Thief: Perma-Blinds, spammable on demand CC (headshot)
Ranger – Perma-Immobilize, cripple
Engineer – Moderate blinds, cripple, immobilize, CC, chill
Elementalist – moderate blinds and immobilize, low access to Chill
Guardian – moderate blinds, strong grouping CC, Wards
Mesmer – Extremely high CC ability, strong group CC,
Necromancer – moderate blinds
warrior: Low CC ability with dps utility skills, can swap to high control setup with utilities

If your argument is that these things don’t matter, my guess is that you probably don’t pay enough attention to what’s actually happening in the dungeons/fractals you do OR your dungeons and fractal runs are extremely poor in quality since you DONT utilize the proper support/control roles from your party.

nexxe.7081:

Again, most of you missed the point.

I’ll keep it short this time and perhaps there is some hope, that some of you will understand.

-DPS-zerker is desired, but not required.
-One role is superior. The others are inferior.

When you have one role desired over everything else, then you must admit it’s a problem.

Or, you have players playing whatever role is required, when it is required, irrespective of gear. Gear =/= role. Damage is what everyone does. So what?

IndigoSundown.5419:

nexxe.7081:

Again, most of you missed the point.

I’ll keep it short this time and perhaps there is some hope, that some of you will understand.

-DPS-zerker is desired, but not required.
-One role is superior. The others are inferior.

When you have one role desired over everything else, then you must admit it’s a problem.

Or, you have players playing whatever role is required, when it is required, irrespective of gear. Gear =/= role. Damage is what everyone does. So what?

That’s where you’re wrong. Other roles aren’t needed, or required. Players are required to be self-sufficient, and aren’t required to rely on others’ support, except for reviving, and even then, it’s the players fault for going down in the first place.

Gear plays a huge part for roles. Why would a player use Rabid or Celestial gear, when it’s not required? Damage is the preferred style, making it worse than a Trinity MMO. At least in a Trinity MMO, you can be 3 roles.

Anyone in non-zerker gear is inferior. If you want to run a dungeon in Celestial or Rabid gear, you’re just making the team less efficient.

Tree.3916:

Control

Necromancer – moderate blinds, cripple and immobilise, moderate single target CC, high access to Chill

FTFY

Berserker gear and builds are not required. They are simply what allows for the fastest clearing of most PvE content.

If you line up a bunch of different builds that excel at different things, then there is no “this is the BEST build.” There are builds that are better for different things.

In dungeons where a fairly one-dimensional AI is behind every enemy we face, certain builds become more useful, more optimal. Bosses often telegraph their hardest-hitting attacks. Now, for these fights you have two main options. You can trait and gear in vitality and toughness and take the hit. Or alternatively, you can wait until the telegraphed move starts and then hit the aegis key, or the dodge key. Since the second option has found a way to avoid the largest hits without treating or gearing for it, they are free to use builds to maximise damage instead.

This is not necessarily true in other game modes, such as PvP. In PvP there is no one-dimensional AI, but rather a team of very active players trying their best to down you as fast as possible. Here once again DPS builds are viable, but not necessarily always optimal. Many good PvP teams will include a bunker, or a decapper, or a control specialist. And every avid PvP player knows how powerful condition builds have become recently.

Here’s an example that’s not Guild Wars. Ever played the Pokemon games for the GBA or NDS? One very strong “build” for a party member is a so-called “toxic staller,” which essentially does damage over time while keeping up constant blocks and heals. It’s typically very powerful. It’s also a massive pain to play with outside of PvP. Why? Because it’s slow, and because such a defensive control build is not necessary for the PvE gameplay. In the open world and in boss fights, more damage is the way to go.

The common complaint here is that not all builds have the same usefulness in all areas of the game. Tanks, healers and damage over time builds are all viable in dungeons. Some people play them for fun, some people use them to compensate for a lack of skill or a lack of interest in active defensive gameplay. But taking into consideration all of the factors that make dungeons what they are, a straight DPS build is most certainly the best in dungeons.

This has been said, but I’ll repeat it anyway. If Anet implemented some massive changes to the game such as boosting enemy armour, giving them unblockable melee attacks, and improving AI, then perhaps straight DPS would no longer be optimal. Perhaps the number of “avoids” each player gets through dodges, blocks and blinds would no longer be enough to keep them alive. In this case, the meta might shift to ranged condition builds, the exact opposite of what it is now.

In that case, the only difference would be that ranged condition builds would have become the most efficient way to clear dungeons. Simply take all the current content that advocates “zerker” and replace it with “condi” instead. LFG speed run groups would become “80s condi 5k ap ping gear” and straight DPS builds would be kicked.

You can change the meta. But there will always be a meta because there will always be a most efficient way to clear dungeons.

Tree.3916:

Others have pointed it out: all members of the party are expected to DPS, all are expected to control and all are expected to support. How each profession goes about those things, some being better at aspects than others, do vary. But they are all there in pve.

DPS
Thief – Extremely high single target DPS, medium aoe dps
Ranger – High single target, low aoe DPS
Engineer – High AOE and single target dps supplimented by strong condition damage
Elementalist – Extremely high single target and aoe damage increased further with OP conjured weapons
Guardian – Medium single target DPS, high aoe DPS
Mesmer – Low AOE dps, extremely high single target dps
Necromancer – Low AOE dps, high single target dps supplimented by moderate condition damage
Warrior – High single target DPS and high aoe DPS

Support
Thief – Stealth, projectile absorbtion
Ranger – Extremely high offensive buffing capabilities, condition removal
Engineer – Moderate Might stacking, healing, condition removal, massive enemy debuff ability (Vulnerability)
Elementalist – Extremely high offensive buffing capabilities: conjures, Might, Fury. Moderate healing
Guardian – Extremely strong defensive buffs: Stability, condition removal, projectile defense
Mesmer – Extremely strong condition removal and projectile defense. Limited stealth and stability.
Necromancer – Moderate condition removal, strong debuffing: vulnerability stacks (note: necromancer isn’t part of the meta because this section and the next are so limited)
Warrior: Extremely strong offensive buffs: banners, Might, Fury, Empower allies. Strong debuffing: vulnerability stacks.

Control
Thief: Perma-Blinds, spammable on demand CC (headshot)
Ranger – Perma-Immobilize, cripple
Engineer – Moderate blinds, cripple, immobilize, CC, chill
Elementalist – moderate blinds and immobilize, low access to Chill
Guardian – moderate blinds, strong grouping CC, Wards
Mesmer – Extremely high CC ability, strong group CC,
Necromancer – moderate blinds
warrior: Low CC ability with dps utility skills, can swap to high control setup with utilities

If your argument is that these things don’t matter, my guess is that you probably don’t pay enough attention to what’s actually happening in the dungeons/fractals you do OR your dungeons and fractal runs are extremely poor in quality since you DONT utilize the proper support/control roles from your party.

Yes, they matter, but they are negligible in the overall scheme of things.
You don’t need to build your traits or gear around those support skills, because of the limits of condition caps, defiance, and unshakable. Damage roles, with damage traits, gear, and skills are superior, because you can just burn down enemies in a corner, without worrying too much about building a needed support role.

In PvE, it does not matter one bit what gear you are using, everything so easy, you can literally pick whatever you want and still win (Now specs do matter to an extent, but only if you are doing high lvl fracs…rest of PvE including low lvl fracs/dungs/bosses, you can spec whatever, its pretty freaking easy)

All these different gear choices are basically there for sPvP/WvW… where you can diversify your builds and specs towards condi/power/tanky etc etc.

But PvE? lol who cares about other roles in PvE? theres literally no roles, just attack and dodge, time your reflect/block for big attacks and watch out for red circles… you will eventually win, its that easy and you can do it any gear/spec. Now if you care about being effecient sure, zerk it up, but you can still complete any of this easy PvE content in any gear….

nexxe.7081:

Yes, they matter, but they are negligible in the overall scheme of things.
You don’t need to build your traits or gear around those support skills, because of the limits of condition caps, defiance, and unshakable. Damage roles, with damage traits, gear, and skills are superior, because you can just burn down enemies in a corner, without worrying too much about building a needed support role.

No, you are completely wrong about that. Without reflects, blinds, aegis, stability, etc… you aren’t able to do that damage because you get one shot, interrupted, ect… . It’s why Guardians are so popular in dungeons and especially in fractals.

If what you said was true, then everyone would be bringing necromancers without thinking twice. Necromancers bring excellent damage, but they bring nearly no group support. Thus they are far less in demand.

Rangersix.1754:

nexxe.7081:

Yes, they matter, but they are negligible in the overall scheme of things.
You don’t need to build your traits or gear around those support skills, because of the limits of condition caps, defiance, and unshakable. Damage roles, with damage traits, gear, and skills are superior, because you can just burn down enemies in a corner, without worrying too much about building a needed support role.

No, you are completely wrong about that. Without reflects, blinds, aegis, stability, etc… you aren’t able to do that damage because you get one shot, interrupted, ect… . It’s why Guardians are so popular in dungeons and especially in fractals.

If what you said was true, then everyone would be bringing necromancers without thinking twice. Necromancers bring excellent damage, but they bring nearly no group support. Thus they are far less in demand.

And those reflects blinds aegis and stability come mostly passive for guardians, a support specced guardian is still useless.

A support specced Guardian deals damage. I think you’re confusing a healing oriented Guardian with support.

Support =/= Healing.
Healing → one of many forms of support.
Most forms of support → not influenced by gear.

As a guardian,

My wall of reflection is just as reflectiony no matter what gear I wear.
My purging flames removes the same number of conditions from myself and my allies no matter what gear I wear.
My virtue of justice blinds the same number of mobs no matter what gear I wear.
My virtue of courage provides the same amount of blocks through aegis no matter what gear I wear.
My shout retreat provides the same number of blocks no matter what gear I wear.
My sanctuary provides the same amount of relief no matter what gear I wear.

No matter what gear I wear.

As I learn the various tells and mechanics of various encounters I am able to dodge effectively. No matter what gear I wear. Aside from sigil of energy but I could put that on any particular stat weapon.

So I have learned as a result of using my skills at appropriate times, along with my virtues and dodges, I get hit less. Getting hit less means less need for toughness or vitality. Wearing gear with stats that I don’t need is the same as being naked.

My survivability is not dependent on my gear choice. I learned to separate my gear from my build.

I choose to wear berzerker gear because I am able.

Slotting reflection and aegis utilities doesnt require any investment, you still go max dps.

Rangersix.1754:

A support specced Guardian deals damage. I think you’re confusing a healing oriented Guardian with support. Support =/= Healing. Healing = one of many forms of support.

Guardians are already support , that’s their inherent property….
I’ve been with PLENTY of full DPS guards in high lvl fracs dude… saying support guardian is redundant lol…they naturally have enough support, theres no need to excessively spec even further into support unless you are just bad at the game

SkiTz.4590:

Guardians are already support , that’s their inherent property….
I’ve been with PLENTY of full DPS guards in high lvl fracs dude… saying support guardian is redundant lol…they naturally have enough support, theres no need to excessively spec even further into support unless you are just bad at the game

Again, I think you’re confusing support with “healing”. I never said you need to grab more survivability or healing. 4/5/0/0/5 is a support Guardian.

Rangersix.1754:

SkiTz.4590:

Guardians are already support , that’s their inherent property….
I’ve been with PLENTY of full DPS guards in high lvl fracs dude… saying support guardian is redundant lol…they naturally have enough support, theres no need to excessively spec even further into support unless you are just bad at the game

Again, I think you’re confusing support with “healing”. I never said you need to grab more survivability or healing. 4/5/0/0/5 is a support Guardian.

He is not confusing anything, a guardian doesnt need to change anything about his max dps build except utilities to get all the support he needs.

We’re just complaining about gearing/traiting for support being useless.

ocirne.7915:

He is not confusing anything, a guardian doesnt need to change anything about his max dps build except utilities to get all the support he needs.

We’re just complaining about gearing/traiting for support being useless.

Then explain why 4/5/0/0/5 is more common, recommended (by theorycrafters and “high tier guilds”) and more suitable for most situations than 5/5/2/0/2 or 4/6/0/0/2, despite the latter 2 having more DPS for Guardians?

Why Unscathed contender isn’t always kept in your trait slots, but often swapped out in favor of master of consecrations?

Rangersix.1754:

ocirne.7915:

He is not confusing anything, a guardian doesnt need to change anything about his max dps build except utilities to get all the support he needs.

We’re just complaining about gearing/traiting for support being useless.

Then explain why 4/5/0/0/5 is more common, recommended (by theorycrafters and high end guilds) and better for most situations than 5/5/2/0/2 or 4/6/0/0/2, despite the latter 2 having more DPS for Guardians? Why Unscathed contender isn’t always kept in your trait slots, but often swapped out in favor of master of consecrations?

Because 4/5/0/0/5 actually does more dps because of the Power of the Virtuous trait and through more reflection uptime from the concecration trait combined with +20% damage when aegis is up.

People don’t want full support builds, because they are simply inefficient.
Every single class out there has good supporting tools by default (Mesmer has Portal/Veil/Feeback/Time Warp; Warrior has Banners/Shouts; Guardian has Reflection/Purging Flames/Regeneration etc.), so why would you not want to deal more damage, and make the fractal or dungeon run much faster?
Extra support won’t make a big difference, but extra damage most definitely will.

ocirne.7915:

Because 4/5/0/0/5 actually does more dps because of the Power of the Virtuous trait and through more reflection uptime from the concecration trait combined with +20% damage when aegis is up.

No, you are wrong about the DPS bit;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guide-DPS-Guardian-for-PVE/first
http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/12501056-dnt-guardian-build-5914

And reflects are a form of support too. Also, you often swap out UC to run Master of Consecrations + Absolute Resolution, as you’ll find many theorycrafters and “high end” guilds write down.

A few examples that everyone probably knows are;
- AC part 2, where you have to kill the breeder.
- AC part 2, where Detha plants the mines.
- The harpies in Fractals

edit; Also, Hammer Guardians in fractals.

All comes down to bad dungeon design and poor balancing. How bad are the dungeons is this game? Anet sacked their lead developer and dissolved their dungeon team after their AC revamp, sounds like we got our answer. Is there any hope for new dungeons in the future? Nope maybe they will raise fractal cap, but that would require zero effect.
How bad is the games skill balanced. The highest damage in game is FGS 4, which requires you to change your ingame options and not target your target. Sounds like a exploit to me. In a better game GW1, it would have been fixed once it became public (just like Sand Shards in gw1), but because it doesn’t effect pvp (that much) , it is ignored, and readily talked about.

Rangersix.1754:

ocirne.7915:

Because 4/5/0/0/5 actually does more dps because of the Power of the Virtuous trait and through more reflection uptime from the concecration trait combined with +20% damage when aegis is up.

No, you are wrong about the DPS bit;

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guide-DPS-Guardian-for-PVE/first
http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/12501056-dnt-guardian-build-5914

And reflects are a form of support too. Also, you often swap out UC to run Master of Consecrations + Absolute Resolution, as you’ll find many theorycrafters and “high end” guilds write down.

A few examples that everyone probably knows are;
- AC part 2, where Detha plants the mines.
- The harpies in Fractals

Reflect can be a massive dps increase in a lot of places and those guides don’t factor that in. And since reflect is affected by +%damage, people like to get both the aegis and concecration trait.

Shadowmoon.7986:

All comes down to bad dungeon design and poor balancing. How bad are the dungeons is this game? Anet sacked their lead developer and dissolved their dungeon team after their AC revamp, sounds like we got our answer. Is there any hope for new dungeons in the future? Nope maybe they will raise fractal cap, but that would require zero effect.
How bad is the games skill balanced. The highest damage in game is FGS 4, which requires you to change your ingame options and not target your target. Sounds like a exploit to me. In a better game GW1, it would have been fixed once it became public (just like Sand Shards in gw1), but because it doesn’t effect pvp (that much) , it is ignored, and readily talked about.

The dungeons are fine. It’s just they’ve been around for two years which makes them stale and easy.

nexxe.7081:

That’s where you’re wrong. Other roles aren’t needed, or required. Players are required to be self-sufficient, and aren’t required to rely on others’ support, except for reviving, and even then, it’s the players fault for going down in the first place.

Funny, I could have sworn I benefited from someone else’s Aegis, Haste, Reflection, Might, Spotter, Frost Spirit, condition cleanse, etc. that last time I did a dungeon.

Gear plays a huge part for roles. Why would a player use Rabid or Celestial gear, when it’s not required? Damage is the preferred style, making it worse than a Trinity MMO. At least in a Trinity MMO, you can be 3 roles.

What gear do I wear for boons or CC, the support and control roles?

Anyone in non-zerker gear is inferior. If you want to run a dungeon in Celestial or Rabid gear, you’re just making the team less efficient.

So, gear = role. No, it does not.

IndigoSundown.5419:

nexxe.7081:

Gear plays a huge part for roles.

So, gear = role. No, it does not.