Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10
Windows 10
Zerker isn't the problem, AI is
No. We don’t want our dungeons to do different things, we want new dungeons, Please and Thank you.
Eh. I’d prefer more challenging and smarter enemies.
AoE scatter like in GW1 would completely break the game. There are tons of builds that could keep enemies from ever attacking because they’d be constantly running from AoE.
What really needs to be improved as far as AI is concerned is how enemies regain line of sight. Ranged enemies should try to maintain range while getting LoS back, and melee enemies should have some variation in their pathing so they don’t all stack up on top of each other.
Another thing that would really help is not allowing players to clip through enemies, at least in instances.
No. We don’t want our dungeons to do different things, we want new dungeons, Please and Thank you.
Making existing dungeons more interesting and challenging to play is close enough to adding new content and would be very much welcomed by me. Not to mention AI improvements would benefit all future dungeons as well.
Brother Gilburt – Guard / Agent Gilburt – Thief
Make enemies hit more frequent but let them deal less damage, suddenly support becomes viable and mindless zerking is nerfed aswell.
GuildWars 2
Currently playing Heart of Thorns.
Currently playing Heart of Thorns.
And suddenly you can now tank, heal and DPS, woot !
Make enemies hit more frequent but let them deal less damage, suddenly support becomes viable and mindless zerking is nerfed aswell.
so you want more dredeg fractals?
everything you all ask for already exists in game. and it is some of the most hated and dispised content by the majority of the player base.
on topic.
I personally think that leaving the existing dungeons the way they are is fine. maybe a few tweaks here and there. but leave them. i would rather the Team at Arena net make NEW stuff vs spending their time “fixing” (( what isnt broken in the first place. )) eveything.
if you really want dungeons to be hard then the AI should mimic the zerger attitude players do, let’s see how easy it becomes after such change.
Make enemies hit more frequent but let them deal less damage, suddenly support becomes viable and mindless zerking is nerfed aswell.
Because everyone loves dredge fractal.
Also, spoiler: we still zerk it.
Rezardi – [DnT]
Game over, yo.
Game over, yo.
Neither AI or Zerkers are the problem. Players will always find the optimum strategy. In this case it’s zerkers and stacking. If ANet were to implement better AI, players will simply find a new strategy.
But that said, some changes would be nice, dungeons are getting a bit routine (since players have already decided on the hand full of dungeons which require the least input and produce the most benefit from running).
The only problem is that dungeons are way too easy so you don’t have to know how to play, regardless of the gear used.
I heard a rumors that the enemy AI in beta was actually adequate,
but they removed it for some obscure reason, probably not to drive out the noobs.
there is a very simple solution.
leave dumb AI on maps level 1-15 and 15-25, and increase the AI smartness on higher maps.
or: keep the regular mobs dumb, but give veterans good AI.
Eh. I’d prefer more challenging and smarter enemies.
That would be cute for about a week or two, until it becomes a pain to even get a group together. We don’t need another TA F/U or Aether path.
LoS is used because u can´t tank in this game.
U need something to controll the mobs, and stack boons/other support.
Even a “tanky” gruop, with the goal to do a dungeon as easy as possibel will use LoS to share they´re defensive support (like protection from a guardians hammer for example).
They have to change all bosses/mobs. Mobs shouldn´t get pushed back while attacking them (Subject Alpha as example, i use LoS because it sucks when alpha is pushed like hell). And bosses need a fix place(movement area). Special attacks, some versus ranged players, other against melees.
But not the same 1-2 attacks which can both hit melees and nothing vs ranged like most bosses in this game.
Players shouldn´t push a boss, the boss should push the players^^.
Before they don´t do this, PvE will never be more then now.
(edited by Norjena.5172)
In beta, they replaced the AI with a smarter AI that would dodge, kite players, run out of AOE, and avoid AOE. The response was that it took too long to kill mobs and it was too hard to kill mobs so they put the old, “dumber” AI back in.
In beta, they replaced the AI with a smarter AI that would dodge, kite players, run out of AOE, and avoid AOE. The response was that it took too long to kill mobs and it was too hard to kill mobs so they put the old, “dumber” AI back in.
No the result was the ele laughed at everything. ALL THE TIME
In beta mobs would run out of AoE.
It was completely broken since the average player could exploit the mob pathing, but instead of fixing it ArenaNet just cut it completely.
Really IMO the issue with GW2 PvE is that the content is too easy. Most enemies are giant meatbags which one or two shot players (making Zerker so attractive) and have barely any mechanics. Most of the content can be soloed even.
Compare the most difficult content GW2 has to offer to something like heroic raiding in WoW. There’s a very specific demographic that ArenaNet refuses or is unable to appeal to, but it’s okay because most players want to spam 1 and complete the dungeon in 10 minutes.
(edited by Larynx.2453)
Really IMO the issue with GW2 PvE is that the content is too easy. Most enemies are giant meatbags which one or two shot players (making Zerker so attractive) .
That´s simply not true. There is not even one boss in the game who can 1 or 2 shot a realy tanky party.
That means right build, gear and partysetup. U can facetank everything. Probably except fotm 40+.
Make enemies hit more frequent but let them deal less damage, suddenly support becomes viable and mindless zerking is nerfed aswell.
Because everyone loves dredge fractal.
Also, spoiler: we still zerk it.
Never said something about spawning endless waves of mobs.
GuildWars 2
Currently playing Heart of Thorns.
Currently playing Heart of Thorns.
Making condition damage personal would already be a big step in the right direction. As long kitten people have to compete for one burning debuff nothing else really matters, the design is just stupid.
Never said something about spawning endless waves of mobs.
Lots of mobs = more frequent attacks = less avoidable damage = zerkers licking flowers = right?
Neither AI or Zerkers are the problem. Players will always find the optimum strategy. In this case it’s zerkers and stacking. If ANet were to implement better AI, players will simply find a new strategy.
But that said, some changes would be nice, dungeons are getting a bit routine (since players have already decided on the hand full of dungeons which require the least input and produce the most benefit from running).
I agree and disagree.
Yes if you change the AI the players will find a new strategy.
And that is exactly the point. Players should be forced to.
Easy solution:
-Make some monster immune against direct hits.
-bring back death penalty from GW1
-bring back monster necromancer who raise minions from dead bodys
-give Guardian and another class only access to reviving
Facing parts of a mop that can’t be zerked, getting downed without rezzing,
having minions raising out of ther bodys who get more and more while own numbers decrease.
That is an intelligent way to force people to have multiple build in hand.
A one fits all situation zerker build will exist as long as A-Net allows it.
GW1 had no zerking and there was a reason for that.
I admit you had the skills available to shuffle around to actually make some builds.
This is something A-Net has to fix as soon as possible.
Just pressing button #2 isn’t really playing a game
GW1 had no zerking and there was a reason for that.
I admit you had the skills available to shuffle around to actually make some builds.
This is something A-Net has to fix as soon as possible.
Just pressing button #2 isn’t really playing a game
Ah gw1 it has something quite different.
actually dont worry… this is mike in diff forum
And suddenly you can now tank, heal and DPS, woot !
I disagree.
Changing the mob AI doesn’t change the way the core mechanics functioning. Are you suggesting that the concept of no holy trinity is so poorly designed in Guild Wars 2 that the AI needs to be bad to compensate for this? That because of lack of trinity, that each encounter needs to be: los in corner or knock mob against wall and aoe zerg?
There can never be a real healer in gw2 and that is a good thing. Traditional healers do not engage in combat, they sit behind the dps and tank. In gw2 a vast majority of healing that exists is incorporated into active combat.
My suggestion only gives more importance to builds that are focused on control and support. How?
Well if mobs scatter then a group would need cc to slow or immobilize them in order to maximize dps. If the strongest form of dps is aoe spamming and the ai is changed to scatter upon aoe then having area control skills would become very important. So this translates to condition duration becoming important, immobilize, chill, cripple, skills like ring of warding, warrior’s hammer will all find a place in pve.
Like wise, support and healing will become more important. Since there can be enemies that successfully scattered that are still targeting allies from afar. Right now support builds aren’t needed because enemies are dead long before support is needed.
Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10
Windows 10
No. We don’t want our dungeons to do different things, we want new dungeons, Please and Thank you.
Nice attempt at speaking for the community, but it’s a failure because you’re probably in the minority.
The game needs more rewarding content and better mob AI.
No. We don’t want our dungeons to do different things, we want new dungeons, Please and Thank you.
Nice attempt at speaking for the community, but it’s a failure because you’re probably in the minority.
The game needs more rewarding content and better mob AI.
yep,
i starting to think bad ai has always been a design issue causing game designer to create dugeons of a over powered zombie mobs in order to increase difficulty.
Oh well, I wonder which game play mechanics game designers will add in this game to create more class dependencies.
I heard a rumors that the enemy AI in beta was actually adequate,
but they removed it for some obscure reason, probably not to drive out the noobs.there is a very simple solution.
leave dumb AI on maps level 1-15 and 15-25, and increase the AI smartness on higher maps.
or: keep the regular mobs dumb, but give veterans good AI.
the beta ai never adequete. All mobs stats got a major nerf after the second around of beta event. AI was always crappy. I always remember these things because I was hoping Anet might have a better policy on game AI. Sighhh…. the ai was just pain stupid
I agree and will even say that if you make the enemy AI much smarter then conditions become viable in PvE again. Torment (damages more as things move), and bleeding (high stacks fairly easily) now become much more viable when NPC’s are actively moving out of your AoE’s and avoiding direct damage. There is a reason condi is king in PvP but sucks kitten in PvE and that is when facing an opponent with a brain they are more likely to avoid any direct damage, as the NPC’s never do (save a MINOR few) .
Adding a few small changes to the way the dumb AI handles encounters will go a long way to making the game feel like a whole new experience. The line between PvE and PvP is far to diverse ATM, IMO bringing them closer would not be a bad thing.
edit: clarity
(edited by Tommyknocker.6089)
Eh. I’d prefer more challenging and smarter enemies.
Fixing AI could very well mean making them more challenging and smarter. I actually thing it will be just that if they’re fixed.
Control and (defensive) Support should have a much larger role to play in dungeons.
Vote for/against <dueling>: http://strawpoll.me/1650018/
Cred to Latinkuro
Gw2 is a masterpiece at it’s foundation. Content-wise however…
Cred to Latinkuro
Gw2 is a masterpiece at it’s foundation. Content-wise however…
No. We don’t want our dungeons to do different things, we want new dungeons, Please and Thank you.
Nice attempt at speaking for the community, but it’s a failure because you’re probably in the minority.
The game needs more rewarding content and better mob AI.
No, trust me. I pug dungeons daily. It is also common knowledge that most players avoid harder and time consuming dungeon paths, as evidenced by the LFG postings and discussions on the forum.
As for the latter , I agree to an extent. Hard content for good, consistent rewards would probably be well received. However, GW2’s track record for this isn’t very encouraging. Hence my view that we should keep things simple.
No. We don’t want our dungeons to do different things, we want new dungeons, Please and Thank you.
Nice attempt at speaking for the community, but it’s a failure because you’re probably in the minority.
The game needs more rewarding content and better mob AI.
No, trust me. I pug dungeons daily. It is also common knowledge that most players avoid harder and time consuming dungeon paths, as evidenced by the LFG postings and discussions on the forum.
As for the latter , I agree to an extent. Hard content for good, consistent rewards would probably be well received. However, GW2’s track record for this isn’t very encouraging. Hence my view that we should keep things simple.
So its better to keep the mobs dumb so players do not have to think to do anything? Mobs might as well not have any AI and just sit there like target dummies.
Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10
Windows 10
As is a lot of players struggle to learn and understand even these basic mechanics, so in a nutshell: Yes.
What the OP and some of the other posters describe sounds good in theory, but in practice I think it would just be annoying. Lots of raging and complaining on the forums as regular players try to figure things out and dispute new tactics among themselves, more rage quitting and arguments in-game. And for what? The same gold coin and handful of tokens. No, thank you.
I’m not against hard content. By all means, add it. But don’t replace what we already have.
(edited by Jahroots.6791)
No. We don’t want our dungeons to do different things, we want new dungeons, Please and Thank you.
Nice attempt at speaking for the community, but it’s a failure because you’re probably in the minority.
The game needs more rewarding content and better mob AI.
No, trust me. I pug dungeons daily. It is also common knowledge that most players avoid harder and time consuming dungeon paths, as evidenced by the LFG postings and discussions on the forum.
As for the latter , I agree to an extent. Hard content for good, consistent rewards would probably be well received. However, GW2’s track record for this isn’t very encouraging. Hence my view that we should keep things simple.
Making dungeons more engaging across the board (Doesn’t have to be harder. More defensive-minded enemies can have fewer HP) means that people will still just do the easiest/most efficient dungeon paths. They’ll just change. New dungeons won’t be played if they’re not more efficient than current ones, and will be boring if they are.
Dungeons were supposed to be challenging PvE encounters for the most coordinated and skilled players. I don’t know what happened there.
The problem is not the AI, it’s the mobs. Mobs are mobs, you have to kill them eventually. So the best strategy will always be to kill them the fastest possible.
If you want diversity, you need to include phases where you don’t have to kill mobs and therefore where the most important thing would not be DPS.
Having Control be required to maintain DPS de-emphasizes pure DPS builds, as does making Mobs challenging enough to require Support to keep the party alive while trying to lay on the DPS.
The problem is not the AI, it’s the mobs. Mobs are mobs, you have to kill them eventually. So the best strategy will always be to kill them the fastest possible.
If you want diversity, you need to include phases where you don’t have to kill mobs and therefore where the most important thing would not be DPS.
phases…. now we add a waiting period for each wave…..
I dont think you understand why some of us want a better AI. Play games such as overgrowth. Although its a simple fighting game, the AI doesnt have to cheat to make you want to run away. In fact, fighting 2 other rabbits enemies is dowright hard.
Some of us would like to play for a complex challenge rather than watching a progress bar that games designers try to convince us that it is a health bar.
Even FPS games have different roles, like Battlefield, Support, Assault, Sniper and Engineer.
Sometimes I wonder, post like these make me cringe.
http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/76972636953/game-development-myths-players-want-smart-artificial
game designers are babying players too much.
Look at most of the fractal/aether releases, there’s an evident pattern of ANet trying to push players out of stacking. I’m sure Anet is conscious that their lack of foresight in players following the path of least resistance undermined alot of the thoughtful content they thought they had put together. I don’t blame the players, they outsmarted the content by cheesing it. It’s almost certainly not how Anet envisioned it, hence the focus on anti-stack mechanics in most of the new instanced content.
This trend will probably continue. Applying a strong emphasis on the design of a challenge, rather than leaving it up to tweaked mobs, seems to be Anets solution, it’s certainly more cost effective since they seem to have more staff working on new content than revitalising old content.
Maybe they will re-visit the Explorable dungeon paths and try to bring them up to speed, but it seems Anet’s focus is elsewhere, so I wouldn’t hold my breath.
(edited by dace.8019)
As is a lot of players struggle to learn and understand even these basic mechanics, so in a nutshell: Yes.
What the OP and some of the other posters describe sounds good in theory, but in practice I think it would just be annoying. Lots of raging and complaining on the forums as regular players try to figure things out and dispute new tactics among themselves, more rage quitting and arguments in-game. And for what? The same gold coin and handful of tokens. No, thank you.
I’m not against hard content. By all means, add it. But don’t replace what we already have.
Basically what you are saying is that players should stay ignorant to gameplay mechanics and that the developers should continue to appease this mindset where the player’s general strategy is to auto attack and occasionally heal while the mob is stuck in the corner.
Sorry, I can’t support this type of thinking. Its overall bad for the game and ultimately the players themselves. Its better for them to actually know and understand mechanics than to not at all. Content essentially revolves around strategy of fights and if fights all consist of: stacking, pushing mob into the corner, los in corner and lure mob and then aoe then no matter how much content they add it will be the same with the only difference being the cosmetics.
Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10
Windows 10
Not exactly. But I don’t see any inherent value in having to learn ‘advanced’ video game mechanics. Some players enjoy this, others couldn’t care less.
Also, there simply isn’t enough endgame content to warrant making our existing dungeons any harder. Don’t forget that there’s still quite a few of players who don’t ever to dungeons because of the perceived difficulty.
As is dungeons are moderately challenging and do require some knowledge and skills, and I think this is adequate. Wouldn’t you prefer it if we could have more challenging mechanics in entirely new dungeons?
(edited by Jahroots.6791)
Not exactly. But I don’t see any inherent value in having to learn ‘advanced’ video game mechanics. Some players enjoy this, others couldn’t care less.
Also, there simply isn’t enough endgame content to warrant making our existing dungeons any harder. Don’t forget that there’s still quite a few of players who don’t ever to dungeons because of the perceived difficulty.
As is dungeons are moderately challenging and do require some knowledge and skills, and I think this is adequate. Wouldn’t you prefer it if we could have more challenging mechanics in entirely new dungeons?
Advanced? I’d say its “common”. Even gw1 had these mechanics I mentioned:
“Inflicting multiple hits of damage from damage over time area of effect skills like Fire Storm, or Mark of Pain. This can cause foes to scatter out of the AoE.”
Gw2 is among one of few mmos I’ve played where stacking, and zerging is the tactic for 90% of fights. I’d say the other is Lineage 2.
Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10
Windows 10
Make fights harder and this is what will happen:
PUGs will find afk range safe spots.
Experienced groups will melee and do the fight properly.
If you think I’m wrong, compare a Mossman 49 kill from a speed clear guild to a pug group. Compare pug svanir shaman and archdiviner kills to speed clears. They will run around in circles kiting, we will just stack and melee.
Or let’s take the wurm and teq for example, people were flipping out saying it was too hard because, you know, it actually involved co-ordination.
People in this game don’t want hard content, they want easy content with big rewards so they can sit and complain on the forum all day about how the game is too easy.
Rezardi – [DnT]
Game over, yo.
Game over, yo.
Do you really want to increase the difficulty on one of the main income sources in the game after all the nerfs we got on basically all the other forms of income in the game (farming, world bosses, temples, resource gathering,etc) outside tp flipping with the last patch?
Bring in new dungeons with harder content but leave the core alone, right now they are the income backbone to way too many players. Also they did make instances with content designed around what you ask for: aetherblade path in TA and the dredge fractal. We all know the result :P
Do you really want to increase the difficulty on one of the main income sources in the game after all the nerfs we got on basically all the other forms of income in the game (farming, world bosses, temples, resource gathering,etc) outside tp flipping with the last patch?
Bring in new dungeons with harder content but leave the core alone, right now they are the income backbone to way too many players. Also they did make instances with content designed around what you ask for: aetherblade path in TA and the dredge fractal. We all know the result :P
My perspective is if they were to change AI, then they should increase the rewards from normal mobs and bosses to compensate for the change. If they implemented AI changes and left the rewards as they are now they no one would do them because the time vs the reward isn’t worth it.
Amd Ryzen 1800x – Amd Fury X -64GB of ram
Windows 10
Windows 10
Take Liadri and make it even harder than before.
Remember how many people whined back then?
Do you really want to increase the difficulty on one of the main income sources in the game after all the nerfs we got on basically all the other forms of income in the game (farming, world bosses, temples, resource gathering,etc) outside tp flipping with the last patch?
Bring in new dungeons with harder content but leave the core alone, right now they are the income backbone to way too many players. Also they did make instances with content designed around what you ask for: aetherblade path in TA and the dredge fractal. We all know the result :P
My perspective is if they were to change AI, then they should increase the rewards from normal mobs and bosses to compensate for the change. If they implemented AI changes and left the rewards as they are now they no one would do them because the time vs the reward isn’t worth it.
Yes, but now you are also limitng how many ppl are actually able to do the dungeons and gain said income. Again remember aetherpath, it actually yelds higher rewards then all the other paths plus a chance to drop some really expensive skins and yet ppl don’t do it because of it’s length and difficulty. Look what the introduction of the AC troll did for hotw p1, ppl barely run it anymore compared to before.
Again leave the core alone, these dungeons need to remain as income sources. A harder dungeon with interesting mechanics is nice the first rounds but when you need to run it daily for income things go apart.
(edited by AlexEBT.7240)
I think they should normalize income across all playstyles, and then weight it toward challenging content. Make rewarding stuff more challenging to discourage farming, because that’s not what GW2 is supposed to be about.
Increasing rewards merely leads to inflation.
I think they should normalize income across all playstyles, and then weight it toward challenging content. Make rewarding stuff more challenging to discourage farming, because that’s not what GW2 is supposed to be about.
Increasing rewards merely leads to inflation.
Cough fractals cough