Guild Wars 2

Mortifer.2946:

Bread.7516:

If you dislike doing damage do not play action games.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_game

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

compare and rewrite your thesis

The term is widely used but unless someone has the brain of a monkey then they should know what I mean. No this will not be a complete thesis because I receive no benefit in doing so (monetary compensation).

There are roles FYI, just not the ones that exist in typical mmorpg garbage.

Anet’s concept and direction on combat is obvious.

Bread.7516:

If you dislike doing damage do not play action games.

People don’t dislike doing damage they dislike rewards only for doing damage.
This topic is about reward only for doing damage.

kristof.7182:

Bread.7516:

If you dislike doing damage do not play action games.

People don’t dislike doing damage they dislike rewards only for doing damage.
This topic is about reward only for doing damage.

Loot and rewards require so little damage to get the “tag” even in nomads u can still get full credit easily.

Just play with necro mark AoE-spam and then play as stricte support role and you’ll understand.

kristof.7182:

Just play with necro mark AoE-spam and then play as stricte support role and you’ll understand.

Are you talking about loot and drops? Or people not wanting certain roles in their party?

Because if you;re talking about loot and drops (tag kill credit) necro mark aoe spam will easily get the credit. literally all your weapon skills does some form of damage.

Loot is a reward too.

I disagree with, ‘rewards require so little damage […] even in nomads u can still get full credit easily.’. GW2 rewards only damage. If you’re going to make small events with zerg and you’ll rez and heal isntead of doing damage you get only bronze or silver medal (for few hits).

Necro AoE-spam will get more bags of loot than support role with boons, healing and rezzing players.

No, they won’t. GW2 is a cheap, dumbed-down sequel of GW1. It’s not the fault of ANet, though, but rather the times and following expectations. Everything, nowadays, is made to please the biggest crowd possible, hence easy content.

kristof.7182:

Just play with necro mark AoE-spam and then play as stricte support role and you’ll understand.

Irony of Ironies is Staff isnt a damage focused weapon, dagger is the Major Necro DPS..

Staff is a support/Crowd Control weapon primarily.

So Ironically the example you just gave is how play Support / Control can be pretty rewarding too.

I’m seriously sick of fanboys like you. You can’t comment anything because “you’re stupid hater, don’t play if you don’t like”.

Staff is for condition DAMAGE and you know what I meant. Why community here is so bad? Why we can’t speak like normal people? It’s really sad.

Someone doesn’t know the difference between maximizing tagging and mazimizing dps…kitten.

“GW2 rewards only damage” Someone can’t read… how kitty.
I’m just quitting this forum. There’s too many fanboys. I’m so happy that reddit is full of normal players.

kristof.7182:

Loot is a reward too.

I disagree with, ‘rewards require so little damage […] even in nomads u can still get full credit easily.’. GW2 rewards only damage. If you’re going to make small events with zerg and you’ll rez and heal isntead of doing damage you get only bronze or silver medal (for few hits).

Necro AoE-spam will get more bags of loot than support role with boons, healing and rezzing players.

I disagree with this unless it;s all you do, which the bulk would be ressing players because the amount of support and heals you dish out is not that many where the rest of the time you could have dealt some damage rather than just ressing everyone.

Even if you pop all your support skills there should be enough time to deal damage and get the gold credit.

Basically look at it from the view point of how combat medics work in the field, they still participate in the field where they actually still shoot with the guns they carry -surgeons stay in camp.

If you;re looking for a dedicated healer role then this game explicitly tells you that there is no such thing. If you’re looking for support roles within a team then they already exist, optimized groups just make do with the bare minimum to increase efficiency.

kristof.7182:

“GW2 rewards only damage” Someone can’t read… how kitty.
I’m just quitting this forum. There’s too many fanboys. I’m so happy that reddit is full of normal players.

This is about a “do you want to hear what I have to say or just what you wanted to hear?” type of response

Reddit is the worst place to find discussions on opposing opinions.

kristof.7182:

I’m seriously sick of fanboys like you. You can’t comment anything because “you’re stupid hater, don’t play if you don’t like”.

Staff is for condition DAMAGE and you know what I meant. Why community here is so bad? Why we can’t speak like normal people? It’s really sad.

personal attacks dont change facts. and for clarifications I never said anything like “you’re stupid hater, don’t play if you don’t like”., I only stated your example actually shows how its not all about damage because necro staff is not a weapon meant for damage its meant for support and control. The damage it does, including conditional damage is small compared to the other necro weapons.

Necro Staff skills:

Necrotic Grasp – 246 direct damage
Mark of Blood – 73 direct damage, 3 stacks of bleed , Regen for 6 seconds
Chilblains – 185 direct damage, chilled for 4s, poison for 6 seconds
Putrid mark – 444 direct damage, transfers conditions to foes
Repear mark 92 direct damage, Fear for 1s

compare that with Dagger / dagger for direct damage:
Necrotic Slash – 940 direct damage
Life Siphon – 909 direct damage + 202 heal
Dark pact – 252 direct damage, immobilize for 3s
deadly swarm – 208 direct damage -blind
Enfeebling Blood – 168 direct damage, 2 stacks of bleed, 6s of weakness

or even Scepter / Dagger for Condition Damage
Blood Curse – 404 direct damage + 2 stacks of bleed and 1 stack of posion
Graspic Dead – 235 direct damage + 3 stacks of bleed and 5s crippled
Feast of Corruption – 371 direct damage + 8% extra damage for each condition on foe
deadly swarm – 208 direct damage -blind
Enfeebling Blood – 168 direct damage, 2 stacks of bleed, 6s of weakness

So in all a single staff rotation in terms of damage inflicts 1040 direct damage, 3 stacks of bleed and 1 of poison

Dagger / Dagger inflicts 2477 direct damage and 2 stacks of bleeds

Scepter / Dagger inflicts 1386 direct damage, 7 stacks of bleed, 1 stack of posion and weakness

Again no one is preventing you from speaking, your opinion is just valid as anyone else. That being said your argument is damage is all that counts yet you gave an example how useful a weapon who’s primary function is not damage is at tagging mobs and giving you loot. And you’re right it is useful because like some have been trying to say for quite a while nothing in Gw2 is designed to be the one stop shop. You just got tools and they’re useful or not depending how you use them.

Galen Grey.4709:

kristof.7182:

Just play with necro mark AoE-spam and then play as stricte support role and you’ll understand.

Irony of Ironies is Staff isnt a damage focused weapon, dagger is the Major Necro DPS..

Staff is a support/Crowd Control weapon primarily.

So Ironically the example you just gave is how play Support / Control can be pretty rewarding too.

then why am i doing more damage with my staff?
no really, what i do with my staff against whole groups makes dagger pale in comparison, and daggers are single target focused.

sorudo.9054:

Galen Grey.4709:

kristof.7182:

Just play with necro mark AoE-spam and then play as stricte support role and you’ll understand.

Irony of Ironies is Staff isnt a damage focused weapon, dagger is the Major Necro DPS..

Staff is a support/Crowd Control weapon primarily.

So Ironically the example you just gave is how play Support / Control can be pretty rewarding too.

then why am i doing more damage with my staff?
no really, what i do with my staff against whole groups makes dagger pale in comparison, and daggers are single target focused.

Dagger is indeed single target focus but not scepter / dagger. Add in Epidemic to the mix and you shouldnt be doing more damage then if you were using your staff.

Not that staff is useless, I love it kittene it a lot myself but mainly for support and control if your intention is to do raw damage staff isnt really the best choice.

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

This is where you are wrong…

ANet provides the tools. The environment provides the demand. The community responds…

The ball for a more diverse/complex game is on a ANet side. One build to rule them all is what makes this game flawed and basic in my book.

Mesket.5728:

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

This is where you are wrong…

ANet provides the tools. The environment provides the demand. The community responds…

The ball for a more diverse/complex game is on a ANet side. One build to rule them all is what makes this game flawed and basic in my book.

Is it really the environment that you mean or rather artificial restrictions though? I mean if the environment inflicts conditions doesnt that create the need for condition removal? if the environment inflicts damage doesnt that create the need for healing / crowd control?

Are you sure the “problem” is not that the environment doesnt mandate these things by like say making it impossible to remove conditions for most players thus create an need for support characters?

I personally think DigitalKirin is right in that this is a game where you’re free to take the path you want to take. That means its up to the players to choose what they want.
Its something like imagine a situation in which all cars are free of charge and there are no road licenses and no fuel costs. most people would i image go for sports cars but then they’re complaining that there is no need for SUVs any more and they want a compelling reason to choose an SUV over a sports car even though in reality they’re still would be (an SUV can carry more people / stuff then a typical sports car would, they’re arguably safer to travel in and perhaps even more comfortable.)

kristof.7182:

“GW2 rewards only damage” Someone can’t read… how kitty.
I’m just quitting this forum. There’s too many fanboys. I’m so happy that reddit is full of normal players.

It’s like asking someone to drink a well with a teacup…

Do you or do you not understand what tagging is and how it differentiates from maximizing dps? Your posting indicates otherwise.

Bread.7516:

Reddit is the worst place to find discussions on opposing opinions.

Easy to avoid dissonance when you can create custom echo chambers, isn’kitten

Galen Grey.4709:

Mesket.5728:

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

This is where you are wrong…

ANet provides the tools. The environment provides the demand. The community responds…

The ball for a more diverse/complex game is on a ANet side. One build to rule them all is what makes this game flawed and basic in my book.

Is it really the environment that you mean or rather artificial restrictions though? I mean if the environment inflicts conditions doesnt that create the need for condition removal? if the environment inflicts damage doesnt that create the need for healing / crowd control?

The fact that a full zerk player can be as supportive as a full “insert whatever support gear you have in mind” proves the support role flawed and it drags the game design along with it. Dungeon design and combat design is pretty shallow and basic. This is the easiest MMORPG out there (and a medium to hardcore ARCADE depending on how much you solo).

As long as a full team of zerks can endure conditions and bypass those difficulties then the environment is not demanding a support role like you propose so I stand correct.

Environment demands nothing that is why it leaves room for full zerk teams to exceed.

The environment demands, in GW2 it demands nothing, so the community respond with the most devastating gear cause defense is not necessary/demanded.

Not just dps, but melee-dps. If we’re supposed to play with the same gear (and so far, in pve, I don’t see that any class really goes with anything but berserker – with the same few rune/sigil sets) – then why not go back to ‘the original dream’ of no gear/stats, & make us all basic dps? It might as well be just a trait-based choice & drop gear differences altogether. Why shove more ‘gear based progression’ at us at all?

Personally, when I play more than one class (and I usually do), I like them to play differently. I like a straight dps, a tactical dps, classes that can take more hits & do less damage in exchange, & characters that focus more on supporting others. That doesn’t have to be tank/healer/dps, & originally, I thought GW2 was set up nicely to do that. It doesn’t seem impossible – or didn’t, until I saw how this game evolved.

Maybe there are some classes that have more than one ‘advised build.’ But from the stickies on this & other forums, I haven’t seen them.

Mortifer.2946:

I’m sorry for my post on the first page. You were right. PVE in GW2 is about zerker stats, nothing more. Anet wants us to use zerker as there is time counter on any major boss event.

Other stat combos are for PVP and partially for WvW where you need some more health to survive mass aoe fights.

//so much fun QQ//

That’s another good point.
If GW2 wasn’t only about DPS, then why is there always a timer on world bosses? A healer and support build would be useless.

nexxe.7081:

Mortifer.2946:

I’m sorry for my post on the first page. You were right. PVE in GW2 is about zerker stats, nothing more. Anet wants us to use zerker as there is time counter on any major boss event.

Other stat combos are for PVP and partially for WvW where you need some more health to survive mass aoe fights.

//so much fun QQ//

That’s another good point.
If GW2 wasn’t only about DPS, then why is there always a timer on world bosses? A healer and support build would be useless.

What’s funny is that that guy doesn’t even realize you can’t crit a world boss…making 2/3’s of the Berserker stat set useless. Soldier’s rules the day there. Although, that level of knowledge about the game is something I’ve come to expect from the “MUH NONDPS BUILD” town criers.

Mesket.5728:

Galen Grey.4709:

Mesket.5728:

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

This is where you are wrong…

ANet provides the tools. The environment provides the demand. The community responds…

The ball for a more diverse/complex game is on a ANet side. One build to rule them all is what makes this game flawed and basic in my book.

Is it really the environment that you mean or rather artificial restrictions though? I mean if the environment inflicts conditions doesnt that create the need for condition removal? if the environment inflicts damage doesnt that create the need for healing / crowd control?

The fact that a full zerk player can be as supportive as a full “insert whatever support gear you have in mind” proves the support role flawed and it drags the game design along with it. Dungeon design and combat design is pretty shallow and basic. This is the easiest MMORPG out there (and a medium to hardcore ARCADE depending on how much you solo).

As long as a full team of zerks can endure conditions and bypass those difficulties then the environment is not demanding a support role like you propose so I stand correct.

Environment demands nothing that is why it leaves room for full zerk teams to exceed.

The environment demands, in GW2 it demands nothing, so the community respond with the most devastating gear cause defense is not necessary/demanded.

It doesn’t prove the support role is flawed at all, it just proves ANet right in the fact they wanted players to be able to support, control and DPS.

I wish these people wanting their zero DPS cleric builds to be good would realise they’re playing the wrong game and the unholy trinity is that way.

maha.7902:

Mesket.5728:

Galen Grey.4709:

Mesket.5728:

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

This is where you are wrong…

ANet provides the tools. The environment provides the demand. The community responds…

The ball for a more diverse/complex game is on a ANet side. One build to rule them all is what makes this game flawed and basic in my book.

Is it really the environment that you mean or rather artificial restrictions though? I mean if the environment inflicts conditions doesnt that create the need for condition removal? if the environment inflicts damage doesnt that create the need for healing / crowd control?

The fact that a full zerk player can be as supportive as a full “insert whatever support gear you have in mind” proves the support role flawed and it drags the game design along with it. Dungeon design and combat design is pretty shallow and basic. This is the easiest MMORPG out there (and a medium to hardcore ARCADE depending on how much you solo).

As long as a full team of zerks can endure conditions and bypass those difficulties then the environment is not demanding a support role like you propose so I stand correct.

Environment demands nothing that is why it leaves room for full zerk teams to exceed.

The environment demands, in GW2 it demands nothing, so the community respond with the most devastating gear cause defense is not necessary/demanded.

It doesn’t prove the support role is flawed at all, it just proves ANet right in the fact they wanted players to be able to support, control and DPS.

I wish these people wanting their zero DPS cleric builds to be good would realise they’re playing the wrong game and the unholy trinity is that way.

Yes it does. First MMORPG ever, Ultima Online; already had this concept. One character could do anything if trained properly. He could heal, buff, be a warrior a wizard, all in one. It was changed for the sake of team play. GW2 just went 17 years backwards in game designing.

You’re free to play how you want.

You aren’t free to be accepted by people who don’t agree with you.

Start your own party. some people like Zerker, some people don’t.

If you’re going to hit like a wet noodle in exchange for support when you can support -and- hit like a firetruck (which would save time for people that have other things to do), you aren’t supporting the party as well as you should be.

I’m not into the “must be meta, must be zerk, otherwise gtfo” mentality.

However, I’d hate to take 10 more minutes to complete a dungeon that I’ve done 100 times before and take very little damage in because I know where to stand or where to dodge, simply to accommodate someone that “wants to heal me.”

Especially when I could do that myself. I’d opt for the quicker run.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

You’re free to play how you want.

You aren’t free to be accepted by people who don’t agree with you.

Start your own party. some people like Zerker, some people don’t.

Your answer is like 18 months old to this discussion. Your point was passed over long time ago, forming a party and acceptance is not the issue.

Mesket.5728:

maha.7902:

Mesket.5728:

Galen Grey.4709:

Mesket.5728:

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

This is where you are wrong…

ANet provides the tools. The environment provides the demand. The community responds…

The ball for a more diverse/complex game is on a ANet side. One build to rule them all is what makes this game flawed and basic in my book.

Is it really the environment that you mean or rather artificial restrictions though? I mean if the environment inflicts conditions doesnt that create the need for condition removal? if the environment inflicts damage doesnt that create the need for healing / crowd control?

The fact that a full zerk player can be as supportive as a full “insert whatever support gear you have in mind” proves the support role flawed and it drags the game design along with it. Dungeon design and combat design is pretty shallow and basic. This is the easiest MMORPG out there (and a medium to hardcore ARCADE depending on how much you solo).

As long as a full team of zerks can endure conditions and bypass those difficulties then the environment is not demanding a support role like you propose so I stand correct.

Environment demands nothing that is why it leaves room for full zerk teams to exceed.

The environment demands, in GW2 it demands nothing, so the community respond with the most devastating gear cause defense is not necessary/demanded.

It doesn’t prove the support role is flawed at all, it just proves ANet right in the fact they wanted players to be able to support, control and DPS.

I wish these people wanting their zero DPS cleric builds to be good would realise they’re playing the wrong game and the unholy trinity is that way.

Yes it does. First MMORPG ever, Ultima Online; already had this concept. One character could do anything if trained properly. He could heal, buff, be a warrior a wizard, all in one. It was changed for the sake of team play. GW2 just went 17 years backwards in game designing.

let me rephrase. you think it is flawed. As seen in game by speed clearers though, anet succeeded in their goal of making it possible to support, dps and control at the same time. What this demonstrates is that the support role in gw2 is working as intended (as in, you can perform it in addition to two other roles) but that you simply don’t like it. So to answer the OP – the non DPS roles in this game are crucial, LoSing, offensive buffing and damage mitigation are all crucial support and control aspects required to make it possible to deal as much damage as you can.

Lostwingman.5034:

nexxe.7081:

Mortifer.2946:

I’m sorry for my post on the first page. You were right. PVE in GW2 is about zerker stats, nothing more. Anet wants us to use zerker as there is time counter on any major boss event.

Other stat combos are for PVP and partially for WvW where you need some more health to survive mass aoe fights.

//so much fun QQ//

That’s another good point.
If GW2 wasn’t only about DPS, then why is there always a timer on world bosses? A healer and support build would be useless.

What’s funny is that that guy doesn’t even realize you can’t crit a world boss…making 2/3’s of the Berserker stat set useless. Soldier’s rules the day there. Although, that level of knowledge about the game is something I’ve come to expect from the “MUH NONDPS BUILD” town criers.

That still doesn’t negate the fact that a support or healer build would be useless. You’re better off going Carrion in that case.

I’ve seen threads like this occur over and over again and every time, I receive a message from a moderator saying a thread I’ve posted in has been moved to the Trash.

Not that the question isn’t a good one to ask, but people have essentially proven over time that a good answer never appears here.

maha.7902:

Mesket.5728:

maha.7902:

Mesket.5728:

Galen Grey.4709:

Mesket.5728:

DigitalKirin.9714:

ANet provides the tools. The community provides the demand.

This is where you are wrong…

ANet provides the tools. The environment provides the demand. The community responds…

The ball for a more diverse/complex game is on a ANet side. One build to rule them all is what makes this game flawed and basic in my book.

Is it really the environment that you mean or rather artificial restrictions though? I mean if the environment inflicts conditions doesnt that create the need for condition removal? if the environment inflicts damage doesnt that create the need for healing / crowd control?

The fact that a full zerk player can be as supportive as a full “insert whatever support gear you have in mind” proves the support role flawed and it drags the game design along with it. Dungeon design and combat design is pretty shallow and basic. This is the easiest MMORPG out there (and a medium to hardcore ARCADE depending on how much you solo).

As long as a full team of zerks can endure conditions and bypass those difficulties then the environment is not demanding a support role like you propose so I stand correct.

Environment demands nothing that is why it leaves room for full zerk teams to exceed.

The environment demands, in GW2 it demands nothing, so the community respond with the most devastating gear cause defense is not necessary/demanded.

It doesn’t prove the support role is flawed at all, it just proves ANet right in the fact they wanted players to be able to support, control and DPS.

I wish these people wanting their zero DPS cleric builds to be good would realise they’re playing the wrong game and the unholy trinity is that way.

Yes it does. First MMORPG ever, Ultima Online; already had this concept. One character could do anything if trained properly. He could heal, buff, be a warrior a wizard, all in one. It was changed for the sake of team play. GW2 just went 17 years backwards in game designing.

let me rephrase. you think it is flawed. As seen in game by speed clearers though, anet succeeded in their goal of making it possible to support, dps and control at the same time. What this demonstrates is that the support role in gw2 is working as intended (as in, you can perform it in addition to two other roles) but that you simply don’t like it. So to answer the OP – the non DPS roles in this game are crucial, LoSing, offensive buffing and damage mitigation are all crucial support and control aspects required to make it possible to deal as much damage as you can.

I love it when equipping one skill in the limited slots they provide totally justifies calling it a role. It shows how much some people know about MMOs and role playing as a whole.

Remember that speed clears exists only because there is actually nothing else in the game left to do or to show how good or bad you play. Its a child’s game, when we can both do the same, lets play who does it faster (not saying it’s wrong or childish, just implying how basic it is).

Mesket.5728:

Yes it does. First MMORPG ever, Ultima Online; already had this concept. One character could do anything if trained properly. He could heal, buff, be a warrior a wizard, all in one. It was changed for the sake of team play. GW2 just went 17 years backwards in game designing.

Not the first MMORPG, but we’ll agree that it is for the purposes of the argument. Which is still erroneous, since one character could not do “anything” if trained properly . . . he could use the spells (heals, buffs, travel) but that used up one of seven skills you could master. IF you wanted to add combat to that, there were three more skills, leaving three more for “whatever”.

Which means it was unlikely you could do everything, since there were more than three major tradeskills, and taming already took three skills.

Also . . . and finally . . . there was always value in “team play” for UO rather than just being a lone person. Even before they added the strange raid mechanics, there were the Treasure Maps which demanded at least two people to do them properly. And the higher ones? Bring friends.

If you want to go back further to the first MMORPG, though, it was a design decision in that one to prevent anyone from realistically mastering everything, and at most there was a total mastery of two skillsets and a splash of a third.

So, no, it’s not quite “seventeen years backwards” by virtue of UO or earlier allowing people to have multiple roles on the same character. It’s shorter than that, since technically you could do that in EQ.

nexxe.7081:

Lostwingman.5034:

nexxe.7081:

Mortifer.2946:

I’m sorry for my post on the first page. You were right. PVE in GW2 is about zerker stats, nothing more. Anet wants us to use zerker as there is time counter on any major boss event.

Other stat combos are for PVP and partially for WvW where you need some more health to survive mass aoe fights.

//so much fun QQ//

That’s another good point.
If GW2 wasn’t only about DPS, then why is there always a timer on world bosses? A healer and support build would be useless.

What’s funny is that that guy doesn’t even realize you can’t crit a world boss…making 2/3’s of the Berserker stat set useless. Soldier’s rules the day there. Although, that level of knowledge about the game is something I’ve come to expect from the “MUH NONDPS BUILD” town criers.

That still doesn’t negate the fact that a support or healer build would be useless. You’re better off going Carrion in that case.

Someone who sets themselves up to ONLY support or ONLY heal is not utilizing their skills fully. Boon distribution, rallying, field laying, utility usage, reviving from downed, there are more things to do non-dps than just “pretend I’m a healer dropping Healing Rain”.

Lostwingman.5034:

nexxe.7081:

Lostwingman.5034:

nexxe.7081:

Mortifer.2946:

I’m sorry for my post on the first page. You were right. PVE in GW2 is about zerker stats, nothing more. Anet wants us to use zerker as there is time counter on any major boss event.

Other stat combos are for PVP and partially for WvW where you need some more health to survive mass aoe fights.

//so much fun QQ//

That’s another good point.
If GW2 wasn’t only about DPS, then why is there always a timer on world bosses? A healer and support build would be useless.

What’s funny is that that guy doesn’t even realize you can’t crit a world boss…making 2/3’s of the Berserker stat set useless. Soldier’s rules the day there. Although, that level of knowledge about the game is something I’ve come to expect from the “MUH NONDPS BUILD” town criers.

That still doesn’t negate the fact that a support or healer build would be useless. You’re better off going Carrion in that case.

Someone who sets themselves up to ONLY support or ONLY heal is not utilizing their skills fully. Boon distribution, rallying, field laying, utility usage, reviving from downed, there are more things to do non-dps than just “pretend I’m a healer dropping Healing Rain”.

None of that is required though. Players are supposed to be self-reliant on their own survival. They have all the tools at their disposal. That’s kind of the point of the thread, whether it’s DPS or not.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mesket.5728:

Yes it does. First MMORPG ever, Ultima Online; already had this concept. One character could do anything if trained properly. He could heal, buff, be a warrior a wizard, all in one. It was changed for the sake of team play. GW2 just went 17 years backwards in game designing.

Not the first MMORPG, but we’ll agree that it is for the purposes of the argument. Which is still erroneous, since one character could not do “anything” if trained properly . . . he could use the spells (heals, buffs, travel) but that used up one of seven skills you could master. IF you wanted to add combat to that, there were three more skills, leaving three more for “whatever”.

Which means it was unlikely you could do everything, since there were more than three major tradeskills, and taming already took three skills.

Also . . . and finally . . . there was always value in “team play” for UO rather than just being a lone person. Even before they added the strange raid mechanics, there were the Treasure Maps which demanded at least two people to do them properly. And the higher ones? Bring friends.

If you want to go back further to the first MMORPG, though, it was a design decision in that one to prevent anyone from realistically mastering everything, and at most there was a total mastery of two skillsets and a splash of a third.

So, no, it’s not quite “seventeen years backwards” by virtue of UO or earlier allowing people to have multiple roles on the same character. It’s shorter than that, since technically you could do that in EQ.

It was the first game to use the term MMORPG in 1997 (same year I started playing it). Of course the 700% skill limitation won’t let you use every single skill in game and exceed on it, but having no “classes” (and leaving tradeskills aside) made it for everyone to follow the same road soon after (old school min maxers setting “opitmal” builds, is as old as playing RPGs, specially for PKs like myself, oh man i miss it). In UO you still had full mages and full warriors a bit apart from each other or like you said, treasure hunting required someone trained in something else than fighting bringing at least 1 other role to the table but here… oh man… the encyclopedia of GW2 class builds is a one line book.

Mesket.5728:

It was the first game to use the term MMORPG in 1997 (same year I started playing it).

Doesn’t matter, the first MMORPG by the definition of the term came before UO. Richard Garriott coined the term, but others existed beforehand. I played at least two of those.

Of course the 700% skill limitation won’t let you use every single skill in game and exceed on it, but having no “classes” (and leaving tradeskills aside) made it for everyone to follow the same road soon after (old school min maxers setting “opitmal” builds, is as old as playing RPGs, specially for PKs like myself, oh man i miss it). In UO you still had full mages and full warriors a bit apart from each other or like you said, treasure hunting required someone trained in something else than fighting bringing at least 1 other role to the table but here… oh man…

Treasure Hunting really, reliably, needed three people minimum at third-rank. At fifth rank, four or more was better.

And while there were no classes, there were “archetypes” which people fell into. Mages, Halberd warriors, archers, tamers, and some blurred hybrids where skills got swapped to try to do something unexpected. But it was rather the same when it came to PvP – always have your Magic Reflection up, and hope you got the drop on someone rather than being dropped on.

As for the PvE play, it was even more anemic than what anyone claims GW2’s is like. When I can watch someone no-risk kill balrons in a minute . . . there’s something wrong.

the encyclopedia of GW2 class builds is a one line book.

It’s still better than UO, though not as fun to experiment with.

Hayashi.3416:

I’ve seen threads like this occur over and over again and every time, I receive a message from a moderator saying a thread I’ve posted in has been moved to the Trash.

Not that the question isn’t a good one to ask, but people have essentially proven over time that a good answer never appears here.

I don’t think so. What it proves is:

• the issue is charged and that posters have a hard time remaining on topic and civil
• people are entrenched in their positions and no argument, good or bad, is going to change their mind

Mesket.5728:

The fact that a full zerk player can be as supportive as a full “insert whatever support gear you have in mind” proves the support role flawed and it drags the game design along with it.

This isnt correct though. A full zerk player can do support but not as well as someone with gear and traits targeted at support. You can fill each role but you’re not as effective at all roles all the time, your build choices shift the balance there.

Mesket.5728:

Dungeon design and combat design is pretty shallow and basic. This is the easiest MMORPG out there (and a medium to hardcore ARCADE depending on how much you solo).

I agree with you there, for the most part the game is indeed too easy and could use some difficult content. Just dont think this has anything to do with the role setup though, it just that Arenanet wanted the game accessible to everyone even to people who didnt want to spend time gearing up. On top of that they added a new gear tier making what was already easy, easier. On top of that still they removed the MF stats which again indirectly empowered players. I think that was a pretty bad move on their side, I think the game would have benefited greatly if MF runes where made brutal (say downleveled you by 1 level each) but provided meaningful rewards.

Mesket.5728:

As long as a full team of zerks can endure conditions and bypass those difficulties then the environment is not demanding a support role like you propose so I stand correct.

Environment demands nothing that is why it leaves room for full zerk teams to exceed.

Thats kinda the point of total freedom. At the end of the day in a fight what you want is to kill your opponent and the more damage you do the better. No contest there. But freedom is freedom, if you enjoy a different play style you can do that and you will bring the advantages of that to the group. Your zerker team will be better equiped to handle conditions and survive a mistake here and there if one of their team mates focuses on support for example. You’re trading in some firepower for some survivability. Whats wrong with that?

Mesket.5728:

The environment demands, in GW2 it demands nothing, so the community respond with the most devastating gear cause defense is not necessary/demanded.

Its their choice and they’re free to make it, but not everyone likes to be squishy some want to be sturdy, others dont find dpsing all the time fullfilling and want to support. Some people enjoy team dynamics and like to boost their team damage and debuff the enemy to receive more damage. Their play style is just as valid.

nexxe.7081:

Mortifer.2946:

I’m sorry for my post on the first page. You were right. PVE in GW2 is about zerker stats, nothing more. Anet wants us to use zerker as there is time counter on any major boss event.

Other stat combos are for PVP and partially for WvW where you need some more health to survive mass aoe fights.

//so much fun QQ//

That’s another good point.
If GW2 wasn’t only about DPS, then why is there always a timer on world bosses? A healer and support build would be useless.

because without that timer its practically impossible to loose to a world boss.
The fight becomes a total joke.

Timer or not save for tequalt and wurm I never had a problem bringing a boss down and I dont play pure DPS with any of my characters. In fact if anything the timer is way to generous.

but lets assume its actually so fine tuned that world bosses fail more then they succeed would healing and support be useless then? How much DPS does a dead DPS dealer deal? how about support? would not a full stack of might and the occasional time warp make existing dps deal far more damage then they would with no support?
Added Survivability and boons to deal extra damage are never really useless.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

You’re free to play how you want.

You aren’t free to be accepted by people who don’t agree with you.

Start your own party. some people like Zerker, some people don’t.

If you’re going to hit like a wet noodle in exchange for support when you can support -and- hit like a firetruck (which would save time for people that have other things to do), you aren’t supporting the party as well as you should be.

I’m not into the “must be meta, must be zerk, otherwise gtfo” mentality.

However, I’d hate to take 10 more minutes to complete a dungeon that I’ve done 100 times before and take very little damage in because I know where to stand or where to dodge, simply to accommodate someone that “wants to heal me.”

Especially when I could do that myself. I’d opt for the quicker run.

This goes both ways though… zerker makes you squishy so if you form your pug of zerkers and get a couple of people who dont know well where to stand and when to dodge you’ll probably regret not taking the person who wanted to heal you and wish all you had to endure is an extra 10 minutes

But that said there is nothing wrong with stating you want to setup a full zerker party.

Lostwingman.5034:

nexxe.7081:

Mortifer.2946:

I’m sorry for my post on the first page. You were right. PVE in GW2 is about zerker stats, nothing more. Anet wants us to use zerker as there is time counter on any major boss event.

Other stat combos are for PVP and partially for WvW where you need some more health to survive mass aoe fights.

//so much fun QQ//

That’s another good point.
If GW2 wasn’t only about DPS, then why is there always a timer on world bosses? A healer and support build would be useless.

What’s funny is that that guy doesn’t even realize you can’t crit a world boss…making 2/3’s of the Berserker stat set useless. Soldier’s rules the day there. Although, that level of knowledge about the game is something I’ve come to expect from the “MUH NONDPS BUILD” town criers.

You know that there are not only bosses during the events, right? °)

Galen Grey.4709:

nexxe.7081:

Mortifer.2946:

I’m sorry for my post on the first page. You were right. PVE in GW2 is about zerker stats, nothing more. Anet wants us to use zerker as there is time counter on any major boss event.

Other stat combos are for PVP and partially for WvW where you need some more health to survive mass aoe fights.

//so much fun QQ//

That’s another good point.
If GW2 wasn’t only about DPS, then why is there always a timer on world bosses? A healer and support build would be useless.

because without that timer its practically impossible to loose to a world boss.
The fight becomes a total joke.

Timer or not save for tequalt and wurm I never had a problem bringing a boss down and I dont play pure DPS with any of my characters. In fact if anything the timer is way to generous.

but lets assume its actually so fine tuned that world bosses fail more then they succeed would healing and support be useless then? How much DPS does a dead DPS dealer deal? how about support? would not a full stack of might and the occasional time warp make existing dps deal far more damage then they would with no support?
Added Survivability and boons to deal extra damage are never really useless.

That’s the problem though. The world bosses don’t give random players a chance to organize or try out different builds and strategies, because they are on a timer. They favor DPS-centric builds/gear/traits/sigils,etc. The more damage, the faster you can kill it before the timer runs out. If the encounter was changed, without a timer, and if some other mechanics were introduced, that required different support traits/gear/etc., with combo fields from each class, then it would be more strategic to use other builds and strategies. Asking for players to depend on others is a lost cause in GW2 though. Everyone is too used to the zerg mentality, and self-reliance that GW2 has fostered.

As it is now, most of them favor DPS builds, whether it’s zerker or some other condition build. People don’t need to rely on others to support or heal them, since they already have the tools to do it themselves. Why drag the zerg down with full support or healing builds, when it’s not necessary? Self-reliance is the true meta in GW2. Combos, healing, and support, are just optional, except in very few cases in fractals or explorable dungeons.

To be fair though, Anet did try to address the issues with the revamped Teq and Wurm encounters.

WvW and SPvP is a whole different story too. That’s where support and healing, and other builds really shine.

nexxe.7081:

Galen Grey.4709:

nexxe.7081:

Mortifer.2946:

I’m sorry for my post on the first page. You were right. PVE in GW2 is about zerker stats, nothing more. Anet wants us to use zerker as there is time counter on any major boss event.

Other stat combos are for PVP and partially for WvW where you need some more health to survive mass aoe fights.

//so much fun QQ//

That’s another good point.
If GW2 wasn’t only about DPS, then why is there always a timer on world bosses? A healer and support build would be useless.

because without that timer its practically impossible to loose to a world boss.
The fight becomes a total joke.

Timer or not save for tequalt and wurm I never had a problem bringing a boss down and I dont play pure DPS with any of my characters. In fact if anything the timer is way to generous.

but lets assume its actually so fine tuned that world bosses fail more then they succeed would healing and support be useless then? How much DPS does a dead DPS dealer deal? how about support? would not a full stack of might and the occasional time warp make existing dps deal far more damage then they would with no support?
Added Survivability and boons to deal extra damage are never really useless.

That’s the problem though. The world bosses don’t give random players a chance to organize or try out different builds and strategies, because they are on a timer. They favor DPS-centric builds/gear/traits/sigils,etc. The more damage, the faster you can kill it before the timer runs out. If the encounter was changed, without a timer, and if some other mechanics were introduced, that required different support traits/gear/etc., with combo fields from each class, then it would be more strategic to use other builds and strategies. Asking for players to depend on others is a lost cause in GW2 though. Everyone is too used to the zerg mentality, and self-reliance that GW2 has fostered.

As it is now, most of them favor DPS builds, whether it’s zerker or some other condition build. People don’t need to rely on others to support or heal them, since they already have the tools to do it themselves. Why drag the zerg down with full support or healing builds, when it’s not necessary? Self-reliance is the true meta in GW2. Combos, healing, and support, are just optional, except in very few cases in fractals or explorable dungeons.

To be fair though, Anet did try to address the issues with the revamped Teq and Wurm encounters.

WvW and SPvP is a whole different story too. That’s where support and healing, and other builds really shine.

its a numbers game and it always has been. self reliance can take you only so far. You can heal up X damage per second, with support you heal y(x) damage per second
self reliance for support might boost your damage an extra 20%, with support it goes up 80% etc…

No character can inflict a full stack of vulnerability, as well as full stack of might, fury, retaliation and quickness on themselves.. and thats also focusing exclusively on pure DPS.

self-reliance is definitely designed to be possible but it isnt designed to be optimal.
a full stack of vulnerability increases damage dealt to mob by 25%
quickness increases damage dealt by 50%,
and a full stack of might increase damage by about 30%
fury increases critical chance by 20%
and retaliation does free damage as you’re attacked.

isnt that worth a few people doing less damage themselves to boost damage for the whole group?

The world boss timers are actually fairly generous most times, even with long hauls like Claw of Jormag and potentially the Ulgoth. So, I don’t know if full DPS orientation is even really necessary . . . even in the Claw of Jormag, it’s somewhat more necessary to focus on getting the stuns to happen.

Ulgoth, it’s more a matter of “did the pre-events need to be done”.

People need to understand that GW2 offers the unique opportunity for all types of players to play the game the way they feel is best.

A lot of GW2’s player base are reward oriented and as such will play whatever gets them those rewards the fastest.
You can easily see why a lot of players choose to play this way if you look at the average price of Ascended/Legendary tier gear and some of the really rare and unique skins.

A smaller fraction of the player base care more about their experience and “roleplaying” and as such aren’t so driven by rewards – usually running whatever build and gear they feel suits them and not caring much about efficiency.

People fail to realize that since all gear types can complete the content the game is actually in its least restrictive form – you don’t need x gear or x build to complete content in GW2.

Restrictions come from players – and usually derive from the fact that players want to play with like-minded individuals and will usually try to convert push away those of a non-similar thinking style.

No matter how you change the game – you won’t change human nature.

Also regarding the poster above saying World Bosses shouldn’t be on a timer – the idea is terrible.
You might think people will be tempted into creating new strategies and whatnot but since there’s literally no time limit there’s no reason not to just afk the boss while using your #1 skill.
You can literally come in – hit it a few times – then run off to do gathering or other things while other players mop it up. There’s no incentive to get it done and participate with 100% of what you can do when you can just tag and afk.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mesket.5728:

It was the first game to use the term MMORPG in 1997 (same year I started playing it).

Doesn’t matter, the first MMORPG by the definition of the term came before UO. Richard Garriott coined the term, but others existed beforehand. I played at least two of those.

Of course the 700% skill limitation won’t let you use every single skill in game and exceed on it, but having no “classes” (and leaving tradeskills aside) made it for everyone to follow the same road soon after (old school min maxers setting “opitmal” builds, is as old as playing RPGs, specially for PKs like myself, oh man i miss it). In UO you still had full mages and full warriors a bit apart from each other or like you said, treasure hunting required someone trained in something else than fighting bringing at least 1 other role to the table but here… oh man…

Treasure Hunting really, reliably, needed three people minimum at third-rank. At fifth rank, four or more was better.

And while there were no classes, there were “archetypes” which people fell into. Mages, Halberd warriors, archers, tamers, and some blurred hybrids where skills got swapped to try to do something unexpected. But it was rather the same when it came to PvP – always have your Magic Reflection up, and hope you got the drop on someone rather than being dropped on.

As for the PvE play, it was even more anemic than what anyone claims GW2’s is like. When I can watch someone no-risk kill balrons in a minute . . . there’s something wrong.

the encyclopedia of GW2 class builds is a one line book.

It’s still better than UO, though not as fun to experiment with.

My point wasn’t that UO was better where GW2 fail. It was that GW2 didn’t bring something new by removing the holy trinity and providing players freedom to build as they want. It is something as old, probably older, as the example provided (UO). But, the fact that we can actually compare them and open debate on which one is better, sums up to my point… why are we comparing games almost 2 decades apart? (design wise, of course not mechanic and graphic wise)

Galen Grey.4709:

Mesket.5728:

The fact that a full zerk player can be as supportive as a full “insert whatever support gear you have in mind” proves the support role flawed and it drags the game design along with it.

This isnt correct though. A full zerk player can do support but not as well as someone with gear and traits targeted at support. You can fill each role but you’re not as effective at all roles all the time, your build choices shift the balance there.

No, you are right, efficiency wise they are not on par for support. But unfortunately, for support, you get nothing for over gearing. You won’t clean more conditions that the ones being applied. Support needed ends where the content says it ends. This is where in my opinion is wrong. You can’t make the party better because support options are extremely limited.

Follow me on this thought, in GW2 3 roles where promoted: Damage, Control and Support… where the other classic 2 roles (heal and tank) were excluded. I find this amazing and I would’ve loved to see that implemented. For some cosmic reason I can’t figure out why, they placed stats for the roles excluded (tank and heals) on gear but there is not a single stat that works for support and control (consider healing aside from support if healing is not a role). This is the big design flaw I always criticize. Why are there no stat that increase the potency of my buffs? not the duration… the strength of my Might or the crit chance of my Fury. You may say this would be OP now, but this should’ve be thought during the game design and balance accordingly. Why is Defiant a stack and not a bar? if it was a bar, a player with a stat dedicated to control would’ve been better at CC than a character without said stat. A guy full in control stat could knock down a boss with half its defiant bar while other player would’ve only reduce that bar in 10% (random example out of my hat). See my point? they didn’t change the rules of MMO to innovate, they just went back to when it was simpler. This doesn’t mean it’s open for more people, it means just that, its simpler.

Galen Grey.4709:

Mesket.5728:

As long as a full team of zerks can endure conditions and bypass those difficulties then the environment is not demanding a support role like you propose so I stand correct.

Environment demands nothing that is why it leaves room for full zerk teams to exceed.

Thats kinda the point of total freedom. At the end of the day in a fight what you want is to kill your opponent and the more damage you do the better. No contest there. But freedom is freedom, if you enjoy a different play style you can do that and you will bring the advantages of that to the group. Your zerker team will be better equiped to handle conditions and survive a mistake here and there if one of their team mates focuses on support for example. You’re trading in some firepower for some survivability. Whats wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with that conceptually. It is wrong in practice. If this idea is well executed, every team composition would have the same efficiency. I know this is a design madness and almost impossible to balance well but it was them who promote this on their manifesto and use it as a flag to sell the game. In my book, they deliver it mediocre.
The game only scales in one way: One Shot hits and bigger and bigger HP pools. That kinda force you into one build at the end and you know the answer.

@Mesket

well yes and no.. you will not clear more conditions true but you will heal more, your conditions will last longer as well as your boons. traits will allow you to do more stuff that fits your role as well. Like say one trait gives me an extra regen I can give with my necro using dodge.

So in part you’re right, not all support and control can be augmented but its not exactly true that none of it can be improved through a build.

Tanks and healer we’rent excluded per-se, they were just prevented from being dedicated. My necro is essentially both a tank and a healer cause thats what I designed him to be, to soak damage and to healer/support. Even damage itself is designed to sustain my tank by using parasitic contagion which essentially heals me for a percentage of the condition damage I inflict. But still I Cannot just be a tank because you just cant be a dedicated healer, just like you cannot really be a dedicated DPS after all. Its essentially impossible to do just damage and no support / control at the very least on yourself.

Doesnt duration automatically increase potency of a boon though? if the mights you apply last for 10s instead of say 8s doesnt that mean your might buff is now 20% more potent?

I do love your idea about defiant though. strictly speaking they dont need to change the whole system to make it work either. what would you think about say someone with enough boon duration to boost a control skill to 1.5 its base duration gets to remove 2 stacks instead of 1. !

Thing is how do you measure efficiency?
A full zerker party gets to kill enemies fastest true but they get to die quicker as well.
so are they more efficient than a party that kills stuff 1/2 as fast but lasts twice as much?
a good mix of zerker and support gets to kill stuff faster then a full zerker party as well in small bursts while the full zerker can sustain its damage indefinitely, which one is the more efficient?
Thing is removing some dps and introducing support and control isnt removing something important and introducing something useless, you’re removing one element and adding another.

Not at all. Scaling doesnt simply increase damage and add bigger bigger hp pools, it adds mob numbers, it adds mob ranks, etc.. The problem is a lot of people love to zerg because its gets them more loot. Most events are designed for up to 10 people and when you go with 50-100 people to tackle an event meant for 10 people the game has no option but to add bigger hp pools. damage can only scale up to a point so hp pools is all it can do really. its not scaling is mediocre its more that people abuse it for rewards

Galen Grey.4709:

Doesnt duration automatically increase potency of a boon though? if the mights you apply last for 10s instead of say 8s doesnt that mean your might buff is now 20% more potent?

Not really, they way the game works now lets you stack 25 mights without struggle and you don’t even need 1% boon duration to make it. We are again the land where on paper their idea was not bad but it was implemented wrong. Still, I think support need a stat that allow players specialize into it and if it was me, I would replace healing for it. If they truly want to remove healers as a role then why do we have a stat for it?

Galen Grey.4709:

Thing is removing some dps and introducing support and control isnt removing something important and introducing something useless, you’re removing one element and adding another.

In the equation it’s not the same. That is why zerk groups are more efficient. Damage stats scale ridiculously better and there are no other stats to increase other roles.

I think the OP has a point and I agree with him. The current game only cares for one role and its damage. The other roles are not developed. If you take all the gear combos and split the stats into groups you will find that most of the if not all falls into 3 categories: Damage, Tank and Healer (trinity brought up by their own stat selection while designing the game). The game really looks like they worked in different departments with poor communication between each other.

I just read this, and my only thoughts are:

1). I used to love gw2 community, now its just feels wrong. Way too much toxicity.

2). Don’t even give a kitten about what others think. If you enjoy your character, play it the way you want it. The material rewards only go so far, and their value will be zero if you quit playing cause the style does not fit you.

3). Dont bother playing with players that do not understand how you want to play. Will only cause trouble to you or to others. Stay away from pug runs with ‘zerk’ on the tag.

4). for farming events, I used to make about 60g per day at CS with a full soldiers set, got a precursor, and a bunch of other niceties.

Bottom line, the only thing that matters is having fun, if you are failing at that.. move away and search for another source of entertainment (I know I did).