Guild Wars 2

For thouse of you (and there are many!) that think that zerker build is the only good dmg build.
You are so freaking wrong!!!
i hit twice as much with my condition ranger then i do with my zerker chars.
Those that are making squads and only accepting zerker builds aren’t very smart ….

apawolla.6923:

For thouse of you (and there are many!) that think that zerker build is the only good dmg build.
You are so freaking wrong!!!
i hit twice as much with my condition ranger then i do with my zerker chars.
Those that are making squads and only accepting zerker builds aren’t very smart ….

The reason people don’t use Condi in groups is due to the poor system ANet set up for conditions. The cap prevents multiple people from really utilizing them. So when you have 3+ people stacking bleeds…

I’ll leave this right here to agree

OP is correct. Zerker is not the only damage build. It just tends to be the best in most PvE encounters.

apawolla.6923:

For thouse of you (and there are many!) that think that zerker build is the only good dmg build.
You are so freaking wrong!!!
i hit twice as much with my condition ranger then i do with my zerker chars.
Those that are making squads and only accepting zerker builds aren’t very smart ….

As much as i would like to believe it, you don’t support that with any data. In addition, it conflicts with the work that has been done showing where the best damage configurations for each class come from … condition damage isn’t it for any of them.

Perhaps you can qualify where you experienced this ‘doubling’ of your damage using condi ranger vs. …. whatever else. Then we can have a real conversation.

I agree… Zerk seems like the most logical choice for people to assume as the master dmg class.

However, the reason I have put it in the LFG channel is because it is less discriminating than for me to say “If you have PVT gear than bug off”.

Then people may not understand if I put “COF P2 – Damage Gear Only” …

apawolla.6923:

For thouse of you (and there are many!) that think that zerker build is the only good dmg build.
You are so freaking wrong!!!
i hit twice as much with my condition ranger then i do with my zerker chars.
Those that are making squads and only accepting zerker builds aren’t very smart ….

If you solo heavy armour targets, you will do more damage with a condition build than a berserker build.

Against medium, light and no armour targets though, and especially in groups, berserker will pull ahead though.

apawolla.6923:

For thouse of you (and there are many!) that think that zerker build is the only good dmg build.
You are so freaking wrong!!!
i hit twice as much with my condition ranger then i do with my zerker chars.
Those that are making squads and only accepting zerker builds aren’t very smart ….

No… No you don’t.

Assuming 100% uptime and 2100 condition damage and 25 stacks of might (875 condition damage)
This gives us:
Bleed: 4781 dps
Burn: 1071 dps
Poison: 381 dps
3 torment: 430 dps

= 6600 DPS…

That is less than half of a zerker ranger build and that is assuming conditions are 10x better than can actually occur.

Try again.

Ok then here it comes:
Elite skill 26.454k dmg (150 sec cd)
utility skill 1 3.360k dmg (25sec cd)
utility skill 2 10 s 3x stacks of confusion- 1k dmg on skill use plus reflects dmg 6 sec (30 s.cd)
Pet: 1.3k dmg every sec or so +2.4k bleeding every 6 secs plus other pet skills. Can switch pets to stack up might (double result for condition build and more bleeds and stuff).
Normal skills: 11k burning (20 sec cd)
8k buring (8 sec cd)
6.7k bleeding (6 sec cd)
4.420k bleeding (9 sec cd)
1.350k bleeding (12 sec cd)
Aoe auto attacks
1.9k toughness and 24k hp (more survavibility equals more dmg!

I will not even mention my traits which amplify my condition dmg even more.

More damage means less need for more survivability.

Also, conditions are damage over time whereas physical attacks occur the instant they connect.

Ayrilana.1396:

More damage means less need for more survivability.

Also, conditions are damage over time whereas physical attacks occur the instant they connect.

Sure, but…
if you dodge or run or whatever, a condition damage is stil lgoing so…
It is sometimes even better to have some condition damage going (it does not mean that overtime gives you less dmg output).

apawolla.6923:

Ok then here it comes:
Elite skill 26.454k dmg (150 sec cd)
utility skill 1 3.360k dmg (25sec cd)
utility skill 2 10 s 3x stacks of confusion- 1k dmg on skill use plus reflects dmg 6 sec (30 s.cd)
Pet: 1.3k dmg every sec or so +2.4k bleeding every 6 secs plus other pet skills. Can switch pets to stack up might (double result for condition build and more bleeds and stuff).
Normal skills: 11k burning (20 sec cd)
8k buring (8 sec cd)
6.7k bleeding (6 sec cd)
4.420k bleeding (9 sec cd)
1.350k bleeding (12 sec cd)
Aoe auto attacks
1.9k toughness and 24k hp (more survavibility equals more dmg!

I will not even mention my traits which amplify my condition dmg even more.

If you are reading these numbers off of tool tips then they already take into account your traits.

Using your numbers you get: 5270 dps… almost 1/3 as much as a zerker spec can do.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

apawolla.6923:

For thouse of you (and there are many!) that think that zerker build is the only good dmg build.
You are so freaking wrong!!!
i hit twice as much with my condition ranger then i do with my zerker chars.
Those that are making squads and only accepting zerker builds aren’t very smart ….

No… No you don’t.

Assuming 100% uptime and 2100 condition damage and 25 stacks of might (875 condition damage)
This gives us:
Bleed: 4781 dps
Burn: 1071 dps
Poison: 381 dps
3 torment: 430 dps

= 6600 DPS…

That is less than half of a zerker ranger build and that is assuming conditions are 10x better than can actually occur.

Try again.

Find a berserker ranger lupicus solo which is faster than conditions. Your double dps claim refers to maxed out group situation with optimal rotations and full pet uptime, neither of which will happen often.

apawolla.6923:

Ayrilana.1396:

More damage means less need for more survivability.

Also, conditions are damage over time whereas physical attacks occur the instant they connect.

Sure, but…
if you dodge or run or whatever, a condition damage is stil lgoing so…
It is sometimes even better to have some condition damage going (it does not mean that overtime gives you less dmg output).

Compute the effective damage of a condition ranger vs a berserker geared ranger. There are formulas in the wiki showing how to do this. You cannot use just tooltips. Also, if mobs die in 5 seconds but the bulk of your damage is over a 10 second span, you just lost out on DPS.

apawolla.6923:

Ok then here it comes:
Elite skill 26.454k dmg (150 sec cd)

Err… Where on earth is that number coming from? 150s mean Entangle and that skill just annoy people. In terms of damage it barely tickle anyone with half a brain.

Or are you saying that Entangle instantly kill anyone caught in it?

Because that would be quite awesome. Of course, the Ranger will still be kitten. But awesome nonetheless.

Condi does less damage overall than zerker, but as others said, the main problem is the condition stack cap.

Good luck doing much damage at all with bleeds and burning in a group, nevermind on a world boss. Many classes apply bleeds, poison, or burning without even meaning/wanting to with power builds, and our weak bleeds will overwrite a condition build’s strong ones.

Dawdler.8521:

apawolla.6923:

Ok then here it comes:
Elite skill 26.454k dmg (150 sec cd)

Err… Where on earth is that number coming from? 150s mean Entangle and that skill just annoy people. In terms of damage it barely tickle anyone with half a brain.

Or are you saying that Entangle instantly kill anyone caught in it?

Because that would be quite awesome. Of course, the Ranger will still be kitten. But awesome nonetheless.

Ok, forget the elite skill, the fact is:
I deal more then enough dmg to participate in any dungeon and most of the time I am the one rezzing others. So honestly, i do not see any reason, why i can not enter a squad? Why is it asking for a zerker build ?
Please, show me anyone dealing more damage then i do…..
I have seen quite many videos already and have not seen many that deal more dmg then i do.

apawolla.6923:

Dawdler.8521:

apawolla.6923:

Ok then here it comes:
Elite skill 26.454k dmg (150 sec cd)

Err… Where on earth is that number coming from? 150s mean Entangle and that skill just annoy people. In terms of damage it barely tickle anyone with half a brain.

Or are you saying that Entangle instantly kill anyone caught in it?

Because that would be quite awesome. Of course, the Ranger will still be kitten. But awesome nonetheless.

Ok, forget the elite skill, the fact is:
I deal more then enough dmg to participate in any dungeon and most of the time I am the one rezzing others. So honestly, i do not see any reason, why i can not enter a squad? Why is it asking for a zerker build ?
Please, show me anyone dealing more damage then i do…..
I have seen quite many videos already and have not seen many that deal more dmg then i do.

And possible those others would not have died had you done more damage. Dealing more damage is better than increasing survivability as we have enough damage mitigation (blinds, blocks, dodges, etc) to limit most damage.

Prove to us that you can do just as much damage with a condition ranger as a DPS ranger in berserkers.

It is very simple: the target rules which sort of damage is the most efficient. For the new modrem husks and the swirling modrems I can say condition damage rules. Also the husks during the triple headed wurm event are hard to kill as berserker.

OP, I don’t know, I’ve both a Zerk Ranger and a Condi Ranger (and 2 others), and altho my Condi can survive longer, my Zerk will kill much quicker and I survive well . I only run dungeons w/my Zerk Ranger, Warrior, or Guardian.

I’d suggest posting this on the Ranger Forum, as there a several good number crunchers there, like Guang or Prysin. What build are you using? I’d love to test this out.

I’ll also add that most of your ranger’s condition damage happens to come from bleeds which a number of glasses have access to. This is one of the most common conditions and often capped at 25 stacks. God forbid there’s a necro already in the group. The bleeds will just get overwritten.

A Zerker on:
Claw of Jormag
Tequatl The Sunless
The Shatterer
Fire Elemental
Jungle Wurm
Triple Trouble
Shadow Behemoth
Golem Mark II

is a weakened character. You cannot critically hit those bosses. Two stats wasted.

EDIT: Can’t say the abbreviation of GNU Image Manipulation Program here.

Ettanin.8271:

A Zerker on:
Claw of Jormag
Tequatl The Sunless
The Shatterer
Fire Elemental
Jungle Wurm
Triple Trouble
Shadow Behemoth
Golem Mark II

is a weakened character. You cannot critically hit those bosses. Two stats wasted.

EDIT: Can’t say the abbreviation of GNU Image Manipulation Program here.

As opposed to condition spec characters… who literally do <100 dps. It is literally better for the condition player to NOT be there as to not scale up the event because they scale it more than the damage they do.

Ettanin.8271:

A Zerker on:
Claw of Jormag
Tequatl The Sunless
The Shatterer
Fire Elemental
Jungle Wurm
Triple Trouble
Shadow Behemoth
Golem Mark II

is a weakened character. You cannot critically hit those bosses. Two stats wasted.

EDIT: Can’t say the abbreviation of GNU Image Manipulation Program here.

So? It’s generally accepted knowledge you don’t bring Zerk gear to anything that can’t be crit, just like it’s accepted that you don’t bring condi to any group event because the cap makes anything more than two condition builds completely redundant.

Also have a shameless self-plug of a half-baked idea on how condition can be fixed for PvE.

Ettanin.8271:

A Zerker on:
Claw of Jormag
Tequatl The Sunless
The Shatterer
Fire Elemental
Jungle Wurm
Triple Trouble
Shadow Behemoth
Golem Mark II

is a weakened character. You cannot critically hit those bosses. Two stats wasted.

EDIT: Can’t say the abbreviation of GNU Image Manipulation Program here.

What on earth does it matter what gear you wear on those bosses?
You are 1 person.
Theres literally another 100 ppl
You can still spam 1 with NO GEAR and still get a loot box lol.
Thats how easy this game is buddy.
As long as you can tag in open world events, you win.

Oh look it’s this thread.

OP is right, Zerker is not the only damage build.
The reason is very simple.
That is because zerker is not a build at all

Except with the condition cap you can only have a couple of condition users, and if the other players are in Berserker gear and still apply conditions they still hit the cap reducing your effectiveness.

Morsus.5106:

Except with the condition cap you can only have a couple of condition users, and if the other players are in Berserker gear and still apply conditions they still hit the cap reducing your effectiveness.

I am nto really sure why bleeding and other conditions are capped to 25? Everyone should be able to deal hi damage and that’s it. But no, you have only 10 options for a build in pvp (10 amulets), you can not play a condition build because 200 ppl can only have 25 stacks:) load of xxx:)

apawolla.6923:

Morsus.5106:

Except with the condition cap you can only have a couple of condition users, and if the other players are in Berserker gear and still apply conditions they still hit the cap reducing your effectiveness.

I am nto really sure why bleeding and other conditions are capped to 25? Everyone should be able to deal hi damage and that’s it. But no, you have only 10 options for a build in pvp (10 amulets), you can not play a condition build because 200 ppl can only have 25 stacks:) load of xxx:)

Builds are not set by the number of stat combo types.

apawolla.6923:

I am nto really sure why bleeding and other conditions are capped to 25? Everyone should be able to deal hi damage and that’s it. But no, you have only 10 options for a build in pvp (10 amulets), you can not play a condition build because 200 ppl can only have 25 stacks:) load of xxx:)

I believe the cap is to prevent conditions from become too overpowered in PvP/WvW (it’s already pretty hefty as-is), but the downside is it basically cripples condition builds in group PvE events. If they remove the cap, conditions will become useful again in group PvE, but then PvP/WvW players will suffer when zergs instantly drop 100 stacks of bleed/poison and the DoT kills people faster than they can heal/cleanse.

The condition cap exists not solely for balance reasons, but because the servers would be overloaded with calculations if there was no cap.

IvanTheGrey.2941:

I’ll leave this right here to agree

This video demonstrate why condition damage is terrible in 90% of the PvE encounter.

If you are leveling in the open world(especially in the early level), monster die in a few second, so burst damage > sustain damage. Berserker > Condition.

If you are farming mobs in open world events, monster die in a few seconds, condition damage just take too long to be effective. You really want as much burst damage to fight for loot, if you dont’ do enough dps in those 1 to 2 second the monster are up, you won’t get loot. Berserker> Condition.

If you are doing world boss, condition damage is cap at 25. Having 100 people constantly applying bleeding, your bleed damage will just get overlapped and do no damage at all.

If you are doing dungeon etc. You still have the problem of condition damage cap at 25. If you have another condition damage players, you’ll do half amount of damage. Even without it, most class will still do some condition damage which will cancel out your condition damage. Notice how the character in the video can cap the condition damage at 25 by himself. If there are other players, he’ll actually do “less damage”. Berserker> condition.

So basically it dont’ matter if condition actually do damage, because it isn’t useful “most of the time”.

ps did I forget to mention it is “so” annoying to hit structure with condition build. eg. wearing rabid gear in snowbind fractal is “very annoying”.

Zerker is pretty much the best set of stats for regular dps. For bosses that can’t be critted you could choose anything else with power as main-attribute.

Still, this zerker-requirement in groups is…kittened. Sorry, I’ve tried to come up with another word for it but I simply can’t.
I’ve seen so many zerkers who absolutely failed. I like to call them ground-duds, since they spent so much time not standing and fighting that I could out-dps them with my celestial gear.
In short: The player is a bigger factor in the equation than simple stats.
A skilled player can be an incredibly devastating glass-cannon with zerker-gear, but it won’t turn someone who can’t dodge or adapt into a good player.

However, the zerker-standard in PVE has brought me some hilarious moments.
I run an ele with full celestial gear, mostly traited to earth and arcane. On the rare occasions that I play WvW, I made the experience that people just give up after some time in their pursuit to kill me, since I can out-tank their dps.
But I was talking about hilarious moments:
An aoe-attack hits, suddenly a huge group lays flat I’m standing, starting to rez, removing conditions with a bit of dodging and healing rain.
I may not run with zerker gear(mostly), but I keep the dps going on

The group stacking thing really is the main hindrance. Even if condition builds did comparable damage to berserker builds – even if they did MORE damage than berserker builds – in an isolated setting, they’d still suffer in group situations because of the cap issue. If condition builds were the way to go for optimum dps, you’d end up only being able to have one person running such a build in your party since having more than one would start overlapping damage sources that don’t efficiently stack, holding back the group as a whole even if the builds individually would be superior.

Just doesn’t work out in condi’s favor. Which sucks, as I like DoT mechanics and often prefer classes who favor them in MMORPGs. I’d be running s/s on my warrior all the time if I could, but it just…doesn’t hold up compared to better options.

(That said, I’m on condi crew for wurm all the time to get my DoT fix in. )

Conditions does need a rework, particularly against high ranked mobs (champions and world bosses). Here’s some suggested changes that should not change conditions much for one condition applier, but make condition builds more viable when there are multiple condition appliers.

Bleed

Bleeding stacks in intensity, and provides the primary condition damage. It is the most widely available type of condition damage.

They should increase the number of bleed stacks (25), but implement a system where a larger number of stacks, either drastically decreases the bleed duration, or the bleed damage.

High ranked mobs have high toughness, which mitigates physical damage. The proposed solution will mitigate condition damage for targets that receive focus fire (a.k.a. champions and world bosses).

Burning & Poison:

Burn and poison, stacks in duration, and they will have a limited damage potential against high ranked mobs. They can stack in duration up to nine times.

For each stack, the victim receives increasingly better poison/burning resistance. This will work such that it will easily resist burning and poison from opponents with weak condition damage, but a low chance to resist burning and poison from opponents with strong condition damage.

The proposed solution will ensure that the strongest burns and poisons will be applied, and that the condition damage dealers will have a much higher chance off dealing damage through their conditions. In solo encounters, burning and poison won’t be stacked many times so the opponent has a low chance to resist the condition.

Lindbur.2537:

The condition cap exists not solely for balance reasons, but because the servers would be overloaded with calculations if there was no cap.

Except it totally screws up balance, and their have been plenty of suggestions on how to get around the server limit. People say that more than 25 bleeds would be a death sentence, but if those same people rolled Berserker’s it would be a death sentence.

Other problem being that the old mobs so far are “zerker feed”. And the rank up system on scale up, increases HP and DMG greatly, and grant Unshakable on Champs, those stats being anti- Conditions, CC and Support. And more favoring the use of Berserker gear.

The new S2 living story mobs, Mordrem, have quite well undone it. Berserker is not best possible to use against them, since they deplete your health very quickly, if you’re not supported by CC and Support…

I hope ANet would also update the old mobs, Group content that is, to have such variety.

Unshakeable and scaled up stats are not anti support. What even gave you that idea?

Well, it does depend on the mob abilities, if they cannot create situations that would require Support, like heavy AoE, Area Denial and heavy conditions, no one will play as one if you can get away with it with just Berserker…

@OP

As it’s been said, Beserker is not a build. It’s a gear stat. Specifially +Power, +Precision, +Ferocity. However, having this gear does make it the most optimal for physical damage based builds. While there are gear sets that can do decent amounts of physical damage (aka Assassins, Valkryie*) they are not going to do as much as Beserkers. Period. Also if you are running a pure condition build you would be stupid to use Beserker gear. You’d be better off using Carrion, Rabid, or Dire. But, as been said, conditions lose alot of effectiveness in groups, and in a group setting would be VERY situational at best. While I am not a fan of “Zerkers or GTFO”, I do agree it is the MOST optimal for physical based damage builds.

*Note: While you can claim all day long that Valk gear is utterly useless, and does no where near the amount of damage as Beserkers, I would still contend that it falls into the catagory of phsyical damage gear stats. Of course it’s not as good as Beserkers or Assassins, but thats not the point I am trying to make.

FrostSpectre.4198:

Well, it does depend on the mob abilities, if they cannot create situations that would require Support, like heavy AoE, Area Denial and heavy conditions, no one will play as one if you can get away with it with just Berserker…

Playing with berserker gear doesn’t mean you don’t make use of support, in fact support is important to keep yourself alive and boost your damage output. Heavy aoe and area denial fights already exist in this game and you can beat them as a glass cannon too. So I’ll ask again, how is defiant anti support?

its fine to have 1 condi build in a group for dungeons, but generally zerker damage is superior due to either mobs dying too fast for condis to get built up, or mobs that don’t die fast being condi-capped by other people.

as a primarily pvp player i can say that condis are still OP in pvp due to the necessity to sacrifice utility slots to stun breakers, stability or other things, most players will only have 1 maybe 2 condi removal options, so the condi spam simply drowns them faster than they can be removed.

Jerus.4350:

apawolla.6923:

For thouse of you (and there are many!) that think that zerker build is the only good dmg build.
You are so freaking wrong!!!
i hit twice as much with my condition ranger then i do with my zerker chars.
Those that are making squads and only accepting zerker builds aren’t very smart ….

The reason people don’t use Condi in groups is due to the poor system ANet set up for conditions. The cap prevents multiple people from really utilizing them. So when you have 3+ people stacking bleeds…

Exactly and I see multiple people posting things like we are whining. Whining is when you complain but don’t provide solutions.

I and many others have provided AMPLE solutions. One of the most popular solutions is the removal of conditions from non-condition build attacks. Where Conditions from attacks will only occur in Condition heavy builds IE when people choose grandemaster in a condition build line. This would eliminate unecessary stacking, force a revamp of zerker and power skills to compensate for the loss, and allow condition builds to have a come back.

Pooof problem solved. Guess where that suggestion ended up. Yep, trashcan. smh

FrostSpectre.4198:

Other problem being that the old mobs so far are “zerker feed”. And the rank up system on scale up, increases HP and DMG greatly, and grant Unshakable on Champs, those stats being anti- Conditions, CC and Support. And more favoring the use of Berserker gear.

The new S2 living story mobs, Mordrem, have quite well undone it. Berserker is not best possible to use against them, since they deplete your health very quickly, if you’re not supported by CC and Support…

I hope ANet would also update the old mobs, Group content that is, to have such variety.

Huh? I kill them just fine with berserker gear.

Not going to read responses

Thing with condi is dmg over time. The shorter time something is alive the less dmg it does. Also there are condi caps. So the more condi players and the less time the less condi matters. This is where zerker shines.

Condi is great for solo or duo encounters. After that zerkers are where it’s at for dmg.

Zerker=things dying faster
Condi=more dmg over time

So the more ppl and the faster something dies the less condi is preferable.

Ayrilana.1396:

FrostSpectre.4198:

Other problem being that the old mobs so far are “zerker feed”. And the rank up system on scale up, increases HP and DMG greatly, and grant Unshakable on Champs, those stats being anti- Conditions, CC and Support. And more favoring the use of Berserker gear.

The new S2 living story mobs, Mordrem, have quite well undone it. Berserker is not best possible to use against them, since they deplete your health very quickly, if you’re not supported by CC and Support…

I hope ANet would also update the old mobs, Group content that is, to have such variety.

Huh? I kill them just fine with berserker gear.

Don’t tell them that, they’ll start complaining again once they realise it.

maha.7902:

Ayrilana.1396:

FrostSpectre.4198:

Other problem being that the old mobs so far are “zerker feed”. And the rank up system on scale up, increases HP and DMG greatly, and grant Unshakable on Champs, those stats being anti- Conditions, CC and Support. And more favoring the use of Berserker gear.

The new S2 living story mobs, Mordrem, have quite well undone it. Berserker is not best possible to use against them, since they deplete your health very quickly, if you’re not supported by CC and Support…

I hope ANet would also update the old mobs, Group content that is, to have such variety.

Huh? I kill them just fine with berserker gear.

Don’t tell them that, they’ll start complaining again once they realise it.

They’re going to complain either way.

Ayrilana.1396:

maha.7902:

Ayrilana.1396:

FrostSpectre.4198:

Other problem being that the old mobs so far are “zerker feed”. And the rank up system on scale up, increases HP and DMG greatly, and grant Unshakable on Champs, those stats being anti- Conditions, CC and Support. And more favoring the use of Berserker gear.

The new S2 living story mobs, Mordrem, have quite well undone it. Berserker is not best possible to use against them, since they deplete your health very quickly, if you’re not supported by CC and Support…

I hope ANet would also update the old mobs, Group content that is, to have such variety.

Huh? I kill them just fine with berserker gear.

Don’t tell them that, they’ll start complaining again once they realise it.

They’re going to complain either way.

Now I’m going to have to complain about you telling me that they’ll complain either way.

Essence Snow.3194:

Not going to read responses

Thing with condi is dmg over time. The shorter time something is alive the less dmg it does. Also there are condi caps. So the more condi players and the less time the less condi matters. This is where zerker shines.

Condi is great for solo or duo encounters. After that zerkers are where it’s at for dmg.

Zerker=things dying faster
Condi=more dmg over time

So the more ppl and the faster something dies the less condi is preferable.

That’s how it should work, but it doesn’t.

Current Sustaind max condition dps (over long periods): ~5000dps
Current Sustained max direct dps (over long periods): ~12000dps
Cyrrent Sustained max Hybrid dps (over long periods): ~8000dps

Direct damage zerker builds FAR outshine ALL other builds currently. That isn’t how it should be, but it is. Saying that condition damage is “ok” in some situations is just making the problem worse and not helping anyone.