Guild Wars 2

Someone help me understand this. Berserkers/direct damage builds are spiking down players very quickly in PvP, trivializing dungeon bosses, and are 95%+ of damage on world bosses for literally years and it’s ok. Condition damage pulls level(ish) for one day and Anet promises a nerf to Condis. Someone help me understand why it’s not ok for condition builds to matter?

Because Anet want to appease the majority. These berserk are the paying customers via the gem store.

I also dont understand, for the first time we have build diversity, and they`re already nerfing it, guess they want the old meta to stay.

Why assume that the nerf will make condi unplayable? Doubt they’re going to nerf it that much.

Who said condition damage is not okay? All anet said condition damage is overperforming of where it should be.

JonPeters.5630:

Just getting these out there so we know we are all in agreement:

1) Conditions seem a bit strong
2) World bosses are currently too easy
3) There are some bugged skills and traits
4) There are some overpowered builds

We won’t fix it all at once but these are four large topics we are talking about. In the meantime keep the feedback and bug reports coming, and I guess farm up some world bosses. We are dedicating time towards these issues and are intending to resolve them as quickly as possible. As we have said before, the live environment differs too greatly from anything we can reliably simulate internally so big changes like today’s build will cause things to sometimes change at an alarming rateTM.

Thanks for your patience,

Jon

There is a difference between both you know. Not sure what one has to do with the other.

I think the DoT is at a perfect spot.I don’t know why people complain so much.Yes it may need a bit of tweeking but it is definitelly in a better spot than a month ago.

World bosses simply need buffed. If you nerf condition anymore will just cause it to be useless on everything but world bosses

I think its because against power your hp/armor stats actually matter. Where as condi don’t give a kitten. You have to do active things to remove condis and if your stuff is on cd you can’t do anything about it. With power builds you can at least negate some damage.

Either way they should make condi work on 3 different stats rather than just one alone. Power builds require 3 things to do damage well. Condi just needs condi dmg. You can have a tiny bit of duration but still do the dmg.

Haven’t managed to log in yet. If the sole problem with conditions is that they bypass boss armor, hopefully the fix will be in giving bosses resistance to dots, not nerfing conditions -.-

Because its meant to balance, not to turn the table.

Also, Condition builds are lazy builds imho. Damage over time sou you can apply condition and see the enemy dying without risking yourself? Not my style.

Bleeding already got nerfed; burning seems to be the problem. There’s a screenie going around of a guardian stacking burns enough to get 17,000-20,000 (yes, 17k-20k) damage ticks on a world boss, in that “Things We Know” thread. That’s insane.

MauricioCezar.2673:

Because its meant to balance, not to turn the table.

Also, Condition builds are lazy builds imho. Damage over time sou you can apply condition and see the enemy dying without risking yourself? Not my style.

Conditions are not no risk. Just getting close enough to apply them puts you at risk, just like any other attack.

Pockets.3201:

MauricioCezar.2673:

Because its meant to balance, not to turn the table.

Also, Condition builds are lazy builds imho. Damage over time sou you can apply condition and see the enemy dying without risking yourself? Not my style.

Conditions are not no risk. Just getting close enough to apply them puts you at risk, just like any other attack.

Most of then are inflicted trough ranged ways. Even while it haves risks, don’t even compare to direct damage output risk.

On another point of view or defense on my tought : Condition damage is directly linked to toughness, making the condi builds heavily defensible.

Zerker/burst damage are linked to critical and precision , what in one way or another, sacrifice both Vitality and toughness, so to give high damage burst, you are always likely to be squishy and high risk gameplay.

My friend just showed me a screenie from someone showing Bleed tick damage of 17K. The next tick, a second later, was 20K.

I believe that top direct damage DPS was (pre-patch) somewhere around 13-14K if fully buffed out (Asc,. top tier food, full Might stacks, Fury up, optimum rotation, etc.) Fact is, most direct builds will rarely if ever get to that level of DPS. This guy’s bleed DPS was 17K. A second later it was 20K. could it go higher? Maybe, maybe not. Assuming he was fully buffed also, that’s ~6K DPS higher.

The issue isn’t that condi is now level with direct builds, it’s that it’s doing more than direct does or ever did. This is a balance issue. There were two issues with condi before. One, that it was doing next to nothing in large groups was a technical issue. Fixing the balance issue does not mean dropping the fix to the technical issue. the other issue was max condi DPs was below max direct DPS. It looks like there’s a fair amount of room to reduce condi potential without returning to the old status quo.

In another thread, someone showed how he had some bleeding and other conditions doing a few hundred damage per tick… and burning was doing 20,000!!!

I think a lot of people said it isn’t so much condition damage as it is burning damage. Now, I was in wvw and tried some condis, in a duel. I wasn’t precisely a condi build, it was sorta kinda, and my other condis were doing a couple hundred damage per tick, rather pathetic actually…. and the one stack of burning I applied was doing 5x that. Still less than 1000, and as I said it wasnt a condi build.

Tonight I’m going seriously condi heavy and see what it can do again. But my one stack of burning was outperforming every other condi I applied by a factor of 5 at least. We will see tonight when I go heavy confusion/torment, but I’ll have torch as part of the package so I can combat log the prestige and phantasmal mage (now that it does burning) against the confusion/torment its meant to do.

MauricioCezar.2673:

Because its meant to balance, not to turn the table.

Also, Condition builds are lazy builds imho. Damage over time sou you can apply condition and see the enemy dying without risking yourself? Not my style.

nah, if its a weaker critter you normally cant outperform direct damage, it dies too fast, and a tougher boss the duration can die down too quickly. Constant application is the key, while still staying alive.

From what I’ve seen, Burning is OP and needs a mild nerfing. Some specific classes / skills & traits are also OP and need some adjustment. The assumption that Anet is going to completely undo the recent condi changes is absurd. Anyone that thought this type of change would happen without some disruption in the “meta” and some needed tweaks and adjustments has no idea how difficult this kind of balance change really is.

Condition completely ignores armor as well, so if it performs too well there’s no reason to run zerker at all. There’s also the aspect of most means of applying condition are ranged, and therefore less risky. Anet is looking balance, that’s all there is to it.

Condi’s are fine for the most part.

But burning and Poison really need a hard cap on how many stacks can be applied.

Being able to consistently apply burning stacks that will tick for 4k+ is abysmally overpowered.

Zerk takes 3 stats, Power, Precision and Ferocity to do damage, Condi takes only 1 and it ignores armor.

why do ppl that blindly scream for condi buffs ignore that part?

High condi damage with zerker stats is not ok.
High direct damage with condition stat’s is also not ok.

maybe condi should have diminishing returns as the stacks build to keep it from getting uber stupid.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Condi’s are fine for the most part.

But burning and Poison really need a hard cap on how many stacks can be applied.

Being able to consistently apply burning stacks that will tick for 4k+ is abysmally overpowered.

there are values of burning that are “too high.”
4k is not one of them.

how much dps do you think a standard “zerker” build does?
(ps its more then 4k.)

Casia.4281:

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Condi’s are fine for the most part.

But burning and Poison really need a hard cap on how many stacks can be applied.

Being able to consistently apply burning stacks that will tick for 4k+ is abysmally overpowered.

there are values of burning that are “too high.”
4k is not one of them.

how much dps do you think a standard “zerker” build does?
(ps its more then 4k.)

Burning is passive. It ignores armor. It gains it’s effectiveness from one stat, “zerker build” gains it from 3. Alongside burning will also be other forms of Conditions and damage. People don’t suddenly stop doing 0 damage from everything else as soon as they decide to use burns.

First condition specs use rabid if they have enough HP you won’t see a rabid guard or thief around because condition takes time to do damage and can be cleansed,mitigated or transferred. Secon zerker is RNG and is instant damage,third you can’ really pull of sinister as better than rabid,dire or carrion vs players it won’t sync well and it’s not really worth it.

So far yeah burning is the only that needs to be checked so it can mostly be given back to condition guard.

We cant even have BASE dmg on 750 condi dmg whats next 1000? is that also op?
we dont even get + duration from traits anymore wth

Darknicrofia.2604:

Zerk takes 3 stats, Power, Precision and Ferocity to do damage, Condi takes only 1 and it ignores armor.

why do ppl that blindly scream for condi buffs ignore that part?

You could also argue condi takes “3” – condi damage, duration (any traits left? but there’s utilities (mesmer) and/or food and/or sigils, etc), and the opportunity costs of using condi weapons (they have lower base damages.) Many condi builds also need precision/crit for procing bleeds as well…I’d count some combo of that at least 3…

Further the opportunity cost of ramp up time, as well as the cost of gaining access to all types of condi (having to take a trait or weapon to gain access to burn for instance.)

I’m not saying either way that condis are under or overpowered. Just apples and oranges. You can’t simply say direct damage/zerk has 3 times the stat cost when there are plenty of other factors in builds and costs in builds.

Mightybird.6034:

Darknicrofia.2604:

Zerk takes 3 stats, Power, Precision and Ferocity to do damage, Condi takes only 1 and it ignores armor.

why do ppl that blindly scream for condi buffs ignore that part?

You could also argue condi takes “3” – condi damage, duration (any traits left? but there’s utilities (mesmer) and/or food and/or sigils, etc), and the opportunity costs of using condi weapons (they have lower base damages.) Many condi builds also need precision/crit for procing bleeds as well…I’d count some combo of that at least 3…

Further the opportunity cost of ramp up time, as well as the cost of gaining access to all types of condi (having to take a trait or weapon to gain access to burn for instance.)

I’m not saying either way that condis are under or overpowered. Just apples and oranges. You can’t simply say direct damage/zerk has 3 times the stat cost when there are plenty of other factors in builds and costs in builds.

Okay, how about this then? When a Zerker build is going on the defencive by utilizing blocks, say warrior shield 5, engie toolkit 4, they’re no longer doing damage.

Condition builds? Complete opposite.

I can equip a settlers amulet on a ranger, gaining stupid amounts of survivability from the toughness and healing power while still dishing out insane amounts of condi damage. A power build can’t do that.

IndigoSundown.5419:

My friend just showed me a screenie from someone showing Bleed tick damage of 17K. The next tick, a second later, was 20K.

I believe that top direct damage DPS was (pre-patch) somewhere around 13-14K if fully buffed out (Asc,. top tier food, full Might stacks, Fury up, optimum rotation, etc.) Fact is, most direct builds will rarely if ever get to that level of DPS. This guy’s bleed DPS was 17K. A second later it was 20K. could it go higher? Maybe, maybe not. Assuming he was fully buffed also, that’s ~6K DPS higher.

The issue isn’t that condi is now level with direct builds, it’s that it’s doing more than direct does or ever did. This is a balance issue. There were two issues with condi before. One, that it was doing next to nothing in large groups was a technical issue. Fixing the balance issue does not mean dropping the fix to the technical issue. the other issue was max condi DPs was below max direct DPS. It looks like there’s a fair amount of room to reduce condi potential without returning to the old status quo.

That was actually burning not bleeds. I saw the same screen shot and bleeds we’re very low damage. Just trying to get everyone to know that burning is the issue not all consitions. My poor necro has had enough nerf trauma lately. She can’t take much more captain.

Darknicrofia.2604:

Zerk takes 3 stats, Power, Precision and Ferocity to do damage, Condi takes only 1 and it ignores armor.

why do ppl that blindly scream for condi buffs ignore that part?

this

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

Mightybird.6034:

Darknicrofia.2604:

Zerk takes 3 stats, Power, Precision and Ferocity to do damage, Condi takes only 1 and it ignores armor.

why do ppl that blindly scream for condi buffs ignore that part?

You could also argue condi takes “3” – condi damage, duration (any traits left? but there’s utilities (mesmer) and/or food and/or sigils, etc), and the opportunity costs of using condi weapons (they have lower base damages.) Many condi builds also need precision/crit for procing bleeds as well…I’d count some combo of that at least 3…

Further the opportunity cost of ramp up time, as well as the cost of gaining access to all types of condi (having to take a trait or weapon to gain access to burn for instance.)

I’m not saying either way that condis are under or overpowered. Just apples and oranges. You can’t simply say direct damage/zerk has 3 times the stat cost when there are plenty of other factors in builds and costs in builds.

Okay, how about this then? When a Zerker build is going on the defencive by utilizing blocks, say warrior shield 5, engie toolkit 4, they’re no longer doing damage.

Condition builds? Complete opposite.

I can equip a settlers amulet on a ranger, gaining stupid amounts of survivability from the toughness and healing power while still dishing out insane amounts of condi damage. A power build can’t do that.

Opposite? No more stacks are being applied,it becomes easier to cleanse/heal off/transfer. Zerker=/=glass cannon you still have your traits,skills etc.

Rezzet.3614:

Darknicrofia.2604:

Zerk takes 3 stats, Power, Precision and Ferocity to do damage, Condi takes only 1 and it ignores armor.

why do ppl that blindly scream for condi buffs ignore that part?

this

Yup.

Want condition damage buffs? Ask for a three-stat split. There’s zero reason 3k armor and 26k hp should deal better DPS, burst damage, and CC than a build with 2k armor and 14k with none of that.

Surviving is the easy part…. been playing that Zerker crap forever. You make dots crit and I’ll take condi dmg, condi duration, and precision gear all DAY.

MauricioCezar.2673:

On another point of view or defense on my tought : Condition damage is directly linked to toughness, making the condi builds heavily defensible.

that’s simply not true. To deal optimal condition damage, you need condition damage, power (cd scales with power) and precision (because of the on crit procs that apply bleeding or burning). Yes, you can run with precision, toughness, CD, but you would be like a direct damage running in knights….

I didn’t think condi damage scaled with power… that seems…. off… I know you get more with might but I didn’t think that was the case for power.

I think he just means all condi builds do some direct damage so power is useful too.

Well he said directly in parenthesis that cd scales with power. That’s saying there’s a direct increase in condition damage the more power you have. I didn’t think that was correct. I could be wrong though.

The problem is that conditions have two big advantages :

1. They ignore armor.
2. Things in PVE don’t remove them – so basically unlike direct damage that does have some deficits in PvE condis are now very very effective.

Look at Teq now – before when it was just physical damage it required some coordination. With the condi situation it doesn’t matter what you do and you still win.

It’s pretty bad.

Harper.4173:

The problem is that conditions have two big advantages :

1. They ignore armor.
2. Things in PVE don’t remove them – so basically unlike direct damage that does have some deficits in PvE condis are now very very effective.

Look at Teq now – before when it was just physical damage it required some coordination. With the condi situation it doesn’t matter what you do and you still win.

It’s pretty bad.

the world bosses are terrible examples. the removal of cond cap explains all that.
Even as a power engineer, I was STILL stacking 20 stacks of bleed myself. Which would all get nullified, by 100 people all stacking 10-20 bleeds.

40-60% of the raids dps was being wasted prepatch. Even with good builds. And its silly to assume everyone had good builds.

World bosses obviously need a huge hp increase to compensate.

and yes, condition damage is 2 stats+vul,
power is 3+vul+% damage buffs. power then also countered by toughness.

Prec is not LARGE enough a factor. and probably should be. you really can just run +cond only, not even needing rabid/dire for its cond/prec.

I would probably be ok with condition scaling being nerfed more, but allowing conditions to crit, or have some other buff from precision. (not effected by ferocity.)

MauricioCezar.2673:

Pockets.3201:

MauricioCezar.2673:

Because its meant to balance, not to turn the table.

Also, Condition builds are lazy builds imho. Damage over time sou you can apply condition and see the enemy dying without risking yourself? Not my style.

Conditions are not no risk. Just getting close enough to apply them puts you at risk, just like any other attack.

Most of then are inflicted trough ranged ways. Even while it haves risks, don’t even compare to direct damage output risk.

On another point of view or defense on my tought : Condition damage is directly linked to toughness, making the condi builds heavily defensible.

Zerker/burst damage are linked to critical and precision , what in one way or another, sacrifice both Vitality and toughness, so to give high damage burst, you are always likely to be squishy and high risk gameplay.

You have zero knowledge of conditions do you? My thief my engi and ranger are point blank range when I’m spec’d condi.

Zalavaaris.5329:

IndigoSundown.5419:

My friend just showed me a screenie from someone showing Bleed tick damage of 17K. The next tick, a second later, was 20K.

I believe that top direct damage DPS was (pre-patch) somewhere around 13-14K if fully buffed out (Asc,. top tier food, full Might stacks, Fury up, optimum rotation, etc.) Fact is, most direct builds will rarely if ever get to that level of DPS. This guy’s bleed DPS was 17K. A second later it was 20K. could it go higher? Maybe, maybe not. Assuming he was fully buffed also, that’s ~6K DPS higher.

The issue isn’t that condi is now level with direct builds, it’s that it’s doing more than direct does or ever did. This is a balance issue. There were two issues with condi before. One, that it was doing next to nothing in large groups was a technical issue. Fixing the balance issue does not mean dropping the fix to the technical issue. the other issue was max condi DPs was below max direct DPS. It looks like there’s a fair amount of room to reduce condi potential without returning to the old status quo.

That was actually burning not bleeds. I saw the same screen shot and bleeds we’re very low damage. Just trying to get everyone to know that burning is the issue not all consitions. My poor necro has had enough nerf trauma lately. She can’t take much more captain.

Ok, he said bleeds but it’s entirely possible he misspoke. I was close enough to read the numbers in the screenie, but not to read the damage type.

Ziggro.7482:

I also dont understand, for the first time we have build diversity, and they`re already nerfing it, guess they want the old meta to stay.

Build diversity actually implies that all builds are viable, running a non condi based build is now completely pointless because of how they work now. In 5 man groups you’re not going to cap out 1500 stacks.