Guild Wars 2

Pie Flavor.1647:

Alex.9567:

Pie Flavor.1647:

Alex.9567:

so many babies on this forum, whaaaaaaaaaaaa zerker ruined the game for me maybe what you need is your bottle so you can go back to sleep on ur blankie. besides isnt it already confirmed zerker will be edited?!

the discussion in these forums usually involve a combination of strawman arguments, ad hominems and reductio ad absurdum arguments like this.

cute, looks whose done philosophy 101

oh look another ad hominem, do you have an actual argument or do you only know how to do this?

actually all the arguments on this have already been made, and are being addressed, its not my fault you or OP weren’t taking notes, thus i feel its fitting to revert to ad hominems, as clearly theres something wrong with your ability to comprehend the argument.

Drakent.9605:

Creates bad player’s :
since player can kill bosses so fast, they have no clue on how to avoid getting hit or aren’t used to the idea of avoiding damage that if they are in a group that cant down a boss under 20 sec they start dropping like fly’s and start blaming there death for the lack of dps not b/c they didn’t use there dodge when standing on the red circle

Shuns Classes:
I have play all classes to lvl 80 and I find none of them to have any dps issue , yes some class will do a bit more then other but no such a huge difference to call the class bad or unplayable but the zerker build works so good with a warrior and guardian far better then any other class because there classes is build to take on some damage before they have to pull back on the defencive making them the class of the month since the point of zerker build is to stand in 1 spot and burn the boss HP

Destroys game mechanics:
MMO RPG are all about learning mobs weakness and strength , always been about what is the best weapon or skill to use on a boss and learn what attack a boss does.
This game has all that but can be completely ignore since zerker build can dps the boss so fast that it doesn’t aloud the boss to do much.

On the contrary using only zerker gear creates good players. I can assure you that most groups won’t kill Lupi in 40 seconds, might stacking, blasting fire fields, buffs, proper party composition, ACTIVE defense (dodges/aegis etc) those are actual player skills, not character skills.

What is creating bad players is newbie players trying to run a dungeon in full zerker when they have no experience and die miserably. Having the zerker gear and proper build does not make you a good player by default.

It’s the wannabe pro-zerkers that are the problem, not the actual skilled zerkers. There is a vast difference between those two. A good zerker is a skilled players who, because his character lacks passive defense, will use lots of active defense skills to succeed, because one hit means getting downed. A bad zerker is a player who only uses the “optimal dps” rotation and then complains that the dps is not enough when the party wipes. One is a skilled player, the other is an idiot.

The key here it to punish the idiot but not the skilled player.

Vargamonth.2047:

BeebleBrocks.4836:

Vargamonth.2047:

BeebleBrocks.4836:

But really, it’d be nice to need a guardian because of its heals and boons and it’s survive-ability skills for the party

But that’s exactly what Guardians are wanted for (well, everything but the heals).
Aegis, protection, reflects and condition removal. If none of these are really needed, speedrun groups probably take a Ranger (or another Ele) over a Guardian.

I’ve never had a guardian in my party who can support a random party of archers/thieves/eles/necros who aren’t zerker….95% of the time the guardian is the first to go down in the pugs I’ve had. It’s hp is really low in zerker/pth, even in ptv but then, in that case, it’s mostly useless. This thread is about zerkers ruining Gw2, and a zerker warrior and mostly guardian, has done that. For a good 100% sure ability to beat a dungeon party in good time, you need to be one of the two or most will kick. A mesmer is probably third best choice, but even I insta kick if they are just unknowing of what their “job” is. Sad to admit it. So far what I’ve learnt in pugs, if you can’t down a boss fast enough to keep up with the zerkers CD’s, you’re out cause they start dying. The guard as a zerker has very high dmg and can support the party at the same time as they deal it. All in one class, so I don’t need your slow dps zerker ranger or necro in my party cause a warrior and guard do it better. Class discrimination and unbalance.

That’s just not true.
For completing a dungeon in a good time with a PUG you probably want a warrior (maybe two so they’re not forced to fill their bar with banners) and a single guardian, which makes things easier. Anything above this is pretty much useless, since they can’t bring any additional support nor they’re the best options for damage.
If people keep asking for warriors and guardians is just because for these classes it’s easier to deal damage while surviving and most players using berserker (or not) are actually terrible.

more than 1 guardian useless, what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwIV-DzgNVg

and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lodFqmxAaQY

most pug parties take longer than that duo. most people who do these duneons, want in and out. and to meet that standard the kicking ensues, no one wants your low dps/“so called tanky classes” in the party. taking longer ends up meaning someone in your party will get wrecked, sometimes not, but i can’t say I haven’t gone through a non zerker party where someone didn’t die cause they were constantly domed for ranging and moving around. you only have so many heals and dodges and if you’re high hp and low everything else, your health slowly deteriorates and you’re done and that especially goes for the people who are all over the place. there is little support in pugs cause half either range and half melee. sometimes the guard will be at 1200 while your melees are at 120. i think it’s just more of a fact zerker heavies are more desired than any other class and most people aren’t wanting to spend an hour+ in a dungeon.

BeebleBrocks.4836:

more than 1 guardian useless, what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwIV-DzgNVg

and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lodFqmxAaQY

most pug parties take longer than that duo. most people who do these duneons, want in and out. and to meet that standard the kicking ensues, no one wants your low dps/“so called tanky classes” in the party. taking longer ends up meaning someone in your party will get wrecked, sometimes not, but i can’t say I haven’t gone through a non zerker party where someone didn’t die cause they were constantly domed for ranging and moving around. you only have so many heals and dodges and if you’re high hp and low everything else, your health slowly deteriorates and you’re done and that especially goes for the people who are all over the place. there is little support in pugs cause half either range and half melee. sometimes the guard will be at 1200 while your melees are at 120. i think it’s just more of a fact zerker heavies are more desired than any other class and most people aren’t wanting to spend an hour+ in a dungeon.

And 0-guard-full-team killed lupi in 7s and 0-guard-duo killed him in ~50s. So those vids shows rather average times.

haviz.1340:

BeebleBrocks.4836:

more than 1 guardian useless, what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwIV-DzgNVg

and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lodFqmxAaQY

most pug parties take longer than that duo. most people who do these duneons, want in and out. and to meet that standard the kicking ensues, no one wants your low dps/“so called tanky classes” in the party. taking longer ends up meaning someone in your party will get wrecked, sometimes not, but i can’t say I haven’t gone through a non zerker party where someone didn’t die cause they were constantly domed for ranging and moving around. you only have so many heals and dodges and if you’re high hp and low everything else, your health slowly deteriorates and you’re done and that especially goes for the people who are all over the place. there is little support in pugs cause half either range and half melee. sometimes the guard will be at 1200 while your melees are at 120. i think it’s just more of a fact zerker heavies are more desired than any other class and most people aren’t wanting to spend an hour+ in a dungeon.

And 0-guard-full-team killed lupi in 7s and 0-guard-duo killed him in ~50s. So those vids shows rather average times.

These aren’t average times for your average pugs. Hence when guildies/friends do these dungeons without their mates, they kick everyone till they get what’s necessary to meet or come close to their desired kill times. And then in the end, people who aren’t zerkers or have good mates to do these kind of runs have to pay for paths they aren’t “required” for, to do. Those 7s kill videos or the 30s ranger kill videos are set up to beat kill times, they aren’t parties in the lfg tool kicking everyone who comes by till they manage 5 rangers with axes and swords. That’d take hours. Zerkers kill this game along with heavies abilities to deal dmg and have high survive-ability still. Those videos were examples as to what a good party expects of their warriors and guardians, hence their top priority in parties over other zerker classes or randoms who aren’t zerker.

Aeolus.3615:

Zerker gear + dungeon bug exploits.

Without this 2 requirements it is really hard to get a “pug” team to make dungeons, player gona be flamed and droped from party.

I hate how people spread this lie.

I pug dungeons all the time (when my friends aren’t on), and I only VERY OCCASIONALLY run into one of these jerks, who I then bid good day, and start my own party.

Also, I don’t care if people join my party with 400 AP as long as they are willing to listen and learn.

I’ve been in plenty of groups who obviously aren’t using full zerker. Do I complain? No, because we get the dungeon done anyway. Does anyone else in the party complain? No, because we finished the dungeon anyway.

These “elitist scrub jerk bullies” are VERY FEW AND FAR BETWEEN so stop using it as some poor excuse for some illogical reason. Unless you play on EU and it is different there, in NA I very rarely run into a jerk.

Today was the first time in MONTHS I encountered a jerk, who asked for “FULL ZERK PING GEAR”.

I pinged my ascended zerk+scholar armour, 3 legendaries, full zerk ascended trinkets and food buffs, just to shove it down that guys face.

Just because I pinged bolt, you know what he says? “Don’t use bolt, use an axe, swords are terrible.” I said “have fun doing the dungeon with no one, good bye.”

Started my own party, aced the dungeon, no scrubby jerks were in it.

BeebleBrocks.4836:

Those videos were examples as to what a good party expects of their warriors and guardians, hence their top priority in parties over other zerker classes or randoms who aren’t zerker.

You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about, because a group that considers themselves ‘super elite’, and going for the fastest time possible, will only use 1 warrior for banners, and MAYBE a guardian. Otherwise it is any combination of Mesmers/Eles/Thieves in the rest of the spots.

Warrior and guardian do not do the most damage.

Warrior and guardian CAN support, but these groups don’t need what they offer. And outside of banners they both lack utility for speed kills. Where ele can give everyone 25 might, deal a truck tonne of damage with lightning hammer or FGS, and able to mass blind if needed, for example

Mesmer/Ele/Thieves are the ones carrying with their support, utilities and damage. Warrior is just there for banners. And guardian for stability in certain dungeons where blind won’t cut it.

That being said, I’m not in those kind of groups regularly, but every so often a friend invites me along with their “hardcore” dungeon guildies, and I’ve seen how they operate. It is NOTHING like a pug run.

The more you know.

Those videos and teams DO NOT, in any way, impact the rest of the player base and how they do dungeons in pug runs.

The reason war/guardian is prevalent in pug groups is because of the high survivability, nothing more, meaning a pug group doesn’t have to worry so much about what each person they don’t know is doing.

Of course, there are people like me, who don’t care who joins, as long as they know what they are doing, or are willing to speak up and learn.

BeebleBrocks.4836:

These aren’t average times for your average pugs. Hence when guildies/friends do these dungeons without their mates, they kick everyone till they get what’s necessary to meet or come close to their desired kill times. And then in the end, people who aren’t zerkers or have good mates to do these kind of runs have to pay for paths they aren’t “required” for, to do. Those 7s kill videos or the 30s ranger kill videos are set up to beat kill times, they aren’t parties in the lfg tool kicking everyone who comes by till they manage 5 rangers with axes and swords. That’d take hours. Zerkers kill this game along with heavies abilities to deal dmg and have high survive-ability still. Those videos were examples as to what a good party expects of their warriors and guardians, hence their top priority in parties over other zerker classes or randoms who aren’t zerker.

How do zerkers kill this game? I can set up a party at gw2lfg and it fills in seconds. Meanwhile, zerker elitists wait minutes until they can get their wanted gear sets basically wasting time. I can play the game while they are spend their valuable time doing nothing.

Heavies parties are mostly pugs problem. Any decent pve guild stopped using them long time ago.

Realist.5812:

I hate how people spread this lie.

I pug dungeons all the time (when my friends aren’t on), and I only VERY OCCASIONALLY run into one of these jerks, who I then bid good day, and start my own party.

Also, I don’t care if people join my party with 400 AP as long as they are willing to listen and learn.

I’ve been in plenty of groups who obviously aren’t using full zerker. Do I complain? No, because we get the dungeon done anyway. Does anyone else in the party complain? No, because we finished the dungeon anyway.

These “elitist scrub jerk bullies” are VERY FEW AND FAR BETWEEN so stop using it as some poor excuse for some illogical reason. Unless you play on EU and it is different there, in NA I very rarely run into a jerk.

Today was the first time in MONTHS I encountered a jerk, who asked for “FULL ZERK PING GEAR”.

I pinged my ascended zerk+scholar armour, 3 legendaries, full zerk ascended trinkets and food buffs, just to shove it down that guys face.

Just because I pinged bolt, you know what he says? “Don’t use bolt, use an axe, swords are terrible.” I said “have fun doing the dungeon with no one, good bye.”

Started my own party, aced the dungeon, no scrubby jerks were in it.

Finally someone who understands it!

BeebleBrocks.4836:

haviz.1340:

BeebleBrocks.4836:

more than 1 guardian useless, what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwIV-DzgNVg

and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lodFqmxAaQY

most pug parties take longer than that duo. most people who do these duneons, want in and out. and to meet that standard the kicking ensues, no one wants your low dps/“so called tanky classes” in the party. taking longer ends up meaning someone in your party will get wrecked, sometimes not, but i can’t say I haven’t gone through a non zerker party where someone didn’t die cause they were constantly domed for ranging and moving around. you only have so many heals and dodges and if you’re high hp and low everything else, your health slowly deteriorates and you’re done and that especially goes for the people who are all over the place. there is little support in pugs cause half either range and half melee. sometimes the guard will be at 1200 while your melees are at 120. i think it’s just more of a fact zerker heavies are more desired than any other class and most people aren’t wanting to spend an hour+ in a dungeon.

And 0-guard-full-team killed lupi in 7s and 0-guard-duo killed him in ~50s. So those vids shows rather average times.

These aren’t average times for your average pugs. Hence when guildies/friends do these dungeons without their mates, they kick everyone till they get what’s necessary to meet or come close to their desired kill times. And then in the end, people who aren’t zerkers or have good mates to do these kind of runs have to pay for paths they aren’t “required” for, to do. Those 7s kill videos or the 30s ranger kill videos are set up to beat kill times, they aren’t parties in the lfg tool kicking everyone who comes by till they manage 5 rangers with axes and swords. That’d take hours. Zerkers kill this game along with heavies abilities to deal dmg and have high survive-ability still. Those videos were examples as to what a good party expects of their warriors and guardians, hence their top priority in parties over other zerker classes or randoms who aren’t zerker.

How’s about learn to solo so you don’t have to kick people? The irony is every classes can solo, or at least duo, Lupi. Any pugs that I came across who asked for zerker war/mes/guard only are simply looking for being carried.

Honestly, I find this topic amusing, because ever since I saw that cleric run where they unbound dodge, I’m convinced cleric gear has ruined the game.

BeebleBrocks.4836:

These aren’t average times for your average pugs. Hence when guildies/friends do these dungeons without their mates, they kick everyone till they get what’s necessary to meet or come close to their desired kill times. And then in the end, people who aren’t zerkers or have good mates to do these kind of runs have to pay for paths they aren’t “required” for, to do.

First of all, its a MMO not a single player RPG (just realize that i wrote that quite often recently), this game is base around you playing with other player and forming Guild. If your current guild don’t help you, maybe you need to find a guild that fit you better. And for those who are doing dungeon with friends/guildies and pugs for the fill up the group (i’m one of those btw). Not all of them kick until they get the right profession. And even if they do, its their right, they don’t HAVE to play with you if they don’t want. You can find that stupid, but they can do it. Some of them just don’t get the game so they want heavies and can’t understand that a ranger can do a decent job (even if it rare because of how limited the ranger is). Others just don’t want to have an hard time that day.

BeebleBrocks.4836:

Zerkers kill this game along with heavies abilities to deal dmg and have high survive-ability still. Those videos were examples as to what a good party expects of their warriors and guardians, hence their top priority in parties over other zerker classes or randoms who aren’t zerker.

First of all. Heavies DON’T HAVE HIGHER SURVIABIILTY OR HIGHER DAMAGE. The Thief have higher single target Dmg and the Ele have higher AoE and Single target damage. Warrior have higher basic defensives stats and no active defense. Its easier to survive because you only have to dodge once in a while. The rest is taking care of by your stats, while on the other end an Ele, Thief and Necro and some of the highest survivability, but you need to be good to achieve that.

Warrior and Guardian are easy way to do decent job in the game. They are constant in their Damage and Surviability, compare to other profession that you need to master before being able to do high damage and stay alive. This is the kind of lie that only prove that you don’t know the game well enough.

Warrior and Guardian are top priorities because the average pugs can do a decent jobs on them, while other profession need more skills if you don’t want to be death on the ground half the time. In a PuG groups, you don’t know the skill of a random player so you want him to be heavies so you have higher chance of success.

And btw, Zerker full DPS making the majority of the player base is totally untrue. They make a minority of the players. I do full DPS run with my guildmates and its easy to see when 1, 2 or 3 people in the party have some defensives stats (on their armor or trait). And tbh, i saw 2 full DPS pug groups in the last 1 and a half year (except when i use to do CoF path 1 farm) .

Realist.5812:

Aeolus.3615:

Zerker gear + dungeon bug exploits.

Without this 2 requirements it is really hard to get a “pug” team to make dungeons, player gona be flamed and droped from party.

I hate how people spread this lie.

I pug dungeons all the time (when my friends aren’t on), and I only VERY OCCASIONALLY run into one of these jerks, who I then bid good day, and start my own party.
(…)
These “elitist scrub jerk bullies” are VERY FEW AND FAR BETWEEN so stop using it as some poor excuse for some illogical reason. Unless you play on EU and it is different there, in NA I very rarely run into a jerk.

Today was the first time in MONTHS I encountered a jerk, who asked for “FULL ZERK PING GEAR”.

I pinged my ascended zerk+scholar armour, 3 legendaries, full zerk ascended trinkets and food buffs, just to shove it down that guys face.
.

Guess im trying again today, trying to do AC since january, not very lucky on pugs and my knowledge about dungeons is almost none, only did 2 or 3 dungeons since game release.

Aeolus.3615:

Guess im trying again today, trying to do AC since january, not very lucky on pugs and my knowledge about dungeons is almost none, only did 2 or 3 dungeons since game release.

Try the dungeon mentor : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Mentors/page/10

If you ask, they will invite you to the guild and you will be able to ask people to make the path with you and explain how to do it.

You can also try to get a good little guild that will help you.

You can also make a LFG with the description : First time in the dungeon, need help or something like that. If you post that in the prime time of your server (this will never fill when everybody is sleeping), it should fill up, or at least get 1 or 2 people to help you.

Kalarchis.8635:

Please no buff on enemy HP, that would only encourage zerker even more. Some bosses (like Golem Mk II and Caledon wurm) already have way too much HP when upscaled.

Just a minor detail. World bosses, that are count as structures, such as Behe, Fire ele, Caledon wurm, Shatterer, Teq, Golem and Claw can’t be critted, thus zerker is useless or outright non-optimal.
How about 3 headed wurm? I’ve never done it sadly.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Honestly, I find this topic amusing, because ever since I saw that cleric run where they unbound dodge, I’m convinced cleric gear has ruined the game.

And also this. ^^^

BeebleBrocks.4836:

more than 1 guardian useless, what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwIV-DzgNVg

and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lodFqmxAaQY

Every class can solo Lupicus, so it’s obvious that every class can Duo or easily 5-man it.
Those videos don’t really prove anything.

What do Guardians provide on a Lupicus fight?
1. Aegis for the kicks.
One single guardian can chain up to three Aegis, and if the party DPS is somehow decent, there’s no need for more during Phase 1.
2. Reflects.
Mesmer feedback is way more reliable in order to skip Phase 2 (or even the whole fight if using the Ember thing). WoR can still be useful for the Phase 3 mass projectile move, but now again, one single Guardian is enough for this.
3. Stability
For domes during Phase 3, which won’t even take place for most fights.

You don’t need more than a single Guardian in any group. One is enough to provide support and other classes are better in terms of raw damage.

PUGs ask for heavys because they survive easier.
Once you get your Guardian and your Warrior banners, Eles would be better choices for damage; it’s just that it’s harder to survive as a LH zerker Ele than as a Guardian or a Warrior. PUG players don’t want to take risks and just chose a suboptimal but safer team composition (exactly the same that many PVT and/or ranged players do).

Drakent.9605:

Ok I know I am going to get a lot of hate respond from this topic but some 1 has to call it out and so I will. Also sorry for any bad spelling or bad grammar, English Is my second language

As every player know that now on days doing pve dungeon every one demands for a zerker class. Reason for this is because it aloud player’s to put so much damage that bosses get kill in just a matter of seconds

So how is this ruined the game?

What you meant was that berserker’s gear ruins PvE. Regardless, it’s always been that way in all mmorpg in PvE. DPS will almost always be the dominating factor in that area. I don’t mind having condition damage players on my team when running dungeons but most of the time unfortunately they’re just bad players who dies over and over and over again. I’ve had amazing necros/elementalists/engineers with condition builds before on the team but chances are low when running into them. Overall, as long as condition damage works the way it does now, I don’t think anything’s going to change in terms of favoring higher dps.

Its quite wrong and shortsighted saying zerker ruins pve.

BAD AI + 1HKO ruins pve…..

there’s bad zerk
there’s anti-zerk
and then there’s efficiently running zerk

the last one is hard to find…
makes running dungeons with limited play time very stressful

go ahead and remove extra critical damage, critical chance, power,
and condition damage from the game completely
they do nothing for the game but cause people to rage right?

When I started playing, I planned to gear my characters according to class specialization. Finding Givers armor would work well for how I pictured my Guardian. Berserker would work well on my Pirate thief (That and they are suppose to have a thing for Rubies).

Some of these new bosses are more complex than throwing all DPS tanks at them.
When the Condition Reflect was on the Assault Knights, we did far less damage, than when it was under Condition Crash.
The 5 bosses on the Marionette, the Jungle Worm, and Tequatl.

Berserker is going to become more of a strategic choice than default for many players because the game is moving away from strict DPS in new content. It’s just sad that people have given in to pressure when gearing up.
It just gives the devs something to aim for when creating content or nerfing"balancing" the game.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Honestly, I find this topic amusing, because ever since I saw that cleric run where they unbound dodge, I’m convinced cleric gear has ruined the game.

Why do the words I think come out of your mouth? :o

DigitalKirin.9714:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Honestly, I find this topic amusing, because ever since I saw that cleric run where they unbound dodge, I’m convinced cleric gear has ruined the game.

Why do the words I think come out of your mouth? :o

Soul mates, obviously. ^.^

:P

Btw my zerk build improved the game for me. My favorite dungeon stopped being so difficult, and I can now role play there whenever I want.

Kumu Honua.2751:

The actual problem is that they game rewards bad play. If you die at an event because you fail to dodge things EVERY SINGLE TIME you are still rewarded the same as someone who performed flawlessly.

What they need is a sliding scale of reward.

As I suggested in another post in regards to the knights. Give players that get participation 1 chest.

Players that avoid getting hit by the boss mechanics get 3 bonus chests.

Players that get hit only once get 2 bonus chests.

Players that get hit 2-3 times get 1 bonus chest.

Players that get hit more get no bonus chest.

Now players are rewarded for skillful play.

That’s a load of kitten. I don’t recall buying “Dodge Wars 2”. As if Dodging is the only metric of “skillful” play??? Also, dodging doesn’t get anything done!!! So some leecher runs around dodging the whole fight while not outputting any damage. Great, more leeching and making the rest of us have to do even more! GG

haviz.1340:

IndigoSundown.5419:

• I had a 28K health, 3000 Armor necro die to one attack to the Champion Risen Knight in Malchor’s — right after it was changed from a Vet. I was in one of those tight spaces under the ruins mining the rich mithril node and it did its chain lava font thing. Thinking it was a vet, I kept right on mining. Since it was a tight space, all of the fonts landed in the same place. Game over, man.
• Then there’s the pink Champion Risen Gorilla at Lyssa, before the scaling issue was fixed. It’s Ground Pound was nasty if you were out of dodge from avoiding the catapults.

To be fair, though, those are maintained effects, so I’m not sure either qualifies for a one-shot — even though it was one ability happening in a perfect storm.

I was expecting bosses from instances. I don’t think we saw anyone claiming that zerker is a problem in the open world? Especially when they are upscaled. Scaling is a bit broken but apparently anet expects a lot of people to fight a gorilla because there are a lot of people nearby. Instead of modifying bosses aoe cap they just increase their damage and health. But that’s the problem with zergs not zerk.

Perhaps my point was too subtle. If the only bosses I could think of were a poorly scaled herd event champion and a perfect storm re placement of a chain AoE that’s not supposed to land in the same spot, that would tend to make the point that one-shots are rather rare, wouldn’kitten

Edit: As to instance only, changing berserker would affect persistent world and WvW play as well as dungeons, so I think those parts of the game are fair play — unless you want the thread to be moved to the dungeon sub-forum.

Zerker build has not ruined the game. It’s the game design that allows one build to be the most efficient in all dungeons.

Don’t hate the player, hate the game

Gele.2048:

zerker is not the problem not having holy trinity in the game IS the problem Geting ONE shoot from boss IS problem

From my own experience, one shotting is only a problem if you’re using low armour. Its something I’ve noticed improving as I’ve started to better my armour.

Also certain classes ele/theif can be squishy and require dodging/blocks to survive. But not all class should be able to tank. (as far as ‘tanking’ goes in this game).

Not having trinity is a breath of fresh air. And yes it’s difficult to balance, but anet is working on that, ..though it is sort of a trial and error thing. Give time to see what works and what doesnt.

You’re always going to have those people that abuse the game mechanics, stacks and whatever.

Your ‘fixes’ wont actually do much. Anets fixes havent really been fixing it either.

Really a boss’s AOE should ignore the 5 player cap that players have (It’s fine to keep that limit on players), all damage should be buffed and then the amount that toughness reduces the damage should be buffed as well(As well as having a base level buff so toughness will make it so I can take more than 3 shots as opposed to 1 from a boss).

That will eliminate stacking and flush out the bad players that can’t dodge. The good players that can dodge effectively shouldn’t be punished because of the bad players.

All AOEs should become unblockable, so the only defense is to not be standing in them, as long as they arnt giant circles. Anet seems to like to balance reaction times around some sort of passive speed boosts that most classes have but as a main mesmer, I do not have such a thing and it’s unreasonable to ask me to give up my weapon swap for a speed boost.

That should solve the immediate problem of stacking and bad players counting on the stack to save them.

Heck maybe even give a player 15ish seconds after they’re defeated and if they no one starts reviving them, it instantly makes them waypoint to their nearest uncontested waypoint.

Finally PvP and PvE should be split, changes to one shouldn’t affect the other as changes to PvP can break PvE or the other way around.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

You’re always going to have those people that abuse the game mechanics, stacks and whatever.

Your ‘fixes’ wont actually do much. Anets fixes havent really been fixing it either.

Really a boss’s AOE should ignore the 5 player cap that players have (It’s fine to keep that limit on players), all damage should be buffed and then the amount that toughness reduces the damage should be buffed as well(As well as having a base level buff so toughness will make it so I can take more than 3 shots as opposed to 1 from a boss).

That will eliminate stacking and flush out the bad players that can’t dodge. The good players that can dodge effectively shouldn’t be punished because of the bad players.

All AOEs should become unblockable, so the only defense is to not be standing in them, as long as they arnt giant circles. Anet seems to like to balance reaction times around some sort of passive speed boosts that most classes have but as a main mesmer, I do not have such a thing and it’s unreasonable to ask me to give up my weapon swap for a speed boost.

That should solve the immediate problem of stacking and bad players counting on the stack to save them.

Heck maybe even give a player 15ish seconds after they’re defeated and if they no one starts reviving them, it instantly makes them waypoint to their nearest uncontested waypoint.

Finally PvP and PvE should be split, changes to one shouldn’t affect the other as changes to PvP can break PvE or the other way around.

Stacking saves nobody in dungeons.. This post is horrendous.

New players fail because they think the same as you do.

Drakent.9605:

So how is this ruined the game?

That’s not why Zerker is an issue, Zerker is a symptom not the affliction. The affliction is simplistic AI, boss mechanics that revolve around one-shots, and lack of control mechanics.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

You’re always going to have those people that abuse the game mechanics, stacks and whatever.

Your ‘fixes’ wont actually do much. Anets fixes havent really been fixing it either.

Really a boss’s AOE should ignore the 5 player cap that players have (It’s fine to keep that limit on players), all damage should be buffed and then the amount that toughness reduces the damage should be buffed as well(As well as having a base level buff so toughness will make it so I can take more than 3 shots as opposed to 1 from a boss).

That will eliminate stacking and flush out the bad players that can’t dodge. The good players that can dodge effectively shouldn’t be punished because of the bad players.

All AOEs should become unblockable, so the only defense is to not be standing in them, as long as they arnt giant circles. Anet seems to like to balance reaction times around some sort of passive speed boosts that most classes have but as a main mesmer, I do not have such a thing and it’s unreasonable to ask me to give up my weapon swap for a speed boost.

That should solve the immediate problem of stacking and bad players counting on the stack to save them.

Heck maybe even give a player 15ish seconds after they’re defeated and if they no one starts reviving them, it instantly makes them waypoint to their nearest uncontested waypoint.

Finally PvP and PvE should be split, changes to one shouldn’t affect the other as changes to PvP can break PvE or the other way around.

I think my eye cancer just skipped straight to terminal.

Lindbur.2537:

I think my eye cancer just skipped straight to terminal.

Hurry, stack and you’ll be saved from the eye cancer!

The main problems are Unshakable and enemy skills.

Because of Unshakable, CCs are mostly pointless.

What we really, REALLY need is an autobalance system to replace it. Which would also work to help many issues across the entire game.

What is an autobalance system?

Is a system that kicks in to cap excesses, that works for both players and NPCs.

With an autobalance system, you can make anti-CC measures kick in when CCs are used too much and too often, without having to rebalance all skills in the entire game to prevent excessive CC spam. CC spam would become pointless, and people would just move away from it. Make an entire team of hammer warriors to go around CCing in PvP, and if all of them go for the same target at the same time and spam CCs in a really short time, they will often see enemies getting stacks of of an effect that gives them accumulative CC resistance. Too many stacks, and they get a free stun break and a short CC immunity. The save would happen for NPCs, veterans, elites, legendaries champions and epic bosses, although normal enemies would have a reduced effect, and veterans, elites, champions, legendaries and epics a greater effect, the higher their NPC rank.

Same can be done with berserker excess. How do you autobalance to prevent excessive focus on DPS?
You add DPS caps on target. A player unable of losing more hand 33% health per second except by the strongest and clearly telegraphed one-hit kill boss attacks. A champion unable to lose more than 1.5% health per second, and so on. Too many people on a target focused too much on DPS, and they’ll get 0 damage, effectively wasting skills, so their team should adapt and get a bit more of support and control in their build not to waste skills.

With autobalance in place, players would have to find perfect balances between skills and stats to maximize efficiency, instead just focus on DPS, as just DPS, or too many CC would be simply a waste.

The other issue are skills. Too many NPCs have few skills, and many of them are poor or simple. There’s too many enemies that just stand still and deal simple damage, or have just a couple of skills among their ranks. A troll is always a troll and acts the same way, there’s no “sneaky cave trolls” that will try to hide attack from the shadow or “ruthless cave trolls” being more tanky and direct or “wise cave trolls” trying to give support. You met one cave troll, you met them all. With grawls you’ll have a bit of that, and with many armies of intelligent enemies, but it’s not very noticeable.
And inside dungeons and other instances, they are equally boring and repetitive skills, just with unreasonably high damage.

The best enemy skills in the game right now are among Scarlet’s armies. The aetherblades focus on control, the toxic alliance in damage, and the molten alliance in support, but all of them have a bit of everything. And they have skills you have to learn to reduce their effectiveness. “Push here” “Jump this”, “Interrupt that”.

Autobalance + interesting and varied skills = Fun combat.

Ethics.4519:

Lindbur.2537:

I think my eye cancer just skipped straight to terminal.

Hurry, stack and you’ll be saved from the eye cancer!

Quickly show me your 20 player zerg in a dungeon.

Yes dungeons are different than regular PvE, and need to be balanced differently but generally every player in a dungeon has an idea of what they’re doing. Fix the main PvE zerging mentality and you fix the dungeons. Besides that at some points in some dungeons the number of mobs are arguably way too kittening many (Like 4 out of all the dungeons), nothing is wrong with most of them; it’s all the players.

If you don’t like my idea for a solution, and the current system is broken, by all means give me your better idea.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

Yes dungeons are different than regular PvE, and need to be balanced differently but generally every player in a dungeon has an idea of what they’re doing. Fix the main PvE zerging mentality and you fix the dungeons. Besides that at some points in some dungeons the number of mobs are arguably way too kittening many (Like 4 out of all the dungeons), nothing is wrong with most of them; it’s all the players.

First of all, although you state that dungeon PvE is different from regular PvE, you pretty much ate your words when you said fixing zerging would fix dungeons. This doesn’t even make sense, you explicitly say one thing, but imply the opposite. You also state that every players in dungeons have an idea of what they’re doing. Using this statement, can you explain why every single day I get miserable failures in my pug groups that clearly do not have any idea of what they are doing? I find it very hard to take your argument seriously when it’s based on unsupported assumptions instead of facts.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

If you don’t like my idea for a solution, and the current system is broken, by all means give me your better idea.

How do I fix what isn’t broken? I’ll give you a better idea all right: DON’T FIX WHAT ISN’T BROKEN.

And before anyone says to prevent player models from clipping into each other, would you enjoy it if I got 8 other people to come and box you in at a waypoint you just appeared at?

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

Ethics.4519:

Lindbur.2537:

I think my eye cancer just skipped straight to terminal.

Hurry, stack and you’ll be saved from the eye cancer!

Quickly show me your 20 player zerg in a dungeon.

Yes dungeons are different than regular PvE, and need to be balanced differently but generally every player in a dungeon has an idea of what they’re doing. Fix the main PvE zerging mentality and you fix the dungeons. Besides that at some points in some dungeons the number of mobs are arguably way too kittening many (Like 4 out of all the dungeons), nothing is wrong with most of them; it’s all the players.

If you don’t like my idea for a solution, and the current system is broken, by all means give me your better idea.

There have been many other suggestions presented, much better than yours, yet they get overlooked because the developers are super busy tweeting, writing short stories, making videos, and “looking into” things.

MithranArkanere.8957:

The main problems are Unshakable and enemy skills.

Because of Unshakable, CCs are mostly pointless.

I use CCs all the time, they’re fine.

What we really, REALLY need is an autobalance system to replace it. Which would also work to help many issues across the entire game.

What is an autobalance system?

Is a system that kicks in to cap excesses, that works for both players and NPCs.

With an autobalance system, you can make anti-CC measures kick in when CCs are used too much and too often, without having to rebalance all skills in the entire game to prevent excessive CC spam. CC spam would become pointless, and people would just move away from it. Make an entire team of hammer warriors to go around CCing in PvP, and if all of them go for the same target at the same time and spam CCs in a really short time, they will often see enemies getting stacks of of an effect that gives them accumulative CC resistance. Too many stacks, and they get a free stun break and a short CC immunity. The save would happen for NPCs, veterans, elites, legendaries champions and epic bosses, although normal enemies would have a reduced effect, and veterans, elites, champions, legendaries and epics a greater effect, the higher their NPC rank.

Same can be done with berserker excess. How do you autobalance to prevent excessive focus on DPS?
You add DPS caps on target. A player unable of losing more hand 33% health per second except by the strongest and clearly telegraphed one-hit kill boss attacks. A champion unable to lose more than 1.5% health per second, and so on. Too many people on a target focused too much on DPS, and they’ll get 0 damage, effectively wasting skills, so their team should adapt and get a bit more of support and control in their build not to waste skills.

With autobalance in place, players would have to find perfect balances between skills and stats to maximize efficiency, instead just focus on DPS, as just DPS, or too many CC would be simply a waste.

The other issue are skills. Too many NPCs have few skills, and many of them are poor or simple. There’s too many enemies that just stand still and deal simple damage, or have just a couple of skills among their ranks. A troll is always a troll and acts the same way, there’s no “sneaky cave trolls” that will try to hide attack from the shadow or “ruthless cave trolls” being more tanky and direct or “wise cave trolls” trying to give support. You met one cave troll, you met them all. With grawls you’ll have a bit of that, and with many armies of intelligent enemies, but it’s not very noticeable.
And inside dungeons and other instances, they are equally boring and repetitive skills, just with unreasonably high damage.

The best enemy skills in the game right now are among Scarlet’s armies. The aetherblades focus on control, the toxic alliance in damage, and the molten alliance in support, but all of them have a bit of everything. And they have skills you have to learn to reduce their effectiveness. “Push here” “Jump this”, “Interrupt that”.

Autobalance + interesting and varied skills = Fun combat.

People already complain about condition limits and you want to limit everything. Maybe limit toughness, healing, vitality and so on? Or maybe just remove stats?

Lindbur.2537:

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

Yes dungeons are different than regular PvE, and need to be balanced differently but generally every player in a dungeon has an idea of what they’re doing. Fix the main PvE zerging mentality and you fix the dungeons. Besides that at some points in some dungeons the number of mobs are arguably way too kittening many (Like 4 out of all the dungeons), nothing is wrong with most of them; it’s all the players.

First of all, although you state that dungeon PvE is different from regular PvE, you pretty much ate your words when you said fixing zerging would fix dungeons. This doesn’t even make sense, you explicitly say one thing, but imply the opposite. You also state that every players in dungeons have an idea of what they’re doing. Using this statement, can you explain why every single day I get miserable failures in my pug groups that clearly do not have any idea of what they are doing? I find it very hard to take your argument seriously when it’s based on unsupported assumptions instead of facts.

I said that nothing is wrong with the dungeon itself, it’s the players and their mentality on how they’re playing the game. If you change that, then suddenly the dungeons work properly.

but generally every player in a dungeon has an idea of what they’re doing.

You see that word right there that you cut out? That changes what the entire sentence means. Instead of the sentence meaning every single player out there knows exactly what they’re doing and you’re the problem; now it means usually you get good players and dungeons go fine but sometimes you get people that mess up and that’s what we need to fix.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

I said that nothing is wrong with the dungeon itself, it’s the players and their mentality on how they’re playing the game. If you change that, then suddenly the dungeons work properly.

I agree that nothing is wrong with the dungeons in the context you’re speaking from. What I don’t agree with is how you want to tackle it, and the premise from which you are doing so.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

but generally every player in a dungeon has an idea of what they’re doing.

You see that word right there that you cut out? That changes what the entire sentence means. Instead of the sentence meaning every single player out there knows exactly what they’re doing and you’re the problem; now it means usually you get good players and dungeons go fine but sometimes you get people that mess up and that’s what we need to fix.

Semantics, eh? Re-read your own sentence. I’ll give you this alternative sentence to compare.

most players in dungeons have an idea of what they’re doing.

There, much easier to interpret now, eh?

I guess my question is how do you think you are the first person to post about this? This sort of post has been around since the first thief equipped his first dagger and landed the first backstab on an similar zerk spec.

Zerker did NOT ruin the game, the crybabies ruined it for themselves.

The 40 sec Lupi kills referenced above are usually done by an organized group of very good players, not the general public. These people spend hours practicing to get there, there is dedication and skill involved, their gear is only a tool.

Being less than a meta build has never been a problem for me or my boyfriend when we use the lfg tool. We use it EVERYDAY for dungeons; AC & TA for me and Arah for him. If you join a group and don’t meet the requirements stated, you should be kicked for not reading. Lesson here: LEARN TO READ.

I find that most players are pretty flexible as long as you are honest. If I join a group that says “Exp preferred” and I have only done it a couple of times and admit to it, they usually don’t kick. In fact, they take the time to type instructions.

Also, the groups with little or no requirements usually get filled so quickly, there isn’t time to click “join” which is why it seems like everyone is looking for Zerker Heavies.

haviz.1340:

MithranArkanere.8957:

The main problems are Unshakable and enemy skills.

Because of Unshakable, CCs are mostly pointless.

I use CCs all the time, they’re fine.

No, they are not. A group of players going for a champion won’t use CCs effectively.

They’ll go for DPS. CC is pointless against them because they will get Defiance all the time.

Try to time your skills to interrupt the champion, it won’t work, because someone else will definitely spam CCs, and they will get Defiance.

MithranArkanere.8957:

haviz.1340:

MithranArkanere.8957:

The main problems are Unshakable and enemy skills.

Because of Unshakable, CCs are mostly pointless.

I use CCs all the time, they’re fine.

No, they are not. A group of players going for a champion won’t use CCs effectively.

They’ll go for DPS. CC is pointless against them because they will get Defiance all the time.

Try to time your skills to interrupt the champion, it won’t work, because someone else will definitely spam CCs, and they will get Defiance.

This experience will vary depending on who you’re playing with. Some skilled groups can and do coordinate the stripping of Defiant in order to use CC effectively. In persistent world, with just anyone showing up, not happening. However, how would you fix this? Providing timed CC immunity after a successful application would no more guarantee that you would get to apply CC at the “right” time than you can with Defiant.

MithranArkanere.8957:

No, they are not. A group of players going for a champion won’t use CCs effectively.

They’ll go for DPS. CC is pointless against them because they will get Defiance all the time.

Try to time your skills to interrupt the champion, it won’t work, because someone else will definitely spam CCs, and they will get Defiance.

Maybe you should coordinate a bit more? There are also trash mobs who are not immune to cc.

haviz.1340:

MithranArkanere.8957:

No, they are not. A group of players going for a champion won’t use CCs effectively.

They’ll go for DPS. CC is pointless against them because they will get Defiance all the time.

Try to time your skills to interrupt the champion, it won’t work, because someone else will definitely spam CCs, and they will get Defiance.

Maybe you should coordinate a bit more? There are also trash mobs who are not immune to cc.

How do you coordinate the behavior of someone you never even see in a zerg ?

Ashen.2907:

haviz.1340:

MithranArkanere.8957:

No, they are not. A group of players going for a champion won’t use CCs effectively.

They’ll go for DPS. CC is pointless against them because they will get Defiance all the time.

Try to time your skills to interrupt the champion, it won’t work, because someone else will definitely spam CCs, and they will get Defiance.

Maybe you should coordinate a bit more? There are also trash mobs who are not immune to cc.

How do you coordinate the behavior of someone you never even see in a zerg ?

Common sense.
Like at Teq. There are spots for different roles. Roles are told, people execute it.
Done.

Drakent.9605:

Shockwave.1230:

There are some enemies that zerker make die so quick you don’t have to avoid damage, but many Elites, Champions, and Legendaries you still have to avoid damage from, which is more punishing on zerkers if you don’t.

I would argue that zerker doesn’t make bad players, it makes better farmers.

Zerker will always be the optimal set as long as active defense trumps sustained defense.

You can watch videos on youtube where ppl stand on top of the boss and there HP never drops down or there dodge bar never goes down either

Luping whos is suppose to be the 1 of the strongest dungeon boss was kill in 40 sec with out any of the member’s getting hit with out the need of using dodge

Taking a video from 1 of the best PvE guilds in the game and use it as an example for all, pretty much sums up the intelligence of all the people griefing on zerker gear because they can’t get into dungeon runs with their dire/cleric/pvt set.

Oh look, it’s this thread again.

Zerker gear isn’t the problem. It’s the way they designed enemy NPCs, particuarly bosses. They attack slowly with attacks that either have a predictable pattern or an obvious telegraph, and do massive damage when they connect. Avoiding the damage isn’t an issue of mitigating the hits, it’s about dodging, blinds, reflects, aegis, or whatever the class mechanic is.

So either you go full zerker and get the boss down quickly, relying on those other mechanics to avoid damage. Or you go full soldier and try to tank the boss and get two-shotted instead of one-shotted (or one-shotted regardless), forcing you to rely on those other mechanics to avoid damage, except you’re doing less damage than full zerker.

Give bosses and such quicker attacks like player autoattacks that you can’t dodge or blind or aegis every hit, that do less damage where vitality and toughness actually make a difference. That will make defensive stats start to become more important.

haviz.1340:

[…]
Maybe you should coordinate a bit more? There are also trash mobs who are not immune to cc.

You can’t really coordinate in an in promptu group, as it’s rather hard to type while keeping pressed several keys in the keyboard, and there’s no “nearby” in-game voice chat.

As for “trash mobs”, they would also be affected by the autobalance I mention, so they are a bit less trash as autobalanced CC kicks in if people just spams CCs on them.

haviz.1340:

Gele.2048:

zerker is not the problem not having holy trinity in the game IS the problem Geting ONE shoot from boss IS problem

List the bosses that one shot you, please.

Go into high level fractals. Everything does way to much damage (one of the main reasons people rage quit at dredge on the third), basically any champ or legendary will 1 shot down you during lvl50s.

Fenrir.3609:

OneManArmy.9732:

another “zerker problem” thread

Yep, what fun.

IB4:

“Zerkers don’t use support or control!!!!”
“Zerkers sploit!!!”
“I can’t get a group unless running the full zerk meta!!!”.
“You can’t do the content unless zerk!!!”.
“Zerk is easy, PVT is hard!”
“Zerk players are bad!”
“Muh full clerics guard is slower than muh dungeon meta dps guard, it’s not fair!!!!”.
“Zerk is boring, heal spamming and tanking is awesome fun so nerf dps!!!”
“Every mob one shots you!”.

No need to mock that type of player-some are very reasonably and wouldn’t state anything of the above. Besides, some jerks come up with equally bad arguments to justify their “leet” choices (worse when they start insulting others as “bads” because of their gear choices.)

Mocking them makes you look bad, really-which I assume, you don’t care about anyway. But some of those statements above seem like silly, insulting exaggerations of what is usually claimed (I don’t agree with the premises of the OP, however.)

Some in the community are the problem (gear has nothing to do with it), and the reason “zerk” can be problematic is only because most encounters can be cleverly trumped over by max direct damage, and select support skills (and only in the sense that it promotes specific types of builds, and a sort of close-mindedness towards build/GEAR exploration-basically making all that gear choice a laugher when it all boils down to Berserker’s stats.)

On that regards, altering the AI/the encounters will encourage for even the elite players to become better, and for randoms to start copying less build/gear metas that won’t work for them, for clearly not all players can have a happy experience with Berserker’s, and that’s totally fine too (to be fair, even now not all of those builds can be effectively used by all players, and of course wearing Berserker’s won’t make you good at all by its own sake.)

Berserker’s gear is great, but not (really) the best solution for all players. As of now, it’s actually been popularized (and perhaps rightly so) as the one and only gear to use on PvE-that’s the genuine problem. Part community-part the way current encounters are designed, for better or worse. They should not “nerf zerk”, but rather improve on their promising, non “holy” trinity system which can be very enjoyable for many of us-that way we can see more gear choices becoming way more valuable than they are now.

In short, I do believe “zerk is the only way to go” for PvE as a doctrine the real problem, but it’s not the gear’s fault at all. Making the gear weaker does nothing, and of course defensive stat builds shouldn’t be stronger than Berserker’s, or Rampager’s for that matter (whish is rather underpowered in defense and offense as of now.)