Guild Wars 2

maddoctor.2738:

Lazaar.9123:

Darkness.9732:

Zerker gear should be nerfed heavly. Till zerk gear exist there will be no balance in this game.

And then assassins stat set becomes the new meta. Will you then nerf that? And then Valkyrie becomes the new meta, will you nerf that after also? Nerfing stats does nothing, please actually use logic here.

Ssssh it’s the 11k Eviscerate guy

Nice catch!
:D

Altair.6109:

There is nothing wrong with zerker gears.
As long as they remove the whole stacking thing , this game is fine as it is.

PS: you have no idea how hard mai trin gets when zerker players insist on wearing zerker but can’t dodge any single skill shots.

Had a Nomad Warrior face tank Mai Trinn on FOTM 50 the other day while the rest of the party stood at the edge of melee range and zerked. It was the fastest pug run I’ve ever done. Every lightning hit in full, Mai didn’t teleport, no one went down. Is this the ideal comp for speed runners? No, of course not. But for a pug group I was crying with happiness. I actually thanked the guy for bringing a Nomad set because he saved the rest of us from even having to dodge.

Just design encounters that disable/restrain active defenses. Bit like Blind-spamming dredges doen’t protect you much.

So how about fighting some bosses under a scorching heat that drains endurance? There go your dodges. Unblockable attacks? There goes aegis. Etc.

Basically, if some encounters were designed with more or less unavoidable semi-constant damage, toughness/vitality/healing would be required to go through. Of course, some heavy tuning would be required to make sure that a “zerker dps-race” can’t simply outrun the damage, but you’ve got the idea.

That said, variety is the spice of life. That sort of thing shouldn’t be the rule imho. Ideally, each dungeon would have favoured a few stats over some others. Even better, AC would have provided armour with stats ideal for CM, CM provided good stats for TA, etc.

How about a dungeon where mobs and bosses mitigate 90% of direct damage?

canard: Then you break how the game was designed

Seriously how many more of these threads must we put up with!

TPMN.1483:

canard: Then you break how the game was designed

Seriously how many more of these threads must we put up with!

Canard LOL that’s a good one.

cafard.8953:

Just design encounters that disable/restrain active defenses. Bit like Blind-spamming dredges doen’t protect you much.

So how about fighting some bosses under a scorching heat that drains endurance? There go your dodges. Unblockable attacks? There goes aegis. Etc.

So basically dumb down the game so we rely more on passive defensive and less on active defence?

Berserker is not a build, it is a gear choice. Your build is defined by the traits you choose. The sooner you realize this the sooner you will find that there is no problem.

TPMN.1483:

canard: Then you break how the game was designed

Seriously how many more of these threads must we put up with!

It would occasionally break the recipe used for pretty every encounter until now. I’m afraid i fail to see why that would necessarily be a bad thing. Don’t we have enough dungeons already where we can enjoy the stack-and-dps experience? Fractals are an improvement already but there’s a lot more possibilities to explore i think.

cafard.8953:

TPMN.1483:

canard: Then you break how the game was designed

Seriously how many more of these threads must we put up with!

It would occasionally break the recipe used for pretty every encounter until now. I’m afraid i fail to see why that would necessarily be a bad thing. Don’t we have enough dungeons already where we can enjoy the stack-and-dps experience? Fractals are an improvement already but there’s a lot more possibilities to explore i think.

We don’t care about stacking if you mean in a corner/wall. What it will break is the active defense. That’s THE MAJOR advantage of this game. The fact that you have to understand the encounter and time you skill to survive rather than just sit there and take the hit with cleric gear. THAT’S the point that you idea will break and that would be terribly bad.

The weapons and utility skills you choose determines your playstyle. The traits you choose determines how effective you are at that playstyle.

Your gear determines how much damage you can soak up passive if you are bad at dodging. Your gear determines how hard the attacks you land will hit.

It would be nice if people understood how the character building system in this game works before opening new threads like this.

blakdoxa.7520:

So op realizes that this is a pve problem and that attempting to “revamp” a system that is rooted in the game’s foundation is the same as scraping that game and making a new one.

Its actually possible to fix the condition damage issue for pve without any pvp changes.

As the op said, reducing NPC health while increasing armor would do a lot.

Then increase the stack sizes for bleeding and similar conditions for all ranked (Veteran+) NPCs based on ranks and you have a pve only fix for a pve only problem.

Reducing mob health will only make the Meta groups kill faster which would still keep it more viable than anything else.

Tree.3916:

Reducing mob health will only make the Meta groups kill faster which would still keep it more viable than anything else.

Not if you increase NPC armor to reach the same levels of effective hp.

Thaddeus.4891:

cafard.8953:

TPMN.1483:

canard: Then you break how the game was designed

Seriously how many more of these threads must we put up with!

It would occasionally break the recipe used for pretty every encounter until now. I’m afraid i fail to see why that would necessarily be a bad thing. Don’t we have enough dungeons already where we can enjoy the stack-and-dps experience? Fractals are an improvement already but there’s a lot more possibilities to explore i think.

We don’t care about stacking if you mean in a corner/wall. What it will break is the active defense. That’s THE MAJOR advantage of this game. The fact that you have to understand the encounter and time you skill to survive rather than just sit there and take the hit with cleric gear. THAT’S the point that you idea will break and that would be terribly bad.

Would it be that terrible having to understand a different encounter and time/coordinate your healing skills with your party? At the moment, boss damage is high and rare, giving a large advantage to active defense vs healing. Healing skills and group rotations for them feels completely unexplored. I feel that a couple encounters putting them in the limelight would make a neat change. Same goes for direct damage vs conditions.

And rather than wrecking current content and balance once again with things like the crit damage/Ferocity episode, the way to address variety and stats usefulness should be through new encounters design. The ideas i throw are just that, a few ideas of how some underused stats or skill sets could be given some more use in some specific content. I feel it’d be more interesting than simply having to learn which graphical/audio tell means we have to dodge, like we’ve been doing for the past 3 years.

Arkinos.7245:

Tree.3916:

Reducing mob health will only make the Meta groups kill faster which would still keep it more viable than anything else.

Not if you increase NPC armor to reach the same levels of effective hp.

If NPC armor is raised then meta groups will have slower kill times but nonmeta groups will still have poor dps resulting in even slower kill times. That would not change the meta, only make nonmeta builds that much worse.

Example
Meta group 10kdps
Nonmeta group 5k dps

Lets cut the dps in half to simulate extra armor on mobs shall we ?

Meta group 5kdps
Nonmeta group 2.5k dps

Which one will get faster kill times?

We just have to accept the fact that no matter what the devs do in this game, there will ALWAYS be the “best” way to build/gear your character.

@cafard, Okay, now tell me, you’re crossing a road and a car is coming very fast to crush you. Is it better to take the freaking hit in the face and heal after in the hospital, or safely block it/avoid it ?

In the actual state of the game you CAN take the freaking hit and heal afterwards. See the links in my previous post. No need to change anything if you want to play like that.

hybrid.5027:

The weapons and utility skills you choose determines your playstyle. The traits you choose determines how effective you are at that playstyle.

Your gear determines how much damage you can soak up passive if you are bad at dodging. Your gear determines how hard the attacks you land will hit.

It would be nice if people understood how the character building system in this game works before opening new threads like this.

Alright, I wanted to respond to a lot of these, but this is a good one to start on. This is an example of someone who doesn’t understand why this thread subject opens time and time again.

Everything you just said is correct. But this is where the problem begins. For those of you who are saying “zerker isn’t a build, it’s just a stat set!” you are so incorrect. It’s named after the stat set, yes, but what the zerker meta actually means is that you go into a dungeon with all damage gear, all damage stats, and a SELECT FEW SKILLS THAT YOU’LL RUN EVERY DUNGEON WITH. I run a mesmer for instance, and every. single. dungeon. I run the condition healing mantra, the stability mantra, and feedback for my three utility slots. My elite is always time warp, which rarely varies for mass invis. That’s it. Out of all the skills my class has, I can run those three utility skills and my dungeon runs never fail. We never wipe, we run through it quickly, and I’ve only used 3 abilities aside from my weapons (wich by the way is always sword focus, because once again, I don’t need any other abilities). The post I quoted seems to believe that we’re choosing these builds, but there comes a point, as I said in my first post, where veteran players see the build that’ll work for dungeons, and from then on it’s over.

Now the other thing I see people saying for some reason is that “well, if they were to shift the meta, there would be a new best build and everyone would have to run that.” What you fail to understand is that we’re not asking for a shift in the meta, we’re asking for an expansion of the meta. Imagine if I said “Eh, I’m getting bored of my zerker mesmer, I think I’ll switch over to condi damage.” And then I dropped my sword and focus for a scepter and torch. If that were viable, that would be amazing! And then I get bored of condi so I switch over to control. And then from control I decide I want to play a support mesmer. That would be the final result of solving the zerker meta problem.

I feel kind of sad that I have to say this again as if this point isn’t obvious, but yes, I understand that we CAN run these other builds. It’s possible to find a group that will run them. Yup. Cool. Unfortunately, you can feel the difference tremendously. Once you’re good enough, the zerker builds are the only builds worth running. And that’s what I kind of feel like this whole zerker complaint is coming from, us veteran players. The players who are sick of running the same old builds over and over again. I want to use my staff on my mesmer without feeling my dps drop like a sack of potatoes in PVE. And many others want that too. We want to be able to use other weapons and skills in dungeons without it taking twice as long. That’s literally it.

So no, the stat isn’t the problem, in fact let’s change the name of the zerker meta problem right now. Let’s call it the “lack of build diversity” problem. And instead of just complaining and making endless threads about this issue, let’s discuss possibilities so that one day, when you get bored of your zerker build, you can say “hey, I think I’ll switch my build over to condi or support” and that wouldn’t be a bad thing to do.

Capitol City.4856:

Now the other thing I see people saying for some reason is that “well, if they were to shift the meta, there would be a new best build and everyone would have to run that.” What you fail to understand is that we’re not asking for a shift in the meta, we’re asking for an expansion of the meta. Imagine if I said “Eh, I’m getting bored of my zerker mesmer, I think I’ll switch over to condi damage.” And then I dropped my sword and focus for a scepter and torch. If that were viable, that would be amazing! And then I get bored of condi so I switch over to control. And then from control I decide I want to play a support mesmer. That would be the final result of solving the zerker meta problem.

Basically asking for a trinity like model ? Or in other words, you want the game to REQUIRE a certain gameplay/build to complete content. I’ll say it again, the game is designed to AVOID that all together. ArenaNet stated it (especially Colin) many times. And nothing stops you to play this controll/support mesmer. NOTHING but yourself.

Only part that must change is condition damage. Yup, this one is a mess in PvE.

Mesmer also uses null field, arcane thievery, daze mantra, portal etc.. if you are just sticking to those skills, then it really tells what kind of player you are.

Kordash.2197:

Capitol City.4856:

Now the other thing I see people saying for some reason is that “well, if they were to shift the meta, there would be a new best build and everyone would have to run that.” What you fail to understand is that we’re not asking for a shift in the meta, we’re asking for an expansion of the meta. Imagine if I said “Eh, I’m getting bored of my zerker mesmer, I think I’ll switch over to condi damage.” And then I dropped my sword and focus for a scepter and torch. If that were viable, that would be amazing! And then I get bored of condi so I switch over to control. And then from control I decide I want to play a support mesmer. That would be the final result of solving the zerker meta problem.

Basically asking for a trinity like model ? Or in other words, you want the game to REQUIRE a certain gameplay/build to complete content. I’ll say it again, the game is designed to AVOID that all together. ArenaNet stated it (especially Colin) many times. And nothing stops you to play this controll/support mesmer. NOTHING but yourself.

Not a trinity, just more options. And no, nothing is stopping me from doing that, but I’ll say it for a third time just for you, you can feel yourself doing considerably worse if you switch builds away from your zerker build.

Lifestealer.4910:

Mesmer also uses null field, arcane thievery, daze mantra, portal etc.. if you are just sticking to those skills, then it really tells what kind of player you are.

Why would I switch abilities when our parties run through the dungeon fine without doing so? That doesn’t make any sense.

Capitol City.4856:

snip
Why would I switch abilities when our parties run through the dungeon fine without doing so? That doesn’t make any sense.

Because your parties could be running through the dungeon better, faster, stronger :P

Capitol City.4856:

Alright, I wanted to respond to a lot of these, but this is a good one to start on. This is an example of someone who doesn’t understand why this thread subject opens time and time again.

I understand why the topic opens, on the contrary. It opens due to the ignorant folks in the community who believe gear = build and the same crew who want to play a hard trinity game for roleplaying reasons.

Everything you just said is correct.

Omg one of them finally admitted it! Too bad you didn’t stop there!

For those of you who are saying “zerker isn’t a build, it’s just a stat set!” you are so incorrect. It’s named after the stat set, yes, but what the zerker meta actually means is that you go into a dungeon with all damage gear, all damage stats, and a SELECT FEW SKILLS THAT YOU’LL RUN EVERY DUNGEON WITH. I run a mesmer for instance, and every. single. dungeon. I run the condition healing mantra, the stability mantra, and feedback for my three utility slots. My elite is always time warp, which rarely varies for mass invis. That’s it.

That means you’re not playing well. Not trying to be mean, but if you don’t know when and how to swap your utilities and weapon skills for each encounter its entirely probably you aren’t playing the game at a very high level.

Out of all the skills my class has, I can run those three utility skills and my dungeon runs never fail. We never wipe, we run through it quickly, and I’ve only used 3 abilities aside from my weapons (wich by the way is always sword focus, because once again, I don’t need any other abilities). The post I quoted seems to believe that we’re choosing these builds, but there comes a point, as I said in my first post, where veteran players see the build that’ll work for dungeons, and from then on it’s over.

So you’re complaining because mesmer mainhand sword is their best DPS weapon? So what? There will ALWAYS be a best weapon for a particular encounter or objective. What does this have to due with berserker gear? Absolutely nothing, you’re muddled.

Now the other thing I see people saying for some reason is that “well, if they were to shift the meta, there would be a new best build and everyone would have to run that.” What you fail to understand is that we’re not asking for a shift in the meta, we’re asking for an expansion of the meta. Imagine if I said “Eh, I’m getting bored of my zerker mesmer, I think I’ll switch over to condi damage.” And then I dropped my sword and focus for a scepter and torch. If that were viable, that would be amazing! And then I get bored of condi so I switch over to control. And then from control I decide I want to play a support mesmer. That would be the final result of solving the zerker meta problem.

No one is opposed to condition damage being fixed and becoming part of the meta. What you do not understand, is that the meta berserker mesmer is a support and control builds. You think people bring Mesmer to dungeons for their third tier DPS? Really? No, they bring them for their support and control skills. Since I have already proved, and you already agreed, that gear =/= playstyle then you automatically agree with this. Or do you think mesmer uses Focus in dungeons because it provides high DPS?

the zerker builds are the only builds worth running. And that’s what I kind of feel like this whole zerker complaint is coming from, us veteran players. The players who are sick of running the same old builds over and over again. I want to use my staff on my mesmer without feeling my dps drop like a sack of potatoes in PVE. And many others want that too. We want to be able to use other weapons and skills in dungeons without it taking twice as long. That’s literally it.

YOUR GEAR IS NOT YOUR BUILD? I can understand wanting to use different weapons, that makes sense to me. But why do you CARE about your gear prefix? Why do you WANT to wear tanky gear when you don’t need it. You claim to be a “veteran player.” Do “veteran players” need Soldiers gear to survive? No, they don’t. So why do they WANT to wear it? Why do they WANT it to function differently? this is the most absurd non-sense I ever read.

So no, the stat isn’t the problem, in fact let’s change the name of the zerker meta problem right now. Let’s call it the “lack of build diversity” problem. And instead of just complaining and making endless threads about this issue, let’s discuss possibilities so that one day, when you get bored of your zerker build, you can say “hey, I think I’ll switch my build over to condi or support” and that wouldn’t be a bad thing to do.

There is no lack of build diversity. Gear is not a build. A build is your weapon and traits. Gear is your tankiness vs your damage score. A mesmer in Nomads with a sword will play exactly like a mesmer in berserker with a sword.

Tree.3916:

Arkinos.7245:

Tree.3916:

Reducing mob health will only make the Meta groups kill faster which would still keep it more viable than anything else.

Not if you increase NPC armor to reach the same levels of effective hp.

If NPC armor is raised then meta groups will have slower kill times but nonmeta groups will still have poor dps resulting in even slower kill times. That would not change the meta, only make nonmeta builds that much worse.

Example
Meta group 10kdps
Nonmeta group 5k dps

Lets cut the dps in half to simulate extra armor on mobs shall we ?

Meta group 5kdps
Nonmeta group 2.5k dps

Which one will get faster kill times?

We just have to accept the fact that no matter what the devs do in this game, there will ALWAYS be the “best” way to build/gear your character.

How about this:

Zerker group: 10k dps raw damage
Condi Group: 5k dps conditions

Reduce NPC health by 50% and double armor. (the total effective hp against raw damage are identical)

The Zerk group has to go through just as much effective HP than before, taking just as much time.
The condi group now has to burn only half as much HP, which means they now need as much time as the zerker group for the boss.

This assumes higher stack limits for bosses, which is also not hard to do.

PvP problems: none
PvE: fixed

Greater the risk => Greater the reward. You want speed, but don’t want to max your damages. You want diversity, yet you limit yourself to certain skills.

Kind of a paradox no ?

“Why would I switch abilities when our parties run through the dungeon fine without doing so? That doesn’t make any sense.”

Fair enough. Then why complain about diversity ? You are already doing fine with your build ! Want to do better ? Change it !

@Capitol.

The zerk meta means you go into a dungeon with whatever tools it takes in order to clear it as quickly as possible for the rewards.
People who use this meta don’t care about the content itself or using many skills. They care about the rewards. I don’t care if I use the same weapon, trinkets, traits, and weapon skills if they get me rewards faster and more effectively. That’s my mindset.

You can’t change that – people aren’t doing the dungeons for the experience but for the shiny reward at the end.

If you want variety you can have that by playing with similarly minded people in non-zerk meta groups that don’t focus on rewards and nothing else.

You can play any skill with any armor combo and do any crazy thing you want in a dungeon – just form your own group and find people that play like you want to.

Now the other thing I see people saying for some reason is that “well, if they were to shift the meta, there would be a new best build and everyone would have to run that.” What you fail to understand is that we’re not asking for a shift in the meta, we’re asking for an expansion of the meta. Imagine if I said “Eh, I’m getting bored of my zerker mesmer, I think I’ll switch over to condi damage.” And then I dropped my sword and focus for a scepter and torch. If that were viable, that would be amazing! And then I get bored of condi so I switch over to control. And then from control I decide I want to play a support mesmer. That would be the final result of solving the zerker meta problem.

Except this isn’t possible. One of these variants will be more effective on mesmer. I don’t know which one.

But in the new meta let’s say mesmer will do one of the roles above better than all other classes.
Do you think you’ll find a group for your mesmer if you’re not that specific role once the new meta establishes itself? Hardly.

Efficiency driven people will find out what roles are best filled by what classes in the “new meta” and will enforce these roles upon those classes.

Want to run with efficiency-meta-reward oriented players? You’ll have to play the role that your class does best in the new meta or leave the group and be replaced. It’s that simple.

Of course you can play any role in groups that aren’t formed efficiency oriented meta-reward driven players but you can also do that now in the current meta.

The “lack of build diversity” problem will never go away because it’s a state that is enforced by people who don’t care about build diversity or playing diverse builds – they care about rewards.

I’m one of those players – been playing the “meta build” ever since the first ones came out and honestly I do not care. I am not bored. I’m using the best means at my disposal to get my rewards.

You basically want to utilize things that aren’t “the best” but still have the best results. Which is absurd.

They can’t make every weapon set and every game play choice the same so that people play every set-up and get the same output in dps and clear times.

Tree.3916:

Capitol City.4856:

snip
Why would I switch abilities when our parties run through the dungeon fine without doing so? That doesn’t make any sense.

Because your parties could be running through the dungeon better, faster, stronger :P

Is that really what we’ve come to? :P Switching up our abilities every now and then so we’re feeling like we’re doing something different. You guys keep saying I CAN switch my abilities, but I don’t need to. I’m running level 40 fractals with the same three skills (yeah, I guess I switch up every now and then, blink and nullfield are good in some situations… that’s not a solution, that’s just you guys trying to squirm your way around the issue).

Also, I don’t want to quote the entire response someone just gave me, but if you read what I said, I don’t believe it’s a “zerker meta” problem. I don’t care about the stats, and I already clarified that “zerker meta” has much more to do with a lack of build diversity than stats.

ONCE AGAIN, the zerker meta is not a problem because of stats. Let’s get that out of the way. The zerker meta is a problem because we’re very restricted to a certain amount of skills/traits that would be intelligent to run. And we’re stuck running those same abilities/traits for all eternity. And that sucks. If you disagree, explain why, I’d love to hear why you think a condi build would be super cool in dungeons, I want to be convinced otherwise.

P.S. Yeah, I know mesmer zerker is support/control. It’s support/control/damage and everything else. And that’s why I can’t switch up my build. Because I can run everything I need in all my abilities with little need to change ever. And that’s boooooooring. Why do you think this thread keep reappearing? Because people are bored of running the same build in every dungeon. THAT’S what we’re trying to find a solution for. Not stats, build diversity.

I love how many people jump into this thread as if I was attacking Zerk when I explicitly stated that Zerk itself isn’t the problem.

A bunch of Einsteins lurk here.

Capitol City.4856:

ONCE AGAIN, the zerker meta is not a problem because of stats. Let’s get that out of the way. The zerker meta is a problem because we’re very restricted to a certain amount of skills/traits that would be intelligent to run. And we’re stuck running those same abilities/traits for all eternity. And that sucks. If you disagree, explain why, I’d love to hear why you think a condi build would be super cool in dungeons, I want to be convinced otherwise.

Let’s get it simple :

There is no system, in real life, or ingame, that doesn’t have an optimal. By this i mean, whatever you do, there will always be ONE and ONLY ONE BEST way to do things. There will be plenty of VIABLE ways though. But always ONLY ONE OPTIMAL.

That’s life. And no one can change it. Gods maybe. But we are not gods. Neither the devs.

Einlanzer.1627:

So we all know Berserker is by far the most effective build for most PvE, …. snip.

That was your problem. Berserker is not a build. Your entire premise is invalidated by that one error.

Kordash.2197:

Capitol City.4856:

ONCE AGAIN, the zerker meta is not a problem because of stats. Let’s get that out of the way. The zerker meta is a problem because we’re very restricted to a certain amount of skills/traits that would be intelligent to run. And we’re stuck running those same abilities/traits for all eternity. And that sucks. If you disagree, explain why, I’d love to hear why you think a condi build would be super cool in dungeons, I want to be convinced otherwise.

Let’s get it simple :

There is no system, in real life, or ingame, that doesn’t have an optimal. By this i mean, whatever you do, there will always be ONE and ONLY ONE BEST way to do things. There will be plenty of VIABLE ways though. But always ONLY ONE OPTIMAL.

That’s life. And no one can change it. Gods maybe. But we are not gods. Nether the devs.

That’s true, and I’ve already said that, but Guild Wars 2 is practically the only MMO where optimization means 1 build. We’re looking for a way for optimization to equal 2 or 3 builds per class. Yes, I understand the holy trinity is one way to solve this problem, but since we’re trying to stay away from that, let’s think of some other ideas.

Tree.3916:

Einlanzer.1627:

So we all know Berserker is by far the most effective build for most PvE, …. snip.

That was your problem. Berserker is not a build. Your entire premise is invalidated by that one error.

I already elaborated on this. Go read some of my previous posts. Zerker IS a build, it’s just named after the stat set. What zerker builds are, are builds that allow your entire party to run zerker stats and get away with it. Blinds, aegis, things that make it so we can all run around in the nude and still defeat dungeons. I’ve also discussed the problem with this. It opens the door to no build diversity. Every class has one, maybe two builds to run. And that’s boring. And that’s what we’re all trying to change.

oxtred.7658:

" I don’t like being useful for my group, nerf the ability to be useful so I don’t feel guilty !"

I love these smart-kitten retorts that demonstrate a complete failure of conceptualization and comprehension of the nuances of this discussion.

I don’t wear Clerics gear and I never get kicked out of groups. Clearly, the goal is not “nerf zerker so I can be carried”, which doesn’t even make sense, it is actually to have a philosophical discussion on the nature of GW2 combat, build diversity, and the best way to design compelling PvE content.

Troll harder.

maddoctor.2738:

Einlanzer.1627:

So we all know Berserker is by far the most effective build for most PvE,

Stopped there, no reason to continue with the rest if the beginning of the thread is completely flawed. “Berserker” is NOT a build, it’s your gear Stats. Let’s take a deep breath and repeat this as many times as it is required to understand it, gear stats DOES NOT equal your build.

There is no real problem with build Diversity in the game, good players switch their build on the fly to suit their party’s need. There is no problem with Support and Control either since the best players are using a LOT of both in any given run.

Unless of course you put Might Stacking, Aegis, Stability, Protection, Condi Cleanse, Stealth, Blind, Weakness, Reflects, Banners, Passive Stat Boosts, Spirits, Time Warp and all other Support/Control abilities, that are used in every single dungeon run, in “Damage” for some obscure reason.

Where exactly is the problem?

Tree.3916:

Einlanzer.1627:

So we all know Berserker is by far the most effective build for most PvE, …. snip.

That was your problem. Berserker is not a build. Your entire premise is invalidated by that one error.

Yes it is. Zerker is short-hand for a min/maxed direct DPS build. It just gets its name from the stat combination that best supports that build.

Support and control only happen insofar as they’re allowed to function without significantly interrupting the DPS game.

It is a problem, because it means that PvE content is not designed well.

Einlanzer.1627:

oxtred.7658:

" I don’t like being useful for my group, nerf the ability to be useful so I don’t feel guilty !"

I love these smart-kitten retorts that demonstrate a complete failure of conceptualization and comprehension of the nuances of this discussion.

I don’t wear Clerics gear and I never get kicked out of groups. Clearly, the goal is not “nerf zerker so I can be carried”, which doesn’t even make sense, it is actually a discussion on the nature of GW2 combat, build diversity, and the best way to design compelling PvE content.

Troll harder.

Thank you. Exactly. We’re looking for a way to open more builds up to people. Because right now it’s 1 build per class. It’s not about the stat, please, everyone stop talking about the freaking stat. We’d change the name of zerker meta if we could, but it’s pretty hard wired into everyone’s head by now.

Before ANYONE says anything about how zerker isn’t a build, it’s a stat, go read everything that’s been said. PLEASE. You’re not contributing to the conversation at all.

Einlanzer.1627:

encounters and builds can be conceived that work with within the framework of a distinctive role structure – support, healing, control, or even tanking. Meta could be allowed to develop around these roles rather than just around the current single pure, direct DPS role.

This exactly right there is your problem. I’m sorry to break it to you OP but if you think zerker meta pve doesn’t involve massive amounts of control skills you’ve been carried hard. The problem is not that everyone just deals damage, the “problem” is that you can do all the support the party needs in damage gear (which isnt a problem at all considering they want people to be able to play whichever gear set they want to play, which they CAN right now. If encounters require one player to tank and/or one player to heal… guess what… trinity – people wont be accepted to groups because “we still need a healer” – do you really think that’s a better solution?). Playing any but the easiest dungeons without blinds, reflects, stealth, blocks ect in full zerker would be quite difficult, it’s not though because people actually push their buttons.

Seriously OP, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRgZYr-yIxs (and then the video of whatever class it is you play) and tell me “the zerk meta” is nothing but 5 people button mash-dpsing their way through dungeons.

Have you tried putting yourself in situations where your Zerk build would not be the best?

And all you are proposing to “fix” this so called “problem” is to create dedicated roles. Wich the game is designed to avoid.

Can’t you see this is a dead end ?

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Altair.6109:

There is nothing wrong with zerker gears.
As long as they remove the whole stacking thing , this game is fine as it is.

PS: you have no idea how hard mai trin gets when zerker players insist on wearing zerker but can’t dodge any single skill shots.

Had a Nomad Warrior face tank Mai Trinn on FOTM 50 the other day while the rest of the party stood at the edge of melee range and zerked. It was the fastest pug run I’ve ever done. Every lightning hit in full, Mai didn’t teleport, no one went down. Is this the ideal comp for speed runners? No, of course not. But for a pug group I was crying with happiness. I actually thanked the guy for bringing a Nomad set because he saved the rest of us from even having to dodge.

I think we need to highlight this post…

Good PoV: BUILD DIVERSITY

Other PoV: So a guy tanked and the rest pew pewd from the edge of the map.. G-EFFIN-G

This sure “increased efficiency” alright. Now one guy is able to handle both the main and sub boss and the others can afk on AA.

You guys see? It’s already here.

So this whole zerk discussion comes down to “that guy thinks zerk is sooo good and won’t take my PvE bunker”

In regards to AI… Well the proof is in the pudding… Having that one guy set his build up to basically generate “threat” by having high passive defense and heal over any damage taken allowed his group to breeze through dungeon. Fractals 50 at that.

Capitol City.4856:

Tree.3916:

Capitol City.4856:

snip
Why would I switch abilities when our parties run through the dungeon fine without doing so? That doesn’t make any sense.

Because your parties could be running through the dungeon better, faster, stronger :P

Is that really what we’ve come to? :P Switching up our abilities every now and then so we’re feeling like we’re doing something different. You guys keep saying I CAN switch my abilities, but I don’t need to. I’m running level 40 fractals with the same three skills (yeah, I guess I switch up every now and then, blink and nullfield are good in some situations… that’s not a solution, that’s just you guys trying to squirm your way around the issue).

You do need to. Well, you do need to if you care about playing well. But your responses sound remarkably lazy so I’m guessing you don’t give a care about the quality of your game play.

The zerker meta is a problem because we’re very restricted to a certain amount of skills/traits that would be intelligent to run. And we’re stuck running those same abilities/traits for all eternity. And that sucks. If you disagree, explain why, I’d love to hear why you think a condi build would be super cool in dungeons, I want to be convinced otherwise.

Your skills are dictated by the dungeon genius. If the boss puts conditions on your, you bring utilities that cleanse conditions. If he has CC you bring stability. If you shoots projectiles you bring reflects. This isn’t rocket science dude. You can get away with using the same handful of skills in most dungeons because most PvE encounters have to do with bosses who melee, projectile, condition and/or CC. So you tend to use the same few skills that deal with these challenges most efficiently. What the heck does that have to do with build diversity? You’re seriously complaining that a boss uses CC skills and you’re forced to bring stability for it? My god.

P.S. Yeah, I know mesmer zerker is support/control. It’s support/control/damage and everything else. And that’s why I can’t switch up my build. Because I can run everything I need in all my abilities with little need to change ever. And that’s boooooooring. Why do you think this thread keep reappearing? Because people are bored of running the same build in every dungeon. THAT’S what we’re trying to find a solution for. Not stats, build diversity.

I already explained why. I’ll be even more direct this time: people want to roleplay as tanks/healers/“support.” Meaning they DON’T want to do ANY dps. They simply want to soak damage, spam heals, and cast buffs or debuffs without engaging in combat. This tradtitional, trinity gameplay fulfills their roleplaying desires. It fits the inner story they have crafted for their characters.

unfortunately, the game they are playing does not contain mechanics and systems that encourage the type of gameplay they desire to play. They are faced with a problem then.

1. Adapt to the game as it is.
2. Complain on the forums endlessly about wanting to play a trinity role in a non-trinity game.

Guess which they have chosen? Thanks for contributing.

Altair.6109:

There is nothing wrong with zerker gears.
As long as they remove the whole stacking thing , this game is fine as it is.

PS: you have no idea how hard mai trin gets when zerker players insist on wearing zerker but can’t dodge any single skill shots.

I second this.

One of the big drives of this game is cosmetic improvements. Stacking is ugly. I didn’t put in all this time to look good to have most of my character covered up through ally clipping during combat.

I love watching the “I am better at this game then you because I wear Zerk” fail at fighting Mai trin. Sorry, I’ll take the more “nooby” allies that will actually get it done.

Of note: I rarely see zerker-only for fractals in LFG. Far less than I see for arah or anything else.

Liz.1497:

Einlanzer.1627:

encounters and builds can be conceived that work with within the framework of a distinctive role structure – support, healing, control, or even tanking. Meta could be allowed to develop around these roles rather than just around the current single pure, direct DPS role.

This exactly right there is your problem. I’m sorry to break it to you OP but if you think zerker meta pve doesn’t involve massive amounts of control skills you’ve been carried hard. The problem is not that everyone just deals damage, the problem is that you can do all the support the party needs in damage gear. Playing any but the easiest dungeons without blinds, reflects, stealth, blocks ect in full zerker would be quite difficult, it’s not though because people actually push their buttons.

Seriously OP, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRgZYr-yIxs (and then the video of whatever class it is you play) and tell me “the zerk meta” is nothing but 5 people button mash-dpsing their way through dungeons.

Yeah, I get that. My point is that it isn’t a very good design. When you can achieve optimal DPS without sacrificing much of the utility needed to be successful, and when you build around support/control/utility and sacrifice huge amounts of DPS for it, it’s a design problem.

Capitol City.4856:

Everything you just said is correct. But this is where the problem begins. For those of you who are saying “zerker isn’t a build, it’s just a stat set!” you are so incorrect.

Zerker is not a build and never will be. It’s only an term that ppl use for a shortcut and frankly, ppl that use that are usually bad/ordinary players or ppl that just don’t use those build. There is no zerker trait, no zerker skills, no zerker runes, no zerker sigils. Ppl fixate on the gear and forget that its one of the least important aspect of your build.

Capitol City.4856:

It’s named after the stat set, yes, but what the zerker meta actually means is that you go into a dungeon with all damage gear, all damage stats, and a SELECT FEW SKILLS THAT YOU’LL RUN EVERY DUNGEON WITH. I run a mesmer for instance, and every. single. dungeon. I run the condition healing mantra, the stability mantra, and feedback for my three utility slots. My elite is always time warp, which rarely varies for mass invis. That’s it. Out of all the skills my class has, I can run those three utility skills and my dungeon runs never fail.

When I said that ppl using this term don’t really understand the concept behind it, that’s exactly what I mean. You play a tiny part of the Mesmer and you complain that there is only a tiny part of it? Mesmer, like most profession change between different trait, different utilities and weapons. Why use sword/focus when a fight don’t need a pull or reflect? Why don’t you change to Sw/Sw & Sw/Pistol against a boss. Why don’t you change your trait if your team need more reflect? Why don’t you take null field if you team need more condi removal? Why don’t you change you build depending if you are against a single boss or a bunch of mobs? Why don’t you change your utilities against bosses like the CoE Golem to remove its boons? If you want to play only one side of the Mesmer don’t complain that you can’t play other side because you should.

Capitol City.4856:

What you fail to understand is that we’re not asking for a shift in the meta, we’re asking for an expansion of the meta. Imagine if I said “Eh, I’m getting bored of my zerker mesmer, I think I’ll switch over to condi damage.” And then I dropped my sword and focus for a scepter and torch. If that were viable, that would be amazing! And then I get bored of condi so I switch over to control. And then from control I decide I want to play a support mesmer. That would be the final result of solving the zerker meta problem.

The only problem here is the condition build. That’s a real problem in pve that need to be address. You are also free to play whatever build you want. You won’t be as effective as other build, but it will work and you won’t fail. And its not like a on/off switch. You can have build that are pretty good even if they are not the best option. Sword/Focus isn’t the best option most of the time, but that doesn’t stop you from playing it right now. You are using a zerger gear even if assassin would be better on a mesmer, that’s not stopping you from using it now.

Capitol City.4856:

So no, the stat isn’t the problem, in fact let’s change the name of the zerker meta problem right now. Let’s call it the “lack of build diversity” problem. And instead of just complaining and making endless threads about this issue, let’s discuss possibilities so that one day, when you get bored of your zerker build, you can say “hey, I think I’ll switch my build over to condi or support” and that wouldn’t be a bad thing to do.

There is a diversity in build but you don’t seem to be wiling to use it. There is different build and weapons that fit different situation. On my guardian I switch between 4 different build, use 12 different utilities and I always have 7 different kind of weapons on me for PvE and that doesn’t count the same weapons with different sigils.

Ya of course there is problem with the game and more build diversity would be nice. Condition damage being the biggest things since the beginning of the game. Sinister gear should be as popular as assassin and zerker but it isn’t. There is plenty of type of runes that would be awesome to have in PvE. They can add some trait that would create good new build, Phalanx is the perfect exemple of that. But when you are saying that you want to switch between dps and support build you can already do this right now. The speed run community advocate this in their build, support is super important in this game, most of the meta build have that, but ppl still only see the dps side because of zerker.

Kordash.2197:

And all you are proposing to “fix” this so called “problem” is to create dedicated roles. Wich the game is designed to avoid.

Can’t you see this is a dead end ?

No. Not dedicated roles. Soft roles. I would never advocate being able to do only one thing. I would advocate for the most efficient party set up to include some diversity and for encounters to be designed that require a combination of strategies to be most successful.

This is very possible to do – it’s what, for example, D&D combat is built around.

Einlanzer.1627:

Liz.1497:

Einlanzer.1627:

encounters and builds can be conceived that work with within the framework of a distinctive role structure – support, healing, control, or even tanking. Meta could be allowed to develop around these roles rather than just around the current single pure, direct DPS role.

This exactly right there is your problem. I’m sorry to break it to you OP but if you think zerker meta pve doesn’t involve massive amounts of control skills you’ve been carried hard. The problem is not that everyone just deals damage, the problem is that you can do all the support the party needs in damage gear. Playing any but the easiest dungeons without blinds, reflects, stealth, blocks ect in full zerker would be quite difficult, it’s not though because people actually push their buttons.

Seriously OP, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRgZYr-yIxs (and then the video of whatever class it is you play) and tell me “the zerk meta” is nothing but 5 people button mash-dpsing their way through dungeons.

Yeah, I get that. My point is that it isn’t a very good design. When you can achieve optimal DPS without sacrificing much of the utility needed to be successful, and when you build around support/control/utility and sacrifice huge amounts of DPS for it, it’s a design problem.

My point is that you don’t like the core design choices for this game and want to change it.

Not going to happen.

Capitol City.4856:

Every class has one, maybe two builds to run. And that’s boring. And that’s what we’re all trying to change.

Don’t know about you but at level 80 i have 20+ different gear stats, 15 minor and 65 major traits, lots of weapons and of utility skills.

Kordash.2197:

Einlanzer.1627:

Liz.1497:

Einlanzer.1627:

encounters and builds can be conceived that work with within the framework of a distinctive role structure – support, healing, control, or even tanking. Meta could be allowed to develop around these roles rather than just around the current single pure, direct DPS role.

This exactly right there is your problem. I’m sorry to break it to you OP but if you think zerker meta pve doesn’t involve massive amounts of control skills you’ve been carried hard. The problem is not that everyone just deals damage, the problem is that you can do all the support the party needs in damage gear. Playing any but the easiest dungeons without blinds, reflects, stealth, blocks ect in full zerker would be quite difficult, it’s not though because people actually push their buttons.

Seriously OP, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRgZYr-yIxs (and then the video of whatever class it is you play) and tell me “the zerk meta” is nothing but 5 people button mash-dpsing their way through dungeons.

Yeah, I get that. My point is that it isn’t a very good design. When you can achieve optimal DPS without sacrificing much of the utility needed to be successful, and when you build around support/control/utility and sacrifice huge amounts of DPS for it, it’s a design problem.

My point is that you don’t like the core design choices for this game and want to change it.

Not going to happen.

I don’t think it was a design choice. I think it was a design oversight. They wanted to avoid a hard trinity, which is great – I’m all for it. But they also want build diversity and content that benefits from a variety of strategic approaches.

I refuse to believe that one build to rule them all was their design choice.

I can’t believe how confounded everyone is on this topic. It’s like none of you are really thinking clearly.

And by the way, we already have soft roles. It’s the different class. What you guys are are describing IS dedicated roles.

Einlanzer.1627:

Kordash.2197:

Einlanzer.1627:

Liz.1497:

Einlanzer.1627:

encounters and builds can be conceived that work with within the framework of a distinctive role structure – support, healing, control, or even tanking. Meta could be allowed to develop around these roles rather than just around the current single pure, direct DPS role.

This exactly right there is your problem. I’m sorry to break it to you OP but if you think zerker meta pve doesn’t involve massive amounts of control skills you’ve been carried hard. The problem is not that everyone just deals damage, the problem is that you can do all the support the party needs in damage gear. Playing any but the easiest dungeons without blinds, reflects, stealth, blocks ect in full zerker would be quite difficult, it’s not though because people actually push their buttons.

Seriously OP, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRgZYr-yIxs (and then the video of whatever class it is you play) and tell me “the zerk meta” is nothing but 5 people button mash-dpsing their way through dungeons.

Yeah, I get that. My point is that it isn’t a very good design. When you can achieve optimal DPS without sacrificing much of the utility needed to be successful, and when you build around support/control/utility and sacrifice huge amounts of DPS for it, it’s a design problem.

My point is that you don’t like the core design choices for this game and want to change it.

Not going to happen.

I don’t think it was a design choice. I think it was a design oversight. They wanted to avoid a hard trinity, which is great – I’m all for it. But they also want build diversity and content that benefits from a variety of strategic approaches.

I refuse to believe that one build to rule them all was their design choice.

I can’t believe how confounded everyone is on this topic. It’s like none of you are really thinking clearly.

One build to rule them all ? Each class have at least 2 meta builds ! (exept Necro, this poor fellah HoT greatswords will change that)

Zerk is not actually best in all situations and all PvE content. People just try to force it to be.

Zerk is sometimes not even the best DPS. I’ve witness more balanced builds face-tank the small hits and dodge the big hits, while the zerk build had to dodge all the hits. The player actually attacking the mob was doing more damage.

You see the pug-group wall-stack meta and other exploits in dungeons because they are trying to force zerk to work where it is not the best.

What do people define as a build?

Personally I define it as my gear/trait/rune/sigil/waepon/skill choices that create my play style. The key being the play style.