Guild Wars 2

So I was watching Towelliee(a popular WOW streamer), and he said this:
“GW2 has the best PVP and combat out of all MMOs, If GW2 had Holy Trinity, with that pvp and dungeons ,it would be the No.1 MMO in the world” this is his quote, When I first heard of it, I thought it’s totally nuts and holy trinity is bad so gw2 don’t need it, but later when I think about. I actually think he is legit. GW2 might not be unique and a better game with holy trinity, but I really do think it would be more successful. Because as I know 90% of the people were turned down by no holy trinity, which is the only reason people play other mmo(WOW, SWTOR,etc.) instead of GW2, imagine if gw2 went with holy trinity, people often say XXX mmo is WOW killer, I think GW2 would actually kill WOW.
PS: all my opinion.

What attracts most of us to gw2 is that it is unique and doesn’t follow the same pattern that most mmos follow. Personally, I would rather let WoW continue to live than be forced back into a system in which I’m pigeonholed into a specific role regardless of the content I’m trying to enjoy.
“GW2 might not be unique and a better game with holy trinity. ..”
Then why change ?

abbetd.5912:

What attracts most of us to gw2 is that it is unique and doesn’t follow the same pattern that most mmos follow. Personally, I would rather let WoW continue to live than be forced back into a system in which I’m pigeonholed into a specific role regardless of the content I’m trying to enjoy.
“GW2 might not be unique and a better game with holy trinity. ..”
Then why change ?

That’s what i’m saying tho, it might not be a better game, but it would be more successful and popular. It might not appeal to us, but it will appeal to more people other than us.

Personally, if GW2 had a trinity system I never would have bought it. I really like the freedom the GW2 system provides.

No, it wouldn’t… If (Really big if) they had figured out how to make challenging content that is equally rewarding and fun.
Challenging: TA Aetherpath (fun but not rewarding)
Fractals (Fun, but the rewards are mostly RNG (Ascended chests and fractal skins)
Fun: Most dungeons (I’m sure we all have different opinions so pick one you like) (Some of them are more challenging than others, but most can be soloed too…)
Rewarding: Any dungeon path you can clear in 20 minutes or less. (But inherently 20> minutes usually isn’t challenging, especially if it’s solo)

Unfortunately that is what scared people off, problem is that holy trinity content is easier to make challenging than something with a system like gw2.

Sorry, but Towelliee is wrong. Trinity would have made GW2 a cookie cutter MMO

You may be right that it would attract other players, but it would also drive away a lot of dedicated GW2 players. What’s the point, from a player perspective, of killing of the existing community to increase the number of new players?

I admit, there have been times I’ve gotten frustrated and wished for the simpler mechanics of tank/heals/dps, but in the long run, the universal utility of all professions makes for a much more dynamic game, more interesting gameplay , and more cooperative community. I’ll take that over higher subscription numbers any day.

(Note: I exclusively played DPS in WoW from WotLK through early WoD: those dungeon/raid queues can kiss my kitten lol)

Azrael.4960:

Sorry, but Towelliee is wrong. Trinity would have made GW2 a cookie cutter MMO

It would be a cookie cutter MMO, but it would appeal to more players. You are right about it would be cookie cutter, but it would be more popular and possibly kill WOW. That’s also Towelliee’s point, it might not be a better game, but it would be more popular.

Its a pretty stupid comment IMO because the game would be unrecognisable if it had a trinity.

All of the class skills, traits, and play styles would be different. And the combat that he says is the best wouldn’t exist either.

His statement contradicts itself.

Yes, the holy trinity and content developed around that concept would add more diversity and more complexity to GW2’s PvE than it currently has. The PvE content of GW2 is too monotone and straight-forward now. Instead of having DPSers, tanks and healers, GW2 just has DPSers who can heal themselves.

What I would propose might not be possible for GW2, but it could be taken in consideration for GW3.

My proposition:

Reintroduce the holy trinity, but make it so that every class/profession can fill in every trinity role in their own way if they are specced for it. So for example a thief can be a healer by getting healer gear and choosing healer traits, but then you can also have another thief who is a tank with tanky gear and tank traits. They’re both thieves and both have their thief abilities, but both play in a vastly different way and fill in a different role of the trinity.

Then design content around the trinity where a dedicated tank, dedicated healer and dedicated DPSer are required.

I believe that this way you’ll get a very interesting game where everyone can fill in every role by merely swapping gear and traits. That way you avoid having a shortage of healers because everyone can be a healer with the right gear and traits.

Sube Dai.8496:

Its a pretty stupid comment IMO because the game would be unrecognisable if it had a trinity.

All of the class skills, traits, and play styles would be different. And the combat that he says is the best wouldn’t exist either.

His statement contradicts itself.

That is not true, the only thing that remove holy trinity is downed state and no taunt. If gw2 had no downed state, there would be healer, if gw2 had taunt there would be tank. GW2 is not that far away from holy trinity.

You can’t just completely change the class system and gameplay philosophies of a game post-launch. That would essentially be suicide.

To answer you question – no, Guild Wars 2 would not be more successful by abandoning its current direction and adopting the typical one. It would simply blend with other titles and be a lackluster game with content that does not support its class system.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

You can’t just completely change the class system and gameplay philosophies of a game post-launch. That would essentially be suicide.

To answer you question – no, Guild Wars 2 would not be more successful by abandoning its current direction and adopting the typical one. It would simply blend with other titles and be a lackluster game with content that does not support its class system.

Well like I said gw2 is not that far away from holy trinity as you thought.

If GW2 offered the trinity in group specific content and in a way that anyone could do it, it probably would have been more accepted. Is it needed? Not at all, but it would have made the game more accessible, especially if it was done like GW1.

In the years before release, that’s what I thought they were going do. Everyone was a DPS and self healer by default and anyone could become the tank. For example, a warrior switching to a shield or an elementalist entering earth attunement would become a tank. Without a dedicated healer of course, the tank would have to kite or swap with someone else after a time. Funnily enough, with the addition of taunt, it could happen.

Some people simply can’t handle playing every role in one. For example, I knew a “server first” WoW raider that rage quit and never played again after their first dungeon because they, as a “DPS”, continuously pulled aggro and died. The trinity would have been better for them, however, it would have also allowed them to continue playing poorly (as in the kind of people who ignore everything in order to get the top DPS on the meters).

ketchup.2783:

erm, guys. you know you can play it like a holy trinity if you want to. it’s not that difficult to do…but ok.

No you can’t. There is absolutely no way to reliably tank a boss in this game. There are no taunts or other ways to keep the aggro of the boss.

warbignime.4610:

Azrael.4960:

Sorry, but Towelliee is wrong. Trinity would have made GW2 a cookie cutter MMO

It would be a cookie cutter MMO, but it would appeal to more players. You are right about it would be cookie cutter, but it would be more popular and possibly kill WOW. That’s also Towelliee’s point, it might not be a better game, but it would be more popular.

Yea, Wildstar is a popular WoW killer. Oh wait.

Healix.5819:

If GW2 offered the trinity in group specific content and in a way that anyone could do it, it probably would have been more accepted. Is it needed? Not at all, but it would have made the game more accessible, especially if it was done like GW1.

In the years before release, that’s what I thought they were going do. Everyone was a DPS and self healer by default and anyone could become the tank. For example, a warrior switching to a shield or an elementalist entering earth attunement would become a tank. Without a dedicated healer of course, the tank would have to kite or swap with someone else after a time. Funnily enough, with the addition of taunt, it could happen.

Some people simply can’t handle playing every role in one. For example, I knew a “server first” WoW raider that rage quit and never played again after their first dungeon because they, as a “DPS”, continuously pulled aggro and died. The trinity would have been better for them, however, it would have also allowed them to continue playing poorly (as in the kind of people who ignore everything in order to get the top DPS on the meters).

Well the problem of GW2 is everyone is DPS. I think holy trinity is at least better than all dps.

runeblade.7514:

warbignime.4610:

Azrael.4960:

Sorry, but Towelliee is wrong. Trinity would have made GW2 a cookie cutter MMO

It would be a cookie cutter MMO, but it would appeal to more players. You are right about it would be cookie cutter, but it would be more popular and possibly kill WOW. That’s also Towelliee’s point, it might not be a better game, but it would be more popular.

Yea, Wildstar is a popular WoW killer. Oh wait.

Wildstar did not fail because of Holy Trinity, they done a lot of things wrong and caused the game to fail, but it’s not because of holy trinity. Just to clarify.

Yes it would be more popular with trinity.Wow killer?No.It had the chance and lost it.Like everyone else(wildstar,eso,archage etc).Only FF XIV raises its players as i see.And now with the new expansion that adds flying mounts i think it will attract even more people.

warbignime.4610:

runeblade.7514:

warbignime.4610:

Azrael.4960:

Sorry, but Towelliee is wrong. Trinity would have made GW2 a cookie cutter MMO

It would be a cookie cutter MMO, but it would appeal to more players. You are right about it would be cookie cutter, but it would be more popular and possibly kill WOW. That’s also Towelliee’s point, it might not be a better game, but it would be more popular.

Yea, Wildstar is a popular WoW killer. Oh wait.

Wildstar did not fail because of Holy Trinity, they done a lot of things wrong and caused the game to fail, but it’s not because of holy trinity. Just to clarify.

WildStar is a very descent mmo and after Drop 4 population has dramatically increased and new players join every day. Patches are (at last) towards the right direction and Carbine seems to hear their playerbase. Btw since yesterday there is a 10 day trial for new and old players.
As for GW2 i think it has the greatest combat of any mmo in the market, but i would also agree that needs some sort of Trinity. Not to make classes better, but to create some more sophisticated PvE content. Despite i like GW2 a lot, i think PvE content is not in the same lvl of PvP (which i found to be superb) and this due to the lack of sophisticated boss fights.
My last hope is their statement about how they acknowledge this problem and promised to deliver Challenging Group Content in HoT. We will see what they mean by this.

warbignime.4610:

runeblade.7514:

warbignime.4610:

Azrael.4960:

Sorry, but Towelliee is wrong. Trinity would have made GW2 a cookie cutter MMO

It would be a cookie cutter MMO, but it would appeal to more players. You are right about it would be cookie cutter, but it would be more popular and possibly kill WOW. That’s also Towelliee’s point, it might not be a better game, but it would be more popular.

Yea, Wildstar is a popular WoW killer. Oh wait.

Wildstar did not fail because of Holy Trinity, they done a lot of things wrong and caused the game to fail, but it’s not because of holy trinity. Just to clarify.

Then all it is that the Holy Trinity or lack thereof is not the deciding factor of a game success.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Reintroduce the holy trinity, but make it so that every class/profession can fill in every trinity role in their own way if they are specced for it.

There’s a recent game out there that works just like this, to the point where every class can even use every weapon and every armor skill. Theoretically, you should be able to fill every role with every class. Practically, classes are pretty much pigeon-holed into one of the roles, since the ways each class can tank/heal are vastly different and the large majority of players can’t deal with it.

It’s not much differend than the “zerker problem” some people see in GW2: if you want different classes to fulfill the same roles, you need people to adjust to the different playstyles of the classes. Most people can’t handle that, thus there’s a specific class combination considered “meta” and only the best actually understand enough of the system to be able to play with other group set-ups, because they understand that there’s more to it than just doing damage the same old way every fight.

I’m with the people saying that GW2 with trinity would be no more than just another generic MMO out there. Trinity takes the responsibility of adjusting to everybody’s build/playstyle away for a large part by letting people concentrate on a single aspect of the fight (damage, tanking, healing) and keeps most people from taking in the whole picture, thus making just a few class/role combinations really viable, no matter how many the game theoretically offered.

I used to play a trinity MMO with two tank and two healing classes, one each mainly reactive, the other mostly proactive. You could easily do all content with either class, but you’d be surprised at how little people were actually able to do it. Even many of the good (not best) raids were unable to substitute one class for the other, because they couldn’t adjust their strategies to the different playstyles the classes required. There are a ton of people out there thinking they are good at this type of game but effectively just following strategies they’ve seen on youtube without really understanding them, and those will fail when faced with different abilities that don’t work with their prefered strategies.

Currently, it’s fairly easy to include everyone because pretty much every class has ways to help out the rest, or at least be self-sufficient. A dungeon or fractal with five self-sufficient players playing alongside each other may not be the most fun, but it’s something most people can do. Specialized roles are possible, but the degree of specialization varies from group to group. Forced specialization (as in trinity roles) massivly restricts the flexibility of the combat system we have now. I seriously doubt this would lead to a rise in popularity of the game, since there are a lot more games out the it would have to rival with.

Rasimir.6239:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Reintroduce the holy trinity, but make it so that every class/profession can fill in every trinity role in their own way if they are specced for it.

There’s a recent game out there that works just like this, to the point where every class can even use every weapon and every armor skill. Theoretically, you should be able to fill every role with every class. Practically, classes are pretty much pigeon-holed into one of the roles, since the ways each class can tank/heal are vastly different and the large majority of players can’t deal with it.

It’s not much differend than the “zerker problem” some people see in GW2: if you want different classes to fulfill the same roles, you need people to adjust to the different playstyles of the classes. Most people can’t handle that, thus there’s a specific class combination considered “meta” and only the best actually understand enough of the system to be able to play with other group set-ups, because they understand that there’s more to it than just doing damage the same old way every fight.

I’m with the people saying that GW2 with trinity would be no more than just another generic MMO out there. Trinity takes the responsibility of adjusting to everybody’s build/playstyle away for a large part by letting people concentrate on a single aspect of the fight (damage, tanking, healing) and keeps most people from taking in the whole picture, thus making just a few class/role combinations really viable, no matter how many the game theoretically offered.

I used to play a trinity MMO with two tank and two healing classes, one each mainly reactive, the other mostly proactive. You could easily do all content with either class, but you’d be surprised at how little people were actually able to do it. Even many of the good (not best) raids were unable to substitute one class for the other, because they couldn’t adjust their strategies to the different playstyles the classes required. There are a ton of people out there thinking they are good at this type of game but effectively just following strategies they’ve seen on youtube without really understanding them, and those will fail when faced with different abilities that don’t work with their prefered strategies.

Currently, it’s fairly easy to include everyone because pretty much every class has ways to help out the rest, or at least be self-sufficient. A dungeon or fractal with five self-sufficient players playing alongside each other may not be the most fun, but it’s something most people can do. Specialized roles are possible, but the degree of specialization varies from group to group. Forced specialization (as in trinity roles) massivly restricts the flexibility of the combat system we have now. I seriously doubt this would lead to a rise in popularity of the game, since there are a lot more games out the it would have to rival with.

Well it all go backs to Zerker problem, as bad as holy trinity is, it is still way better than all zerker.

Trinity only gives an illusion of teamwork, and if GW2 had the trinity it would just be another wowclone.

All zerker isn’t very interesting either, but you could do much worse.

No, it would just make them more similar to the other games. Don’t let the “meta” bother you and just play whatever (which frankly, I bet most people are already doing anyway.) While I will appreciate the taunt skills, etc. ultimately it’s good, IMHO, not to “need” one or another profession just to move forward and complete whatever PvE content it may be (and I did play “healers” on other games, and loved it as well.)

I guess he could also say that Diablo 2 or Mass Effect would be No. 1 multiplayer RPGs with a Holy Trinity too.

i dont think the game needs a holy trinity to work…. i just think it need challenging raids and dungeons with some sort of reward. or at least with like the rework of tequatl make it so a guild could have its own instance and make some of the open world stuff challenging.

warbignime.4610:

Rasimir.6239:

…

Well it all go backs to Zerker problem, as bad as holy trinity is, it is still way better than all zerker.

That’s your opinion. In my opinion, the holy trinity is a lot worse than the so-called “zerker problem”, since out current system allows a lot more variety and playstyles than a trinity system ever would. If people want to restrict themselves to preconceived roles and fight choreographies (“challenging boss fights” in trinity games usually end up with every one-trick pony having to know exactly what part they are supposed to be playing, without much variation … aggro this boss, heal that tank, interrupt at that point …), they can very well do that in this game, too.

Adjusting on the fly to ever-changing combat roles, and making fights work with different classes and abilities (and something other than “freeze this, burn that”, which is very much possible in this game) is much more fun to me than any forced trinity roles could ever be again. I’ve played endgame raids in trinity games, in different roles, and I’d much prefer duoing Arah on different class combinations, or going through it with a full party of casual guildies that haven’t been near the dungeon before. So much is possible in this game that a trinity system just wouldn’t allow, no way a trinity could ever beat that.

All trinity would do for this game is try to compete with a ton of similar games out there for the same pool of players, and leave players like me who enjoy the freedom and flexibility of the non-trinity system stranded without a decent game again.

+1 ^

Well it all go backs to Zerker problem, as bad as holy trinity is, it is still way better than all zerker.

I’ll take playing with my own build and slapping some zerker gear on every now and then over having to be forced to wait for a healer/tank to do content any day of the year.
Gw2 is not just about dps, not if you really understand what you have to do and why, its about using the right support skills at the right time while doing w/e you want for dps, which if you think about it is more than most trinity games would have you do( dps=rotation, tank=aggro/control, healer=reactive support). The problem with gw2 pve has little to do with zerker and a lot to do with mobs AI and their ability to be threatening.
The idea of giving every class the ability to perform every role is interesting but it would end up backfiring as eventually people would learn which class ‘x’ does ‘z’ role the best and that’s what would become required on group content and if class ‘y’ tried to perform the same role they’d just be kicked or flamed for not being efficient enough at it and being told to switch to ‘v’ role which their class can do much better or smth.

Rasimir.6239:

There’s a recent game out there that works just like this, to the point where every class can even use every weapon and every armor skill. Theoretically, you should be able to fill every role with every class.

Which game if I may ask?

Rasimir.6239:

Practically, classes are pretty much pigeon-holed into one of the roles, since the ways each class can tank/heal are vastly different and the large majority of players can’t deal with it.
It’s not much differend than the “zerker problem” some people see in GW2: if you want different classes to fulfill the same roles, you need people to adjust to the different playstyles of the classes. Most people can’t handle that, thus there’s a specific class combination considered “meta” and only the best actually understand enough of the system to be able to play with other group set-ups, because they understand that there’s more to it than just doing damage the same old way every fight.

You mean just like how in GW2 every class is pigeon-holed into one specific set of gear with a specific type of build or else be a burden to the team? Just like how specific class combinations and builds are considered “meta” in GW2?

No matter what kind of game you make and what kind of roles your classes have, people will always find the best, fastest or most optimal way of doing things and then that will be considered “the meta”.

My suggestion might not fix that “meta” phenomenon and that wasn’t my intention. My intention was to offer a more engaging, more complex and better-designed PvE experience with a trinity where everyone can be every role. This way you can have a trinity without the burden of the trinity: a shortage of healers.

Sure, with my idea a thief might never be the best healer in the game, a guardian might be better, but he’d still be good enough to get the job done.

Rasimir.6239:

Trinity takes the responsibility of adjusting to everybody’s build/playstyle away for a large part by letting people concentrate on a single aspect of the fight (damage, tanking, healing) and keeps most people from taking in the whole picture, thus making just a few class/role combinations really viable, no matter how many the game theoretically offered.

How is that different in GW2? In GW2’s PvE meta players also concentrate on just a single aspect of the fight. All you need to know in GW2’s PvE meta is your own class and that’s it. And in GW2 you also have just a few classes/role combinations being really viable, that’s not different in GW2. Necros are always a burden and having more than 1 warrior in your party will also slow you down while eles are always desirable and guardians are almost a must for any good party comp.

The “problems” you describe aren’t exclusive to trinity-models, they’re also very present in GW2’s model.

Rasimir.6239:

I used to play a trinity MMO with two tank and two healing classes, one each mainly reactive, the other mostly proactive. You could easily do all content with either class, but you’d be surprised at how little people were actually able to do it. Even many of the good (not best) raids were unable to substitute one class for the other, because they couldn’t adjust their strategies to the different playstyles the classes required. There are a ton of people out there thinking they are good at this type of game but effectively just following strategies they’ve seen on youtube without really understanding them, and those will fail when faced with different abilities that don’t work with their prefered strategies.

And again that is not different in GW2. Most people are not able to survive without a guardian in their group and most warriors don’t know how to adjust their builds to be more optimal when they’re with multiple warriors in a group. People who run the meta but don’t really understand it will fail just as hard in GW2.

Samhaim.8956:

The idea of giving every class the ability to perform every role is interesting but it would end up backfiring as eventually people would learn which class ‘x’ does ‘z’ role the best and that’s what would become required on group content and if class ‘y’ tried to perform the same role they’d just be kicked or flamed for not being efficient enough at it and being told to switch to ‘v’ role which their class can do much better or smth.

Yes, ofcourse with that idea you’d still get a meta eventually. But I’m sure a party or raid-group prefers having a sub-optimal but still decent healer over having no healer at all. So in the case your group can’t find a healer you’d always be able to spec your own class into a healer build and take role of healer for that run. It might not be optimal, but it would still get the job done. It would be no different than GW2 is now, where running more than 1 warrior in your party is sub-optimal, but still doable, hence when a 2nd warrior joins a party he’ll not just automatically get kicked, even in a “80s exp zerker only” run.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

You mean just like how in GW2 every class is pigeon-holed into one specific set of gear with a specific type of build or else be a burden to the team? Just like how specific class combinations and builds are considered “meta” in GW2?

Who is pigeon-holed into one specific type of build? When the good players are in a group, they adapt and change their build every 2 minutes. Want some extra reflects? Got it. Want some extra stealth? Got it. Want some extra condition cleaning? Got it. The good players are changing their utilities, traits and weapons very often in groups, in order to provide the best for their group.

The actually good players don’t run the same set-up everywhere, that’s not the “meta”. For example, Thief and Guardian weapons all have all their uses in a group (maybe except for Guardian Shield) , having all the weapons at hand is important for a smooth experience. There is no “build to rule them all” that people are using to win everything. Versatility, variety and a lot of build making is there, for some reason the “anti-meta” people don’t see it.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Samhaim.8956:

The idea of giving every class the ability to perform every role is interesting but it would end up backfiring as eventually people would learn which class ‘x’ does ‘z’ role the best and that’s what would become required on group content and if class ‘y’ tried to perform the same role they’d just be kicked or flamed for not being efficient enough at it and being told to switch to ‘v’ role which their class can do much better or smth.

Yes, ofcourse with that idea you’d still get a meta eventually. But I’m sure a party or raid-group prefers having a sub-optimal but still decent healer over having no healer at all. So in the case your group can’t find a healer you’d always be able to spec your own class into a healer build and take role of healer for that run. It might not be optimal, but it would still get the job done. It would be no different than GW2 is now, where running more than 1 warrior in your party is sub-optimal, but still doable, hence when a 2nd warrior joins a party he’ll not just automatically get kicked, even in a “80s exp zerker only” run.

So someone will have to get two different sets of gear. One to play what he always does and a second one to play Healer when there is nobody else to do that in the group? Amazing.

Having more than 1 Warriors in a group is fine. Ever heard of Phalanx Strength?

Trinity is a pain in the @$$. Waiting for every role to do something…. Egh…

maddoctor.2738:

Who is pigeon-holed into one specific type of build? When the good players are in a group, they adapt and change their build every 2 minutes. Want some extra reflects? Got it. Want some extra stealth? Got it. Want some extra condition cleaning? Got it. The good players are changing their utilities, traits and weapons very often in groups, in order to provide the best for their group.

I know that. I’m a good (or at least decent) player too you know. But having to change your traits and utility multiple times in some of the dungeon paths for the most optimal run doesn’t change the fact that these players are still pigeon-holed into running these builds if they want to have an optimal experience that is.

As a guardian myself I’m always burned with carrying my team through fights. It’s always my job to make sure everyone is still standing at the end of the fight. I have to provide the blocks, blinds and condi-cleanses. No matter what group comp I run with, if we’re running meta and I’m the only guardian then I’m pigeon-holed into this role. Swapping out a stab for a reflect from time to time doesn’t change that. If I don’t want to be the carrier of the group I’m forced to play a different class or let another guardian do the carrying. But then again the guardian will never be the best DPSer and so having anything else than just 1 guardian who does the carrying will be sub-optimal.

maddoctor.2738:

The actually good players don’t run the same set-up everywhere, that’s not the “meta”. For example, Thief and Guardian weapons all have all their uses in a group (maybe except for Guardian Shield) , having all the weapons at hand is important for a smooth experience. There is “build to rule them all” that people are using to win everything. Versatility, variety and a lot of build making is there, for some reason the “anti-meta” people don’t see it.

But it’s not like you can freely choose which weapon to use whenever. You don’t carry around those weapons for the lulz. You carry them around because you need specific weapons for specific parts of specific dungeon paths. A good guardian player will always have a GS / Sw+F on any path and occasionally swap to GS / Sc+F for ranged encounters and GS / H for most fractals.

Just because you have to take more than 1 weapon set with you doesn’t mean there isn’t pigeon-holing in GW2.

You assume I’m anti-meta. I’m not. I just think the meta of GW2 is one-sided and boring. The PvE content is not deep and challenging enough for me. It’s just not fun.

I love GW2 in almost every way but god do I miss the good old WoW raids. If GW2 had raids like that it really would be the perfect MMO in my books.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

maddoctor.2738:

Who is pigeon-holed into one specific type of build? When the good players are in a group, they adapt and change their build every 2 minutes. Want some extra reflects? Got it. Want some extra stealth? Got it. Want some extra condition cleaning? Got it. The good players are changing their utilities, traits and weapons very often in groups, in order to provide the best for their group.

I know that. I’m a good (or at least decent) player too you know. But having to change your traits and utility multiple times in some of the dungeon paths for the most optimal run doesn’t change the fact that these players are still pigeon-holed into running these builds if they want to have an optimal experience that is.

As a guardian myself I’m always burned with carrying my team through fights. It’s always my job to make sure everyone is still standing at the end of the fight. I have to provide the blocks, blinds and condi-cleanses. No matter what group comp I run with, if we’re running meta and I’m the only guardian then I’m pigeon-holed into this role. Swapping out a stab for a reflect from time to time doesn’t change that. If I don’t want to be the carrier of the group I’m forced to play a different class or let another guardian do the carrying. But then again the guardian will never be the best DPSer and so having anything else than just 1 guardian who does the carrying will be sub-optimal.

maddoctor.2738:

The actually good players don’t run the same set-up everywhere, that’s not the “meta”. For example, Thief and Guardian weapons all have all their uses in a group (maybe except for Guardian Shield) , having all the weapons at hand is important for a smooth experience. There is “build to rule them all” that people are using to win everything. Versatility, variety and a lot of build making is there, for some reason the “anti-meta” people don’t see it.

But it’s not like you can freely choose which weapon to use whenever. You don’t carry around those weapons for the lulz. You carry them around because you need specific weapons for specific parts of specific dungeon paths. A good guardian player will always have a GS / Sw+F on any path and occasionally swap to GS / Sc+F for ranged encounters and GS / H for most fractals.

Just because you have to take more than 1 weapon set with you doesn’t mean there isn’t pigeon-holing in GW2.

You assume I’m anti-meta. I’m not. I just think the meta of GW2 is one-sided and boring. The PvE content is not deep and challenging enough for me. It’s just not fun.

I love GW2 in almost every way but god do I miss the good old WoW raids. If GW2 had raids like that it really would be the perfect MMO in my books.

So a guardian is pigeon-holed to a certain build because he has to use all his weapons and lots of his utilities in a run. Yes, that’s no variety for sure.

And what happens if you add a trinity? Let’s take a Guardian example, the Damage Guardian will use X build, the Healer Guardian will use Y build and the Tank Guardian will use Z build. So instead of using all of them at the same time and switch to what is needed in the specific situation you will use only a small subset of what’s available to you for the entire run.

How is that better?

Holy trinity would make GW2 not GW2, it’d be just like another MMO out there. This genre needs more GW2, not less. While I thoroughly enjoy holy trinity, dating from EQ, to DAOC, to WoW, I find that I appreciate GW2 more because it is NOT holy trinity setup.

There are pros and cons of both, it’s best there are MMO’s that support both styles. I enjoy GW2 for what it is. It can use improvements without turning holy trinity though.

maddoctor.2738:

What happens if you add a trinity? Let’s take a Guardian example, the Damage Guardian will use X build, the Healer Guardian will use Y build and the Tank Guardian will use Z build. So instead of using all of them at the same time and switch to what is needed in the specific situation you will use only a small subset of what’s available to you for the entire run.

How is that better?

It’s better because you can then choose between 3 different playstyles for your class and switch between them when desired or needed, instead of being forced to stick to just 1 role and 1 playstyle.

But that’s just the start of it. When you finally have a holy trinity, you can finally design deep and interesting raids. No longer would you have to stick to the idea that all content should be doable with every class and every build with every group comp, now you can actually design raids with more complex mechanics where taunting, kiting, tanking, healing and bursting is all part of the battle. We only have to look at Wildstar to see how much more interesting dungeons and raids can be when you have a holy trinity. The PvE content of that game are far deeper and far more interesting because it didn’t have to stick to the “it should be doable by everyone in every group comp” philosophy.

If I have to look at GW2 itself and point out what I think is one of the better encounters, I’d say Tequatl The Sunless comes close to what I’d like to see more of. Ironically, Tequatl actually makes use of a trinity of sorts (the zerg being DPS, defense being the tanks and the turrets being the “healers”). But even Teq is too easy and boring these days.

Another encounter I really really like is Triple Trouble, but the problem with that is that it’s open-world and therefor really easy to screw up by PuGs who don’t know what they’re doing. Triple Trouble would have been so much better as an instanced raid. I’d really like to see more stuff like Triple Trouble and Teq but then instanced instead of open-world. But I guess I’m getting off-topic now.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

But that’s just the start of it. When you finally have a holy trinity, you can finally design deep and interesting raids. No longer would you have to stick to the idea that all content should be doable with every class and every build with every group comp, now you can actually design raids with more complex mechanics where taunting, kiting, tanking, healing and bursting is all part of the battle. We only have to look at Wildstar to see how much more interesting dungeons and raids can be when you have a holy trinity. The PvE content of that game are far deeper and far more interesting because it didn’t have to stick to the “it should be doable by everyone in every group comp” philosophy.

And maybe that’s why the Trinity will never happen in this game. Remember that “play how you want” was an important selling factor. Everything is viable in GW2, the question is which is the optimal one (usually optimal = faster)

Let’s see how those deep and interesting mechanics affected Wildstar’s sales and playerbase…. interesting raids don’t always mean a successful game.

Could be that it’d be more successful, could be the opposite. On the one hand, you could more easily recruit players from traditional MMOs. OTOH, you’d lose the current players, or at least a percentage of them.

Difficult to say. But the uniqueness of the class setup would be lost for sure.

A “holy trinity” doesn’t give you more gameplay variation. You can already choose to build your character to take a lot of hits and pick up other players off the ground, or to heal your party for thousands of hit points per second.

All it actually does is allow players to blame other players when they make mistakes. Tank died? Healer’s fault. Healer died? Tank’s fault. Damage dealer died? Everyone else’s fault.

Plus, restricting players to a specific role in a group makes finding a group insanely tedious. And when someone leaves, it prevents the entire group from progressing any further.

Final verdict, your “holy trinity” is an outdated, awful idea that makes Guild Wars 2 a much better game for having revolutionized it.

Rangelost.4857:

A “holy trinity” doesn’t give you more gameplay variation. You can already choose to build your character to take a lot of hits and pick up other players off the ground, or to heal your party for thousands of hit points per second.

All it actually does is allow players to blame other players when they make mistakes. Tank died? Healer’s fault. Healer died? Tank’s fault. Damage dealer died? Everyone else’s fault.

Plus, restricting players to a specific role in a group makes finding a group insanely tedious. And when someone leaves, it prevents the entire group from progressing any further.

Final verdict, your “holy trinity” is an outdated, awful idea that makes Guild Wars 2 a much better game for having revolutionized it.

Well not really, there is no build verity since there is only one build viable in pve Zerker. At least with Trinity you get 3 roles and builds, and the team are doing 3 different things. it also allows Devs to develop group content better. And pls don’t tell me other builds are viable in pve cuz they are not , there is no reason to run build other than zerker.

Rangelost.4857:

A “holy trinity” doesn’t give you more gameplay variation. You can already choose to build your character to take a lot of hits and pick up other players off the ground, or to heal your party for thousands of hit points per second.

All it actually does is allow players to blame other players when they make mistakes. Tank died? Healer’s fault. Healer died? Tank’s fault. Damage dealer died? Everyone else’s fault.

Plus, restricting players to a specific role in a group makes finding a group insanely tedious. And when someone leaves, it prevents the entire group from progressing any further.

Final verdict, your “holy trinity” is an outdated, awful idea that makes Guild Wars 2 a much better game for having revolutionized it.

Holy trinity dose not bring much more verity I agree with, but gw2 all stack then brain dead dps are far worse, also people that are going to argue are going to argue no matter there’s trinity or not , it dose not change their personality.

It’s not about being ‘the best’ or even ‘good’. It’s about being a working game. Wow is, while GW2’s combat is disfunctional.

Tevesh.1265:

It’s not about being ‘the best’ or even ‘good’. It’s about being a working game. Wow is, while GW2’s combat is disfunctional.

Well I would not go that far to say gw2 combat is disfunctinal , it just need big changes, balance from pve point of view, that’s the problem, Anet always balance classes at PvP point of view.

The Trinity or the lack of static, pre-defined and required roles has never been the problem.

It’s the encounter design not needing anything other than damage, and the mob design being a far departure from the players that is the issue.

Id rather have some form of trinity, then “zerk or gtfo”.

What people seem to miss is that every class can fulfill at least 2 roles by itself.

Let’s look at basic zerk warrior
All signets – Pure DPS
With Shouts or Banners (FGJ!, SIO!, Discipline and Strength banners) – Support / DPS
With certain utilities (Throw bolas, Fear me!) – Control / DPS

or perhaps Zerk thief
D/D – All out DPS
S/P – Control / DPS
S/D – Control / DPS

and so on.

warbignime.4610:

Well not really, there is no build verity since there is only one build viable in pve Zerker. At least with Trinity you get 3 roles and builds, and the team are doing 3 different things. it also allows Devs to develop group content better. And pls don’t tell me other builds are viable in pve cuz they are not , there is no reason to run build other than zerker.

I’m going to ignore your last comment and just come out and say it – You’re wrong other builds are viable. Not optimal of course but they’re definitely viable. Also berserker is a gear set not a build. A build is made up of traits and utility skills. Gear is used to compliment and add to that build.

TheDaiBish.9735:

The Trinity or the lack of static, pre-defined and required roles has never been the problem.

It’s the encounter design not needing anything other than damage, and the mob design being a far departure from the players that is the issue.

It still gose downs to no trinity, it limited their boss and dungeon design, they wanted to make DPs/control/support instead of DPs/tank/healer but just failed.