Guild Wars 2

Your theory is that people who love Champ Zergs hate Raids. That’s comparing two things that don’t necessarily have anything to do with each other, if you know what I mean. As it’s pretty much generalized your question can’t be answered as such.

Imo though the majority of player’s don’t like Champ Zergs just as the majority doesn’t like Raids.

I for example don’t really do the Champ Zerg, it bores me after 30 Minutes. Tried it out 3,4 times in Frostforge. Though the money gained wasn’t bad and the quantity of drops including the loot out of Gold Boxes/Bags etc. was nice, I still felt like I was waisting my time after a while due to having no fun. I’ll still be doing it now and then if I happen to stumble apon a Zerg and ofc the Temples and World-Bosses (On a side note I think the rewards from killing a Champ should be reduced to once an hour or so – imagine the complaints )

I’d like an occasional Raid on a high level now and then, even for some meaningless reward. Just for the challenge. But not too often, as said above the preconditions are usually more exhausting than the actual raid. A guild race or so would be the kind of raid I’d like. After years of MMOs killing mobs isn’t so spectacular anymore.

To sum it up, I don’t really care much for either Champ Zergs nor Raids if they were implemented. I also don’t care much for dungeons neither, though that may change soon. I think most people think the same as I do. But like your OP it’s a subjective statement.

“I see many players joining and asking about the Champion Zerg train, to get their gear grind on.

Yet pre-release you all were saying how much you hated Raid Dungeons for the same reason."

The first difference is that the champion train is open world, open access, with people free to come and go as they like. No commitment needed. Very little organization. Nobody excluded. This immediately strikes off many of the problems of raids.

Next consider that the champ trains are effectively raid sized collections of players tackling group content. They only get group quality rewards for each champ but they kill so quickly it becomes more rewarding than other content. This clearly isn’t the intent of the design and it can’t last forever in its current form.

Yaki.9563:

Przemek.6835:

Dante.1508:

Because Zergs are easy in easy out type game play, you join when you want to get your loot (carrots) then leave when you feel like it, you don’t affect anyone else.

Raids require coordination, setting up, getting everyone online at the right times etc and can be huge hassles and commitments, not to mention massive dramas..

That’s my take on why the latter doesn’t work at least in GW2.

Lies. Look at WoW LFR system. Join, faceroll easy mode content, get loot.

You can join LFR for 5 mins and get loot? Including the VP which is the grind currency of WoW? Also in LFR you get to enjoy the pleasure of face-numbing trash before each boss. The joys!

Open world raids have been the only kind of raiding that has been any good, ever (ok I’ll admit I had a blast doing Karazhan 10-man, but that’s closer to a 5-man than the typical raiding monstrosity). The open world feels “real”. Instances feel fake. If GW2 was based around raiding for end-game loot I would not be playing.

A dragon that stands still in one place waiting for your zerg to auto attack spam him to death feels real for you? Oh boy…

Grinding tokens in WoW? You will do the raid few times for boss drops and by that time you will most likely have enough tokens for whatever you want.

I also like how you deleted the most important part of my post and referred only to the first sentence.

Cool.

Oh almost forgot the “face numbing thrash”. The thrash is just as hard as your GW2 BOSSES XD. I remember raiding in tbc and wotlk, by the time everyone was ready for 1st boss there were always few that cleared thrash so the rest doesn’t have to waste time

Personally, I do zerg champ trains because I can leave any time. If I’m in a dungeon, people are counting on me to be there to completion, and that is not always possible. I can only do a dungeon when I KNOW I can set “x” amount of time aside, plus wear my headphones for TS, etc.

Most people seem to be under the impression that Raiding means Gear Progression. There is no reason at all why it needs to. Why not have technically challenging raid difficulty bosses who drop cosmetic or otherwise superficial things, rather than creating new tiers of gear progression?

Some people would really like a greater challenge. Not everyone, certainly, but I think quite a lot of people. It would really add a new level of depth to GW2 to have large group bosses that offer a very significant challenge to players.

I do champ zergs to do my dailies…

I think another reason from Arena.net’s perspective to avoid raid instances is for the same reason World of Warcraft implemented several difficulties to their raid content from “heroic” all the way down to “press [x] for loot.”

Raids instances traditionally are content that a VERY small portion of your audience will ever see in its entirety. For example; at the time of Burning Crusade, for example, something around less than 0.1% of active accounts ever saw M’uru in the Sunwell Plateau, for example. Even less saw Kil’Jaeden (because M’uru was a guild killer even for heavily invested raid guilds).

That’s not really a very good investment for content from a developer’s standpoint. WoW can do that “simpleton” tier because they really DO have a gear treadmill where people who play the lowest difficulty gets significantly less impressive loot.

As Guild Wars 2 does NOT (at least not yet), they’d face a conundrum: there’d be very little incentive for players to actually attempt the harder levels of difficulty outside of simply wanting the challenge (which as these forums demonstrate is a TERRIBLE motivator), and making the challenge worth it would inherently cut off a vast percentage of the player base from seeing the content they want you to see. Nor can Arena.net simply make the content stupid easy because then you’ll have masses complaining that it’s too easy and there’s no point if ANYONE can do it.

As such, I can see why Arena.net would be reluctant to work with raid instances. They likely don’t see any option that has them coming out ahead.

stemare.2578:

Knighthonor.4061:

stemare.2578:

Often people associate raid concept with gear treadmill of traditional MMOs, that’s where most of hate comes.
Personally I’d love to see introduced some raid content in GW2 as far as it doesn’t turn in a farm to obtain a specific item.

Yet people are farming these champs the same reason as people farmed Raids.

To get loot! Magic Find Magic Find, oh nice I just got thing nice item off that champion.

Oh nice I got something I can salvage for expensive mats.

Its the same thing. both grind for Gear.

Cause of GW2 philosophy, people shouldn’t farm champions for gear. 99% of them already have their exotic armor/trinket/weapon, they should farm to get money and buy cosmetic things (legendaries, specific sins, BLTP items by gem exchange etc.)
That said, with the introduction of ascended weapons (and soon armor) ANet completely broke this game philosophy and many people are farming to obtain the strongest gear possible like any other MMOs. TOO BAD.

So you’re saying the strongest gear in other games are also mostly pointless as well?
Having the right traits and utilities equipped and making use of them at the right time has made a much bigger difference than ascended ever will.

Many players don’t want instanced raids. Open world raids anyone can help out in are ok to them.

I hate raids because they require you to schedule your life around the game.

If a system like WoW’s LFR was added, I would be ok with it. But not if it was implemented in exactly the same way, as WoW penalizes you by giving you worse gear for using that system instead of committing your life to making a schedule for raids.

Akari Storm.6809:

I don’t think players hate Raid dungeons because they are Raids or large groups doing things together. I think many players just don’t like treadmill grinds and that little beast that comes with that, the “Power Creep”.

No it’s because most of them want to be lazy scepter camping guardian and BearLonbow rangers who Point-blank-Shot the vet Subjugator I’m trying to hold the aggro of (which causes the whole kitten event to fail instantly).

They also like to ignore map chat and never have to dodge or use waypoiints once they die. In other words, they’re all the people who WOULDN’T be invited to Raids and would miss out on the next round of SHINIES … SHINIES … …. SHINIES . . . . . . SHINIES

Knighthonor.4061:

I dont understand, how the you all Love Champion Zergs but hate the concept of Raid Dungeons.

Can somebody explain the reasoning behind this?

I see many players joining and asking about the Champion Zerg train, to get their gear grind on.

Yet pre-release you all were saying how much you hated Raid Dungeons for the same reason.

they both consist of large groups of players, tackling a powerful NPC to get some PvE loot rewards or faction grind.

IMO, Raid Dungeons offer a different level of challenges that these open world fights simply cant do.

Why like the Zerg but hate the Raid Dungeons?!

Because of the nature of champion zerging.
Is it giving me loot ? yes.
Does it require preparation? no.
Is it easy and effective? yes.
Is it a challenge ? No. – but guess what – when I’m farming i’m looking for PROFIT not challenge.
Does my success depend on other people ? no. – as long as there’s 6+ players there we’re all good.

To put it simply – because it is a fast, effective farm that requires little to no personal investment of either time or financial in game resources and where your personal success does not hinge on overall group performance.

Do raids have a place in this game ? yes and no.
While group play is fun I kind of like the fact that in GW2 I can be successful on my own – without needing to rely on others.
Will there be difficult content in the future – yes .

You’re comparing the wrong things.
People only zerg champions for the loot. If there was a place in the game that went " press f to gather gold " then all the zerg champ farmers – myself included – would be there.

You can leave whenever you want to, and don’t have to stand around for hours gathering people together and planning before doing it. Totally different things, really.

Knighthonor.4061:

I dont understand, how the you all Love Champion Zergs but hate the concept of Raid Dungeons.

Can somebody explain the reasoning behind this?

I see many players joining and asking about the Champion Zerg train, to get their gear grind on.

Yet pre-release you all were saying how much you hated Raid Dungeons for the same reason.

they both consist of large groups of players, tackling a powerful NPC to get some PvE loot rewards or faction grind.

IMO, Raid Dungeons offer a different level of challenges that these open world fights simply cant do.

Why like the Zerg but hate the Raid Dungeons?!

Since by definition we don’t have raid dungeons in GW2, I can’t even compare the two…

Why groups of up to 25 aren’t in dungeons as raids, I have no idea unless you meant something else altogether?

In my opinion people hate the gear grind that comes with raids.GW2 is the most casual MMO if my eyes.The gear grind was replaced with AP grind,Rank grind,MF grind and Skin grind.

Now lets talk a little about Tequatl.He and his mechanics are a copy past of a Raid boss the only problem is that it is not scaling good enough and has an 80 people requirement.
If it was put in an instance my guild can easy get 30 – 40 people for it.But with that 80 people requirement,Overflows spliting the guild and all that randomness happening in the Open world he is just not worth the Effort.

Fungalfoot.7213:

I hate both. What I want is a living and organic world free of loot pinatas and forced progression. But I guess that isn’t likely to happen at this point.

Truth