Guild Wars 2

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Anyone who thinks DPS is the only important thing needs to ask why guardian and thief aren’t down at the bottom of the barrel along with necromancers.

For dungeon runs, thief produces some of the highest dps, right? Guardian is in the top half of professions in dps too, aren’t they? Plus they produce a massive amount of group support while doing it…

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Anyone who thinks DPS is the only important thing needs to ask why guardian and thief aren’t down at the bottom of the barrel along with necromancers.

For dungeon runs, thief produces some of the highest dps, right? Guardian is in the top half of professions in dps too, aren’t they? Plus they produce a massive amount of group support while doing it…

If dps was the only thing that mattered then you would always run 5 eles. Or 4 eles and 1 warrior.

This vid shows a run which almost requires only dps. Except warrior wasnt an option because it has no blink and stealth was needed. Even in extreme cases like this its never pure dps. We used blinds aswell for some of the trash mobs. So even without the stealth it wasnt pure dps.

http://youtu.be/BwjLQMK7keQ

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Anyone who thinks DPS is the only important thing needs to ask why guardian and thief aren’t down at the bottom of the barrel along with necromancers.

For dungeon runs, thief produces some of the highest dps, right? Guardian is in the top half of professions in dps too, aren’t they? Plus they produce a massive amount of group support while doing it…

They produce a massive amount of group DEFENSIVE support. Which according to people here is useless because DPS is apparently the only thing that matters.

People have decided that no matter whether someone is providing support (defense or offense) or CC, if they are using berserker gear they’re a DPS. The idea that gear = role is too deeply ingrained in the MMO consciousness.

Mortifer.2946:

Those zerkers are just dumb. Sorry, but they do.

The irony.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Anyone who thinks DPS is the only important thing needs to ask why guardian and thief aren’t down at the bottom of the barrel along with necromancers.

For dungeon runs, thief produces some of the highest dps, right? Guardian is in the top half of professions in dps too, aren’t they? Plus they produce a massive amount of group support while doing it…

They produce a massive amount of group DEFENSIVE support. Which according to people here is useless because DPS is apparently the only thing that matters.

Hopefully nobody thinks it is the only thing that matters. That is easily disproven merely by pointing out the necessity of dodging. But DPS is by far the most important thing, at least for dungeon runs. Even the professions brought for support run full DPS gear and even traits for the most part. And much of the support is to boost group DPS. Or for skipping. ;-)

IndigoSundown.5419:

People have decided that no matter whether someone is providing support (defense or offense) or CC, if they are using berserker gear they’re a DPS. The idea that gear = role is too deeply ingrained in the MMO consciousness.

I think people are just emphasizing the fact that speccing for max dps / berserkers is the only sane option there is.

And it does make sense to an extent that gear = role because it makes the biggest difference in your build. Traits are all +5% bonuses, utilities can be swapped out at any time to suit the encounters, and we can’t change anything about our profession / weapon abilities.

ocirne.7915:

IndigoSundown.5419:

People have decided that no matter whether someone is providing support (defense or offense) or CC, if they are using berserker gear they’re a DPS. The idea that gear = role is too deeply ingrained in the MMO consciousness.

I think people are just emphasizing the fact that speccing for max dps / berserkers is the only sane option there is.

And it does make sense to an extent that gear = role because it makes the biggest difference in your build. Traits are all +5% bonuses, utilities can be swapped out at any time to suit the encounters, and we can’t change anything about our profession / weapon abilities.

Yeah but the point is just because you are spec in berserker it doesn’t mean you are only filling the dps role. You can have dps but provide high support. In fact some of the builds using berserker for PvE actually provide the highest level of defensive and support utilities.

Guys this is a war, every one is a capable soldier.

Look at the modern combat unit. Do a medic bring weapon? Is the weapon he use any different to the ally next to him? Is he not trained to kill, is his combat bad thats why he is assigned to be medic? Is his weapon a toy that can’t kill at all?

A field medic is equipped the same to a standard soldier. His combat trainning is as good as his allies. He is as deadly as his teammates when he shoot. He is also able to do suppressing fire as good as a standard soldier. His fellow soldier are also able to do simple medic as well.

Whats make him a medic? The mekittenit? The medical knowledge? Answer is: a duty. He is more focus on treating wounded allies. A duty doesn’t tide to his gear. When nobody is hurt, his duty is killing as this is a better way to protect his teamates. He should be able to do support too if needed more fire power. When a medic down, this doesn’t mean the end, anyone in the team with first aid knowledge should be able to take up the “duty” and provide med awardness.

This is how i think about GW2 combat. A reflection of real world combat covered with fantasy skin.

I’d say there are non-DPS roles while you’re playing DPS. A few examples.

Guardian: Even playing with the meta traits and berserker armor, using proper weapons. You still have the job of using Wall of Reflection right, timing aegis, blinds, condition removal from virtue of justice.

Warrior: Maybe not the best example but you can give AoE swiftness on runs with the warhorn and remove cripple/chill/immobilize on runs. You keep the party buffed with your banners so they can do more damage

Ranger: Not super familiar with them but I know that you gotta place Frost Spirit properly so it’s not destroyed and not using a bear + longbow is more support than any other class in the world can give.

Thief: Stealth for skips, blinds for trash, a nice wall if you lack reflects. They can put out alot of weakness too if it’s needed for damage reduction

Engineer: Great at might stacking and keeping vulnerability up so the group can kill faster thus putting them in less danger. Like thief they have some stealth for skips. Some AoE healing that they don’t have to specialize for. They also have projectile reflect/absorb.

Mesmer: Again, not too familiar. They bring reflects, a good pulling ability to keep foes balled up. Timewarp is pretty good. Also minor stealth for skips

Necromancer: Not the greatest group supporter, but they do have blinds and weakness. Good at stacking some vulnerability

Elementalist: Tons of might stacking, the amazingness of FGS and Frostbow. Lightning Hammer provides some blind support. With staff there’s some control skills for skips like Earth 4. Also FGS cuz one mention isn’t enough

Think I got all that right

Again, no one is arguing that other roles cannot be played.

Some of us are stating, that it is inefficient to gear, and trait, for anything besides Damage.

No sane group, would bring a support/healing geared, and traited, guardian to a group, unless they wanted to lose DPS on each encounter, thus making the encounter last longer.

It would be like bringing a linebacker to fulfill the role of a quarterback.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football_positions

nexxe.7081:

Again, no one is arguing that other roles cannot be played.

Some of us are stating, that it is inefficient to gear, and trait, for anything besides Damage.

No sane group, would bring a support/healing geared, and traited, guardian to a group, unless they wanted to lose DPS on each encounter, thus making the encounter last longer.

It would be like bringing a linebacker to fulfill the role of a quarterback.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football_positions

I hate to agree with this but after 70+ hobby dungeon explorer completions I sorta have to. At the moment maximizing DPS in this game = maximizing time. I suspect that the time/money relationship is possibly because gold is the major currency ingame and most things can be sold to other players.

That said, I find that more often than not if I DON’T have a support-character backup I can switch to, the groups I’m in wipe and I’m the last person standing. It is possibly because I am not picky about who I dungeon with and so I do get a lot of new players in my groups. That’s fine and I’m not in a race against the clock.

I have noticed that there tends to be a weird middle ground between players that are new and want to zerk and players that are just insanely pro at zerk. These are players that have been around long enough to know basically how the dungeon works, have some zerk gear, but haven’t optimized their builds, trinkets, whatever to maximize their dps. I tend to notice it more around classes that I personally play a lot in dungeons I run frequently. What happens is that they die and because we don’t have the dps to burn down the boss we need to fall back onto plan B, which is to have someone keep the others up. That someone is usually me.

I really enjoy support characters though, so I don’t mind. And my personal rule of thumb is to have people play however they want so long as they are able to complete the dungeon objectives.

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Anyone who thinks DPS is the only important thing needs to ask why guardian and thief aren’t down at the bottom of the barrel along with necromancers.

For dungeon runs, thief produces some of the highest dps, right? Guardian is in the top half of professions in dps too, aren’t they? Plus they produce a massive amount of group support while doing it…

They produce a massive amount of group DEFENSIVE support. Which according to people here is useless because DPS is apparently the only thing that matters.

Hopefully nobody thinks it is the only thing that matters. That is easily disproven merely by pointing out the necessity of dodging. But DPS is by far the most important thing, at least for dungeon runs. Even the professions brought for support run full DPS gear and even traits for the most part. And much of the support is to boost group DPS. Or for skipping. ;-)

Apparently they really hate the idea of doing damage while supporting, or something. Tbh I don’t really get it either, the only explanation I can think of is that they’re lazy and want to spec full defense and have an excuse for it.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Nerelith.7360:

….
No I Just want the trinity Anet promised.

….I don’t recall this “promise”….please provide references.

As mentioned above, EVERY player is the source of Damage, Healing & Support/Control.

The only “enforced meta” is in Dungeon speed runs or Fractals. That is a small segment of the game so either learn to cope with the community “issues” or play another aspect of the game.

Look Up " WTF?? No Trinity?" On youtube. It describes the " Trinity" in Gw2. BY Gw2.

A very old topic. Just want to add this: if you don’t have a trinity and no tank and healer, there is only DPS left.

But Anet can change that. There are a couple of bosses where Berserker and Assassin gear don’t work, i. e. Tequatl who is more like an object you can’t crit, making those gear types negating two of the most powerful stat points (ferocity, precision). I am always super excited when I respec my Guardian to a super massive juggernaut who can’t die. It’s really one of the only parts in the game I can’t finally do something else than DPS with my Berserker gear.

I hope they will do something against this. Also make group buffs party wide, so we don’t have to hug walls etc and make ranged combat viable.

It really boils down to this:

- Most of the PvE dungeon/fractal content is designed around useless trash mobs, more useless trash mobs, followed by a very controlled and predictable boss environment and fight.

- Bosses telegraph attacks that are designed to be 100% dodgable due to most of them performing 99% of their DPS in 5-10 second delays.

- Bosses being pretty much immune to soft CC… Condi Cap.

- Both the trash and the bosses in most cases have very unintelligent AI and limited use of game mechanics, usually being heavy hitting, slow, direct damage melee DPS types. Ranged mobs stacking with melee mobs or standing in AoE/massive DPS is very unrealistic and should be changed. Ranged mobs should stay at range strafing into the correct positions rather than taking tight corners to find/attack players. GW1 mobs after a few months were programmed to move out of AoE or stop stacking if the group was taking insane DPS over time from players… So why not GW2?

- Getting more to point of mobs not using game mechanics, where are the heavy hitting condi mobs? Dodging mobs? Stealth/Teleporting mobs? Where are the constant debuffs to player DPS? Chain Interrupt Mobs like GW1? Where’s the anti-player CC? Why do mobs not use holy trinity or mix of the above, like GW1, to add more challenge?

- The most useful forms of support and damage mitigation require no gear (Reflection, Aegis, Dodging, Protection etc.).

The gear, the builds and the game mechanics on the player side are all mostly in the right place as evidenced by PvP/WvW. The problem is PvE design is so simplistic and one dimensional that the counter is simplistic and one dimensional: Kill them before they kill you as soon as possible. If mobs acted more like players then there would be more demand for non zerk and defensive/condi builds.

Now there has been evidence of this changing in the later parts of LS Chapter 1 and even more so in LS Chapter 2. The only problem is that the living story content is either open world zerg fests or easy personal story content, so the increased mob difficulty isn’t shining through right now.

Anet’s goal should be to make all kinds of group makeups to be optimal. Super high DPS groups should able to complete content, but should be punished for focusing so little on defense. They should be having problems staying up just like PvP/WvW. If the fight lasts more than 30 seconds to a minute or two, a full zerk team should be hanging on to dear life as they DPS down targets. That would mark well designed content. Instead they only have to dodge every 5 seconds or run past trash.

It should feel like the similar punishment super high defense groups deal with for having too little DPS and thereby not being able to kill some bosses even, leaving themselves open to more mistakes as a fight goes on, or the encounters taking a lot longer (forever) to complete.

I think everyone would be having a lot more fun if PvE encounters felt like we were fighting players and we really needed to adapt to situations with different gear/builds rather than zerk+might stacks+aegis+stability+dodge+reflect=fastest win. Loot tables would need to be updated to be more rewarding from trash mobs.

The reason why enemies aren’t interesting is that about 90% of the playerbase would instantly complain how enemies just stunlock you (with one telegraphed skill every 15 s), slow you down (why should I bring condition removal??), avoid your attacks or just can’t be killed by spamming one skill.

It’s true, I was once in a WoW guild doing an achievement run in an older raid and you had to use a bow or sit emote, don’t remember exactly, you have about 5s to do the command after a certain telegraph and the raid leader was shouting it when we had to do this. Still – there were some players who couldn’t perform this.

It’s true: it seems I come from a time where very fast reaction and hard bosses were just normal (speak: Mega Man, Street Fighter, Castlevania etc.). We live in an era of casual gamers and games get toned down more and more. Just compare vanilla WoW with their hard instances to the faceroll instances now…

I have a different opinion than most people here. I feel that the glass cannon concept has its place but it shouldn’t be as dominant in pve as it is. I also feel that simply changing the AI can easily fix this while making fights far more engaging.

Let’s take Turmaine from Caudecus’s Manor for example. Right off the bat, cut his health down by a third. Because he spends almost half the time being invulnerable, he has way too much. Also, I feel shorter, skill-intensive fights are better than longer wars of attrition.

Second, take away defiance and instead, give him an ability to clear any condition a second after it is applied except for weakness. Then program him to target the last person that used a control skill on him. Allow him to auto-attack as often as a players can and, if he can’t hit his target within 5 to 7 seconds of running after them, he switches to pistols, stands still and attacks from range. While ranging, he will actively dodge any attack meant to stun him as long as he isn’t afflicted by weakness. Any player that tries to get into melee range will instantly be targeted, hit with Headshot and then Unload. If 5 of his auto-attack shots are reflected, he switches back to daggers and chases his target again. While this is going on, he will still spawn aoe poison pools under everyone outside of melee range.

When he enters spectral form, he still loses the ability to attack with weapons but gains swiftness and a large, point-blank aoe aura. This aura pulses a small bits of damage as quickly as Frost’s auto-attacks and inflicts cripple to everyone it hits. He still can’t be hurt by physical attacks but no longer cleanses conditions, except for weakness, which he becomes immune to. In fact, during this phase, non-damaging conditions like vulnerability and cripple will have their durations doubled while damage-oriented ones and retaliation will do twice as much.

One interrupt will stop his pulses for 2 seconds. Five interrupts within 3 to 5 seconds will knock him out of spectral form and leave him stunned for several seconds. Once he recovers, he’ll start using weapons again while spawning poison pools under anyone outside of melee range.

The idea is to allow one person to gain aggro and tank his attacks while others focus on burning him down or allow glass cannons to kite him by swapping aggro between them. During his spectral phase, tanking will no longer be as viable but condi builds are given a moment to shine while a single mesmer or a well-organized team can bring him out of it and burst him down quickly. It also makes for a more thrilling fight as the bosses is given a few simple but powerful reactions to keep players on their toes and can be approached in a few different ways than what’s presently available.

There’s something I forgot to add. During a cutscene, the npc traveling with the players should mention drop a few hints about how to handle Turmaine. She could say that weakness works well on him but, once he enters spectral form, direct damage is useless. Let the players figure out the rest.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Being the “last man standing” on your non-DPS spec is nothing to brag about, it means you made a spec to do something other than DPS (i.e. tank, heal, CC, etc.) and FAILED because your party is now dead.

“My healer build was so amazing my entire party wiped” is basically what I see people saying whenenver they say “last man standing”.

we’re talking pugs, some of whom might be new to the game and I wouldnt consider it a failure if it didnt wipe.

what processing logic are you using to translate this “last man standing” to this “My healer build was so amazing my entire party wiped”

last man standing doesnt imply healer and if they’re standing it implies there is no wipe!

Even if Anet makes these non-DPS roles important it won’t change the grand scheme of things.
Bads will bad.
Min-maxers will optimise.

That’s pretty much it.

Also, the pve drama, ohhh.

nexxe.7081:

Again, most of you missed the point.

I’ll keep it short this time and perhaps there is some hope, that some of you will understand.

-DPS-zerker is desired, but not required.
-One role is superior. The others are inferior.

When you have one role desired over everything else, then you must admit it’s a problem.

in every game there is one superior role and the other are inferior. perfect balance doesnt exist!

Nerelith.7360:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Nerelith.7360:

….
No I Just want the trinity Anet promised.

….I don’t recall this “promise”….please provide references.

As mentioned above, EVERY player is the source of Damage, Healing & Support/Control.

The only “enforced meta” is in Dungeon speed runs or Fractals. That is a small segment of the game so either learn to cope with the community “issues” or play another aspect of the game.

Look Up " WTF?? No Trinity?" On youtube. It describes the " Trinity" in Gw2. BY Gw2.

Didnt find it. do you have a link?

I did find this though:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combat

“Guild Wars 2 does not follow the “holy trinity” design found in other MMOs, where professions fall into tank, damage, and healing. Due to a diverse skill system allowing for a multitude of vastly different character builds, every profession in Guild Wars 2 is capable of fitting each of the combat roles (damage, support, control) or are sometimes even the result of a combination of them.

Every profession has the tools to survive on its own."

Mortifer.2946:

Those zerkers are just dumb. Sorry, but they do. The most fun is when I see them play open world and some champ insta-down them. Most of them don’t even try to dodge. Thousand Blades rulezzzz, I guess.

Reminds me so much of one time I took a party of 5 into the final story mission.

Everyone except me kept downing, and I was on an all-bowcaster ranger. Okay, 2 of them were very young (under 18) so I can forgive that. But this one Warrior seemed a clued up guy.

So I asked him, is he running blue gear, or gear levelled 75 or below?

“Full zerk”

Explains everything. I quit the party. We didn’t even make it onto the airship.

Galen Grey.4709:

Nerelith.7360:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Nerelith.7360:

….
No I Just want the trinity Anet promised.

….I don’t recall this “promise”….please provide references.

As mentioned above, EVERY player is the source of Damage, Healing & Support/Control.

The only “enforced meta” is in Dungeon speed runs or Fractals. That is a small segment of the game so either learn to cope with the community “issues” or play another aspect of the game.

Look Up " WTF?? No Trinity?" On youtube. It describes the " Trinity" in Gw2. BY Gw2.

Didnt find it. do you have a link?

Notice the dude says " the supposed removal" 10 seconds In… and then describes the Trinity of the game.

The three legs the Gw2 stool is supposed to have is.. Combat, Support, Damage.

Two legs are kinda short and weak. We all know what happens when you sit On this type of stool.

I did find this though:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Combat

“Guild Wars 2 does not follow the “holy trinity” design found in other MMOs, where professions fall into tank, damage, and healing. Due to a diverse skill system allowing for a multitude of vastly different character builds, every profession in Guild Wars 2 is capable of fitting each of the combat roles (damage, support, control) or are sometimes even the result of a combination of them.

Every profession has the tools to survive on its own."

Exactly my point. We Agree. The Trinity was not removed, it was changed. And it is now set up so each class fits only one predetermined Trinity role… healing Priests, tanking paladins…etc… but all classes can fit any of the trinity roles.

I believe the problem is one where the game hyped up two roles, and yes, watch that video it IS hype. But then … trivialized two of the roles to be " Role-type skills".

Instead of a group needing any of the five in the dungeon to say " Ok, I’ll take the healer spot this time." what they did was gave everyone the skills to heal themselves. Instead of having one say " This run through I’ll do CC ( crowd control)"… they simply gave everyone the tools to CC.

This may be from where a lot of the disappointment for some players stems.

I think part of the disconnect here is that some people are arguing for non DPS roles while others are arguing that non DPS abilities are available. Sure control and support are present, and used, in GW2, but generally (?) not as roles in a group. The character with a blind, knock, block, reflect, water field, whatever is a DPS role, primarily, who has some control and/or support ability in his build.

Other people seem to be looking to have a character for whom DPS is not a significant function of their build while focusing on support and/or control be as useful to the party as a DPS focused character who carries some support/control as secondary elements of their build.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Apparently they really hate the idea of doing damage while supporting, or something. Tbh I don’t really get it either, the only explanation I can think of is that they’re lazy and want to spec full defense and have an excuse for it.

quoting this for truth. I will add another reason why: I believe that some people want to RP as a support tank. That is how they envision their character and thats how they want to play it. It doesn’t matter that the game isnt designed to have that type of character be useful in PvE. They want -they NEED- to play a Holy Paladin Sword and Board Guardian and that’s that. The idea that they can spec full berserker AND provide all the same utility is irrelevant because in their internal conception of what their character is its a full tank support, not a full dps support.

I have no problem with people trying to fulfill some internal vision of their character concept. The issue starts when people demand that the very nature of the game be radically altered so that their internal vision become extremely effective. This is entirely selfish, and ignores all the people whose equally important internal visions would be hurt.

Regardless, the best bet is not to argue fruitlessly about radically changing the basic nature of the game (won’t happen) but to either enjoy the game for what it actually is, or find another game that you would enjoy more for what it is.

Other people seem to be looking to have a character for whom DPS is not a significant function of their build while focusing on support and/or control be as useful to the party as a DPS focused character who carries some support/control as secondary elements of their build.

Unfortunately for them, that isn’t what guild wars 2 pve is. That isn’t this game. Sorry. If this is a deal breaker for you, well, find another game.

Tree.3916:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Apparently they really hate the idea of doing damage while supporting, or something. Tbh I don’t really get it either, the only explanation I can think of is that they’re lazy and want to spec full defense and have an excuse for it.

quoting this for truth. I will add another reason why: I believe that some people want to RP as a support tank. That is how they envision their character and thats how they want to play it. It doesn’t matter that the game isnt designed to have that type of character be useful in PvE. They want -they NEED- to play a Holy Paladin Sword and Board Guardian and that’s that. The idea that they can spec full berserker AND provide all the same utility is irrelevant because in their internal conception of what their character is its a full tank support, not a full dps support.

I have no problem with people trying to fulfill some internal vision of their character concept. The issue starts when people demand that the very nature of the game be radically altered so that their internal vision become extremely effective. This is entirely selfish, and ignores all the people whose equally important internal visions would be hurt.

Regardless, the best bet is not to argue fruitlessly about radically changing the basic nature of the game (won’t happen) but to either enjoy the game for what it actually is, or find another game that you would enjoy more for what it is.

Other people seem to be looking to have a character for whom DPS is not a significant function of their build while focusing on support and/or control be as useful to the party as a DPS focused character who carries some support/control as secondary elements of their build.

Unfortunately for them, that isn’t what guild wars 2 pve is. That isn’t this game. Sorry. If this is a deal breaker for you, well, find another game.

So why does gear other than berserkers exist? why does healing power exist? Anet is throwing away a big part of the game simply because they won’t bother to make the other specs comparable to max dps.

ocirne.7915:

Tree.3916:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Apparently they really hate the idea of doing damage while supporting, or something. Tbh I don’t really get it either, the only explanation I can think of is that they’re lazy and want to spec full defense and have an excuse for it.

quoting this for truth. I will add another reason why: I believe that some people want to RP as a support tank. That is how they envision their character and thats how they want to play it. It doesn’t matter that the game isnt designed to have that type of character be useful in PvE. They want -they NEED- to play a Holy Paladin Sword and Board Guardian and that’s that. The idea that they can spec full berserker AND provide all the same utility is irrelevant because in their internal conception of what their character is its a full tank support, not a full dps support.

I have no problem with people trying to fulfill some internal vision of their character concept. The issue starts when people demand that the very nature of the game be radically altered so that their internal vision become extremely effective. This is entirely selfish, and ignores all the people whose equally important internal visions would be hurt.

Regardless, the best bet is not to argue fruitlessly about radically changing the basic nature of the game (won’t happen) but to either enjoy the game for what it actually is, or find another game that you would enjoy more for what it is.

Other people seem to be looking to have a character for whom DPS is not a significant function of their build while focusing on support and/or control be as useful to the party as a DPS focused character who carries some support/control as secondary elements of their build.

Unfortunately for them, that isn’t what guild wars 2 pve is. That isn’t this game. Sorry. If this is a deal breaker for you, well, find another game.

So why does gear other than berserkers exist? why does healing power exist? Anet is throwing away a big part of the game simply because they won’t bother to make the other specs comparable to max dps.

other gear exists purely for WvW/sPvP specs…quite a bit of diversity in those aspects of the game but PvE? nope, your choice of gear is totally irrelevent. Obviously zerk is best, but everything in PvE can be completed in any type of gear, just at a slower pace.

GW2’s PvE is literally the easiest PvE out there in the MMO market and by far the least diverse in terms of picking gear. I’ve been using the same zerk gear for over a year, and it won’t ever change because I don’t ever see the need to be wearing PVT or clerics or any other stat combo in PvE.

Galen Grey.4709:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Being the “last man standing” on your non-DPS spec is nothing to brag about, it means you made a spec to do something other than DPS (i.e. tank, heal, CC, etc.) and FAILED because your party is now dead.

“My healer build was so amazing my entire party wiped” is basically what I see people saying whenenver they say “last man standing”.

we’re talking pugs, some of whom might be new to the game and I wouldnt consider it a failure if it didnt wipe.

what processing logic are you using to translate this “last man standing” to this “My healer build was so amazing my entire party wiped”

last man standing doesnt imply healer and if they’re standing it implies there is no wipe!

1) Not DPS = you were healer or tank or some other similar support role.
2) Last man standing = everyone else is dead.
3) Everyone else is dead = healer/tank/support didn’t do his job properly.

I think the problem is… some people would Like to be support and control specialists. Not saying they do not wish to do damage, They simply wish to be able to specialize in one of the other two roles of the Anet trinity.

Saying " you can do support, and you can control." doesn’t mean that you can specialize. Some people want to specialize. Now this is Not the game for that…. this is a game for generalists that mostly do damage, and do support or control only sporadically.

Control think EQ Enchanter. Support Think EQ Druid.

None of that is in Gw2. Now asking for it is an exercise in futility. The game is what the game is.

We need to either enjoy it for what it is…. or find something else to play.

TBH, game would be better off not having any stats at all. Progression is horizontal. In a year from now most players who play regularly (and are thus confronted with the pve meta) will have full ascended gear. Might take a bit longer or a bit shorter but the fact is no new gear tier means everyone will eventually have everything. At which progression will only be about skins or maybe infusions/newly made runesets/sigils or w/e.

Why not do away with stats entirely? This entire thread is a bunch of people crying that they can’t play holy priest or protection warrior in this game. The fact is this will never be implemented any way. All that stats on gear does right now is create the illusion that it is possible through passive mitigation stats, to build a tank or healer character. It gives players the illusion of being able to play how they want on any reasonable level of pve gameplay (5 cleric dungeon clears are definitely possible but I would assume the majority of the gw2 population doesn’t really wanna spend 30-40 mins in AC). Make GW2 pve like Spvp but remove the amulet.. only your traits, sigils, runes and weapon choice matter. Release all weapons for all classes. Remove stats on gear. What this does is remove the focus on DPS/TANK/HEAL or DPS/CONTROL/SUPPORT as DPS will be something every class inherently does. The heavy classes have the most armor and some classes have more or less HP than others just like now. Remove critical hits and precision. All weapon skills and utility skills do x-amount of damage which can be amplified through traits. All classes DPS are within reasonable distance of eachother. Make stuff logical. Elementalists should shine on AOE DPS. Thief’s should shine on single target DPS. Make difference between Burst and Sustained DPS through traits and weapon choices. Roles will be about boons/CC/utility. Damage should never be a role.. lol. If I’m an engineer and I specialise in providing boons for my party through my superior alchemic skills in elixir making, why does it make any sense that when I shoot the same rifle as the engi next to me who specialises in bombs, does any less damage than his rifle does? A bullet is a bullet. A bullet to the face should always hurt. A lightning whip or fireball should always hurt. DPS should be what any class does inherently. Make builds about roles in specific fights . Some fights revolve around reflects, any guardians and mesmers should spec for reflect builds. Some fights require alot of AOE. Elementalists should spec for staff aoe instead of s/d burst.

TL;DR Remove stats on gear, make builds about fights requiring specific roles. Construct builds around traits/sigils/runes/weapons. Give all classes all weapons.

GW2 solved.

Nerelith.7360:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eETY558A5ds

Notice the dude says " the supposed removal" 10 seconds In… and then describes the Trinity of the game.

That dude isnt Arenanet not to mention that video was released months before the game’s release thus I imagine is mostly speculation.

Nerelith.7360:

The three legs the Gw2 stool is supposed to have is.. Combat, Support, Damage.

Two legs are kinda short and weak. We all know what happens when you sit On this type of stool.

Short and weak is subjective. If they were really short and weak why are they so important in PvP? People dont feel the need to employ them in PvE isnt the same as they’re not powerful enough.

Nerelith.7360:

Exactly my point. We Agree. The Trinity was not removed, it was changed. And it is now set up so each class fits only one predetermined Trinity role… healing Priests, tanking paladins…etc… but all classes can fit any of the trinity roles.

No we’re not agreeing it was removed.. In order to have the trinity you need 3 roles and each role has to be specific and exclusive. It is not the trinity if your character is effective at all 3 roles at the same time. Thats like the core fundamental principle of the trinity.

Nerelith.7360:

I believe the problem is one where the game hyped up two roles, and yes, watch that video it IS hype. But then … trivialized two of the roles to be " Role-type skills".

Make a distinction between fan’s speculating how things are going to work and developer supplied information.

Nerelith.7360:

Instead of a group needing any of the five in the dungeon to say " Ok, I’ll take the healer spot this time." what they did was gave everyone the skills to heal themselves. Instead of having one say " This run through I’ll do CC ( crowd control)"… they simply gave everyone the tools to CC.

This may be from where a lot of the disappointment for some players stems.

Sure but they didnt remove the ability for anyone of the 5 to take the healer role. they didnt take the ability for anyone of the 5 to take the crowd control role. What they did is allow people to choose which ever role they want to play primarily and dynamically switch roles based on needs during the encounter, even during the fight itself.

If one in my party starts to take a pounding I and any other can go in and support him/her in various ways depending on the situation and that’s awesome.

Ashen.2907:

Other people seem to be looking to have a character for whom DPS is not a significant function of their build while focusing on support and/or control be as useful to the party as a DPS focused character who carries some support/control as secondary elements of their build.

wouldnt that actually be unnatural?
When you go in a fight your main aim is to kill your opponent why would you want to be kitten in doing that?

Someone mentioned this before, a combat medic isn’t issued with a knife instead of a gun just cause he has the ability to heal and thats an important point. Like wise a soldier may not be an awesome medic but can still do first aid if needs be.

Thing is Trinity works by putting limitations in place not by making roles more powerful. There is a reason you never see 3 tanks and 2 healers. or 3 healers a tank and a dps.

DPS is always king cause well thats what a fight is always about primarily.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Galen Grey.4709:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Being the “last man standing” on your non-DPS spec is nothing to brag about, it means you made a spec to do something other than DPS (i.e. tank, heal, CC, etc.) and FAILED because your party is now dead.

“My healer build was so amazing my entire party wiped” is basically what I see people saying whenenver they say “last man standing”.

we’re talking pugs, some of whom might be new to the game and I wouldnt consider it a failure if it didnt wipe.

what processing logic are you using to translate this “last man standing” to this “My healer build was so amazing my entire party wiped”

last man standing doesnt imply healer and if they’re standing it implies there is no wipe!

1) Not DPS = you were healer or tank or some other similar support role.
2) Last man standing = everyone else is dead.
3) Everyone else is dead = healer/tank/support didn’t do his job properly.

Have to agree here. As much as I don’t Like the " DPS trumps all" nature of the game, this is truth.

Saying " I am not DPS" = " I am either support or control"…" I am usually last man standing " = " I didn’t keep my group alive, as well as I did Not do my utmost to DPS"

This is NOT a reason to brag. This means that you suck at your chosen role. If you are not DPS, then your role is to keep the DPS characters alive. If everyone around you is dead, that means you suck. Now. This is Not meant for the person I am quoting, the reason I am quoting you personally is…I agree with you.

There are dozens of games where Healers are necessary. There are plenty of games where tanks are necessary. This is not one of those games.

We need to accept this, and Play the game for what it is…. or find another. But constantly wanting the game to be drastically altered to be what someone else envisions the game should be, is an exercise in futility.

Mortifer.2946:

Yesterday I saw some guild recruitment where it was claimed that they look for experienced dungeon/fractal runners. I consider myself such player, yet I was not accepted, because I’ve built my guardian on soldier stats and condi removing runes/traits which is very useful for the whole party, yet it lack some DPS so I was told GL BB

Those zerkers are just dumb. Sorry, but they do. The most fun is when I see them play open world and some champ insta-down them. Most of them don’t even try to dodge. Thousand Blades rulezzzz, I guess.

o.O I’m full zerker and was the last one standing during the new open world events with the latest patch. Playing full zerker is unforgiving and forces you to know when to dodge and learn the mechanics of a boss/champ.

For instance, there was this champ they introduced that everyone ranged, if you did, you died because of an op attack of his, go melee and all you have to do is dodge the aoe on him when he does it.

Also, I can’t blame the zerker meta because that is the optimal way to play and show skill.
I can understand that the OP wants to play a different role, but that is hard when the principle behind the game was to make every character a “jack of all trades and master of none”. In the trinity system you had clear healers, tanks & your dps.

With a hybrid system, people expect you to have the skills to survive & ask you to dps because you are also one of those hybrids that is expected to output some dps unlike healers in the trinity system.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Galen Grey.4709:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Being the “last man standing” on your non-DPS spec is nothing to brag about, it means you made a spec to do something other than DPS (i.e. tank, heal, CC, etc.) and FAILED because your party is now dead.

“My healer build was so amazing my entire party wiped” is basically what I see people saying whenenver they say “last man standing”.

we’re talking pugs, some of whom might be new to the game and I wouldnt consider it a failure if it didnt wipe.

what processing logic are you using to translate this “last man standing” to this “My healer build was so amazing my entire party wiped”

last man standing doesnt imply healer and if they’re standing it implies there is no wipe!

1) Not DPS = you were healer or tank or some other similar support role.
2) Last man standing = everyone else is dead.
3) Everyone else is dead = healer/tank/support didn’t do his job properly.

in a trinity setup yes sure… but in gw2 everyone is dps, tank and healer at the same time (or damage, control , support to use the official terminology).

Perhaps the last man standing is the last man standing cause s/he didnt neglect their control, support part while the other did. Support and control help in Gw2 but they’re not going to keep everyone alive.

Your statement isn’t necessary true in a trinity setup either. A healers job is first and foremost to keep himself/herself alive before his/her teammates. A dead DPS is bad but survivable generally speaking a dead healer means game over.

ocirne.7915:

So why does gear other than berserkers exist?

1. PvP/WvW
2. In PvE: To provide a safety net for players learning to dodge. I fully understand a newbie who has never fought a boss isnt going to dodge correctly. They will inevitably eat some attacks. Tanky gear or sustain gear will close the learning gap.

why does healing power exist?

Professions with high regeneration or traits/skills that give health per second will survive longer with healing power instead of more vitality or toughness. Compare Zealots (Power/Precision/Healing) vs Knights (Toughness/Precision/Power) on a warrior. Warriors healing signet and naturally high armor combined with heal on crit food means that a warrior using zealots who isnt the best dodger would survive longer (AND DO MORE DAMAGE) using Zealots than he would with Knights. Some professions simply get more survivability from HP than they do adding more vit or toughness.

Anet is throwing away a big part of the game simply because they won’t bother to make the other specs comparable to max dps.

No, they aren’t. The gear, all of it, as it currently exists works perfectly. If you need help dodging and aren’t going to survive without some tankiness or sustainability, the wide spectrum of defensive gear works amazingly in the role it was intended for. The only gear set that is currently broken and dysfunctional is Rampager’s but that’s another story.

The game is 2 years old. People who have been playing for months/years know how to dodge in the same dungeons they have been doing for months/years. They don’t need the defensive safety net any longer. This is why Berserker gear dominates now. Fewer people need the crutches anymore, so fewer people use crutches, simple as that.

The thing is DPS roles ARE important. Just because this game does not have the Trinity in it, does not mean that there is only DPS left. It is far from it. It is the players who say DPS (hence Zerker) is the only important thing – that is a player defined meta. That is not was A.Net says.

If you play in WvW you see that there are many roles that are needed and HAVE to be used. Same with sPvP – you can’t just use DPS only. Same with PvE . it is the players mindset that is causing this issue, not A.Net.

Exactly this.

1. People complain support and control don’t matter
2. People tell them support and control do matter
3. People refuse to believe it because apparently they don’t actually want support and control at all and just want to complain rather than ask how you can support and control and then bring that to their groups

It’s like people enjoy complaining or something.

Tree.3916:

ocirne.7915:

So why does gear other than berserkers exist?

1. PvP/WvW
2. In PvE: To provide a safety net for players learning to dodge. I fully understand a newbie who has never fought a boss isnt going to dodge correctly. They will inevitably eat some attacks. Tanky gear or sustain gear will close the learning gap.

why does healing power exist?

Professions with high regeneration or traits/skills that give health per second will survive longer with healing power instead of more vitality or toughness. Compare Zealots (Power/Precision/Healing) vs Knights (Toughness/Precision/Power) on a warrior. Warriors healing signet and naturally high armor combined with heal on crit food means that a warrior using zealots who isnt the best dodger would survive longer (AND DO MORE DAMAGE) using Zealots than he would with Knights. Some professions simply get more survivability from HP than they do adding more vit or toughness.

Anet is throwing away a big part of the game simply because they won’t bother to make the other specs comparable to max dps.

No, they aren’t. The gear, all of it, as it currently exists works perfectly. If you need help dodging and aren’t going to survive without some tankiness or sustainability, the wide spectrum of defensive gear works amazingly in the role it was intended for. The only gear set that is currently broken and dysfunctional is Rampager’s but that’s another story.

The game is 2 years old. People who have been playing for months/years know how to dodge in the same dungeons they have been doing for months/years. They don’t need the defensive safety net any longer. This is why Berserker gear dominates now. Fewer people need the crutches anymore, so fewer people use crutches, simple as that.

They are not crutches – that is funny. DPS ONLY is also crutch – hurry – get the boss down fast..

Go take a glass cannon ele to dungeons. DPS gear isn’t a crutch at all, mobs just have to breathe on you and you explode.

The presence of active defense in this game (dodging) means that passive defense and healing are no longer useful in PvE once you’ve attained a certain level of player skill.

Stats like Healing Power, Toughness, and Vitality never come into play if you never get hit, and dodging allows you to never get hit.

If you aren’t experienced enough to survive the encounter by relying on active defense, then by all means bring some passive defense to my group (I’ll play with anyone, not picky at all). Just don’t try and join groups that are asking for “exp full zerk” players because that isn’t you yet.

maha.7902:

Go take a glass cannon ele to dungeons. DPS gear isn’t a crutch at all, mobs just have to breathe on you and you explode.

He was being facetious, he is saying that if a player is wearing serker’s the rest of the group is his crutch. I disagree.

I cannot yet play in full serker, my dodges suck, and I cannot see the ’ tell-tales" others see. I have been away almost 18 months so..I Hope to improve.

I admire serker wearers, I acknowledge what they do is not easy. While I may wish it to be otherwise, I will not take that from them.

Serker wearers are like Trapeze artists that fly without a net. All I can do is admire, and hope to emulate.

But saying " wearing serker’s is also a crutch." sounds Like sour grapes to me.

Galen Grey.4709:

Ashen.2907:

Other people seem to be looking to have a character for whom DPS is not a significant function of their build while focusing on support and/or control be as useful to the party as a DPS focused character who carries some support/control as secondary elements of their build.

wouldnt that actually be unnatural?
When you go in a fight your main aim is to kill your opponent why would you want to be kitten in doing that?

Someone mentioned this before, a combat medic isn’t issued with a knife instead of a gun just cause he has the ability to heal and thats an important point. Like wise a soldier may not be an awesome medic but can still do first aid if needs be.

Thing is Trinity works by putting limitations in place not by making roles more powerful. There is a reason you never see 3 tanks and 2 healers. or 3 healers a tank and a dps.

DPS is always king cause well thats what a fight is always about primarily.

I think the issue lies in the fact you are unable to specialize into anything but DPS in this game. Support’s stats are rare for the most part and Control has no stats whatsoever, just a handful of sigils and runes. No matter your build you’re going to do damage in this game, but damage is the only thing you can easily build into and get desirable results, due to the existence of Berserker and Assassin stats.
If the devs got rid of those two stats, I image we may see more diversity in pve builds, as the game has way more stats like Knight’s, Zealot’s and Valkyrie’s. But I doubt that would happen.

If they got rid of berserker and assassin stats we would all literally just bandwagon on to the third highest DPS stat combination(s). Whether this meant zealots, valkyrie, zealot/valk mix, celestial or whatever, we would just take the next highest DPS. Is it then diversity if we simply migrate to another stat?

maha.7902:

If they got rid of berserker and assassin stats we would all literally just bandwagon on to the third highest DPS stat combination(s). Whether this meant zealots, valkyrie, zealot/valk mix, celestial or whatever, we would just take the next highest DPS. Is it then diversity if we simply migrate to another stat?

I really think that they should have standardized gear stats so that they can only have 1 offensive stat, 1 defensive stat, and 1 utility stat on each item. This would have significantly reduced the offensive stat spread between the min and max gear sets and allowed for better content balancing.

Unfortunately, that’s a genie that can’t go back into a bottle.

maha.7902:

If they got rid of berserker and assassin stats we would all literally just bandwagon on to the third highest DPS stat combination(s). Whether this meant zealots, valkyrie, zealot/valk mix, celestial or whatever, we would just take the next highest DPS. Is it then diversity if we simply migrate to another stat?

It wouldn’t be as singular though. Zerk and Sin are the only stats in the game that have a 3/3 in damage. The others are all 2/3 or less, making them much closer together in terms of dps, meaning players would be less incline to demand a specific one, or at the very least it would vary between specs as some classes have better access to critical chance than others. The drop in dps may also erase that bubble that exists where you can deal so much dps that even active defense becomes unneeded.

Nerelith.7360:

Look Up " WTF?? No Trinity?" On youtube. It describes the " Trinity" in Gw2. BY Gw2.

Searched this and only found videos by Woodenpotatoes. Not saying they are bad, but in no way are they valid promises by a GW2 employee. Again, post a link and I’ll buy your basket of “ANET BREAKS WORD!!!!!”, goods….other than that, you are just spreading FUD as a disgruntled player.