Guild Wars 2

Is the survivability of a warrior/guardian wearing full berserker gear as bad as thief/ele (squishy classes) when doing PVE (dungeon and fractals) ?

Nope. It’s better imho

You don’t need anything but Zerker gear. Just suit up, rip out your brain, and fall in-line with the zerg.

Way better. Warrior get higher natural health, and guardians get all kinds of boons that are unaffected by gear choices (and can heal on dodge, much like an elementalist).

Warrior/guardian are easymode and selfsufficient. You don’t need group support to perform.

The casters need proper group composition for the run not to be painful.

The differences in health pools are vast, and what the guardian doesn’t have in health he makes up with prot uptime and passive regen+the most reflects/projectile absorbs in game and blinds.

And to top it off despite the survivability/sustainability gap, warriors match or surpass most casters in damage dealt. Thieves beat warriors single target, but warrior cleave is much better than thief, and warriors bring might, fury, and vuln stacking along banners which have exclusive benefits only the warrior can bring (primary stat boost, the best boost in the game).

Guardians bring somewhat less damage than a thor ele, but their utility is so strong it trivializes most encounters (group block, group heals, aoe blind, the highest reflect uptimes in the game, and CC+prot+regen).

Basically, you bring a thief once you have no warrior/guardian slots to fill. Guardians and warriors are the backbone of a group. The other classes are side dressing. Thor ele is nice, but it won’t match the impact of a guardian or warrior in a group besides the occassional FGS cheese.

In terms of group damage/support boosts, the warrior and guardian are unmatched, on top of their ease of use. A Thor ele must be way more careful about how he plays. You’ll literally get one shot in some cases if you don’t have the proper support from your group.

I’m quite sure a heavy armored class with zerk has better survivability than an ele/thief with soldier/sentinel.

Noctis.4753:

Is the survivability of a warrior/guardian wearing full berserker gear as bad as thief/ele (squishy classes) when doing PVE (dungeon and fractals) ?

Your survivability is more reliant on your ability to press ‘V’ than anything else.
I’ve been on dungeons and fractals where the heavies are constantly down and the squishies stay up, and vice-versa. Thief, Guardian, Ele, whatever…..it doesn’t really matter as dodging is more important than class or gear when it comes to surviving in PvE.

IMO there is a huge difference. At least in case of warrior (guardian low base HP can be shaky sometimes). When I play my full zerker warrior I often feel as tanky as other profs in PVT gear. My zerker thief is way more squishy and requires actually to stay focused to not get downed all the time.

MrRuin.9740:

Noctis.4753:

Is the survivability of a warrior/guardian wearing full berserker gear as bad as thief/ele (squishy classes) when doing PVE (dungeon and fractals) ?

Your survivability is more reliant on your ability to press ‘V’ than anything else.
I’ve been on dungeons and fractals where the heavies are constantly down and the squishies stay up, and vice-versa. Thief, Guardian, Ele, whatever…..it doesn’t really matter as dodging is more important than class or gear when it comes to surviving in PvE.

Often a warrior can miss a dodge and stay up, but a thief won’t. Thief is kind of hard mode for some encounters.

MrRuin.9740:

Noctis.4753:

Is the survivability of a warrior/guardian wearing full berserker gear as bad as thief/ele (squishy classes) when doing PVE (dungeon and fractals) ?

Your survivability is more reliant on your ability to press ‘V’ than anything else.
I’ve been on dungeons and fractals where the heavies are constantly down and the squishies stay up, and vice-versa. Thief, Guardian, Ele, whatever…..it doesn’t really matter as dodging is more important than class or gear when it comes to surviving in PvE.

The thing is, high base HP of warriors will let you “eat some” and provides you a cushion to let your high damage kill your target before you actually get downed. Other classes with zerker gear dont get that cushion. You end up downed at the moment where warrior would be still sitting at 30% (at that point you either finish your target or retreat to use longbow/rifle, drop a heal etc.). Not to mention warriors downed state is pure hack for PvE if you take Sweet Revenge trait. Even if you do get downed, use Vengeance and pop 100b. Unless its a champion, you will finish him of and your vengeance debuff will be canceled.

The problem I have with zerker gear, is that everyone keeps preaching it, Yet I do not wear it, and notice the amount of damage the group loses from “me do um big leet damage” being downed. Then we lose more damage as I have to stop and get them up.

coglin.1867:

The problem I have with zerker gear, is that everyone keeps preaching it, Yet I do not wear it, and notice the amount of damage the group loses from “me do um big leet damage” being downed. Then we lose more damage as I have to stop and get them up.

Non-Zerker gear gives you a higher margin of tolerance. But its not true that zerker = downed all the time. Good players will manage to stay alive in zerker. There are players better than me who keep running dungeons as zerker thieves and rarely get downed. I am not that good but on my zerker warrior I am doing very good and am quite often the last man standing (not like thats a feat, warriors are faceroll). Some people will not manage to stay alive even as warriors. It all depends from a player. That being said, as far as I can tell content is tuned to be completable by zerkers. Good player will run new TA path as a zerker and will manage well. Which means that a good player with zerker gear will always be a best option. That is a design flaw of this non-trinity system.

Another little niggle, the warrior healing signet has a passive heal pr second that match the heal pr second of most other professions heal skills. And the warrior still have the option of activating that signet for a spike heal equal to other heal skills (with a recharge not much longer than said heal skills). So most of the time a warrior can out heal most damage if he avoided the mobs spike attacks.

On the instances where I fail dodge, my berserker warrior can survive hits my non-zerker ele cannot. Regen is all well and good but the size of health pool means something as well.

Learn to be a Berserker perhaps perishing will not be an issue.

Awe.1096:

coglin.1867:

The problem I have with zerker gear, is that everyone keeps preaching it, Yet I do not wear it, and notice the amount of damage the group loses from “me do um big leet damage” being downed. Then we lose more damage as I have to stop and get them up.

Non-Zerker gear gives you a higher margin of tolerance. But its not true that zerker = downed all the time. Good players will manage to stay alive in zerker. There are players better than me who keep running dungeons as zerker thieves and rarely get downed. I am not that good but on my zerker warrior I am doing very good and am quite often the last man standing (not like thats a feat, warriors are faceroll). Some people will not manage to stay alive even as warriors. It all depends from a player. That being said, as far as I can tell content is tuned to be completable by zerkers. Good player will run new TA path as a zerker and will manage well. Which means that a good player with zerker gear will always be a best option. That is a design flaw of this non-trinity system.

With the Tower of Nightmares at least they seem to be moving away from that a little, making it much more beneficial to have some defensive stats. You can’t say zerkers are fine in there, I’ve seen way too many be downed in practically one shot on the bosses and from the exploding plants and stuff. I’m sure the very elite players manage but for average players they get rocked in there. Hopefully there will be more of this kind of content in the future so gear will be a bit more diverse.

Relair.1843:

Awe.1096:

coglin.1867:

The problem I have with zerker gear, is that everyone keeps preaching it, Yet I do not wear it, and notice the amount of damage the group loses from “me do um big leet damage” being downed. Then we lose more damage as I have to stop and get them up.

Non-Zerker gear gives you a higher margin of tolerance. But its not true that zerker = downed all the time. Good players will manage to stay alive in zerker. There are players better than me who keep running dungeons as zerker thieves and rarely get downed. I am not that good but on my zerker warrior I am doing very good and am quite often the last man standing (not like thats a feat, warriors are faceroll). Some people will not manage to stay alive even as warriors. It all depends from a player. That being said, as far as I can tell content is tuned to be completable by zerkers. Good player will run new TA path as a zerker and will manage well. Which means that a good player with zerker gear will always be a best option. That is a design flaw of this non-trinity system.

With the Tower of Nightmares at least they seem to be moving away from that a little, making it much more beneficial to have some defensive stats. You can’t say zerkers are fine in there, I’ve seen way too many be downed in practically one shot on the bosses and from the exploding plants and stuff. I’m sure the very elite players manage but for average players they get rocked in there. Hopefully there will be more of this kind of content in the future so gear will be a bit more diverse.

Non-berserkers can be one-shot as well as berserkers. What evidence can you provide that the people you see being repeatedly downed are wearing berserker gear?

Relair.1843:

Awe.1096:

coglin.1867:

The problem I have with zerker gear, is that everyone keeps preaching it, Yet I do not wear it, and notice the amount of damage the group loses from “me do um big leet damage” being downed. Then we lose more damage as I have to stop and get them up.

Non-Zerker gear gives you a higher margin of tolerance. But its not true that zerker = downed all the time. Good players will manage to stay alive in zerker. There are players better than me who keep running dungeons as zerker thieves and rarely get downed. I am not that good but on my zerker warrior I am doing very good and am quite often the last man standing (not like thats a feat, warriors are faceroll). Some people will not manage to stay alive even as warriors. It all depends from a player. That being said, as far as I can tell content is tuned to be completable by zerkers. Good player will run new TA path as a zerker and will manage well. Which means that a good player with zerker gear will always be a best option. That is a design flaw of this non-trinity system.

With the Tower of Nightmares at least they seem to be moving away from that a little, making it much more beneficial to have some defensive stats. You can’t say zerkers are fine in there, I’ve seen way too many be downed in practically one shot on the bosses and from the exploding plants and stuff. I’m sure the very elite players manage but for average players they get rocked in there. Hopefully there will be more of this kind of content in the future so gear will be a bit more diverse.

This would be more encouraging if gear was cheap. If other stat combos are going to become viable or important, I don’t want to do up to 25 dungeon runs for each alt (or get 50 gold, or whatever). That’s not even considering the ascended bullkitten.

Awe.1096:

Good players will manage to stay alive in zerker.

And this is where the problem begins. For starters there are not near as many “good” players as everyone likes to think there are. Secondly, there are too many players that “think” they are good players. Whats worse, is they act as if every time they go down, that it is a rare fluke. Funny think is, I see 3 posters here who I know for a fact i have played with, who are not good players, but are making the “good players” argument.

When I get down it’s usually because reflects not up, players not stacked, or not enough DPS that fights takes too long. There isn’t really a lot of one-shot kill mechanics in dungeons, and they are almost always easy to tell.

What I find more of a problem in PuGs is, players lie. They do it all the time to join a party, perhaps wanted to be carried. It could be hiding the fact that they are not “experienced” or not “zerkers”.

Yenn.9185:

When I get down it’s usually because reflects not up, players not stacked, or not enough DPS that fights takes too long. There isn’t really a lot of one-shot kill mechanics in dungeons, and they are almost always easy to tell.

What I find more of a problem in PuGs is, players lie. They do it all the time to join a party, perhaps wanted to be carried. It could be hiding the fact that they are not “experienced” or not “zerkers”.

I have nothing against your love and use of that gear, but your attitude attitude is “if I do badly, it must be someone else’s fault” which isn’t healthy nor 100% true at all times. Accidents happen, and it must not be someone else lying or doing something wrong.

I do agree that Berzerker’s gear player s do better together, as otherwise they may be too fragile for extended combat. That’s their tradeoff-however I NEVER lie to get into Berserker’s gear parties because I avoid them like the plague (the gear not being the problem, but rather avoiding any possible conflicts with their assumed playstyle and/or attitude-there are wonderful players using that gear, but IME some can be pretty intolerant.) It’s also better for these types of players to not play together given their differing approach to the game-I am sure you are just guessing negatively when you believe someone must have lied to get in a group and is theoretically slowing you down.

In short, I don’t doubt your playing prowess at all, but getting downed isn’t always someone else’s fault, especially if it’s just personal bias at work (you may extend this to a Profession or build despite gear, which isn’t right-“it must be the Necro/Ranger/bad build/etc. the reason I got downed!”)

I never targeted anyone of lying, especially not you. I’m speaking in general, and you can’t deny that PuGs lie; happens all the time. If I get down because someone didn’t interrupt or feedback at the right time, it’s on them. This is team effort and everyone has to do their job. You might not like or see it this way, but everyone is responsible for the duties of the characters they’re playing. So yes, I would blame a mesmer who didn’t feedback at lupi phase 2 when my party is stacked at melee.

coglin.1867:

Awe.1096:

Good players will manage to stay alive in zerker.

And this is where the problem begins. For starters there are not near as many “good” players as everyone likes to think there are. Secondly, there are too many players that “think” they are good players. Whats worse, is they act as if every time they go down, that it is a rare fluke. Funny think is, I see 3 posters here who I know for a fact i have played with, who are not good players, but are making the “good players” argument.

Well, since you are from Jade Quarry you didnt played with me for sure since I am in EU :p. Anyway, I didnt even claimed that I am an awesome player or anything. Above average probably. Good enough to stay alive on zerker warrior in places like new TA. But there are players better from me and they can stay alive on zerker thieves while I probably could not. On the other hand I have a cleric guardian and I did new TA 2-3 times with him. And TBH cleric guard was overtanked for my standards. I could managed to stay alive with way lower defenses which means my tank stats were pretty much wasted after certain treshold. The point of what I said earlier is not that people who cant stay alive as zerkers should L2P. In fact I dont have anything against running a dungeon with a mixed party as long as whatever people are wearing is working out for them. On the other hand I also have to admit that some of the best parties I had in dungeons while playing GW2 were mostly full zerker or almost. It is becouse if you have enough “good” players in your team, high damage will always be the best solution as player “skill” will compensate for lower defenses. It is not elitism by any means. This is a design flaw of the GW2’s no-trinity system.

Awe.1096:

coglin.1867:

Awe.1096:

Good players will manage to stay alive in zerker.

And this is where the problem begins. For starters there are not near as many “good” players as everyone likes to think there are. Secondly, there are too many players that “think” they are good players. Whats worse, is they act as if every time they go down, that it is a rare fluke. Funny think is, I see 3 posters here who I know for a fact i have played with, who are not good players, but are making the “good players” argument.

Well, since you are from Jade Quarry you didnt played with me for sure since I am in EU :p. Anyway, I didnt even claimed that I am an awesome player or anything. Above average probably. Good enough to stay alive on zerker warrior in places like new TA. But there are players better from me and they can stay alive on zerker thieves while I probably could not. On the other hand I have a cleric guardian and I did new TA 2-3 times with him. And TBH cleric guard was overtanked for my standards. I could managed to stay alive with way lower defenses which means my tank stats were pretty much wasted after certain treshold. The point of what I said earlier is not that people who cant stay alive as zerkers should L2P. In fact I dont have anything against running a dungeon with a mixed party as long as whatever people are wearing is working out for them. On the other hand I also have to admit that some of the best parties I had in dungeons while playing GW2 were mostly full zerker or almost. It is becouse if you have enough “good” players in your team, high damage will always be the best solution as player “skill” will compensate for lower defenses. It is not elitism by any means. This is a design flaw of the GW2’s no-trinity system.

I disagree (though that’s OK, no offense intended), because no MMO Trinity doesn’t necessarily means “only DPS role”, which is what you take for granted. It is a flaw only because the current system could better highlight control and support roles (meaning true support, not “Zerk” Guardian using his/her natural supportive abilities.) As of now-although ANet seems to be working on this with newer content-many Dungeons and encounter favor high damage, stacked melee, but that doesn’t mean that “DPS way” was what ANet really intended by getting rid of hard trinity roles.

Additionally, they would need to add more Dungeon paths (or new ones altogether) so they could fix this DPS is king attitude in the game. At the same time, Berserker’s players shouldn’t be penalized for using the gear, but the risk involved should be higher so players feel actual pressure from using high risk, high reward gear (on my Guardian I rarely feel this pressure, making more offensive gear all the more tempting and rewarding.) I am sure they realize that the Dungeon meta is too DPS heavy, and they could probably design better Dungeons at the moment, despite your ideas that it’s the game’s “no trinity” design flaw.

Survivability is MUCH better, when you look at numbers you’re actually not sacrificing that much of it, relative to damage increase you gain.
However if you’re running with other zerkers, your toughness still may end up being the highest in the group, so you’ll be getting all the aggro and you’ll seem less survivable than thiefs/eles.

Noctis.4753:

Is the survivability of a warrior/guardian wearing full berserker gear as bad as thief/ele (squishy classes) when doing PVE (dungeon and fractals) ?

Warriors have the highest base health and obviously good armor rating which makes them more durable . When you compare that to the ele or thief both of which have the lowest base health for their armor class the answer will always be no .

Awe.1096:

coglin.1867:

The problem I have with zerker gear, is that everyone keeps preaching it, Yet I do not wear it, and notice the amount of damage the group loses from “me do um big leet damage” being downed. Then we lose more damage as I have to stop and get them up.

Non-Zerker gear gives you a higher margin of tolerance. But its not true that zerker = downed all the time. Good players will manage to stay alive in zerker. There are players better than me who keep running dungeons as zerker thieves and rarely get downed. I am not that good but on my zerker warrior I am doing very good and am quite often the last man standing (not like thats a feat, warriors are faceroll). Some people will not manage to stay alive even as warriors. It all depends from a player. That being said, as far as I can tell content is tuned to be completable by zerkers. Good player will run new TA path as a zerker and will manage well. Which means that a good player with zerker gear will always be a best option. That is a design flaw of this non-trinity system.

In theory, you can dodge everything, but in practice, like in the TA Aetherpath you mentioned, there will just be so much crud going on that you will just take damage. An even better example is the firts boss fight in the snow fractal, theres so many elemental shooting stuff everywhere + the blizzard making you unable to see much means that you will just take constant damage.

Another case is that us being humans, we will make mistakes. For example, like at lupi, sometimes I will just hit hit either because I screwed up my positioning or because I wasted too many dodges, and if I’m in my zerker set, thats a 1HKO.

coglin.1867:

The problem I have with zerker gear, is that everyone keeps preaching it, Yet I do not wear it, and notice the amount of damage the group loses from “me do um big leet damage” being downed. Then we lose more damage as I have to stop and get them up.

Have you considered that they get downed because you’re causing the fights to drag out longer than they should due to your sacrificing damage for defense?

Yenn.9185:

When I get down it’s usually because reflects not up, players not stacked, or not enough DPS that fights takes too long. There isn’t really a lot of one-shot kill mechanics in dungeons, and they are almost always easy to tell.

What I find more of a problem in PuGs is, players lie. They do it all the time to join a party, perhaps wanted to be carried. It could be hiding the fact that they are not “experienced” or not “zerkers”.

This.

It becomes very obvious when you’re in zerker groups after while to realise someone in the group isn’t in zerker gear because the boss fight lasts a lot longer than it should due significantly lower dps being put out. The difference in a full team of berzerker gear and half a team is the boss will live twice as long which is wear bad zerkers will die.

Lord Kuru.3685:

coglin.1867:

The problem I have with zerker gear, is that everyone keeps preaching it, Yet I do not wear it, and notice the amount of damage the group loses from “me do um big leet damage” being downed. Then we lose more damage as I have to stop and get them up.

Have you considered that they get downed because you’re causing the fights to drag out longer than they should due to your sacrificing damage for defense?

don’t be silly, he’s the perfect player and everyone else is always wrong look at his post history.

Star Ace.5207:

Awe.1096:

coglin.1867:

Awe.1096:

Good players will manage to stay alive in zerker.

And this is where the problem begins. For starters there are not near as many “good” players as everyone likes to think there are. Secondly, there are too many players that “think” they are good players. Whats worse, is they act as if every time they go down, that it is a rare fluke. Funny think is, I see 3 posters here who I know for a fact i have played with, who are not good players, but are making the “good players” argument.

Well, since you are from Jade Quarry you didnt played with me for sure since I am in EU :p. Anyway, I didnt even claimed that I am an awesome player or anything. Above average probably. Good enough to stay alive on zerker warrior in places like new TA. But there are players better from me and they can stay alive on zerker thieves while I probably could not. On the other hand I have a cleric guardian and I did new TA 2-3 times with him. And TBH cleric guard was overtanked for my standards. I could managed to stay alive with way lower defenses which means my tank stats were pretty much wasted after certain treshold. The point of what I said earlier is not that people who cant stay alive as zerkers should L2P. In fact I dont have anything against running a dungeon with a mixed party as long as whatever people are wearing is working out for them. On the other hand I also have to admit that some of the best parties I had in dungeons while playing GW2 were mostly full zerker or almost. It is becouse if you have enough “good” players in your team, high damage will always be the best solution as player “skill” will compensate for lower defenses. It is not elitism by any means. This is a design flaw of the GW2’s no-trinity system.

I disagree (though that’s OK, no offense intended), because no MMO Trinity doesn’t necessarily means “only DPS role”, which is what you take for granted. It is a flaw only because the current system could better highlight control and support roles (meaning true support, not “Zerk” Guardian using his/her natural supportive abilities.) As of now-although ANet seems to be working on this with newer content-many Dungeons and encounter favor high damage, stacked melee, but that doesn’t mean that “DPS way” was what ANet really intended by getting rid of hard trinity roles.

Additionally, they would need to add more Dungeon paths (or new ones altogether) so they could fix this DPS is king attitude in the game. At the same time, Berserker’s players shouldn’t be penalized for using the gear, but the risk involved should be higher so players feel actual pressure from using high risk, high reward gear (on my Guardian I rarely feel this pressure, making more offensive gear all the more tempting and rewarding.) I am sure they realize that the Dungeon meta is too DPS heavy, and they could probably design better Dungeons at the moment, despite your ideas that it’s the game’s “no trinity” design flaw.

Damage will always be a premium in every format. They can’t change that.

The fact is every character can heal himself, and the design of the mobs in this game is that they either hit consistently like a truck so you can’t outlast them and must kill them first, or if they were to nerf that damage mobs do, then zerkers would only get easier.

The only reason in trinity games why tanks and healers exist is because the dependency is created by game design. If warlocks could heal themselves in WoW, and nobody would need to worry about tanking because you can either dodge it or one of the classes could negate most damage for the group, there’d be no use for tanks or healers. They’d be extinct.

Furthermore, zerkers will always dominate on this game for the mere fact that this game is a grindfest when it comes to skins. You don’t get rewarded appropriately for clearing the content. In fact, in order to pay for a legendary you’re looking at running a dungeon about 1000 times.

Convert that to the best case scenario of 5-6 min clears for the easy dungeons. That’s 3.47-4.16 days of nonstop dungeon spam.

And guess what? You only get the gold reward once a day, so you can’t even do that. So you want to finish the dungeons as fast as possible to start doing activities in the game which actually net you reasonable profit to progress at a non-glacial pace toward expensive skins.

Have you looked at all the recently introduced skins to the game? None of them bought by tokens or obtained for clearing a dungeon. All of them either cash shop items or really low RNG drop rates making the skins cost large amounts of gold so people grind for them, or as Anet would like convert RL money to gems to trade them in for gold to reduce their grind.

And that’s why zerkers will always dominate. Zerker gear is what mitigates the grind the most.

issue ?

i usually have 2 sets for each character. whenever my characters wear the zerker set, i give them survival traits, so they balanced out….

so far no problem with survivability …..

Short answer is yes.

Even wit hdodge though there is some encounters that you simply can’t dodge everything and need to range with the squishier class. Encounters/boss that simply put out small aoe/cleave damage but in fast intervals. Where the warriors and guardians have abilities that keep them up for those and sometimes just ignore those, thieves have a harder time with tier standard all out serk builds.

MrRuin.9740:

Noctis.4753:

Is the survivability of a warrior/guardian wearing full berserker gear as bad as thief/ele (squishy classes) when doing PVE (dungeon and fractals) ?

Your survivability is more reliant on your ability to press ‘V’ than anything else.
I’ve been on dungeons and fractals where the heavies are constantly down and the squishies stay up, and vice-versa. Thief, Guardian, Ele, whatever…..it doesn’t really matter as dodging is more important than class or gear when it comes to surviving in PvE.

incorrect.
warriors/guardians will take less base dmg just from armor
they have more effective HP due to heals, protection
they have abilities which reduce dmg, like dolyak signet endure pain, aegis. they got strong hot like heal signet guardian has a large number of block skills.

the warrior guardian has to dodge less, and more dmg cancels. inspite of peoples belief to the contrary, there is a fairly large difference in what proffessions can do.

phys.7689:

MrRuin.9740:

Noctis.4753:

Is the survivability of a warrior/guardian wearing full berserker gear as bad as thief/ele (squishy classes) when doing PVE (dungeon and fractals) ?

Your survivability is more reliant on your ability to press ‘V’ than anything else.
I’ve been on dungeons and fractals where the heavies are constantly down and the squishies stay up, and vice-versa. Thief, Guardian, Ele, whatever…..it doesn’t really matter as dodging is more important than class or gear when it comes to surviving in PvE.

incorrect.
warriors/guardians will take less base dmg just from armor
they have more effective HP due to heals, protection
they have abilities which reduce dmg, like dolyak signet endure pain, aegis. they got strong hot like heal signet guardian has a large number of block skills.

the warrior guardian has to dodge less, and more dmg cancels. inspite of peoples belief to the contrary, there is a fairly large difference in what proffessions can do.

Guardians actually are forced to dodge if they have unscathed contender.

Imagine, not one hit must be taken for them to keep this up.

Oh and Doly Signet is nothing compared to Signet of Judgment and Signet of Stamina.

On a side note, I can barely understand your English, or your supposed “knowledge” on the professions you’re talking about.

I always get amused when I join “no noobs, only experienced, only zerker” groups for CoF p1, just to later see them constantly getting downed on bosses due to the fact that they have no idea which attacks to dodge and when to dodge them. They don’t even position them selves so they wouldn’t be hit by that cone spray attack the boss does.

Come on guys. Putting full zerker gear on and go to CoF p1 doesn’t make you a good player. Knowing when and what to dodge is basic knowledge.

Imo bosses should hit even harder to punish bad players who think zerker gear will get carry them.

The always highly praised Zerker builds – especially for non-warriors (and guardians to a certein extent) only work if the damage is right.

It is an extreme difference between a kind-of noobish group compared to a very effective and experienced group.

I play a Guardian with only around 11-12k life at lvl80 and hits sometime can nearly down me. But if I play in a group where Kholer dies in less than 10 seconds, I really don’t care about my health or anything. I have bigger problems to survive with an inexperienced groups.

Arthos Ravron.3796:

phys.7689:

MrRuin.9740:

Noctis.4753:

Is the survivability of a warrior/guardian wearing full berserker gear as bad as thief/ele (squishy classes) when doing PVE (dungeon and fractals) ?

Your survivability is more reliant on your ability to press ‘V’ than anything else.
I’ve been on dungeons and fractals where the heavies are constantly down and the squishies stay up, and vice-versa. Thief, Guardian, Ele, whatever…..it doesn’t really matter as dodging is more important than class or gear when it comes to surviving in PvE.

incorrect.
warriors/guardians will take less base dmg just from armor
they have more effective HP due to heals, protection
they have abilities which reduce dmg, like dolyak signet endure pain, aegis. they got strong hot like heal signet guardian has a large number of block skills.

the warrior guardian has to dodge less, and more dmg cancels. inspite of peoples belief to the contrary, there is a fairly large difference in what proffessions can do.

Guardians actually are forced to dodge if they have unscathed contender.

Imagine, not one hit must be taken for them to keep this up.

Oh and Doly Signet is nothing compared to Signet of Judgment and Signet of Stamina.

On a side note, I can barely understand your English, or your supposed “knowledge” on the professions you’re talking about.

I thought this post was amusing.

Curious why you are using an ad hominem attack ? Do you not understand class jargon? The poster pretty much nailed it, if you are unsure of what jargon means GIYF.

For warrior I have noticed that their heals are a lot worse than other classes, this is probably to offset the extra armour they get. So in the end I think it all balances out.

Paulytnz.7619:

For warrior I have noticed that their heals are a lot worse than other classes, this is probably to offset the extra armour they get. So in the end I think it all balances out.

I would completely disagree.

haviz.1340:

Paulytnz.7619:

For warrior I have noticed that their heals are a lot worse than other classes, this is probably to offset the extra armour they get. So in the end I think it all balances out.

I would completely disagree.

I mean the amount of hp healed not the amount of healing options.

On my alts for example all practically heal 2 3rds of their HP back with their main heal if not more. The Warrior seems to be 1 3rd hp if that.

Paulytnz.7619:

I mean the amount of hp healed not the amount of healing options.

I know what you meant.

killcannon.2576:

Arthos Ravron.3796:

phys.7689:

MrRuin.9740:

Noctis.4753:

Is the survivability of a warrior/guardian wearing full berserker gear as bad as thief/ele (squishy classes) when doing PVE (dungeon and fractals) ?

Your survivability is more reliant on your ability to press ‘V’ than anything else.
I’ve been on dungeons and fractals where the heavies are constantly down and the squishies stay up, and vice-versa. Thief, Guardian, Ele, whatever…..it doesn’t really matter as dodging is more important than class or gear when it comes to surviving in PvE.

incorrect.
warriors/guardians will take less base dmg just from armor
they have more effective HP due to heals, protection
they have abilities which reduce dmg, like dolyak signet endure pain, aegis. they got strong hot like heal signet guardian has a large number of block skills.

the warrior guardian has to dodge less, and more dmg cancels. inspite of peoples belief to the contrary, there is a fairly large difference in what proffessions can do.

Guardians actually are forced to dodge if they have unscathed contender.

Imagine, not one hit must be taken for them to keep this up.

Oh and Doly Signet is nothing compared to Signet of Judgment and Signet of Stamina.

On a side note, I can barely understand your English, or your supposed “knowledge” on the professions you’re talking about.

I thought this post was amusing.

Curious why you are using an ad hominem attack ? Do you not understand class jargon? The poster pretty much nailed it, if you are unsure of what jargon means GIYF.

Of course I know class jargon. It’s just that his knowledge on Guardians and Warriors is lacking considering he’s stating skills and class mechanics which aren’t even the best or even used by most DPS/Burst builds.

And he should try structuring his sentences better. It’s not exactly readable.

Besides, you could accuse me of ad hominem all you want but it’s a fact that stating simple facts that every skilled player should know shows that his “argument” is already failing. Protection? Not all Guards have good access to it. I do admit the amount of blocks Guards have is fairly high, which is really only noticeable if the timing’s right. Although… eles, thieves, mesmers, warriors, and heck almost every class has a powerful mitigation tool used even in Damage builds. Doly Signet? Why waste a utility slot on toughness in a Damage build? Besides, why use that example when Guardians have a signet with 10% flat damage reduction? (Which is still rarely used in Damage builds) Simple, not enough info. I’m casting doubt on the credibility of his claims, because it’s never a good time to make an argument based on exaggerated and weak info.

The context is in a Zerker-oriented and probably a damage-oriented view. His argument would’ve had some power if he hadn’t forgotten that no build has everything. Especially not Damage specs.

Paulytnz.7619:

I mean the amount of hp healed not the amount of healing options.

On my alts for example all practically heal 2 3rds of their HP back with their main heal if not more. The Warrior seems to be 1 3rd hp if that.

Maybe if you’re wearing pvt its only one 3rd. Healing surge is very strong especially considering warriors base hp. Also healing signet is some pretty ridiculous sustain. Compare warrior healing to necro (same base hp as war) and you realise how amazing warrior base heals are.

Arthos Ravron.3796:

killcannon.2576:

Arthos Ravron.3796:

phys.7689:

MrRuin.9740:

Noctis.4753:

Is the survivability of a warrior/guardian wearing full berserker gear as bad as thief/ele (squishy classes) when doing PVE (dungeon and fractals) ?

Your survivability is more reliant on your ability to press ‘V’ than anything else.
I’ve been on dungeons and fractals where the heavies are constantly down and the squishies stay up, and vice-versa. Thief, Guardian, Ele, whatever…..it doesn’t really matter as dodging is more important than class or gear when it comes to surviving in PvE.

incorrect.
warriors/guardians will take less base dmg just from armor
they have more effective HP due to heals, protection
they have abilities which reduce dmg, like dolyak signet endure pain, aegis. they got strong hot like heal signet guardian has a large number of block skills.

the warrior guardian has to dodge less, and more dmg cancels. inspite of peoples belief to the contrary, there is a fairly large difference in what proffessions can do.

Guardians actually are forced to dodge if they have unscathed contender.

Imagine, not one hit must be taken for them to keep this up.

Oh and Doly Signet is nothing compared to Signet of Judgment and Signet of Stamina.

On a side note, I can barely understand your English, or your supposed “knowledge” on the professions you’re talking about.

I thought this post was amusing.

Curious why you are using an ad hominem attack ? Do you not understand class jargon? The poster pretty much nailed it, if you are unsure of what jargon means GIYF.

Of course I know class jargon. It’s just that his knowledge on Guardians and Warriors is lacking considering he’s stating skills and class mechanics which aren’t even the best or even used by most DPS/Burst builds.

And he should try structuring his sentences better. It’s not exactly readable.

Besides, you could accuse me of ad hominem all you want but it’s a fact that stating simple facts that every skilled player should know shows that his “argument” is already failing. Protection? Not all Guards have good access to it. I do admit the amount of blocks Guards have is fairly high, which is really only noticeable if the timing’s right. Although… eles, thieves, mesmers, warriors, and heck almost every class has a powerful mitigation tool used even in Damage builds. Doly Signet? Why waste a utility slot on toughness in a Damage build? Besides, why use that example when Guardians have a signet with 10% flat damage reduction? (Which is still rarely used in Damage builds) Simple, not enough info. I’m casting doubt on the credibility of his claims, because it’s never a good time to make an argument based on exaggerated and weak info.

The context is in a Zerker-oriented and probably a damage-oriented view. His argument would’ve had some power if he hadn’t forgotten that no build has everything. Especially not Damage specs.

I really dont know why you are arguing against me. I was replying to someone in the context of the OP. Which was asking,
are berserker warriors/guardians more survivable than berserker ele/thfs

the poster i was replying to said that only the amount of dodges matter, which is not true.

The poster specifically asked about a certain armor set, when you evaluate the effectiveness of that set, he didnt ask if 1 specific build is as strong as another specific build.
He also is talking about PVE/Fractals, which means if you have been doing it awhile you switch your utilities and weapons based on what you need to do at the time.

Answering the OPs question, yes, warrior/guardian are considerably more survivable than thieves/ele when wearing berserker armor.

As to why that is the case, its because they have more effective health, more blocks, more mitigation IN ADDITION to their dodges, and dodge abilities.

Point is, classes are actually different and excel at different things, even with the same armor. I dont think you are really trying to say that a thief is as survivable in PVE as a warrior or guardian, so i dont even know why you re mad.

in HP alone, level 80 with base vit
10k thief versus 18warrior

in armor
920 ele versus 1211 guardian/warrior

= about 20% difference in damage mitigation .

these two alone = a lot less squishy.

guardian has a class mechanic which provides heal over time, and heal IN ADDITION to their heal skill,
they have 5 weaponskills which heal, 3 utilities, and 6 traits.

yes they are more survivable even while wearing berserker gear.

Seveleniumus.5973:

Survivability is MUCH better, when you look at numbers you’re actually not sacrificing that much of it, relative to damage increase you gain.
However if you’re running with other zerkers, your toughness still may end up being the highest in the group, so you’ll be getting all the aggro and you’ll seem less survivable than thiefs/eles.

Actually even if you wear full zerkers gear and trait defensively you lose a LOT of dps. Damage modifiers make a build not just the gear.

Also the toughness aggro theory is a myth, sure there are some bosses that seem to be drawn to it but others pretty consistently go for whoever is doing the most damage. Aggro can also be entirely random and can switch mid fight.

phys.7689:

in armor
920 ele versus 1211 guardian/warrior

= about 20% difference in damage mitigation .

That’s why it is hard to discuss game mechanics.

Akitten’s not a myth. Toughness is only placed after total damages, so in pugs with non-zerker builds, yes toughness may be important.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro#Gaining_and_losing_aggro

phys.7689:

The poster specifically asked about a certain armor set, when you evaluate the effectiveness of that set, he didnt ask if 1 specific build is as strong as another specific build.
He also is talking about PVE/Fractals, which means if you have been doing it awhile you switch your utilities and weapons based on what you need to do at the time.

Answering the OPs question, yes, warrior/guardian are considerably more survivable than thieves/ele when wearing berserker armor.

As to why that is the case, its because they have more effective health, more blocks, more mitigation IN ADDITION to their dodges, and dodge abilities.

Point is, classes are actually different and excel at different things, even with the same armor. I dont think you are really trying to say that a thief is as survivable in PVE as a warrior or guardian, so i dont even know why you re mad.

in HP alone, level 80 with base vit
10k thief versus 18warrior

in armor
920 ele versus 1211 guardian/warrior

= about 20% difference in damage mitigation .

these two alone = a lot less squishy.

guardian has a class mechanic which provides heal over time, and heal IN ADDITION to their heal skill,
they have 5 weaponskills which heal, 3 utilities, and 6 traits.

yes they are more survivable even while wearing berserker gear.

Base stats say little actually. It’s why Guardian HP is far from it’s EHP. If we strip the utilities and traits a Guard has and leaving his base stats unchanged, do you think he’ll still be as survivable?

I’m arguing the fact that you’ve used bad evidence to prove the survivabiltiy of the professions. It’s maddening because this is the reason why classes get unecessary nerfs and bad rep. Provide skills that the class may often use in those situations and you’ll have a better argument. Simply stating that they have these skills is not enough. Show the situations where they are used, and how often they are used. If by following the same way you presented evidence, I could say eles (squish squish) are survivable because they have a shield that blocks attacks and a 3 second mobile invun. It’s just not… Enough to prove much.

I could argue that, with enough skill, every class becomes near-equal in survivability (yes, even thieves.) but, yeah. Too hard for the average player to reach the point where they have internal clocks for every cooldown on every ele skill. So for all intents and purposes, Warriors and Guards survive better.

I do suggest OP to force himself to continue playing (or start playing) the squishy professions. It helps situational awareness and all that jazz.

Arthos Ravron.3796:

phys.7689:

The poster specifically asked about a certain armor set, when you evaluate the effectiveness of that set, he didnt ask if 1 specific build is as strong as another specific build.
He also is talking about PVE/Fractals, which means if you have been doing it awhile you switch your utilities and weapons based on what you need to do at the time.

Answering the OPs question, yes, warrior/guardian are considerably more survivable than thieves/ele when wearing berserker armor.

As to why that is the case, its because they have more effective health, more blocks, more mitigation IN ADDITION to their dodges, and dodge abilities.

Point is, classes are actually different and excel at different things, even with the same armor. I dont think you are really trying to say that a thief is as survivable in PVE as a warrior or guardian, so i dont even know why you re mad.

in HP alone, level 80 with base vit
10k thief versus 18warrior

in armor
920 ele versus 1211 guardian/warrior

= about 20% difference in damage mitigation .

these two alone = a lot less squishy.

guardian has a class mechanic which provides heal over time, and heal IN ADDITION to their heal skill,
they have 5 weaponskills which heal, 3 utilities, and 6 traits.

yes they are more survivable even while wearing berserker gear.

Base stats say little actually. It’s why Guardian HP is far from it’s EHP. If we strip the utilities and traits a Guard has and leaving his base stats unchanged, do you think he’ll still be as survivable?

I’m arguing the fact that you’ve used bad evidence to prove the survivabiltiy of the professions. It’s maddening because this is the reason why classes get unecessary nerfs and bad rep. Provide skills that the class may often use in those situations and you’ll have a better argument. Simply stating that they have these skills is not enough. Show the situations where they are used, and how often they are used. If by following the same way you presented evidence, I could say eles (squish squish) are survivable because they have a shield that blocks attacks and a 3 second mobile invun. It’s just not… Enough to prove much.

I could argue that, with enough skill, every class becomes near-equal in survivability (yes, even thieves.) but, yeah. Too hard for the average player to reach the point where they have internal clocks for every cooldown on every ele skill. So for all intents and purposes, Warriors and Guards survive better.

I do suggest OP to force himself to continue playing (or start playing) the squishy professions. It helps situational awareness and all that jazz.

you are paranoid of nerfs, i wasnt saying guardian or warrior is OP. im stating the fact that they are more survivable, and yes they were designed that way. They fully expect guardians and warriors to be able to survive a lot easier with more builds.

Yes, a thief will bleed out near instantaneously, while a warrior will take a few seconds depending on the mobs focusing him. It’s surprising how fast a warrior goes down under the right (well, wrong, actually) circumstances in full berserker.