Guild Wars 2

Pay particular attention to the Elementalist. God knows why they still have the least health AND armour.

hmmm because they can be very powerful in the right hands?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm because they can be very powerful in the right hands?

No…. they can’t. I made amazing builds for a bunch of classes in WoW, and one of my builds was ranked number one on a build site. Thousands of people used my builds. I come to GW2, and every single Elementalist build I have ever come up with has been nerfed almost instantaneously. I came up with the best glass cannon build I could find, and I still only do 30% of the damage a warrior (with twice my health and armor ) does. I agree. More than just the health needs to be evaluated though. Damage, armor, and health all need to be redone.

I see Eles on the battlefield which can withstand a lot of damage, now you want more HP this would make this class totally overpowered PvP wise.

Galtrix.7369:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm because they can be very powerful in the right hands?

No…. they can’t. I made amazing builds for a bunch of classes in WoW, and one of my builds was ranked number one on a build site. Thousands of people used my builds. I come to GW2, and every single Elementalist build I have ever come up with has been nerfed almost instantaneously. I came up with the best glass cannon build I could find, and I still only do 30% of the damage a warrior (with twice my health and armor ) does. I agree. More than just the health needs to be evaluated though. Damage, armor, and health all need to be redone.

That’s because you can’t go make a sim and copy and paste whatever it poops out to the internet like you could in WoW.

Im talking strictly pve.

I agree with OP. If its true that Anet is balancing all other classes around the Warrior class, then the base health of at least the Ele, thief, and Engi should go up. The guardian, while it has low hp, is fine because their base protection through virtues more than makes up for its low hp base. The other classes I know nothing about as I don’t play them.

Haralin.1473:

I see Eles on the battlefield which can withstand a lot of damage, now you want more HP this would make this class totally overpowered PvP wise.

That a joke? The worst PvP profession would become overpowered with more health?

Galtrix.7369:

I came up with the best glass cannon build I could find, and I still only do 30% of the damage a warrior (with twice my health and armor ) does.

This is just a blatant outright lie, with a percentage taken out of thin air. Here you go, here’s some math for you to check out.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/85568-lh-is-the-new-bearbow-the-real-staff-dps-build-for-manly-men/

Galtrix.7369:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm because they can be very powerful in the right hands?

No…. they can’t. I made amazing builds for a bunch of classes in WoW, and one of my builds was ranked number one on a build site. Thousands of people used my builds. I come to GW2, and every single Elementalist build I have ever come up with has been nerfed almost instantaneously. I came up with the best glass cannon build I could find, and I still only do 30% of the damage a warrior (with twice my health and armor ) does. I agree. More than just the health needs to be evaluated though. Damage, armor, and health all need to be redone.

You are doing something wrong then. And btw, just because you made a good build in another game, don’t make you the Guru on Gw2 Elementalists.

Although I disagree on the 30% damage thing (We can do a lot of damage if builded and handled correctly, more than a Warrior can), but the price for that is that our survivability is basicly zero in PvE and we are a free kill in PvP, which doesn’t apply to a most of other classes. With our mobility and healing abilities nerfed in PvP especially, we are mostly removed from this part of the game, which is sad, really.
We may have the advantage of bigger damage (this unfortunately applies on dumb/AI target only), but the disadvantages of this (zero survival while builded for dmg and the reliability of our spells and the effort needed to perform at least “good”) highly overcomes the single advantage we have.
So basically, most of the other classes specced for damage have at least better survival ability, or better mobility, or both of those…

Galtrix.7369:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm because they can be very powerful in the right hands?

No…. they can’t. I made amazing builds for a bunch of classes in WoW, and one of my builds was ranked number one on a build site. Thousands of people used my builds. I come to GW2, and every single Elementalist build I have ever come up with has been nerfed almost instantaneously. I came up with the best glass cannon build I could find, and I still only do 30% of the damage a warrior (with twice my health and armor ) does. I agree. More than just the health needs to be evaluated though. Damage, armor, and health all need to be redone.

I’m a warrior speced for damage. There are eles out there ( i’ve run dungeons with them) that outdamage me. By a lot.
Eles generally outdamage warriors if played properly.
Making a build does not equal playing the class right. I don’t know what kind of builds you make but if you’re only pushing out 30% of the dps of a warrior with your builds perhaps it’s time to stop theorycrafting.

Eles can be extremely powerful in the right hands but they need more than builds and gear – they need a player that has HIGH skill and good APM. You need to be able to dance around those atunements, to be able to position yourself properly and to do your rotations right.
In the right hands ( and I’ve seen this a lot in PVP ) eles are very devastating – but might feel week to novice players who aren’t experienced and don’t have their reflexes or APM where they need to be.

@Crescendoll – Galtrix tends to get a bit carried away with things – I’m sure he means well but sometimes he gets carried away. Unrelated example :

I got a group together one day for AC when I was level 40ish. Everyone else was level 80. They all said they wanted to kick me, but did nothing about it. Everything went perfectly fine in AC, everything was going smooth and I never died, but everyone else in my party got downed at least twice. 2 minutes later, I get a kick and a nice whisper saying, “Don’t come back until you’re level 80”. I sent them a nice message saying, “L2P”. Needless to say, I added them to my friends list so I could plan revenge one day.

I leveled to 80, got a commander title, world completion, and I made a build that let me farm CoF extremely quickly, so quickly in fact, that I actually had people lining up in a queue to join my party for CoF farm runs. So I’m farming one day, and lo and behold, 2 guys that kicked me from AC showed up begging for a run. I let them in. I whisper the other members of the party explaining what happened to me and I tell them my plan. We get to the final boss, and I vote to kick them both when the boss was at 10% health. I got some pretty mean whispers, but all I said was, “Remember me? Now don’t kick lowbies or they may own your life one day”.

Well let’s take away some of the zerker gear so that ele has the vitality to have the same health, and toughtness to have the same armor as a warrior. Do you think the ele will have anywhere near the DPS in this case?

The high DPS builds for eles are extremely situational. Like enemies against walls with fiery greatsword, autotargetting off, enough survivability to pull off the attacks without dying partway though, having 90% or more health, enemies being burned, allies blasting for might, staying within 600 range, etc.

In most cases the damage isn’t as high as the hype we hear about, that refernce best case scenarios. And still, the survivability is very very poor.

Clark Skinner.4902:

Well let’s take away some of the zerker gear so that ele has the vitality to have the same health, and toughtness to have the same armor as a warrior. Do you think the ele will have anywhere near the DPS in this case?

The high DPS builds for eles are extremely situational. Like enemies against walls with fiery greatsword, autotargetting off, enough survivability to pull off the attacks without dying partway though, having 90% or more health, enemies being burned, allies blasting for might, staying within 600 range, etc.

In most cases the damage isn’t as high as the hype we hear about, that refernce best case scenarios. And still, the survivability is very very poor.

To be honest, survivability is not existant, a mere glance from the enemy will down you when specced purely to damage-dealing as an Elementalist Let’s face the truth

The elementalist has been the dominant profession in PvP for the first 9 months. So, tell me, how could be the low base HP/armor be an issue now, while it has not in the past?

Galtrix.7369:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm because they can be very powerful in the right hands?

No…. they can’t.

Evidently they can because my D/D bunker ele is almost unkillable in PvE.

STRanger.5120:

To be honest, survivability is not existant, a mere glance from the enemy will down you when specced purely to damage-dealing as an Elementalist Let’s face the truth

This can be said for pretty much every profession with perhaps, the exception of Guardians and Warriors. That is why they call them “glass” cannon builds. This is not something exclusive to the elementalist. Perhaps that is the truth you should face.

In PVP Elem are better bunkers than Warriors; if played well.

In PVE, Elems can be near immortals since they have so many escape tricks, very high heals and very good shield abilities.

My ele can outtank a warrior easily! Protection/regeneration spam > high HP/armor

Yes, bringing base HP closer together would allow ANet to create more nuanced encounters and also help better balance damage and healing.

Currently the base HP at level 80 are as follows:

Thief, Guardian and Elementalist: 10.805
Mesmer, Ranger and Engineer: 15.082
Warrior and Necromancer: 18.372

That is a HUGE discrepancy and makes damage and healing impossible to balance.

Elementalists for example heal something like 30% of their HP every time they switch to Water because they are pushed into extremely durable builds. These durable builds are partially due to the synergy between high mitigation, low HP and high heals as healing becomes a lot more effective with low HP. That’s a big part of what makes Guardians and Elementalists so tanky.

Both Elementalists and Guardians would be much better balanced with 20% less healing power and mitigation but 20% more HP.

It also makes designing boss abilities easier and fairer because a hit that could instantly gib a Thief would barely take 50% off of a Warrior.

Imo the base-HP values should be adjusted as follows, with respective balance changes in mind.

Thief, Elementalist and Guardian: Roughly 13.000 HP
Mesmer, Engineer and Ranger: Roughly 15.000 HP (same as now)
Warrior and Necro: Roughly 17.000 HP (slight nerf)

Galtrix.7369:

I came up with the best glass cannon build I could find, and I still only do 30% of the damage a warrior (with twice my health and armor ) does.

All of what you just said there is bullkitten.

First off, it’s been proven like a billion times that the DPS differences between professions aren’t that great. You’re basically claiming that a glass cannon Warrior has thrice the DPS of a glass cannon Ele, which is obviously not the case.

Similarly, at full glass cannon, we’re talking 10,805 hp on Ele and 18,372 hp on Warrior, an increase of 70%, not 100%.

Finally, a glass cannon Ele has 1,836 armor and a glasscannon Warrior has 2,127. That’s an increase of 16%, a farcry from the 100% that you claimed.

If you want to be taken even remotely seriously, stop using such ridiculous hyperbola. If you’re that interested, most people view that Eles are fine in terms of HP because they have access to Regeneration, Protection and permanent Vigor. Warrior has no access to Protection, Regeneration takes 30 points into a traitline and getting permanent Vigor requires a specific weapon (OH Warhorn) plus 20 points into a traitline and extra Boon Duration.

What I would like to see is a good ele and a good warrior fight the same champion solo and see who does it faster. This would show whether one can do more damage or if they do comparable damage. Especially after the last patch.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Galtrix.7369:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm because they can be very powerful in the right hands?

No…. they can’t.

Evidently they can because my D/D bunker ele is almost unkillable in PvE.

You know that the PvE is not PvP, right?

STRanger.5120:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Galtrix.7369:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm because they can be very powerful in the right hands?

No…. they can’t.

Evidently they can because my D/D bunker ele is almost unkillable in PvE.

You know that the PvE is not PvP, right?

You know that build is also almost unkillable in PvP depending on the classes involved, right?

RyuDragnier.9476:

STRanger.5120:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Galtrix.7369:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm because they can be very powerful in the right hands?

No…. they can’t.

Evidently they can because my D/D bunker ele is almost unkillable in PvE.

You know that the PvE is not PvP, right?

You know that build is also almost unkillable in PvP depending on the classes involved, right?

You probably missed our heal + mobility nerf, dude…

Yet more misinformed nonsense from a particular forum user that has no clue on how this game works. Not big surprise

As for revisiting the health values, I think they should simply shorten the gap a little, so they are more free with their balancing of specific traits/skills. As for elementalists, their access to defensive boons is almost at Guardian-level, so I don’t really see the need for an HP increase.

When did that nerf happen? Because I got wrecked by a D/D elementalist in PvP the other day who kept curing my conditions. And then when I switched trait builds to power (still with a full toughness traitline) I still got wrecked by one.

Ironically, Guards, Thieves and Eles who have the lowest health are nigh unkillable if played decently.

I personally counted 48k damage to down an half-decent Ele.
Thieves can spam Sword 2 and keep you at bay forever, they only get in to deal megabursts and get out immediately.
Guards? Don’t even get me started.

If those classes are getting 18k health they would need some ULTRANERFS to the rest of their skillset to be balanced.

RyuDragnier.9476:

When did that nerf happen? Because I got wrecked by a D/D elementalist in PvP the other day who kept curing my conditions. And then when I switched trait builds to power (still with a full toughness traitline) I still got wrecked by one.

That have only one cause, which I’m gonna explain to you.

The only Eles playing the sPvP now are those who are masters of this class, therefore they can wreck you.
If you duel an ele played by a player on the same skill-level as yours is, you’re gonna shred him to pieces, trust me.

But that’s because elementalists are harder to play than say, a Guardian or a Warrior. Buff elementalists because bad ones fail and watch how the good ones dominate everything.

I recall people at launch crying that mesmers and elementalists were extremely weak. Fast forward 2 months, almost no balance changes, SPvP is dominated by elementalists and mesmers because people finally understood how to play them. See how volatile and worthless the perception average joes have of a class is? (and before people jump on me, I don’t know much about elementalists, the only claim I make is to be a relatively impartial observer)

Quite a difficult problem to solve.

Wolfheart.1938:

But that’s because elementalists are harder to play than say, a Guardian or a Warrior. Buff elementalists because bad ones fail and watch how the good ones dominate everything.

I recall people at launch crying that mesmers and elementalists were extremely weak. Fast forward 2 months, almost no balance changes, SPvP is dominated by elementalists and mesmers because people finally understood how to play them.

Quite a difficult problem to solve.

Yeah, that of course is. But nerfing the class to the ground, so uber-skill is needed to defeat decent players of other classes doesn’t seem like the right way to go…
Also, a lot of players thinks that because they play warriors, they can go on full zerker gear and just kill anything, until they meet a skilled bunker Ele.
Which usually cause a posts like you see above….

Red Falcon.8257:

Ironically, Guards, Thieves and Eles who have the lowest health are nigh unkillable if played decently.

I personally counted 48k damage to down an half-decent Ele.
Thieves can spam Sword 2 and keep you at bay forever, they only get in to deal megabursts and get out immediately.
Guards? Don’t even get me started.

If those classes are getting 18k health they would need some ULTRANERFS to the rest of their skillset to be balanced.

Have you ever met a bunker condition/regen warrior?
It’s like “here I am, try to kill me while I’m AFK, I have enough time…”
So that really doesn’t apply only to low HP classes….

I don’t have a problem with the current tier system, but the gaps are too big. The paradigm in the game is that all classes have similar offensive potential but huge distinctions in their defense/utility, which isn’t totally fair since, for example, having Stealth (in most situations) doesn’t compensate for having half the health and much worse armor than a warrior does and only serves to make Thieves much harder to play well than Warriors.

It would be much better if instead of 10k, 15k, 20k at level 80 it was more like 14k, 17k, 20k, or at least 12, 16, 20.

STRanger.5120:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Galtrix.7369:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm because they can be very powerful in the right hands?

No…. they can’t.

Evidently they can because my D/D bunker ele is almost unkillable in PvE.

You know that the PvE is not PvP, right?

You know this isn’t a PvP topic right?
The OP never said this thread was only for either pvp or pve.

coglin.1867:

STRanger.5120:

To be honest, survivability is not existant, a mere glance from the enemy will down you when specced purely to damage-dealing as an Elementalist Let’s face the truth

This can be said for pretty much every profession with perhaps, the exception of Guardians and Warriors. That is why they call them “glass” cannon builds. This is not something exclusive to the elementalist. Perhaps that is the truth you should face.

Hmm, except that applies for more classes than just Warriors and Guardians, What about for example Thieves? Or Necromancers (with the same base HP as Warrior have). Try to get your facts straight, please.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

STRanger.5120:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Galtrix.7369:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm because they can be very powerful in the right hands?

No…. they can’t.

Evidently they can because my D/D bunker ele is almost unkillable in PvE.

You know that the PvE is not PvP, right?

You know this isn’t a PvP topic right?
The OP never said this thread was only for either pvp or pve.

If you read my posts, you should know, that I wasn’t replying to the OPs post. So this “argument” of yours is invalid.
Also, the balance issues are mostly considered between classes, not between a player and mindless AI, because that would be just ridiculous….
Also, any bunker build is nearly unkillable in PvE, so where was your original point?

STRanger.5120:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

STRanger.5120:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Galtrix.7369:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

hmmm because they can be very powerful in the right hands?

No…. they can’t.

Evidently they can because my D/D bunker ele is almost unkillable in PvE.

You know that the PvE is not PvP, right?

You know this isn’t a PvP topic right?
The OP never said this thread was only for either pvp or pve.

If you read my posts, you should know, that I wasn’t replying to the OPs post. So this “argument” of yours is invalid.
Also, the balance issues are mostly considered between classes, not between a player and mindless AI, because that would be just ridiculous….
Also, any bunker build is nearly unkillable in PvE, so where was your original point?

Read again:

Original post:

Pay particular attention to the Elementalist. God knows why they still have the least health AND armour.

First reply to that:

hmmm because they can be very powerful in the right hands?

And the reply to that one:

No…. they can’t. -snip-

The OP never mentioned PvP, someone said eles can be powerfull in the right hands, someone said they can’t, and I said they can. My argument is definitely valid. I never responded to any pvp talk, I defended Deimos’s point, which wasn’t aimed at any game mode in particulair. Unlike you, I was referring to the OP’s post.

STRanger.5120:

Also, any bunker build is nearly unkillable in PvE, so where was your original point?

Ah ok so because any bunker is nearly unkillable in pve that completely nullifies the fact that eles can be hard to kill?

STRanger.5120:

Also, the balance issues are mostly considered between classes, not between a player and mindless AI, because that would be just ridiculous….

Of course because balance is completely irrelevant in pve…