With the mesmer downstate now working regardless of whether or not they have a hostile target, how about doing the same for Engineer, Ranger, Warrior, Necro?
The downed states are incredibly unbalanced and some of them need some major reworking.
Let’s go through which classes have some god awful “saving” abilities, by saving i mean abilities that are often tied to the #3 ability in the downed state.
Here’s the good ones
Ranger #3 – The pet will assist in reviving you, this is very strong, the ranger also still has control over his pets abilities, able to change pets and insta-fear for example all while still downed.
Guadian #3 – Places an AoE healing area around you which heals for quite a chunk and affects you even after you’re back up if revived fast enough, very strong.
Warrior #3 – Self rebirth effect with a guaranteed chance at rallying if you kill a target, much stronger than the other classes due to having access to all your skills for a limited time.
When you compare these 3 to the others
Engineer #3 – AoE knockback with mediocre damage.
Elementalist #3 – Crappy root and bleed effect that was a bait and switch back when mist form was on #3 instead.
Mesmer #3 – A DPS Phantasm that backstabs and has very low hp.
Necromancer #3 – Creates a poison field on the target location which does poor condition damage and can easily be walked out of.
The only class I’m on the fence about is the thiefs, on one hand, you know he’s there, but on the other, it can still drop aggro from mobs.
Now i’m not suggesting that the Guardians, Warriors & Rangers downed states be reworked, they’re fine, if you’re left in the downed state long enough for the #3 skill to be active, it should have a chance at bringing you back by assisting you, my point is that if the guardian and engineer were to be put into the same downed state situation, the guardian would have a much easier time at recovering over the engineer.
I suggest that the 5 classes that aren’t the top 3, have their downed state reworked.
Engineer #3 – Possibly place a turret or chug an elixir that increases the speed at which you’re healed, replace the #2 ability with the current #3 explosion.
Mesmer #3 – I’m unsure what to do for this one.
Elementalist #3 – Summons a water field OR a field based on the last element you were attuned to(?)
Necromancer #3 – AoE lifesteal that continues to channel even through DPS, change the #2 skill to an AoE fear effect that is unaffected by the fear damaging trait.
Thief #3 – Keep the stealth component, but also teleport the thief to a random location within 600-900 yards.
This game dosent need stronger downstate abilities. It only benefits bad players who need that second chance .
Warrior #3 – Self rebirth effect with a guaranteed chance at rallying if you kill a target, much stronger than the other classes due to having access to all your skills for a limited time.
Wat?! Are you mentally..or idk? War has guaranteed chance at rally olny if you pick up trait. On top of that his throw hammer is single target slow projectile easy to avoid, and even if you get hit by that you can attempt to stomp war again as revenge will still be on cd. If anything wars needs a buff to his downed state more than anyone else. Srsly ppl these days..
err… warriors should be on the bottom of the downstate list
warrior #2. wtf a single target 1 second cast knockback… It pretty much garbage. All the enemy has to do is stomp twice and the warrior can never activate its temp res
You place the ele way too low……. The reason why #3 is garbage is because #2 is so dawm amazing. It should be in the top 3 spots for stopping stomps and avoid danger
This game dosent need stronger downstate abilities. It only benefits bad players who need that second chance .
^^ I’d rather they balance down than up. Much hate for downed state abilities.
You have to look at them holistically.
Ranger probably has the best self-res, but that’s balanced by having among the worst stomp protection. PvP players usually know to stomp the ranger before the pet res can trigger if reasonably practical.
Guardian symbol is nice, but doesn’t do anything to prevent a stomp either, and the guardian lacks anything to get them out of a bad position.
Warrior, as stated above, is only a guaranteed rally if you have the trait, if you manage to kill something, and if you aren’t simply spiked down again after you get up. I’ve seen it fail more often than succeed.
Engineer #3 I find effective in both modes – against melee mobs it’ll buy you some breathing space (if not managing to finish something off to rally you), against ranged mobs you can combine it with a grapple, and in PvP it gives you two stomp protectors.
Elementalist has probably the best escape skill. Grasping Earth can help secure your escape, and is also potent in downed versus downed fights for the damage.
Mesmer #2 can be highly variable. It can fail to move you enough to avoid a stomp and not help at all. Or it can buy you a lot of time by making a stomp fail, and then the enemy attacks an illusion. iRogue is nice, but not something to write home about.
Necromancers have fairly weak #2 and #3, but they have an awesome #1, being the only one that can attack as well as heal when under fire. They’re a pain to finish off if stomping isn’t practical, and will usually win downed versus downed duels.
Thief has a good escape capability, including having one of the few stomp protectors that works basically regardless of what the enemy does to attempt to secure a stomp. Stealth can also serve to prevent a stomp and, combined with #2, means that if an enemy isn’t paying attention they may not know whether you’ve stealthed or moved.
Now, I’m not saying they’re all perfectly equal, but just because a profession has a weak downed skill 3 doesn’t mean it needs to be buffed – you need to consider the downed skills as a package.
You have to look at them holistically.
Ranger probably has the best self-res, but that’s balanced by having among the worst stomp protection. PvP players usually know to stomp the ranger before the pet res can trigger if reasonably practical.
How is Ranger 2 worse than Warrior, Necromancer and Engineer downed skills? Rangers can pop their interrupt and daze multiple enemies, it’s instant cast and doesn’t need a target. Warrior, Necromancer and Engineer affect a single target AND they need to hit their target to work (Warrior skill even has a casting time). So I wouldn’t say Rangers have the Worst stomp protection.
Also, Rangers still have access to their pets, their Pet F2 skills, and can even use F4 to change to a different pet, this allows them extra stomp protection with Fear and Immobilize from the Pet, or even the random knockdown Leap of some pets.
Rangers have amazing Stomp Protection, and a great Skill 3 (can self-rez very quickly). Rangers have some of the best downed skills in the game.
Guardian symbol is nice, but doesn’t do anything to prevent a stomp either, and the guardian lacks anything to get them out of a bad position.
Guardian downed skills are similar to Ranger, an aoe Stomp protection + self healing. Their self Healing is weak compared to Ranger and while their AoE is slightly stronger than the Ranger skill (it pushes back foes) they don’t have anything else, like FULL access to pet skills and extra Stomp Protection.
Warrior, as stated above, is only a guaranteed rally if you have the trait, if you manage to kill something, and if you aren’t simply spiked down again after you get up. I’ve seen it fail more often than succeed.
Warriors have a SINGLE target knockdown skill, with a 1 sec casting time, making it worse than the INSTANT AoE stomp protection of Ranger/Guardian. Rez is never used when under fire, even if you time the knockdown perfectly, there is still no time to use Vengeance. From a PVP perspective, Vengeance isn’t good at all, you can’t contest points AND opponents will rally when you die….
Engineer #3 I find effective in both modes – against melee mobs it’ll buy you some breathing space (if not managing to finish something off to rally you), against ranged mobs you can combine it with a grapple, and in PvP it gives you two stomp protectors.
Just like Warrior, Engineers have a single target stomp prevention skill. Fortunately it doesn’t have a 1 sec casting time…
Elementalist has probably the best escape skill. Grasping Earth can help secure your escape, and is also potent in downed versus downed fights for the damage.
Elementalists have the best escape skill and that’s because it was intended to be Skill3 powered and then changed around. Also, Skill1 has good dps and adds vulnerability to targets making the downed Ele useful for the party!
Mesmer #2 can be highly variable. It can fail to move you enough to avoid a stomp and not help at all. Or it can buy you a lot of time by making a stomp fail, and then the enemy attacks an illusion. iRogue is nice, but not something to write home about.
iRogue deals some nice damage from behind, more than the other downed skills for sure.
Necromancers have fairly weak #2 and #3, but they have an awesome #1, being the only one that can attack as well as heal when under fire. They’re a pain to finish off if stomping isn’t practical, and will usually win downed versus downed duels.
Skill1 is great for necros for keeping them alive. Rangers (easily) and Warriors (if they have stomp protection skills off CD) will win vs a Necromancer in a downed versus downed duel.
Thief has a good escape capability, including having one of the few stomp protectors that works basically regardless of what the enemy does to attempt to secure a stomp. Stealth can also serve to prevent a stomp and, combined with #2, means that if an enemy isn’t paying attention they may not know whether you’ve stealthed or moved.
Thief teleport doesn’t help against teleport Stomps. Thieves have one of the best skill1 in the game, high damage, hits 3 targets with bouncing projectile, applies loads of conditions if attacking from stealth (with skill3 for example)
Overall, I think Ranger is the master of Downed State
On rangers: I said AMONG the worst. That said, warriors and engineers both have stomp protection on skill 3 as well (warriors will die in 20 seconds, but hey, that’s sometimes better than being dead right NOW). Necromancer is arguable – like the ranger it can only be used if you have a target, and it’s single-target to boot, but forcing the enemy to run away from you can buy more time than a second of daze.
I don’t PvP with the ranger – last time I got downed as a ranger the pet skills weren’t available and the pet just acted according to its default AI until you skill 3’d. If that’s changed then that does alter the metric quite a bit. Mind you, the theme of playing ranger has always been one where the power is shared between the ranger and pet – knocking down the ranger while the pet is still active should mean that you then have to at least keep the pet from interfering until you can finish the ranger off.
On necromancer – I’ll admit I didn’t think of warrior vengeance-Stomps, which is a way to make it at least mutually assured destruction.
On the others, I think we pretty much agree, or close enough to it that it’s not worth commenting further.
Ranger pet 3 skill is indeed fun if you happen to be the ranger. It’s more than one time someone got me down before they got down, then I interrupted their stomp with my 2 downed skill, and by then they were down themselves, but I could get back up and they couldn’t.
Of course, if they have other teammates around, that backfires, but one on one, that’s a very powerful tool.
Rangers do, however, have a lot of other disadvantages. In the end, we don’t have the tankiness of guardians, engineers, certain types of eles, warriors if specced for it and we don’t have the zillion mesmer clones with confusion.
You can’t just compare downed skills to downed skills. Sure the rangers downed skill is as good as most anything out there. But in most other ways we’re at a serious disadvantage.
You can’t remove one aspect of the situation, try to balance it and call the game balanced. Sometimes the way things are balanced aren’t immediately apparent.
Its quite funny that anet decides to buff one of the strongest downstate ability in the game when they don’t need to, but then they left all the other terrible ones alone. The logic is too strong.
Should 100% rework downed state.
*Remove all downed skills.
When you hit 0 HP you die. If there is an ally within 1200 range you enter downed state giving that ally a chance to rally you by killing your foe or healing/rezing you.
Should 100% rework downed state.
*Remove all downed skills.
When you hit 0 HP you die. If there is an ally within 1200 range you enter downed state giving that ally a chance to rally you by killing your foe or healing/rezing you.
Would not work, the game is built around the downed state.
Should 100% rework downed state.
*Remove all downed skills.
When you hit 0 HP you die. If there is an ally within 1200 range you enter downed state giving that ally a chance to rally you by killing your foe or healing/rezing you.
Would not work, the game is built around the downed state.
Simple. It wouldn’t work. The game has downed state because there is no healer. If downed state was removed they would have to rework lots of traits and some skills like warbanner. Support specs would probably require a buff if that happens.
He didn’t suggest removing downed state. Read again. He suggested removing downed state skills, so you could still be revived from downed state, just could not do anything yourself.
He didn’t suggest removing downed state. Read again. He suggested removing downed state skills, so you could still be revived from downed state, just could not do anything yourself.
What’s the point in just removing the skills?
Rangers do, however, have a lot of other disadvantages. In the end, we don’t have the tankiness of guardians, engineers, certain types of eles, warriors if specced for it and we don’t have the zillion mesmer clones with confusion.
A well built/specced Ranger (Sword/Dagger + Shortbow) with Settler’s Gear is nearly immortal-tanky, try it in WvW. Also, Rangers have access to evades (Sword/Dagger), Invulnerability (Signet of Stone), Blocks (Greatsword) etc so saying that Rangers aren’t tanky is wrong.
Still, how the rest of the profession works has nothing to do with downed skills. Some downed skill sets are objectively better than others, while some are just terrible. Saying that a Warrior can spec for tankiness doesn’t mean their downed skill must be so much lower quality than the skills of other professions.
You can’t just compare downed skills to downed skills. Sure the rangers downed skill is as good as most anything out there. But in most other ways we’re at a serious disadvantage.
You can’t remove one aspect of the situation, try to balance it and call the game balanced. Sometimes the way things are balanced aren’t immediately apparent.
Again, Rangers can spec for ultimate defense as much as anyone else, that’s no excuse to have so imbalanced downed skills.
Rangers do, however, have a lot of other disadvantages. In the end, we don’t have the tankiness of guardians, engineers, certain types of eles, warriors if specced for it and we don’t have the zillion mesmer clones with confusion.
A well built/specced Ranger (Sword/Dagger + Shortbow) with Settler’s Gear is nearly immortal-tanky, try it in WvW. Also, Rangers have access to evades (Sword/Dagger), Invulnerability (Signet of Stone), Blocks (Greatsword) etc so saying that Rangers aren’t tanky is wrong.
Still, how the rest of the profession works has nothing to do with downed skills. Some downed skill sets are objectively better than others, while some are just terrible. Saying that a Warrior can spec for tankiness doesn’t mean their downed skill must be so much lower quality than the skills of other professions.
You can’t just compare downed skills to downed skills. Sure the rangers downed skill is as good as most anything out there. But in most other ways we’re at a serious disadvantage.
You can’t remove one aspect of the situation, try to balance it and call the game balanced. Sometimes the way things are balanced aren’t immediately apparent.
Again, Rangers can spec for ultimate defense as much as anyone else, that’s no excuse to have so imbalanced downed skills.
I have to disagree here. Many people feel warriors are in a pretty good place, over all. For ages, warriors were the go to profession for a lot of people. In all formats of the game, warriors exceled.
In addition to everything else, giving them the best downed state would have created greater inbalance.
You can’t just look at one aspect and make it equal without making all aspects equal. If you do that, you have only one profession.
Should 100% rework downed state.
*Remove all downed skills.
When you hit 0 HP you die. If there is an ally within 1200 range you enter downed state giving that ally a chance to rally you by killing your foe or healing/rezing you.
Would not work, the game is built around the downed state.
Not really, only a few skills work on downed allies and have long cooldowns tied to them. The downed state imo isn’t properly represented across the 8 professions with some having obvious advantages over others. They should look into how each professions #2 and #3 actually work and make them consistent rather than, “class A gets an AoE kb and class B gets a single target kb; same cooldown”. Not suggesting copy paste everyone to have the same skills, but the results shouldn’t be so different.
Warrior
Guardian
Ranger
Engineer
Thief
Elementalist
Mesmer
Necromancer
Ranger pet 3 skill is indeed fun if you happen to be the ranger. It’s more than one time someone got me down before they got down, then I interrupted their stomp with my 2 downed skill, and by then they were down themselves, but I could get back up and they couldn’t.
Of course, if they have other teammates around, that backfires, but one on one, that’s a very powerful tool.
Rangers do, however, have a lot of other disadvantages. In the end, we don’t have the tankiness of guardians, engineers, certain types of eles, warriors if specced for it and we don’t have the zillion mesmer clones with confusion.
You can’t just compare downed skills to downed skills. Sure the rangers downed skill is as good as most anything out there. But in most other ways we’re at a serious disadvantage.
You can’t remove one aspect of the situation, try to balance it and call the game balanced. Sometimes the way things are balanced aren’t immediately apparent.
Rangers are actually pretty good in terms of surviving. They are reasonably tanky in their survival condie builds. They have a lot of evades and kiting potential on their weapon skills. They also have decent health and endurance regen. The only real disadvantage I think with ranger is the lack of stun breakers. Overall, I find surviving as a ranger is probably one of easiest among all professions.
Ranger pet 3 skill is indeed fun if you happen to be the ranger. It’s more than one time someone got me down before they got down, then I interrupted their stomp with my 2 downed skill, and by then they were down themselves, but I could get back up and they couldn’t.
Of course, if they have other teammates around, that backfires, but one on one, that’s a very powerful tool.
Rangers do, however, have a lot of other disadvantages. In the end, we don’t have the tankiness of guardians, engineers, certain types of eles, warriors if specced for it and we don’t have the zillion mesmer clones with confusion.
You can’t just compare downed skills to downed skills. Sure the rangers downed skill is as good as most anything out there. But in most other ways we’re at a serious disadvantage.
You can’t remove one aspect of the situation, try to balance it and call the game balanced. Sometimes the way things are balanced aren’t immediately apparent.
Rangers are actually pretty good in terms of surviving. They are reasonably tanky in their survival condie builds. They have a lot of evades and kiting potential on their weapon skills. They also have decent health and endurance regen. The only real disadvantage I think with ranger is the lack of stun breakers. Overall, I find surviving as a ranger is probably one of easiest among all professions.
I don’t know I’ve pounded on some engineers and guardians and even a few warriors and didn’t really dent them.
I’d have a lot more trouble doing that on a ranger.
Not really, only a few skills work on downed allies and have long cooldowns tied to them. The downed state imo isn’t properly represented across the 8 professions with some having obvious advantages over others.
That’s why i made this thread.
He didn’t suggest removing downed state. Read again. He suggested removing downed state skills, so you could still be revived from downed state, just could not do anything yourself.
What’s the point in just removing the skills?
Have you tried reviving a downed player vs. a defeated player? If not, go and do it and see the difference.
Also, you cannot even revive a defeated player in sPvP, and defeating one gives points to the team.
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.