Guild Wars 2

And please, don’t give us a convoluted blog post that goes on about how much you care for the community and the welfare of your beloved game, without actually addressing the very real concerns we exposed here in your forums.

I think it’s safe to say that a reasonably sized chunk of your playerbase is unhappy with the changes.

Give us some REAL, CLEAR ANSWERS, please.

Tell us if this is what we should expect in the future. Have a shred of decency and inform the ones that should be sincerely thinking about leaving. If we are indeed such a small segment of your customers then it shouldn’t really affect you (especially considering we already paid for the game and there is no monthly fee).

I’m begging you, ANet.

They NEED to make a statement, why exactly? They’ve already made a statement — both in what you call a “convoluted” blog post, and here in the forums.

I assume you’re talking about the ascended tier and the fear of them adding more in the future. It’s a baseless fear, as they have already made “Legendaries” which are an insanely long grind for most players and laid out in the game as the ultimate achievement. They’re not going to be able to make gear which has higher stats and is perceived as a better reward than those items, so they are naturally capped in how much they can add.

Ascended gear is really much like resistance gear in other MMOs anyway — a set of gear which you accumulate to counter a specific mechanic.

I think the problem is that their ‘manifesto’ is purposefully vague, and the vast majority of the consumers interpreted that as they liked.

Now what response would really placate the community?
“we’re sorry but the changes are final”?
“we’re sorry and will throw away all the content in our large content patch”?
“Turns out our manifesto is not profitable, sry”?

A lot of people are really being quite selfish here, and they want Anet to just fold and do what they want and disregard anyone who likes the changes but doesn’t post about it on the forums (the silent majority)

Eibl.8592:

I think the problem is that their ‘manifesto’ is purposefully vague, and the vast majority of the consumers interpreted that as they liked.

Now what response would really placate the community?
“we’re sorry but the changes are final”?
“we’re sorry and will throw away all the content in our large content patch”?
“Turns out our manifesto is not profitable, sry”?

A lot of people are really being quite selfish here, and they want Anet to just fold and do what they want and disregard anyone who likes the changes but doesn’t post about it on the forums (the silent majority)

Precisely. People misinterpeet or overinterpret and instantly begin the crusade against the evil, horrible Anet who stole the sunshine and happiness out of their lives.

Eibl.8592:

I think the problem is that their ‘manifesto’ is purposefully vague, and the vast majority of the consumers interpreted that as they liked.

I think it’s quite clear in many regards. They sold me this game based on the promise that gear treadmills did not exist.

This is now utterly false.

Vermillion Hawk.9037:

Precisely. People misinterpeet or overinterpret and instantly begin the crusade against the evil, horrible Anet who stole the sunshine and happiness out of their lives.

Explain how it could be misinterpreted or your argument is void.

I’m still not understanding how one extra tier between exotic and legendary constitutes a gear treadmill.

Vermillion Hawk.9037:

I’m still not understanding how one extra tier between exotic and legendary constitutes a gear treadmill.

Pretty extreme grinding is required for the first piece of ascended gear and its infusion, and we were told there will be a full set of ascended gear down the line.

The real question is: does it stop here, or is this the new philosophy of endgame? After we’re decked out in ascendant gear, will they then present us with a new tier of gear and update the legendaries again to justify “bridging the gap”?

Hawken.7932:

They NEED to make a statement, why exactly? They’ve already made a statement — both in what you call a “convoluted” blog post, and here in the forums.

I assume you’re talking about the ascended tier and the fear of them adding more in the future. It’s a baseless fear, as they have already made “Legendaries” which are an insanely long grind for most players and laid out in the game as the ultimate achievement. They’re not going to be able to make gear which has higher stats and is perceived as a better reward than those items, so they are naturally capped in how much they can add.

Ascended gear is really much like resistance gear in other MMOs anyway — a set of gear which you accumulate to counter a specific mechanic.

Exept having a Legendary didn’t give you any sort of advantage besides looking awesome.

Ascended gear though, has better stats, and the fact that resistance gear exists in other MMO’s gives it even more reason to not go down that road. So if you want to get the absolute best out of dungeons for example, you NEED to have ascended gear, no way around it. It’s just sad to see that Anet is leaving what everyone loved about GW1 behind, and follows up with the hundreds of hours of boring grind for the best gear in the game, wich COMPLETELY contradicts their initial statements before the release of the game.

That’s the thing: it’s a question. We don’t know whether or not this sets a precedent for the future of development.

Trust is reciprocal. I trust that Anet won’t utterly transform the game into the opposite of what is set out to be. On the other hand, I also trust that the changes they do make are in the best interest of the game itself. I’m not so pretentious as some to believe they can just accept all the suggestions and ideas from individual players and incorporate them into a dream game.

Vermillion Hawk.9037:

We don’t know-

Which is why they need to make a statement…

Vermillion Hawk.9037:

I’m still not understanding how one extra tier between exotic and legendary constitutes a gear treadmill.

Before Ascended gear, having full Exotic gear meant that you were at 100% of the game’s maximum power.

After Ascended gear, you are at less than 100% of the game’s maximum power.

To get back to exactly where you started (100%), you have to ‘run’ (grind) until you get the new gear.

That’s why it’s a treadmill. You have to run forward just to get back to where you started.

They don’t need to make it. YOU feel they need to make it. They can just do whatever the kitten they want and they don’t need to say anything about it. $60 is pretty cheap for a leash to a company.

Furthermore you don’t just have to grind for the new ascended gear, but also for the new exotic skins as they are Drops and not buyable for tokens.

Scyte.2801:

Ascended gear though, has better stats, and the fact that resistance gear exists in other MMO’s gives it even more reason to not go down that road. So if you want to get the absolute best out of dungeons for example, you NEED to have ascended gear, no way around it. It’s just sad to see that Anet is leaving what everyone loved about GW1 behind, and follows up with the hundreds of hours of boring grind for the best gear in the game, wich COMPLETELY contradicts their initial statements before the release of the game.

If Anet was bound to all of the statements they made pre-release, they would never be able to organically evolve the design over time. I’m sorry, but that’s just not now MMOs work. The best possible situation for players is that the company behind the MMO takes data constantly and adapts the design over time to give us all new goals to strive for, new rewards to accumulate, new content to explore, etc.

Don’t get your hopes up for an answer…We’re talking about a company here, that kept thousands of its player base sat twiddling our thumbs at our computers for one and a half HOURS last night waiting for the WWW reset.

With the server queues minutes after reset, that meant no could take a bathroom break, go get a drink or anything for that time……The delay was one thing, but not having the courtesy to make a 2 minute post on the forum, letting peeps know the deal was beyond contempt.

Can’t say i can remember the last time any company ****** me over like that, i really can’t

Vermillion Hawk.9037:

They don’t need to make it. YOU feel they need to make it. They can just do whatever the kitten they want and they don’t need to say anything about it. $60 is pretty cheap for a leash to a company.

Yes, I as a customer feel they have broken the promise they made me and to keep ME, they need to make a statement.

Your implication is they don’t give a flying kitten. Which may very well be true, but it just proves my point.

Incidentally, if you aren’t attached to your 60€ feel free to paypal me.

Crater.1625:

Vermillion Hawk.9037:

I’m still not understanding how one extra tier between exotic and legendary constitutes a gear treadmill.

Before Ascended gear, having full Exotic gear meant that you were at 100% of the game’s maximum power.

After Ascended gear, you are at less than 100% of the game’s maximum power.

To get back to exactly where you started (100%), you have to ‘run’ (grind) until you get the new gear.

That’s why it’s a treadmill. You have to run forward just to get back to where you started.

Previous content is not adjusted for this though. You can still complete previous content with exotic gear, and I’m sure you can complete future content with exotic gear – you just need ascended gear to do Fractals of the Mists. You’re not running to get back to where you started. You are given the option of diverting from your path in order to complete extra, additional content.

Space Cow.2431:

Vermillion Hawk.9037:

They don’t need to make it. YOU feel they need to make it. They can just do whatever the kitten they want and they don’t need to say anything about it. $60 is pretty cheap for a leash to a company.

Yes, I as a customer feel they have broken the promise they made me and to keep ME, they need to make a statement.

Your implication is they don’t give a flying kitten. Which may very well be true, but it just proves my point.

Incidentally, if you aren’t attached to your 60€ feel free to paypal me.

My implication is that they shouldn’t give a flying kitten.

Eibl.8592:

(the silent majority)

a bit of laugh in the night, thank you.

Hawken.7932:

They NEED to make a statement, why exactly? They’ve already made a statement — both in what you call a “convoluted” blog post, and here in the forums.

I assume you’re talking about the ascended tier and the fear of them adding more in the future. It’s a baseless fear, as they have already made “Legendaries” which are an insanely long grind for most players and laid out in the game as the ultimate achievement. They’re not going to be able to make gear which has higher stats and is perceived as a better reward than those items, so they are naturally capped in how much they can add.

Ascended gear is really much like resistance gear in other MMOs anyway — a set of gear which you accumulate to counter a specific mechanic.

Until they have legendary items for every gear slot, there is no cap. And if your “cap” is getting 20 legendary items (many, many more if you want to do other characters/builds) then I don’t know what to say.

Ascended gear (with infusions) will be as strong as exotic gear tier is. It isn’t just about fighting agony.

All new content will be designed with the maximum player power in mind.

Old content will not actually nullify the higher stats that players gain from Ascended gear.

To continue playing the game, I am forced to run on the treadmill to get back to where I started, relative to the game in the case of new content, and relative to other players in the case of old content.

It’s a treadmill, definitionally.

You should always assume that silence means the worst. In this case, we will continue to see new tiers of gear/infusions.

Although I myself have decided not to play anymore as grind is just not my cup of tea in this or any other game, I think it’s important to realise that Anet may not be responsible here.

They themselves may be in complete agreement with the criticisms of the player base for all we know, but they as a company are beholden to their sponsors NCSoft.

We as players are not privvy to the contractual obligations between NCSoft and Anet. They could have informed us of what’s going on as much as they are allowed within legal agreements.

What we do know is that many players were leaving early on after they thought they could not lobby Anet to emulate their favorite vertical progression game and that a decision was made to try to chase after those lost customers. Was the decision Anet or NCSoft? We simply do not know.

Whether or not the decision to try to appeal to those customers in order to bring them back is met with success remains to be seen. Chasing the slice of Blizzard’s pie has been disasterous for many other titles, but NCSoft/Anet obviously believe that they can succeed where other companies have failed.

Ultimately if a player feels betrayed the only way to lobby them is to write a polite letter to both Anet and NCSoft. Let them know that while you still enjoy the product you will be witholding the money you would have spent at the store until such time that they return to their original design philosophy and intent. Companies respond to ‘the bottom line’ and are responsible to their shareholders.

If enough people playing the game happen to agree with you then it becomes more costly for shareholders to abandon the manifesto than to adhere to it.

Hawken.7932:

If Anet was bound to all of the statements they made pre-release, they would never be able to organically evolve the design over time. I’m sorry, but that’s just not now MMOs work. The best possible situation for players is that the company behind the MMO takes data constantly and adapts the design over time to give us all new goals to strive for, new rewards to accumulate, new content to explore, etc.

This is partically true, however, if you have played GW1, you would know that the lack of a gear grind is part of what made the game so succesfull, and kept people interrested in the game for years. In my case, I have played it for almost 10k hours over a 6 year period.

If they would have stayed with their initial goal, to create a full MMO version of a game where grinding is optional even if you want to get the best gear in the game, this would have raised a lot less complaints and down the long road people will still be playing this game.

What this game needs is more competitive/high end PvE (For example, the elite area’s in GW1), and less gear grinds. People will keep playing a game if the content is enjoyable to a point where you can keep doing it forever, and see progression all along. You don’t need a gear treadmill for that.

Eibl.8592:

A lot of people are really being quite selfish here, and they want Anet to just fold and do what they want and disregard anyone who likes the changes but doesn’t post about it on the forums (the silent majority)

Oh, yes? And how do you KNOW that the silent majority are in favour of the changes? Eh? There’s a 10,000 post thread about the changes (Me? I’m not even certain that’s what the OP is on about. He could be talking about botting or the current “special” event.), and the brief glance that I took at it saw not one; not a SINGLE; positive comment about it. You’d have thought someone would have spoken up in favour in the first page or so.

As to “silence”, in my long experience, the majority are silent for many reasons. But their silence never defines which side of the fence they are on. Never. You would do well to remember that.

Scyte.2801:

Hawken.7932:

If Anet was bound to all of the statements they made pre-release, they would never be able to organically evolve the design over time. I’m sorry, but that’s just not now MMOs work. The best possible situation for players is that the company behind the MMO takes data constantly and adapts the design over time to give us all new goals to strive for, new rewards to accumulate, new content to explore, etc.

This is partically true, however, if you have played GW1, you would know that the lack of a gear grind is part of what made the game so succesfull, and kept people interrested in the game for years. In my case, I have played it for almost 10k hours over a 6 year period.

If they would have stayed with their initial goal, to create a full MMO version of a game where grinding is optional even if you want to get the best gear in the game, this would have raised a lot less complaints and down the long road people will still be playing this game.

What this game needs is more competitive/high end PvE (For example, the elite area’s in GW1), and less gear grinds. People will keep playing a game if the content is enjoyable to a point where you can keep doing it forever, and see progression all along. You don’t need a gear treadmill for that.

Can i cry?
Yes we need a statement, but no a PR crap! or something where they can avoid things, like in the last time.

We need a statement about:

-Vertical progression (reverting of ascended stats, or new tiers after ascended)
-Debugging and balance.

And we need it now!(or in a really short amount of time).
I think as customers, we waited too much for a clear reply. i want to know if a can continue to play, and enjoy the content they promise us, or i have just to forget the old idea of GW2 and go somewhere else.

Eibl.8592:

I think the problem is that their ‘manifesto’ is purposefully vague, and the vast majority of the consumers interpreted that as they liked.

It isn’t vague at all. The game was sold as no grind for max stat gear. I think we can say you need at least 20 hours of efficient Fractals running before you can get 1 of the 20 or so items a build will use regularly. (Your first items won’t come that quickly) A reasonable person will admit that this is to a level that will certainly be considered a grind.

Eibl.8592:

A lot of people are really being quite selfish here, and they want Anet to just fold and do what they want and disregard anyone who likes the changes but doesn’t post about it on the forums (the silent majority)

Honestly, I would think that the silent majority don’t give a care about Ascended gear one way or the other. They aren’t calling for it, they aren’t going to grind for it, they won’t obtain it, and they won’t be around long enough to see it’s impact. The silent majority just isn’t invested in the future of one single game.

Fortuna.7259:

Ascended gear (with infusions) will be as strong as exotic gear tier is

Sorry, but you got it wrong. Asc gear will be stronger. There are even some percentages on the forums how much stronger they will be, but I won’t pick any of them as I’m not sure which one is correct.

A statement on what, you know 90% or more of the game population doesn’t even use the forums? the biggest thread we have has 100k views and the game sold 2mil+

Statement on what, and who is going to read it, the vocal minority right.

Crater.1625:

All new content will be designed with the maximum player power in mind.

Old content will not actually nullify the higher stats that players gain from Ascended gear.

To continue playing the game, I am forced to run on the treadmill to get back to where I started, relative to the game in the case of new content, and relative to other players in the case of old content.

It’s a treadmill, definitionally.

You seem to misunderstand treadmills, see on a treadmill you don’t Acctually go anywhere like new dungeons or new content. It’s not that I disagree but I don’t think “vertical progression” and “gear treadmill” are synonymous.

They aren’t telling us how many tiers they plan. they won’t tell us when this new tier will be available in wvwvw. they won’t explain how legendaries are going to be achievable beyond the weapons. yes, they need to come clean and tell the truth vs. being evasive. this borders on malfeasance.

You have all got the moneys worth, you are not entitled, sorry but money>your concerns.

Ironangel.1548:

You have all got the moneys worth, you are not entitled, sorry but money>your concerns.

Thanks for telling me what $60 is worth to me. A bit presumptive. They in turn aren’t entitled to any more of my money or recommendations.

Eibl.8592:

You seem to misunderstand treadmills, see on a treadmill you don’t Acctually go anywhere like new dungeons or new content. It’s not that I disagree but I don’t think “vertical progression” and “gear treadmill” are synonymous.

No, they are synonymous (at least in the case where they are being added to the existing top level of a game).

New content and new dungeons do not necessitate stronger gear. We know that they don’t, because it’s entirely possible to play through many levels of Fractals of the Mist without upgrading gear, along with all the other content included in this update – not to mention Guild Wars 1, which never added gear that was stronger than that at release, and managed to maintain a player base for years after new content stopped being produced (Eye of the North having been released in 2007, minor quest updates notwithstanding).

The highest levels that can be completed in FotM are going to be the ones that eventually just overcome the performance of the strongest equipment in the game. The difficulty of those higher levels is going to be identical regardless of whether the maximum gear is Exotic or Ascended, because the nature of the content is to scale up to whatever the maximum power level is.

There is no progression gained from having the stronger gear – at best, you could argue that it will allow for several more intermediate repetitions of the same content below the maximum difficulty (the maximum being identical in either case). And yet to reach that maximum, post-Ascended gear, requires spending time grinding out Ascended gear, just to reach the exact same end point that you would have reached anyway had Exotic remained the top-level gear.

It’s a treadmill, plain and simple.

Eibl.8592:

Crater.1625:

All new content will be designed with the maximum player power in mind.

Old content will not actually nullify the higher stats that players gain from Ascended gear.

To continue playing the game, I am forced to run on the treadmill to get back to where I started, relative to the game in the case of new content, and relative to other players in the case of old content.

It’s a treadmill, definitionally.

You seem to misunderstand treadmills, see on a treadmill you don’t Acctually go anywhere like new dungeons or new content. It’s not that I disagree but I don’t think “vertical progression” and “gear treadmill” are synonymous.

No they are not synonymous, but they are almost always together as you rarely see vertical progression done in any other way. Also it really doesn’t matter if it is new or old content. Where you get it is irrelevant. So while they might not be synonymous they might as well be for all intend of purpose.

Also why this is a gear treadmill. All future content will be made with this gear in mind, so without it you are at a disadvantage. Similar as being in masterwork or rare gear in orr over exotic. People will need this gear to remain competitive in whatever form they compete in.

Hawken.7932:

I assume you’re talking about the ascended tier and the fear of them adding more in the future. It’s a baseless fear, as they have already made “Legendaries” which are an insanely long grind for most players and laid out in the game as the ultimate achievement. They’re not going to be able to make gear which has higher stats and is perceived as a better reward than those items, so they are naturally capped in how much they can add.

Ascended gear is really much like resistance gear in other MMOs anyway — a set of gear which you accumulate to counter a specific mechanic.

Until they added Ascended gear, Legendaries had the exact same stats as Exotics. Now they’ll be boosted. They’ve said Legendaries will always be top tier — but not that Ascended will always be top tier. They’ll just adjust Legendaries upwards after they release the next tier of gear.

Ascended is nothing like resistance gear in other MMOs, it has higher total stats than an Exotic WITH an upgrade slotted, AND they have their own unique upgrade slot.

Eibl.8592:

Crater.1625:

All new content will be designed with the maximum player power in mind.

Old content will not actually nullify the higher stats that players gain from Ascended gear.

To continue playing the game, I am forced to run on the treadmill to get back to where I started, relative to the game in the case of new content, and relative to other players in the case of old content.

It’s a treadmill, definitionally.

You seem to misunderstand treadmills, see on a treadmill you don’t Acctually go anywhere like new dungeons or new content. It’s not that I disagree but I don’t think “vertical progression” and “gear treadmill” are synonymous.

You’re being intentionally dense. A gear treadmill is simply describing a type of gameplay common in MMOs — not the only way to do things — in which new gear that outclasses existing gear is repeatedly added with a variable interval between additions.

It’s a treadmill because you hop on, you get your gear, and you KEEP GETTING GEAR FOREVER. That is the game. The entire game is just a quest for gear with bigger numbers. There is no end. The entire game is nothing but “keep getting better gear” — but of course, that also means the bad guys keep pace with you. You never actually progress, because the game progresses with you — the only thing that changes are the magnitude of the numbers you see when you open your character sheet, but here’s the thing.
If you’ve got 10 bucks, and can buy a sandwich with it, you have one sandwich worth of money.
If you’ve got 10,000,000 bucks, and can buy a sandwich with it, you have one sandwich worth of money.

10,000,000 is a lot larger than 10, but if by the time you reach 10mil everything else has as well.. well, you made no progress at all. You simply stayed in place.

Just like if you were on a treadmill.

Ascended gear is the beginning of a gear treadmill.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerdooley/2012/09/18/complaints/2/

From the article: “It’s much more profitable to keep an existing customer than go looking for a new one.” This remains wise advice, but is often widely ignored in practice. Companies that fail to respond to complaints in a timely manner risk losing the same customers they spent large sums acquiring in the first place. The data shows that even when a problem is no longer fixable, a simple apology can still turn a negative attitude into a positive one.

I suppose if you spend all your time reading fantasy fiction and dungeon guides things like this pass you by.

I don’t think you need them to make a statement. It’s pretty clear they don’t want you (or me for that matter) as their customer.

Apparently, the whole SWG NGE debacle still wasn’t enough to teach future companies that you don’t kill off your existing playerbase for the mystical amount subscribers you imagine your game should have.

Well, there is a thing that my old work tough me.

An happy customer can get to you 1 or 2 new customers… and if that customers are happy, they get to you other costumers.. its not a fast thing it a little cycle, it take time and its quite rewarding.

But if you delude a customer, it will destroy you reputation whit all the ppl he know, if you delude a lot of customers, your future business is ruined.