Guild Wars 2

NoTrigger.8396:

warbignime.4610:

Arikyali.5804:

We have a soft trinity, and that is enough. We don’t need a dedicated trinity. Instead of tank, DD, and healer, we have damage mitigation, DPS, and boon support.

No we don’t have soft trinity, we have all zerker.

it would be cool if you would stop telling other people “thats bs” “all zerk” “other builds not viable” when your game knowledge and understanding is abysmal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HNyu0Pw8Q

watch it and learn.

Really ? Dude just because they are there does not mean they are viable, zerkers are the most efficient and rewarding way to play the game , you might be able to ru n dungeon with other build, but zerker will do it much faster and easier.

them healing specs are viable.

viable = works
optimal = works best

before you dont understand that dont talk about viable.

then everyone is a healer in this game already. by using an offensive ability thats also a blast finisher when standing in a water field you become a healer, while dealing damage at the same time.

thats how gw2 works, thats why we dont need a trinity. all we need is more difficult content so we have to make more use of our tools

NoTrigger.8396:

them healing specs are viable.

viable = works
optimal = works best

before you dont understand that dont talk about viable.

then everyone is a healer in this game already. by using an offensive ability thats also a blast finisher when standing in a water field you become a healer, while dealing damage at the same time.

thats how gw2 works, thats why we dont need a trinity. all we need is more difficult content so we have to make more use of our tools

Have a healing skill=\=healer , there are no diffucalt content because this system doesn’t allow it. Anet tried so hard to make difficult content happen but failed most of the time.

warbignime.4610:

you might be able to ru n dungeon with other build, but zerker will do it much faster and easier.

Faster yes, easier no.

Ofc if you speak about level 35 to 55 dungeons (AC to TA) it is easier because downscaling suxx. But I don’t think everyone starting the game gearing with berserker stats and grabing a Meta build (gear =/= build !) will have his life easy.
If you dig in the forum, everyone was whining at release that Dungeons were too hard and that being a zerk was not viable as it was meant too be … but people learned the encounters and taught others. Some people carry noobs who themselves think they are super powerful… but most of the time their examples are taken in low level dungeons.
Arah, COE and HotW are the dungeons to take into account, the others are training grounds.

warbignime.4610:

you might be able to ru n dungeon with other build, but zerker will do it much faster and easier.

this is so much harder to play than berserker right?

OFC berserker will do it faster, because you trade survivability for more damage.

warbignime.4610:

Have a healing skill=\=healer , there are no diffucalt content because this system doesn’t allow it.

and if i tell you now that you are wrong, will you accept it? no you wont.

understanding how gw2 works and whats possible to design encounter wise with the combat system is like 1+1 and getting the right result. its not harder than that. and yet so many people fail understand it… my brain is melting.

warbignime.4610:

Anet tried so hard to make difficult content happen but failed most of the time.

thats the only reason. anet failed and focused too much on ez mode open world stuff.

To answer your OP, any MMO will always have trinity roles. And GW2 is no different. GW2 was designed with a notion that every class will be able to perform the trinity roles to certain extent in the game depending on the build and the situation. To that extent they succeeded greatly. I do not want to see an LFG post “LF Healer AC all paths”. It’s meaningless. If i see my team is lacking defensive support, I can always retrait my guard and bring defensive mechanism or retrait my ele or my warrior. Trinity in GW2 is conceived thru roles than individual toons. This question about trinity pops up mostly because of l2play issue and to an extent because of human resistance to change.

warbignime.4610:

GW2 might not be unique and a better game with holy trinity, but I really do think it would be more successful.

GW2 is a very successful game by it’s own right. It is undoubtedly the most artistic game on the market.

warbignime.4610:

Because as I know 90% of the people were turned down by no holy trinity, which is the only reason people play other mmo(WOW, SWTOR,etc.) instead of GW2, imagine if gw2 went with holy trinity, people often say XXX mmo is WOW killer, I think GW2 would actually kill WOW.
PS: all my opinion.

Nobody is killing nobody. There are people who still play Everquest. there are people who log on to AION everyday and there are people who will continue to play WOW as long as the servers are up.

NoTrigger.8396:

warbignime.4610:

you might be able to ru n dungeon with other build, but zerker will do it much faster and easier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

this is so much harder to play than berserker right?

OFC berserker will do it faster, because you trade survivability for more damage.

warbignime.4610:

Have a healing skill=\=healer , there are no diffucalt content because this system doesn’t allow it.

and if i tell you now that you are wrong, will you accept it? no you wont.

understanding how gw2 works and whats possible to design encounter wise with the combat system is like 1+1 and getting the right result. its not harder than that. and yet so many people fail understand it… my brain is melting.

warbignime.4610:

Anet tried so hard to make difficult content happen but failed most of the time.

thats the only reason. anet failed and focused too much on ez mode open world stuff.

Anet focus a lot on hardcore content, Explore mode are meant to be hardcore, but with zerker meta it became farm fest.

explorer mode never was hardcore and back in the day when we were all noobs and ran around in pvt gear nothing could really hurt us. so how is it a farm fest because of zerker gear?

you realize that not dying ever because you are tanky af is easier to play than squishy berserker?

and i have not seen any hardcore content in gw2 since release.

warbignime.4610:

thefantasticg.3984:

It’s these types of threads I hope the GW2 Game Designers/Developers just don’t read. All this muck about “GW2 would be better with THE holy trinity!” is better off in the trash can where it belongs.

Can you read? I never said gw2 would be better with trinity.

My reading ability is not in question. Your ability to understand what words mean is in question. Since you’re the OP you wrote the thread title, correct? Are the words “HOLY TRINITY” in the thread title that you wrote? Yes, yes they are. In your OP you go on and ENDORSE the Holy Trinity saying it’ll improve GW2. Now, go sit in the corner with the dictionary and look up “viable” and “optimal” because you obviously don’t now what those words mean either.

Aris.5038:

WildStar is a very descent mmo and after Drop 4 population has dramatically increased and new players join every day. Patches are (at last) towards the right direction and Carbine seems to hear their playerbase. Btw since yesterday there is a 10 day trial for new and old players.

2 out of 4 servers have less concurrent players than 30 at any given time, last quarter they made a minus income, Jabbit only looks like Hazak did in Autumn, more than half the devs were fired, no queue pops while leveling, barely any dungeon and pvp queue pops when level 50 and the most required fixes were not implemented until the game started to seriously roll downhill.

I don’t think that they can pull a revival off.

OP clearly hasnt tried running fractals where “all zerk or gtfo” mentalities can, and often will, lead to constant group wipes and run failure. Zerkers, even if they change up traits, are just too kitten squishy in certain areas. Hell, I’ve had times where everyone else died to something and I’ve had to solo the last 20-40% of the boss’s health (kitten you mai trin, kitten you and never again). Why was I able to do that? Because I dont wear zerker.

OP also clearly has never done teq or TT. At teq, if you’re wearing zerker gear, you’re going to be among the dead people kittening for a rez while dead in the zerg. Pony up and wear soldier’s gear so you can actually take a hit. At TT, an all zerker mob is going to fail spectacularly for simple reasons. One of which are the husks which are nearly immune to direct damage. Best way to kill? Conditions. And not your measly warrior condis with the “oh, I poked you, you’re bleeding” effect. I’m talking about a group of players that are basically a combination of the black plague, ebola, and typhoid, with a dash of VX nerve gas. Without those “not viable” builds, you’d be overrun in short order.

Anyways, I gotta head back to my daily fractal on my guardian. Lets hope we dont get mai trin again (why cant we always get jade maw?).

warbignime.4610:

So I was watching Towelliee(a popular WOW streamer), and he said this:
“GW2 has the best PVP and combat out of all MMOs, If GW2 had Holy Trinity, with that pvp and dungeons ,it would be the No.1 MMO in the world” this is his quote,

If he actually said that he’s full of kitten.

You cannot praise the combat and pvp and then suggest something that would so drastically and totally change the combat and pvp without sounding utterly disingenuous.
It would be an entirely different game.

Terrahero.9358:

warbignime.4610:

So I was watching Towelliee(a popular WOW streamer), and he said this:
“GW2 has the best PVP and combat out of all MMOs, If GW2 had Holy Trinity, with that pvp and dungeons ,it would be the No.1 MMO in the world” this is his quote,

If he actually said that he’s full of kitten.

You cannot praise the combat and pvp and then suggest something that would so drastically and totally change the combat and pvp without sounding utterly disingenuous.
It would be an entirely different game.

WE ARE NOTNOTNOT talking about PVP

But you have to talk about PvP. I don’t see how you can even consider the trinity without also considering altering the classes as they stand right now, since, while some classes are slightly better than other at things like “tanking” or “healing”, none of them could fill the role in its entirety at this very moment. Altering the classes considerably will require balance in PvP, which is why PvP must be brought up.

warbignime.4610:

Terrahero.9358:

warbignime.4610:

So I was watching Towelliee(a popular WOW streamer), and he said this:
“GW2 has the best PVP and combat out of all MMOs, If GW2 had Holy Trinity, with that pvp and dungeons ,it would be the No.1 MMO in the world” this is his quote,

If he actually said that he’s full of kitten.

You cannot praise the combat and pvp and then suggest something that would so drastically and totally change the combat and pvp without sounding utterly disingenuous.
It would be an entirely different game.

WE ARE NOTNOTNOT talking about PVP

But… but… op post… eh whatever.

warbignime.4610:

WE ARE NOTNOTNOT talking about PVP

This thread is all about the PvP.

Would a role-based combat system appeal to more players and make the game more successful? No. It might initially bring in a lot of players from the WoW-like crowds but ultimately they would move on again, for a number of reasons.
First, you would lose a whole lot of the current playerbase with such a change, since players who like the current system have stuck with this game, and those who want a trinity have moved on to a trinity game instead.
Second, this game does not have the end-game raiding system and gear progression that WoW players want.
Third, it will not kill WoW because that game has such a deep background and story to pull from, going back to its RTS days. People who have played it have an investment in it that they will be slow to give up. If GW2 was more like WoW, people will still opt for WoW because they already have their characters developed, gold banked, professions maxed, etc and don’t have to worry about building from the ground up. When GW2 launched I pulled in a handful of my friends to play but as soon as Blizzard released another expansion they all left again.
Sure there are players burned out and ready to move on to something fresh and build from the ground up – those players will not want a WoW clone.

warbignime.4610:

Terrahero.9358:

warbignime.4610:

So I was watching Towelliee(a popular WOW streamer), and he said this:
“GW2 has the best PVP and combat out of all MMOs, If GW2 had Holy Trinity, with that pvp and dungeons ,it would be the No.1 MMO in the world” this is his quote,

If he actually said that he’s full of kitten.

You cannot praise the combat and pvp and then suggest something that would so drastically and totally change the combat and pvp without sounding utterly disingenuous.
It would be an entirely different game.

WE ARE NOTNOTNOT talking about PVP

You were the one fawning over that quote that clearly mentioned pvp. And to think a trinity wouldn’t drastically impact pvp is naïve at best.

anyway, I stick to my guns. That quote is bullkitten and self-contradictory.

• At the end of the day, none of us can say whether GW2 would be a better game with trinity. We can only say whether it would be a better game for ourselves.
• GW2 with aggro mechanics from GW and healer/protectors would be a better game for me. Gw2 with classic taunt tanks would be vastly inferior.
• We can safely say that GW2 with trinity would be a vastly different game, with little resemblance to the current game.
• The “boring” dungeon encounters in GW2 are the equivalent of trinity MMO tank n’ spank encounters, which are also deathly boring.
• Trinity mechanics, aside from being stupid with regard to mob behavior, do not add diversity or complexity to games in and of themselves.
• They do not add complexity because the aggro/heal/dps mechanic is the same from encounter to encounter. Complexity comes from boss phases, which can be utilized regardless of trinity.
• Trinity adds a semblance of diversity because of dedicated roles. This is not real diversity. Real diversity is a game balance issue. When one build is the best for a role/class combo, that’s the build that’s demanded. So, in GW2 you have 5 players using the optimal build for their profession just as in a trinity game you have 5 (or 4 or 6) players using the optimal build for their class.
• GW2 has roles, which are things like Might Stacker, Defensive Boon Provider, Cleanser, etc.
• If anything, GW2 PvE provides for more diversity than trinity games, because encounters can be beaten without using every possible contribution to the group effort available. try doing without a tank or healer in a trinity game. You can get away with it rarely, but mostly you can’t. That also tends to mean that GW2 PvE, or at least some encounters, are seen as too easy by those who know the game.

I actually prefer GW2 as it is without the holy trinity. Any class can basically do what they want. I have run PUGs though many dungeons without a classic tank class, no war or guards. I have seen a war get taken out fast than my glass cannon ele. This is what I love about GW2. The character and build is your own. I think it would ruin more dungeon runs with the trinity. There would be constant call out for healers, ect. for dungons and such. Getting into a pick up game of PvP with people you dont know would be a dice roll, what happens if you dont get a good healer or tank or …. The way it is now, people know their class, they know their character. You generally know how much damage you can take. You know when you pop your heals, and when you pull out of battle to recover.

What I remember most from WoW and GW1. Party wipe is most the time the healers fault as he/she couldnt keep the tank/dps/ect alive long enough. Now it might be someones fault if we party wipe or it might be just a bad engagement that caught one or two of us off guard which started the wipe.

I’d say You all with zerk only is best are wrong It is a good base to start but not universally useable.

I’d say You all with holy trinity is best are wrong as you loose the freedom to play, have a huge LFG waiting for x proffession with y role…, and are no longer ale to change things after someone says well new meta is buffer, healer/condicleanser, c/c tank, DPS and stripper/stealth/utility bearer…. Cause your change will change something others want to rely on instead of relying on their own capabilities. It will also make the group fully reliant on others, so if something goes wrong you loose your/others capabilities which are made for the group as a whole and you’ll be left vulnerable. It will cause ppl with other ideas to be cast aside even though they might run selfsustainable builds cause you need our whatever or you cannot play yourself which is dumb if not selfish…

I’d think why can’t you all just understand you should be flexible. In some fights you’ll need some CC : get it, or condi remove, take it, sometimes you need support, well retrait, the 15s it takes can be so usefull. even full zerk warrior can be made tanky instant by just traiting 4/0/6/0/4 and go a/m Hmr CC or support by switching to shout heal 4/4/0/6/0 GS a/w and shouts/condiremove or combine those 2. Yes a bit less dps but good sustain…

The fact people only stick to meta shows indifference and unimaginativity as well as no notion how to compensate for things other then HP bags. For the brainless wannabees….. Zerk DPS If you know your class you know DPS is a role witch means: We do not trust you to do more they just spam your DPS chain….. Leaving your DPS role and evolving to be more then just the DPS spammer takes more skill then most see atm.

Having said this I must also say the game itself only rarely challenges players to think outside the box, but It’s my guess that’s also why we were forced to eat the NPE, due to many people not able to search for answers… and evolve.

If I look at skill in play I got som quesyions for you:
Do I know my character’s main weapon set and armor for DPS?
Do I know my character’s main DPS build?
Do I know my characters main chain?
If YES: Well good for you: you have been abled to level your character and do DPS.. lvl 80 wannabee zerk runs. EotM. Casual/Social guild…

Continuing the questions:
Do I know my characters CC weapon sets and armor?
Do I know my characters Support weapon sets and armor?
Do I know my characters Condition weapon sets and armor?
Do I know the utility of all utility skills?
Do I know all combo fields and finishers on ALL weapons?
Do I know all builds for tanky/condition/CC/support builds?
Do I know what sigils and runes are most usefull on main alternate weapon sets and armor, and why?
Do I know the chains on alternate builds?
Do you know where to use these builds?
If YES: Okay now you know the -basics- of your Class, you can learn everything. l80 EXP, PvX guild , BL WvW pug.

Last questions:
Can you call out all foods you’ll be needing if you want to use all capabilities for your character? Do you USE them?
Can you name all your weaknesses vs all other classes in 1 vs 1 engagements? Can you name their weaknesses as well ?
Can you think of a fast workaround if you do not have the utilities available vs your adversary if you find time to pop some food or change a utility but do not have the time to change armor and build ?
Do you know which utilities/armor/weapons you should have for running, pulling, stacking, supporting, condiing,CC-ing, open fielding, wvw-ing, pvp-ing? AND WHEN TO SWITCH?
Can you theory craft solo builds for engagements?

Well here you go you are starting to comprehend your class to a point where it is actually usefullL True lvl 80. Speedrun guild, Ded WvW guild, PvP guilds. lets hope the wannabees stay out…

warbignime.4610:

NoTrigger.8396:

warbignime.4610:

Arikyali.5804:

We have a soft trinity, and that is enough. We don’t need a dedicated trinity. Instead of tank, DD, and healer, we have damage mitigation, DPS, and boon support.

No we don’t have soft trinity, we have all zerker.

it would be cool if you would stop telling other people “thats bs” “all zerk” “other builds not viable” when your game knowledge and understanding is abysmal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HNyu0Pw8Q

watch it and learn.

Really ? Dude just because they are there does not mean they are viable, zerkers are the most efficient and rewarding way to play the game , you might be able to ru n dungeon with other build, but zerker will do it much faster and easier.

• “We are all zerker”, that is true.
• “We are all DPS”, that is false.

Everyone is control/support/dps at the same time.

The absence of the traditional trinity doesn’t limit GW2 any more than the inclusion of that trinity limits WoW and other games. Content that has to be designed around the traditional trinity means working out ways to avoid ‘cheese’ tanking, cheese healing, and offer enough health that stuff can’t die quickly. In contrast, GW2 allows the potential for all sorts of teams to play, without depending on the traditional roles.

The issues with GW2’s dungeons is that players quickly figured out how to beat the AI easily, so all of the speedy runs boil down to figuring out how to stack might, vulnerability, and thus make most foe mechanics moot. ANet has started to address this in open world content, but largely has left dungeons and fractals untouched.

Thus, the real issue isn’t the trinity (or lack thereof). It’s that players are evolving faster than ANet is changing the content.

(Incidentally: DPs/Control/Support is present in the speed-clearing, although somewhat dull. Support is primarily might stacking + stealthing through disliked-mechanics. Control is primarily about using LoS to draw foes into a corner and sometimes about pulling them; only occasionally do people use skills to pull beyond that first aggro. And, of course, DPS is king, as it is in all games ultimately.)

runeblade.7514:

• “We are all zerker”, that is true.
• “We are all DPS”, that is false.

Everyone is control/support/dps at the same time.

My Mesmer and Engineer are both Assassin

Holy trinity just wouldn’t work in GW2, and people don’t want it to work. For holy trinity you NEED a dungeon gear grind and time sink. GW2 has none of that and i’m glad, ive spent too many hours grinding for some kittenty gear just so i can then grind for better gear to do the next dungeon. Its stupidly boring and only certain people who have been forced into thinking this is end game enjoy it.

End game is the worst idea developers have put into any MMO players minds. It refers to running dungeons/raids hundreds of times to get gear that everyone else is also mindlessly grinding for. Its just boring and the only way to keep you in the game is because it is so called ‘End Game’ that everyone else is brain washed into thinking that its cool.

Holy trinity is boring and would make this game worse, would lose half the mechanics that make it NOT a holy trinity and then just a regular grind kittenty game.

PvE is easy in any game after you run it 3+ times.

AdaephonDelat.3890:

warbignime.4610:

AdaephonDelat.3890:

warbignime.4610:

Well not really, there is no build verity since there is only one build viable in pve Zerker. At least with Trinity you get 3 roles and builds, and the team are doing 3 different things. it also allows Devs to develop group content better. And pls don’t tell me other builds are viable in pve cuz they are not , there is no reason to run build other than zerker.

I’m going to ignore your last comment and just come out and say it – You’re wrong other builds are viable. Not optimal of course but they’re definitely viable. Also berserker is a gear set not a build. A build is made up of traits and utility skills. Gear is used to compliment and add to that build.

I’m sorry but that’s BS ,you know what I mean when I say berserker build so don’t play words. Have you ever seen a single group said “we accept non zerkers”? That’s the easiest and most rewarding way to play the game so people are going to do it, non zerker are just not wanted in pve that’s fact.

Yes I have. All of my groups accept non zerkers. All of my groups accept non level 80’s as well. Well assuming the dungeon itself is not level 80. There are lots of non zerker groups. Just because you’re too blinkered to see it doesn’t mean it’s not there.

OT: No I don’t think the trinity would make this a better game. More successful possibly. If it was more raid/dungeon focused like other trinity games then it would appeal to more of those players.

but then it might appeal to less of the current population and have to compete with all those other raid focused games.

I see a lot of people bringing up that not the lack of a holy trinity but the lack of complex encounters is what created the zerker mentality which is the reason why GW2’s PvE feels so boring and monotone.

I agree with that. The lack of a holy trinity isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but I do believe it is a lot harder to create engaging content, especially if you use the design philosophy that anything should be beatable by any build / group comp.

The holy trinity might not necessarily be better, but it’s a tried and proven concept that we know is solid and works. It is a lot easier to develop solid content for the holy trinity than it is for GW2’s system.

I commend you Anet for trying something new, but I think it’s fair to say that your experiment failed. What we have right now is not better than the holy trinity, it is actually worse.

warbignime.4610:

Arikyali.5804:

We have a soft trinity, and that is enough. We don’t need a dedicated trinity. Instead of tank, DD, and healer, we have damage mitigation, DPS, and boon support.

No we don’t have soft trinity, we have all zerker.

Zerker is not a role, nor a build. It’s gear STATS, plain and simple.

Unless you are one of those people without that call a Wall of Reflection from a Guardian using Berserker gear still a “Damage role”, and the same Guardian using WoR with Nomad gear a “Tank role”, which doesn’t make any sense. Your gear is NOT your role nor is your build.

Yes we have lots of zerkers, that’s specific GEAR stats, they don’t affect your playstyle AT ALL. You can still Support AND Control, in fact the best groups mostly Support and Control, more than focusing on pure damage.

Might boons? Blinds? Stealth? Reflections? Stability? Condition removal? Are these all “Damage”? That’s why it’s called a soft trinity, Damage, Support and Control. Everyone can do all three to a certain degree, and all are important for a smooth and good run.

If all groups were all about damage, then Necromancers would be in meta groups because their DPS is comparable to lots of professions. While Mesmers are known to be among the lowest professions in DPS, yet they find lots of use even in the most hardcore “LF zerker only” groups. Explain to me why if everything is about damage?

Because Necromancers lack offensive Support, while Mesmers have loads of Support and Control even though their damage is lacking.

So by applying simple logic, we DO have a soft trinity and Control and Support are equally important (if not MORE important) than Damage.

runeblade.7514:

warbignime.4610:

NoTrigger.8396:

warbignime.4610:

Arikyali.5804:

We have a soft trinity, and that is enough. We don’t need a dedicated trinity. Instead of tank, DD, and healer, we have damage mitigation, DPS, and boon support.

No we don’t have soft trinity, we have all zerker.

it would be cool if you would stop telling other people “thats bs” “all zerk” “other builds not viable” when your game knowledge and understanding is abysmal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HNyu0Pw8Q

watch it and learn.

Really ? Dude just because they are there does not mean they are viable, zerkers are the most efficient and rewarding way to play the game , you might be able to ru n dungeon with other build, but zerker will do it much faster and easier.

• “We are all zerker”, that is true.
• “We are all DPS”, that is false.

Everyone is control/support/dps at the same time.

I think you would be suprised how hard we can laugh at the casual GS Zerk warrior in WvW it is not LOL… ROFL is still quite and understatement, The fact I get questions: “Why do you survive and I do not?” is generally answered; “Because I do not run a glass build.” I’ll point out we call zerkers walking lootbags. Okay you might have 3000+ power but you will die, fast, or instant. I ran my S/S warrior for quite a while as roamer and found a lot of zerkers just run the meta without condiclears… You tend to die often in roamer infested areas without cleans, I’ve seen more condi warriors, necros, mesmers, thieves, rangers and engies in roamer parties then anywhere other in gw2 except maybe pvp…. And while many proffessions have a cleanse in meta builds : warrior doesn’t, warriors use healing signet, not the heal with the 3 condition clears or shake it off instead of FGJ…. As it is 2 clicks too many….

So they eat 25 stack of bleeds and near perma cripple to enjoy 5 stacks of torment to the fullest and those who are fullmeta do not have ranged as well, so when in doubt kite’m to death with LB… I rarely run my hybrid S/S nowadays, running glass well burst necro support for zerging or PU condi mesmer , Condi Trapper ranger or Hybrid/Condi thief, just for the fun of it… Had quite soem fun running my S/S warrior in SW though.

On the other hand:

I run speedrun builds, I love dungeons, but I tend to see more wannabee’s…
I sometimes run hammer warrior (4/0/6/0/4) in dungeons… P2 Cof is a good place for hammer, or mace offhand… I do not see the point in running GS A/M when I need CC’s and my parties are generally questioning a hammer until the gate opens the 3 ingniters step out open up and get hammered into silence. Even though the dmg is less most warriors still camp GS, Guardian can pull them, and use hammer as well, necro’s can fear them, ranger can headshot or knockback them but it is a pain if they do so from the stacked position or without piercing arrows, engineers can blow’m up, but everybody stands there eating triple flamethrower….. or running around like headless chickens, and consequently doing no damage..

Why can’t people be creative? Suggesting the trinity isn’t creative, it’s trying to copy the familiar to something which is good already without said familiar…. making a tank losing 50+% DPS and a healer losing 30+% dps willnot allow the dps-ers to fuction better then they are doing now. a GOOD guardian will blind/heal/reflect/stabilize and protect, a good warrior will buff 1000+ points of power, a good ele will prestack with the help of the party will speedbuff, will heal and will AOE. A good thief will stay alive and kill all solo targets with maximum efficinecy and provide vulnerability, and stealth, necro’s will AOE DPS, blind, protect heal and provide vulnerability and boonstrip. Mesmer will reflect, cleanse, boonstrip and timewarp, provides portals, pull without cripples, DPS…..ranger will provide vulnerability, healing condi cleanse (waterfield), will push if needed, can buff what is needed with pet and can spec to do GOOD dmg at 1500 range…. And enigineer can do everything others cannot.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

I see a lot of people bringing up that not the lack of a holy trinity but the lack of complex encounters is what created the zerker mentality which is the reason why GW2’s PvE feels so boring and monotone.

I agree with that. The lack of a holy trinity isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but I do believe it is a lot harder to create engaging content, especially if you use the design philosophy that anything should be beatable by any build / group comp.

The holy trinity might not necessarily be better, but it’s a tried and proven concept that we know is solid and works. It is a lot easier to develop solid content for the holy trinity than it is for GW2’s system.

I commend you Anet for trying something new, but I think it’s fair to say that your experiment failed. What we have right now is not better than the holy trinity, it is actually worse.

Actually that’s not true. There are some encounters in the game that are interesting, like Lupicus, and other bosses, like the duo in Aetherblade path etc

There is no problem in making content beatable with most combinations builds, where Anet failed is making all this open world. Open world content will never be hard enough, when content is created not only to be doable by any build, but with ANY number of people (after a minimum threshold) then we have a problem.

Even encounters like Tequatl and the Triple Wurm do not engage EVERYONE, but lots of people can just be freeloaders. THIS is the main problem, they need to engage EVERYONE involved in an encounter, and that’s not possible with Open World content unfortunately. Once the important slots are filled (condi team to kill husks in Triple Wurm, turret defenders in Tequatl) the rest of the players can form massive blobs to just auto-attack.

The best open world fight Anet has ever done so far (mechanic wise) was the Marionette, an encounter than ENGAGED everyone involved. Every single player playing there had to play and in some way be good at his game in order to win. Single players could make a difference (for good or worse)

tl ; dr: the problem isn’t the lack of trinity, it’s the emphasis on open world content instead of instances, the mechanics of GW2 simply don’t work in open world well. This is because the open world content is not ENGAGING and INTERESTING for everyone playing it, some can just stand still and auto-attack and still win because others are doing the important work. The game needs content that EVERY single player doing it has to pay attention and contribute actively.

warbignime.4610:

Anet focus a lot on hardcore content, Explore mode are meant to be hardcore, but with zerker meta it became farm fest.

Because, of course, nobody ever puts a proper raid on farm.

Do I need to trot out my explanation of how gear stat choices work in trinity MMOs yet again? Or maybe I should remind you of what the basic definition of hit points means to players?

Or maybe I should remind you that in many good trinity MMOs, a healer’s DPS parse (that’s damage per second) can tell you more about how skilled they are than it would if they were a DPS?

This is a stupid thread that just creates arguments, GW2 will never have a trinity in mmo terms as it doesn’t need it. The game isn’t based around farming dungeons for better rewards, it is more focused on enjoying what you are doing.

The game simply doesn’t reward hard content for the time and 9 times out of 10, people will do cof 1 instead of cof 3 if they only have time to do one dungeon. Its easier, faster and gives same rewards.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The absence of the traditional trinity doesn’t limit GW2 any more than the inclusion of that trinity limits WoW and other games. Content that has to be designed around the traditional trinity means working out ways to avoid ‘cheese’ tanking, cheese healing, and offer enough health that stuff can’t die quickly. In contrast, GW2 allows the potential for all sorts of teams to play, without depending on the traditional roles.

The issues with GW2’s dungeons is that players quickly figured out how to beat the AI easily, so all of the speedy runs boil down to figuring out how to stack might, vulnerability, and thus make most foe mechanics moot. ANet has started to address this in open world content, but largely has left dungeons and fractals untouched.

Thus, the real issue isn’t the trinity (or lack thereof). It’s that players are evolving faster than ANet is changing the content.

(Incidentally: DPs/Control/Support is present in the speed-clearing, although somewhat dull. Support is primarily might stacking + stealthing through disliked-mechanics. Control is primarily about using LoS to draw foes into a corner and sometimes about pulling them; only occasionally do people use skills to pull beyond that first aggro. And, of course, DPS is king, as it is in all games ultimately.)

Well if thats the case, than which AI is less dumb, the Trinity AI or the Non-Trinity AI?

Knighthonor.4061:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The absence of the traditional trinity doesn’t limit GW2 any more than the inclusion of that trinity limits WoW and other games. Content that has to be designed around the traditional trinity means working out ways to avoid ‘cheese’ tanking, cheese healing, and offer enough health that stuff can’t die quickly. In contrast, GW2 allows the potential for all sorts of teams to play, without depending on the traditional roles.

The issues with GW2’s dungeons is that players quickly figured out how to beat the AI easily, so all of the speedy runs boil down to figuring out how to stack might, vulnerability, and thus make most foe mechanics moot. ANet has started to address this in open world content, but largely has left dungeons and fractals untouched.

Thus, the real issue isn’t the trinity (or lack thereof). It’s that players are evolving faster than ANet is changing the content.

(Incidentally: DPs/Control/Support is present in the speed-clearing, although somewhat dull. Support is primarily might stacking + stealthing through disliked-mechanics. Control is primarily about using LoS to draw foes into a corner and sometimes about pulling them; only occasionally do people use skills to pull beyond that first aggro. And, of course, DPS is king, as it is in all games ultimately.)

Well if thats the case, than which AI is less dumb, the Trinity AI or the Non-Trinity AI?

There is very limited AI in aggro based games. Mobs just attack and follow the character on top of their list, a list that is manipulated by directly using skills (and is even visible on lots of those games with addons).

The same can be said about heavy scripted encounters, like most (if not all) MMORPG Raid bosses with specific phases (at 90% do this, at 60% do that, at 25% kill everyone etc) The AI in most MMORPGs is like that because players like “learning” encounters, memorize them and defeat them. If an element of real intelligence is added, it will make encounters unpredictable.

The best AI is the AI that surprises the players with unexpected moves, the best AI is the AI that has hidden patterns and takes decisions on the fly to change tactics. But that same type of AI maybe isn’t appropriate for most MMORPGs.

Do we want encounters you can beat with enough trial and error / practice / memorizing of patterns or we want encounters to be all about skill to face the unpredictable? I’m not sure MMORPG players want random elements in their bosses

Non Trinity AIs have the potential to be great if made properly. Trinity AI is almost non-existent, it’s only about manipulating aggro bars.

Knighthonor.4061:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The absence of the traditional trinity doesn’t limit GW2 any more than the inclusion of that trinity limits WoW and other games. Content that has to be designed around the traditional trinity means working out ways to avoid ‘cheese’ tanking, cheese healing, and offer enough health that stuff can’t die quickly. In contrast, GW2 allows the potential for all sorts of teams to play, without depending on the traditional roles.

The issues with GW2’s dungeons is that players quickly figured out how to beat the AI easily, so all of the speedy runs boil down to figuring out how to stack might, vulnerability, and thus make most foe mechanics moot. ANet has started to address this in open world content, but largely has left dungeons and fractals untouched.

Thus, the real issue isn’t the trinity (or lack thereof). It’s that players are evolving faster than ANet is changing the content.

(Incidentally: DPs/Control/Support is present in the speed-clearing, although somewhat dull. Support is primarily might stacking + stealthing through disliked-mechanics. Control is primarily about using LoS to draw foes into a corner and sometimes about pulling them; only occasionally do people use skills to pull beyond that first aggro. And, of course, DPS is king, as it is in all games ultimately.)

Well if thats the case, than which AI is less dumb, the Trinity AI or the Non-Trinity AI?

Considering the tricks I used to do in my old trinity games, I’d say the Non-Trinity, though it has nothing to do with trinity/no trinity but simply the games design quality.

maddoctor.2738:

Knighthonor.4061:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The absence of the traditional trinity doesn’t limit GW2 any more than the inclusion of that trinity limits WoW and other games. Content that has to be designed around the traditional trinity means working out ways to avoid ‘cheese’ tanking, cheese healing, and offer enough health that stuff can’t die quickly. In contrast, GW2 allows the potential for all sorts of teams to play, without depending on the traditional roles.

The issues with GW2’s dungeons is that players quickly figured out how to beat the AI easily, so all of the speedy runs boil down to figuring out how to stack might, vulnerability, and thus make most foe mechanics moot. ANet has started to address this in open world content, but largely has left dungeons and fractals untouched.

Thus, the real issue isn’t the trinity (or lack thereof). It’s that players are evolving faster than ANet is changing the content.

(Incidentally: DPs/Control/Support is present in the speed-clearing, although somewhat dull. Support is primarily might stacking + stealthing through disliked-mechanics. Control is primarily about using LoS to draw foes into a corner and sometimes about pulling them; only occasionally do people use skills to pull beyond that first aggro. And, of course, DPS is king, as it is in all games ultimately.)

Well if thats the case, than which AI is less dumb, the Trinity AI or the Non-Trinity AI?

There is very limited AI in aggro based games. Mobs just attack and follow the character on top of their list, a list that is manipulated by directly using skills (and is even visible on lots of those games with addons).

The same can be said about heavy scripted encounters, like most (if not all) MMORPG Raid bosses with specific phases (at 90% do this, at 60% do that, at 25% kill everyone etc) The AI in most MMORPGs is like that because players like “learning” encounters, memorize them and defeat them. If an element of real intelligence is added, it will make encounters unpredictable.

The best AI is the AI that surprises the players with unexpected moves, the best AI is the AI that has hidden patterns and takes decisions on the fly to change tactics. But that same type of AI maybe isn’t appropriate for most MMORPGs.

Do we want encounters you can beat with enough trial and error / practice / memorizing of patterns or we want encounters to be all about skill to face the unpredictable? I’m not sure MMORPG players want random elements in their bosses

Non Trinity AIs have the potential to be great if made properly. Trinity AI is almost non-existent, it’s only about manipulating aggro bars.

This is an interesting article about why the AI can’t be too smart in a video game.

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2014/03/maybe-we-cant-handle-smart-enemies-in-our-games/

The PvE combat system is very flawed. Boss fights are very straight forward and require very little strategies. I want to see DPS, Support and Control (Like we were promised) and the dungeons need to be designed in the way that a support/control class is needed. I hope they fix this next expansion.

Khisanth.2948:

AdaephonDelat.3890:

warbignime.4610:

AdaephonDelat.3890:

warbignime.4610:

Well not really, there is no build verity since there is only one build viable in pve Zerker. At least with Trinity you get 3 roles and builds, and the team are doing 3 different things. it also allows Devs to develop group content better. And pls don’t tell me other builds are viable in pve cuz they are not , there is no reason to run build other than zerker.

I’m going to ignore your last comment and just come out and say it – You’re wrong other builds are viable. Not optimal of course but they’re definitely viable. Also berserker is a gear set not a build. A build is made up of traits and utility skills. Gear is used to compliment and add to that build.

I’m sorry but that’s BS ,you know what I mean when I say berserker build so don’t play words. Have you ever seen a single group said “we accept non zerkers”? That’s the easiest and most rewarding way to play the game so people are going to do it, non zerker are just not wanted in pve that’s fact.

Yes I have. All of my groups accept non zerkers. All of my groups accept non level 80’s as well. Well assuming the dungeon itself is not level 80. There are lots of non zerker groups. Just because you’re too blinkered to see it doesn’t mean it’s not there.

OT: No I don’t think the trinity would make this a better game. More successful possibly. If it was more raid/dungeon focused like other trinity games then it would appeal to more of those players.

but then it might appeal to less of the current population and have to compete with all those other raid focused games.

Yup also very true. My wording in that previous post could have been better. What I meant to say was whilst trinity may have bought in some of those players, if they wanted to try to be successful going down that route then they would would possibly have better success drawing those players in with a raiding/dungeon focus. I am no way advocating that they add trinity although a few more instances wouldn’t hurt.

Jerus.4350:

Knighthonor.4061:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The absence of the traditional trinity doesn’t limit GW2 any more than the inclusion of that trinity limits WoW and other games. Content that has to be designed around the traditional trinity means working out ways to avoid ‘cheese’ tanking, cheese healing, and offer enough health that stuff can’t die quickly. In contrast, GW2 allows the potential for all sorts of teams to play, without depending on the traditional roles.

The issues with GW2’s dungeons is that players quickly figured out how to beat the AI easily, so all of the speedy runs boil down to figuring out how to stack might, vulnerability, and thus make most foe mechanics moot. ANet has started to address this in open world content, but largely has left dungeons and fractals untouched.

Thus, the real issue isn’t the trinity (or lack thereof). It’s that players are evolving faster than ANet is changing the content.

(Incidentally: DPs/Control/Support is present in the speed-clearing, although somewhat dull. Support is primarily might stacking + stealthing through disliked-mechanics. Control is primarily about using LoS to draw foes into a corner and sometimes about pulling them; only occasionally do people use skills to pull beyond that first aggro. And, of course, DPS is king, as it is in all games ultimately.)

Well if thats the case, than which AI is less dumb, the Trinity AI or the Non-Trinity AI?

Considering the tricks I used to do in my old trinity games, I’d say the Non-Trinity, though it has nothing to do with trinity/no trinity but simply the games design quality.

well going off the statements some of you all made in this thread, some of you have said that GW2 Dungeon mob AI gets exploited all the time. But i have never seen that degree of AI explotation in a Trinity game like WoW or Rift… so it would seem that the Trinity AI although not Terminator smart, is still superior to the the Non-Trinity Mob AI found in GW2.

Ezra.5049:

The PvE combat system is very flawed. Boss fights are very straight forward and require very little strategies. I want to see DPS, Support and Control (Like we were promised) and the dungeons need to be designed in the way that a support/control class is needed. I hope they fix this next expansion.

There’s really no point to repeating it because if you haven’t understood yet you probably just don’t want to, but support is huge, and control is even quite effective though not as important as support. Support simply isn’t healing, and the only “support” stat we ahve is healing power, so yeah… gear for support/control doesn’t matter really.

I suggest you watch this though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0HNyu0Pw8Q

maddoctor.2738:

Knighthonor.4061:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The absence of the traditional trinity doesn’t limit GW2 any more than the inclusion of that trinity limits WoW and other games. Content that has to be designed around the traditional trinity means working out ways to avoid ‘cheese’ tanking, cheese healing, and offer enough health that stuff can’t die quickly. In contrast, GW2 allows the potential for all sorts of teams to play, without depending on the traditional roles.

The issues with GW2’s dungeons is that players quickly figured out how to beat the AI easily, so all of the speedy runs boil down to figuring out how to stack might, vulnerability, and thus make most foe mechanics moot. ANet has started to address this in open world content, but largely has left dungeons and fractals untouched.

Thus, the real issue isn’t the trinity (or lack thereof). It’s that players are evolving faster than ANet is changing the content.

(Incidentally: DPs/Control/Support is present in the speed-clearing, although somewhat dull. Support is primarily might stacking + stealthing through disliked-mechanics. Control is primarily about using LoS to draw foes into a corner and sometimes about pulling them; only occasionally do people use skills to pull beyond that first aggro. And, of course, DPS is king, as it is in all games ultimately.)

Well if thats the case, than which AI is less dumb, the Trinity AI or the Non-Trinity AI?

There is very limited AI in aggro based games. Mobs just attack and follow the character on top of their list, a list that is manipulated by directly using skills (and is even visible on lots of those games with addons).

The same can be said about heavy scripted encounters, like most (if not all) MMORPG Raid bosses with specific phases (at 90% do this, at 60% do that, at 25% kill everyone etc) The AI in most MMORPGs is like that because players like “learning” encounters, memorize them and defeat them. If an element of real intelligence is added, it will make encounters unpredictable.

The best AI is the AI that surprises the players with unexpected moves, the best AI is the AI that has hidden patterns and takes decisions on the fly to change tactics. But that same type of AI maybe isn’t appropriate for most MMORPGs.

Do we want encounters you can beat with enough trial and error / practice / memorizing of patterns or we want encounters to be all about skill to face the unpredictable? I’m not sure MMORPG players want random elements in their bosses

Non Trinity AIs have the potential to be great if made properly. Trinity AI is almost non-existent, it’s only about manipulating aggro bars.

that all being said, AI in trinity games like Rift and WoW, still are far more challenging than any Mob AI in GW2.

In fact i would go as far as to say that Mob AI is more predictable in Non-Trinity MMO PvE than it is in Trinity PvE. We see a clear example of this by looking at GW2’s PvE content. The Bosses are very predictable, and the Mob AI is easy to exploit, which is the reason the glass cannon Zerker has been the PvE meta all along. GW2 Pretty much proves my point. ???

maddoctor.2738:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

I see a lot of people bringing up that not the lack of a holy trinity but the lack of complex encounters is what created the zerker mentality which is the reason why GW2’s PvE feels so boring and monotone.

I agree with that. The lack of a holy trinity isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but I do believe it is a lot harder to create engaging content, especially if you use the design philosophy that anything should be beatable by any build / group comp.

The holy trinity might not necessarily be better, but it’s a tried and proven concept that we know is solid and works. It is a lot easier to develop solid content for the holy trinity than it is for GW2’s system.

I commend you Anet for trying something new, but I think it’s fair to say that your experiment failed. What we have right now is not better than the holy trinity, it is actually worse.

Actually that’s not true. There are some encounters in the game that are interesting, like Lupicus, and other bosses, like the duo in Aetherblade path etc

There is no problem in making content beatable with most combinations builds, where Anet failed is making all this open world. Open world content will never be hard enough, when content is created not only to be doable by any build, but with ANY number of people (after a minimum threshold) then we have a problem.

Even encounters like Tequatl and the Triple Wurm do not engage EVERYONE, but lots of people can just be freeloaders. THIS is the main problem, they need to engage EVERYONE involved in an encounter, and that’s not possible with Open World content unfortunately. Once the important slots are filled (condi team to kill husks in Triple Wurm, turret defenders in Tequatl) the rest of the players can form massive blobs to just auto-attack.

The best open world fight Anet has ever done so far (mechanic wise) was the Marionette, an encounter than ENGAGED everyone involved. Every single player playing there had to play and in some way be good at his game in order to win. Single players could make a difference (for good or worse)

tl ; dr: the problem isn’t the lack of trinity, it’s the emphasis on open world content instead of instances, the mechanics of GW2 simply don’t work in open world well. This is because the open world content is not ENGAGING and INTERESTING for everyone playing it, some can just stand still and auto-attack and still win because others are doing the important work. The game needs content that EVERY single player doing it has to pay attention and contribute actively.

I don’t fully agree with everything you said, but I definitely do agree that the boss battles like Tequatl and Triple Trouble are worse off for being open-world. I said that myself earlier in this thread. Teq and Triple would have been so much better if it was instanced.

I really do hope HoT will give us more content like Teq and Triple, but instanced instead of open-world.

Seriously Anet, this game needs instanced raids, way more than it needs a holy trinity.

If Anet will give us 20+ men instanced raids and they can actually make them interesting, balanced and engaging without a holy trinity setup, only then will I be fully convinced that the holy trinity is outdated and not needed to create good, balanced and engaging PvE content.

Knighthonor.4061:

that all being said, AI in trinity games like Rift and WoW, still are far more challenging than any Mob AI in GW2.

In fact i would go as far as to say that Mob AI is more predictable in Non-Trinity MMO PvE than it is in Trinity PvE. We see a clear example of this by looking at GW2’s PvE content. The Bosses are very predictable, and the Mob AI is easy to exploit, which is the reason the glass cannon Zerker has been the PvE meta all along. GW2 Pretty much proves my point. ???

If that is all true, then why wouldn’t you want to go play those? Rift is only 4 years old, this is coming up on 3? It’s a very good game, I played for about 10 months or so. Even FFXIV bent to the will of the military industrial “we must have jobs!” crowd that were irritated with the clkitten, mix-n-match, UO-style ‘throw together and wear whatever you want’ types, and the managed to move that away from a more organic game to a rigid one in ARR.

Isn’t that the whole reason there are lots of different games, so everyone can find one that fits their play style the closest?

I’m assuming this is all just a rhetorical discussion of whether a trinity leads to more challenging AI, and not a literal call to change the game, even if it alienates myself and many other people that have grown to love a trinity-less type game? Especially when there are AAA titles that have that already which are very good games and not very old? I even think SWTOR fits that bill, no?

There’s always PvP? See how challenging that AI is? Fairly unpredictable?

I feel like it would definitely bring in a lot more people, but it would also alienate a lot of players who enjoy the dps-fest.

Don’t forget a lot of MMO’s are going in the direction of totally removing support aspects from games. more and more mmo’s are being released without healer classes or tanks, just different types of dps (magic, ranged, melee).

As someone who grew up with the trinity, I really, really hate this change in the formula, but the new generation are lazy and entitled, everyone wants to see big numbers fly so that’s what’s happening

Knighthonor.4061:

well going off the statements some of you all made in this thread, some of you have said that GW2 Dungeon mob AI gets exploited all the time. But i have never seen that degree of AI explotation in a Trinity game like WoW or Rift… so it would seem that the Trinity AI although not Terminator smart, is still superior to the the Non-Trinity Mob AI found in GW2.

Are you familiar with the concept of a sacrifice pull?

If you aren’t, it’s a strategy sometimes seen in Trinity games where a tank goes in, aggroes everything in the path of wherever the group wants to go, then kites those mobs away while the rest of the group slips past and reaches the next safe area, thereby skipping a whole bunch of trash.

In the case of Rift specifically, one of the most basic tactics taught to players running Riftstalker tank builds involves getting groups of mobs to stack up by luring them around corners.

Yeah… AI exploitation is far from being uncommon in Trinity MMOs. It’s even easier when you can directly manipulate the numbers it uses.

In fact, you know that the term ‘kite’ is older than GW2, right? And you know how it acquired that meaning in MMO jargon? Yeah, think about that for a minute.

rapthorne.7345:

…but the new generation are lazy and entitled, everyone wants to see big numbers fly so that’s what’s happening

You just set up a giant strawman in here and fought that instead of addressing anything anyone’s actually said on the subject, yet it’s the “new generation” who are “lazy and entitled”.

Seriously?

Another thought just occurred to me as I was reading some of the other responses to this thread: imagine the forum QQ that would spawn overnight as people demanded that healers and tanks get priority on full maps (ie at Teq time.)

“We keep failing because too many DPS and not enough tanks or heals can get on the map. There should be priority queuing for these needed roles for events. QQ.”

Knighthonor.4061:

Jerus.4350:

Knighthonor.4061:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The absence of the traditional trinity doesn’t limit GW2 any more than the inclusion of that trinity limits WoW and other games. Content that has to be designed around the traditional trinity means working out ways to avoid ‘cheese’ tanking, cheese healing, and offer enough health that stuff can’t die quickly. In contrast, GW2 allows the potential for all sorts of teams to play, without depending on the traditional roles.

The issues with GW2’s dungeons is that players quickly figured out how to beat the AI easily, so all of the speedy runs boil down to figuring out how to stack might, vulnerability, and thus make most foe mechanics moot. ANet has started to address this in open world content, but largely has left dungeons and fractals untouched.

Thus, the real issue isn’t the trinity (or lack thereof). It’s that players are evolving faster than ANet is changing the content.

(Incidentally: DPs/Control/Support is present in the speed-clearing, although somewhat dull. Support is primarily might stacking + stealthing through disliked-mechanics. Control is primarily about using LoS to draw foes into a corner and sometimes about pulling them; only occasionally do people use skills to pull beyond that first aggro. And, of course, DPS is king, as it is in all games ultimately.)

Well if thats the case, than which AI is less dumb, the Trinity AI or the Non-Trinity AI?

Considering the tricks I used to do in my old trinity games, I’d say the Non-Trinity, though it has nothing to do with trinity/no trinity but simply the games design quality.

well going off the statements some of you all made in this thread, some of you have said that GW2 Dungeon mob AI gets exploited all the time. But i have never seen that degree of AI explotation in a Trinity game like WoW or Rift… so it would seem that the Trinity AI although not Terminator smart, is still superior to the the Non-Trinity Mob AI found in GW2.

You know LoS pulling? Yeah we were doing it in ‘99 in EQ. Gather things up, hide behind a corner to prevent casters from falling behind, also getting them in a blob to be either AE’d down, stunlocked, or AE mezzed.

We actually took that kind of cleave/blob killing to a whole new level. We did variations of AE kiting, some involved killing 100s of things at once… solo! In Kunark we did this in a top tier zone with a group permanently locking down 100+ creatures with stuns while others AE’d damage.

Likewise, newer game, DCUO we LOS pulled as well.

With tanks we also had a lot of positioning tricks. Many enemies would want to move away or would get pushed away, so we shoved them in corners. If the tank was shrunk or small enough he could be still infront of the boss but also in the corner keeping the boss faced away from us, immobile, and just generally fully controlled and tamed.

DCUO we had collision with enemies, this allowed us to body block enemies attacks. We’d have tanks prevent the deadly attacks from even happening which is something the devs admitted they did not anticipate and was not designed to be done.

Again EQ way way way back, original Feign Death. It was never meant to be a pulling tool, however people learned quickly that it could be used as one, you’d simply agro fake death and hope the enemies split apart and could be pulled separately exploiting the randomness of their wait to walk back. Initially called an exploit later given the OK, and that is pretty much the reason “pulling” isn’t a thing in any new MMO the way it was in EQ, it made things too easy. This being relevant because it also lead to the change in the way mobs agro. Instead of following you anywhere they have relatively short tether radii, this prevents the exploitation of pulling things into better locations that may be quite a distance away, something that allowed us to pull and kill dungeon bosses at the entrance back in EQ, with a good puller we could complete dungeons in a couple minutes with the puller doing the majority of the work.

Another old EQ one was healing through walls. Many attacks would not hit you behind a wall, but heals didn’t need LoS, so… we’d put healers behind a wall, they’d heal the tank from complete safety… neat huh?

So, yeah, naw these kinds of AI manipulation and positioning tricks go all the way back to original games and still exist in newer ones. The trinity has nothing to do with their use, it’s simply that games allow the player to be smarter than the game.

Panites.6798:

Holy trinity just wouldn’t work in GW2, and people don’t want it to work. For holy trinity you NEED a dungeon gear grind and time sink. GW2 has none of that and i’m glad, ive spent too many hours grinding for some kittenty gear just so i can then grind for better gear to do the next dungeon. Its stupidly boring and only certain people who have been forced into thinking this is end game enjoy it.

End game is the worst idea developers have put into any MMO players minds. It refers to running dungeons/raids hundreds of times to get gear that everyone else is also mindlessly grinding for. Its just boring and the only way to keep you in the game is because it is so called ‘End Game’ that everyone else is brain washed into thinking that its cool.

Holy trinity is boring and would make this game worse, would lose half the mechanics that make it NOT a holy trinity and then just a regular grind kittenty game.

PvE is easy in any game after you run it 3+ times.

Not true at all. The trinity means dedicated healers tanks and DPS gear grinding for top level stats is raiding which I think you’re referring to inadvertently. Btw we already have that it’s called ascended.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Not true at all. The trinity means dedicated healers tanks and DPS gear grinding for top level stats is raiding which I think you’re referring to inadvertently. Btw we already have that it’s called ascended.

That should be “designated healers, tanks, and DPS”. Very very few games expect players to be dedicated to their assigned party roles — lots of ‘DPS’ classes are support, and most games require and expect healers to do DPS as well — sometimes, your healer can even be the best DPS you have — e.g., there is only one class in FFXIV with better AoE DPS than the white mage.

abbetd.5912:

Another thought just occurred to me as I was reading some of the other responses to this thread: imagine the forum QQ that would spawn overnight as people demanded that healers and tanks get priority on full maps (ie at Teq time.)

“We keep failing because too many DPS and not enough tanks or heals can get on the map. There should be priority queuing for these needed roles for events. QQ.”

I remember the last time I played WoW, which was about a 10 month stretch a year into WotLK (which was a really good time; not what this is about) and the first two characters my friend’s helped me bring up were my Pally (they didn’t have a reliable tank in their little guild, or no one else would do it) and my Priest (which, they also kinda wanted because all they wanted to do was DPS and see how big their… numbers were).

Never much of a dungeon person (in any game), but eventually got really comfortable in those, uh, can’t even remember what they were called…one was like a harder Frost run or something and there were lesser runs? I got pretty good with my Tank and Healer with my friends to the point where I got comfortable queueing up alone. Always zipped right in.

Probably end up with a queue like that for dungeons. They’d probably have to yank something like Teq out of an open world setting to let raids of people queue for them. And then it would just be…WoW. Which…we have already.

The third I brought up was a Druid which I went DPS with (though had a healer spec too, but it wasn’t as good as my Priest). Went to queue one day…holy smokes. Zipping right in – not so much.