Guild Wars 2

Would you rather pay for a new grind or new content?

This question occurred to me as I was out collecting Empyreal Shards from chests just now. I am crafting a few more Ascended Weapons and possibly another set of gear. As I as doing this I thought very seriously about what I’ve enjoyed about this game.

The first thing that came to mind was “diversity of activity”. I love that I’m out here right now gathering Empyreal Shards from chests while also exploring some unique spots those chests are in. These locations have nothing at all to do with 100%ing, only occasionally a Jumping Puzzle, or generally anything else that overlaps with other content.
This added to the perspective that I’ve come to have this game has a truly fantastic amount of content that you can really keep discovering for years.

But then I thought about what I actually enjoy more. I found this to be an incredibly difficult thing to answer as I’ve really done quite a lot of what is available in the game. 100%ing is quite refreshing, especially if you’d done it and then put it away for awhile. You can come back later to find that actually you’re quite fond of this and even getting a lot of nostalgia out of it. Best of all, it’s rare to do something (anything) in this game and say “I’m wasting my time with this”.

The thought occurred again of ‘What content would I pay for?’, as: “What would I rather pay for?”.

Immediately I came to the two most outlying things MMOs have traditionally offered:
- Maps
- Dungeons/Raids

Just about everyone hates Raids at one time or another because it is surely the most exploitative content in MMOs. Developers exploit their customers by creating perpetual gear grinds. Customers exploit their own community by forcing everyone to either be part of that gear grind or quit the game. This is nothing to say of whether or not the Raids themselves are fun; it’s simply that given liberties at all the least and worst of people always triumphs here. Raids, Dungeons, and generally the whole “rat in a box” nature of it is degrading and toxic.

Simultaneously, everyone cheers with the addition of new maps. Maps are a major piece of video game content because by and large it is maps that we come to these space for first and lastly. Maps set the mood, present the product’s diversity, and generally do nod _enforce toxicity which raids and dungeons have always done.

Guild Wars 2 has always very wisely seemed to recognized this by keeping skins, the most valued content from dungeons out of dungeons and raids.
This simple change in acquisition of content meant that Raids, Dungeons, Fractals, and all else related is not exclusionary content accessible only to an elite few for which the Developers ever produce more for while the rest of the ‘game’ turns into a desert of neglected potential. WvW can easily be argued to be this in Guild Wars 2, but all else is still quite healthy.

But we’ve reached a turning point with Heart of Thorns. It may well be this is the last year where Guild Wars 2 will keep players equals. Forever after this we may see this MMO become the gear-grind, elitists only, carrot on a stick content producer that is the rest of the MMO industry.

So, this is a post to discuss _what content do you want to pay for?

I’d personally happily pay for more Maps and Open-World content with much more trust and respect with both the community and Anet. I’ve seen too raids, dungeons, fractals, and that entire sort of content stop development in all other content of any MMO to think they are ever to be more than a marginal piece of content.

Is this the direction we want to see Guild Wars 2 go? Do we want to see the game become another dead-end game where the only thing we do is long in for the chance at some armor or weapon skin? Because that’s all that can be owned from raids. Exotic Gear was promised to be the end all be all when the game got going. Then came Ascended Gear and that was promised to be the end all be all. Now Legendary gear comes and that’s promised to be the end all be all. The only thing you own from your gear if the skins. You don’t own the stats, you don’t own the time you put into it, and you don’t own the future security that those stats are the last time you’re going to be desperate for another stat equality with this or that game’s community.

It’s time to imagine a bit. Take this post seriously and answer seriously.

What content do you really want to pay for?

What content hasn’t been done in MMOs that does respect your time and money you do want?

Imagine, be creative. And kitten on the trolls.

Legendaries are literally the end all and be all. That’s the entire point. When new stats are added by any means, they’re added to legendaries. When ascended was added, legendaries were buffed to that point.

Furthermore, ascended is literally the top statistical tier forever

The only reason it was added post release is that anet mistakenly thought exotic acquisition was going to be more difficult and time consuming for its players. Players acquired ther ’endgame" gear so rapidly that they hit the “legendary wall” and became frustrated by the sharp cliff of cost and RNG associated with legendaries.

Ascended was designed to bridge that gap, and to dovetail with fractals, which were given an encapsulated fractal-only gear progression system to appeal to people that like gear progression without keeping those that do not from experiencing all of the fractal content.

It’s a pretty neat system that works a lot like an action RPG. You can “just play” through fractals, get some rewards, and say “that was fun, let’s do other stuff” or you can hop on the ever-increasing difficulty and gear treadmill to get the epic-shiny-whatsit-of-legend.

The difference is that unlike most MMOs, you don’t actually need any of the epic-shiny-whatsits-of-legend to get in to other content. They’re there as goals, but they aren’t required as gates to simply experience other content. You don’t need the gear from raid 1 to play raid 2. You don’t need to get to fractal level 100 to try a raid.

That progression is in masteries and hero points, which are, like xp, largely passive and “free” systems that reward content completion rather than repetition. Masteries reward you for completing whatever content in their area you want. Hero points are rewarded for completing specific challenges one time. Your gear rewards are left up to you.

Don’t like that elite spec ascended skin? Fine! You don’t actually need it to do anything! Don’t want that legendary armor? Fine! you don’t actually need it to do anything! Your top tier, ascended is easily accessible by any player through the simple act of crafting, which requires no special skills but the ability to spend your gold on it and click buttons at a crafting station. From there you are allowed and encouraged to define whatever goals are interesting to you personally, in stead of going down a strictly ordered checklist predefined by the developers of ten instances you hate just to have a chance at survivng in an open world map you actually like.

I really don’t see them invalidating these systems they designed specifically to use for further progression design for the lifetime of GW2. They said many times that all the new HoT systems were done specifically for extendability.

The entire design of masteries and elite specs was done specifically to avoid adding more tiers of gear. Arenanet has made it very clear that at some time in the past they considered vertical stat progression, but decided due to community feedback that it was something they wouldn’t do again, and devoted a considerable amount of time and resources to developing elite specs and masteries as progression systems in place of the much cheaper and easier to implement option of more character levels and stat tiers.

As for content, the vast majority of content in HoT was of the accessible and map related bent. No new instances were added with the exception of one raid, and they purposely retooled all 5-man instances in the game in to the fractal system specifically so that they have a framework within which they can spend less time and effort on those instances for more content longevity due to the size and general scaling nature of fractals.

The game needed challenging endgame instances just as much as it will continue to need regular drops of maps and living story updates, and they already developed a methodology and development schedule to roll those out with LS2 that was extremely well recieved and quite popular so there is no reason to assume they won’t follow suit with LS3.

The game has always had content exclusive rewards, and HoT is no different. There are many rewards you can only get from playing a lot of specific map content, many rewards you can only get through their respective instances, and even a few you can only get through wvw or spvp.

GW2 has never kept the most valued skins out of specific content. Legendaries require very specific content to craft, including a combination of instances and PvP. I don’t know where you got the idea that GW2 ever practiced some idea of preferential treatment toward open map rewards. They’ve always tried to ensure there are compelling content specific rewards for various content, and have done so with varying degrees of success.

I really want to pay for exactly what we’re getting, with a more frequent rollout of new guild missions and fractals. I’d happily take an open map chunk every other living stroy update if the ones that didn’t introduce new map content in stead introduce a fractal or raid wing, and they keep the wvw and spvp patches on their own schedules that actually turn up content more often. I’ll gladly keep buying expansions if we get in total what we’re promised to eventually see out of this one with a little extra love for fractals. Some extremely stong open world maps. A decent story release with a good follow-up living story season, a new elite spec or two, and some new pvp/wvw maps or modes.

I will happily continue to play with skins as the primary reward mechanism, with the secondary reward/progression mechanism being a primarily content driven rather than economic driven progression of masteries and hero points. I did it for seven years in GW1 and it was effective, and it worked. Top tier gear was easy. From there you collected skills (elite specs in GW2) and worked on title tracks (masteries in GW2)

There is literally no reason to assume GW2 is moving toward a gear grind when arenanet worked so much harder to create progression systems that remove the need to implement a much easier and cheaper to develop gear grind.

There’s not a whole lot of difference between exotic and ascended gear, and there’s no stat difference between ascended and legendary gear. You don’t have to get them if you don’t feel like it.

There’s a ton of people out there who like the concept of challenging raids, and raids is what they paid for when they bought HoT. Overcoming these challenges is an awesome form of content. If you don’t like it, nothing is stopping you from ignoring it, and the best thing is, you’re not missing anything in terms of progression! If you’re not willing to put in the effort to get legendary armor and the QoL stat change it allows, you can farm yourself a set of ascended armor instead through other content.

Also, anet has already said that ascended tier stats is the last tier that will ever be added. It was not part of the original game because they didn’t polish it enough in time for release, but it was always intended to be part of the game at some point.

On the whole I prefer content, obviously.

Open maps and instanced content that anyone can join (ideally, via an automated system) and play the way they like.

I hate grind, or what I view as grind and am concerned that this xpac is in danger of being too “real” raidcentric.

Re. your fleeting comment about the neglect of WvW:

I wish there was more you could get from doing EotM/WvW.

I understand that not everyone enjoys PVP, or anything PVP enabled, but I don’t think it would be unreasonable to have some meaningful rewards put in there.

Whether they be exclusive to it (e.g. skins), or it was just made another way to get the same rewards you can get in other places.

The new borderlands are beautiful, but virtually empty, every time I go there.

It might be an idea to make certain rewards require that people play in them, rather than in EBG, or EotM (which could also have their own rewards).

I don’t think people should have to be bribed to play content, but if people are given things for doing other content, but not given anything for doing WvW, of course they will tend to feel undervalued and less incentivised to do it.

I would rather pay for a goal to reach and a sense of satisfation when i reach it, instead of grind² then buy “my goal” at the TP with gold.

I want to be proud of my skins (coz they are the main goal in GW2) because i played to earn them, not grind to buy them like a kitten

imple as that.

Opc.4718:

There’s not a whole lot of difference between exotic and ascended gear, and there’s no stat difference between ascended and legendary gear. You don’t have to get them if you don’t feel like it.

There’s a ton of people out there who like the concept of challenging raids, and raids is what they paid for when they bought HoT. Overcoming these challenges is an awesome form of content. If you don’t like it, nothing is stopping you from ignoring it, and the best thing is, you’re not missing anything in terms of progression! If you’re not willing to put in the effort to get legendary armor and the QoL stat change it allows, you can farm yourself a set of ascended armor instead through other content.

Also, anet has already said that ascended tier stats is the last tier that will ever be added. It was not part of the original game because they didn’t polish it enough in time for release, but it was always intended to be part of the game at some point.

You base your argument on the idea that ascended will stay the best armor. But you can´t be sure of that, Anet basically threw their whole concept out of the window with the end of free ls, so I give their statements from years ago not much credit. Money talks. If the accounting department reports that income is low and the marketing department suggests that gear grinders were not sufficiently catered too, you can bet your lucky dollar that ascended will be relegated to second grade armor quickly.

And isn´t it a grind in itself if I am reeled in to do raids, which I loathe for various reasons, because I want the shinies in it and can´t get them anywhere else? I already know that a raid means for me that I have to change my habits and do things I don´t want to do, so what are my options?
A) Do it and change habits and gear. Not enjoy doing it, loosing interest in the whole of the game in the long term. Mabe stay because of nice people in the guild.
B) Do it, stay as I am. Need to relly on a social place in a raid from my guildies, feel like a leecher. Stop doing it quickly, nobody wins.
C) Not do it. Feel like a second grade player despite buying the expansion. Hardly motivating.

I have no problems with people wanting and getting raids, although i don´t think that it is the majority of people. But please don´t put something substantial like legendary armor in them. Give them lots of gold, titles and skins. Or at least make the ingredients tradeable so that people like me can buy them from the TP instead of devoting 3+ hours into stuff we don´t want to do, aka grind.

Torolan.5816:

I have no problems with people wanting and getting raids, although i don´t think that it is the majority of people. But please don´t put something substantial like legendary armor in them. Give them lots of gold, titles and skins. Or at least make the ingredients tradeable so that people like me can buy them from the TP instead of devoting 3+ hours into stuff we don´t want to do, aka grind.

1) And what is legendary armor if not a skin?
2) Why not give them this skins if they are able to “grind” something as hard as raid?
3) Thats what i dislike in player that far in this game: "buy everything with gold, do not achiev anything that is anything harder than “preschool level” yourself."

PopeUrban.2578:

Furthermore, ascended is literally the top statistical tier forever

Or until they change their minds. It’s not like they didn’t leave the door open. “I hope we don’t.” is not, “We never will.”

PopeUrban.2578:

The only reason it was added post release is that anet mistakenly thought exotic acquisition was going to be more difficult and time consuming for its players. Players acquired ther ’endgame" gear so rapidly that they hit the “legendary wall” and became frustrated by the sharp cliff of cost and RNG associated with legendaries.

The reason Asc. was added is because ANet miscalculated all right, but, “We thought Exotic would take longer” flies in the face of the only pre-launch statement to address Exotic acquisition, which was, “Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game.” If they changed their minds pre-launch, they sure didn’t bother to tell fans.

Players did acquire dungeon sets too soon, partly because Anet caved to the complaints about having to do too many dungeon runs to get it. What ANet miscalculated was the voracious devouring of content and rewards by the MMO locusts. They still haven’t geared up production enough to keep up with demand, and that’s despite adding Asc. and with a smaller player-base (than at and right after launch).

You can believe the Anet PR speak about it if you like.

@ Thread

I’d rather pay for content, as long as it’s content I’d like to play through. HoT, which looks like Silverwastes 2.0 – 5.0 but with timers, not so much. Oh, and I’d prefer less platforming. The JP’s and the like in the core were fine, but the descriptions of the new maps, not my style. I would have loved to pay for either Cantha or Elona, a new continent with a lot of diverse things to do.

Leming.8436:

Torolan.5816:

I have no problems with people wanting and getting raids, although i don´t think that it is the majority of people. But please don´t put something substantial like legendary armor in them. Give them lots of gold, titles and skins. Or at least make the ingredients tradeable so that people like me can buy them from the TP instead of devoting 3+ hours into stuff we don´t want to do, aka grind.

1) And what is legendary armor if not a skin?
2) Why not give them this skins if they are able to “grind” something as hard as raid?
3) Thats what i dislike in player that far in this game: "buy everything with gold, do not achiev anything that is anything harder than “preschool level” yourself."

1) It is not only a skin. It kind of stays a skin and a convenience item if ascended stays top equipment, but take a look at my reasoning above why I don´t think that it will stay top equipment.
And then it is not really correct that it is just a skin. i compare it more like a Tank to a Transformer.
You tank is strong and durable, but it was to be refittet(in the mythic forge) if you want to change it from a desert to a winter combat. A transformer does just that, it transforms for the task at hand. If that is not a massive advantage, moneywise and convenience wise, then I don´t know what is an advantage.
2) They can earn the skin this way. I am just asking for an alternative method of obtainment. My comment with the TP was kind of born out of desperation as Anet is obviously unwilling to give us the chance to earn the armor in fractals, wvw or pvp yet.
3) You misunderstood me here. I had fractal lvl 50 before it was cool and 4 full ascended characters with the 5th on the way, so I don´t want something just handed over. The topic of ths thread is if I rather want to pay for content and not for grind. My answer is that I want content, but a raid is my definition of a grind(something you have to do over and over again to get something and probably don´t want to do on top of that) so it does not count as content for me personally.

I hate grinds.

Actually, that’s not totally true. I loved vanilla SWG which was insanely grindy.

What I don’t like more than anything is inconsistent pacing, which is absolutely rampant in modern MMOs. In vanilla SWG, before any kind of mounts, you could literally spend like 20 minutes going from one place to the next. You could burn (trying to remember the numbers) I want to say 15 minutes waiting on a shuttle to go to another planet. May have been longer. That game was very grindy, but the thing was, every part of it moved at a glacial pace. It had a true feeling of being a virtual world.

The grind was bad, but you didn’t have to ever think about the grind unless you really really wanted to because the pacing was such that the rate of acquiring skills, for example, felt like a fitting speed for the glacial pace of the rest of the game.

Most modern MMOs that I have tried work in much the following way (and even later forms of SWG went in this direction): The pacing is lightning speed. Travel is streamlined, progression is largely done in the UI and can be picked or changed in an instant. Basically 90% of the game is designed such that you move very fast through it.

This has some awful consequences, despite it apparently having mainstream appeal. Most modern games also have the 10% of the game (what we usually refer to as “content”) that is designed to slow everything down to a crawl. The pacing is molasses when compared to the rest of the game.

So what happens is this awful contrast where people are literally being conditioned to GOGOGO, while the part of the game that is supposed to keep them playing is SLOWSLOWSLOW. It’s jerky, I’ve never liked it, and what I increasingly find is that it’s actually hard for me to slow down in such games. No matter how hard I try slow myself down, the pacing of the game keeps trying to turn up the dial.

The result? Lots of people getting burned out and/or citing grinds as an awful thing.

So I guess what I want is a bit complicated and it’s also totally unrealistic for the game we’re talking about, but I’ll say it all the same because it’s something I feel strongly about concernings MMOs in general: I want a game that is consistent in its pacing. If you’re going to make me put in months for a single item, don’t do it artificially, with things that take you out of the moment, like “you can only craft one of these a day for no logical reason” or “you need to go do the same content 500 times to get enough currency to make/buy this.”

Instead, slow me down by making the game world function more like the real world. Make travel take longer. Make an event more like a campaign that you can duck in and out of, instead of a brief and efficient attack that takes anywhere from 10 minutes to 2 hours, and that you go and do again 20 minutes later. If any actual game dev ever reads this, just review the features of the original SWG and you’ll get the gist of what I mean.

Granted, the pacing does not need to be as slow as vanilla SWG. It just needs to be consistent. Indulging peoples’ impatience completely in one area while giving it the middle finger in another area is, imo, simply not good game design and chips away at player interest until otherwise interested people don’t want to play anymore.

In fact, it would seem that the majority of lasting players in games like these (I’m talking like vets of the order who are around from launch to the end) only survive by going to one extreme or the other: They either embrace the grind 100% and eat it up like it’s their job, or they somehow shut it out 100% and slow themselves down through means that are beyond the game itself.

It’s pretty weird to see.