Guild Wars 2

Hey everyone.

Recently Anet obviously introduced the new Ferocity stat in an effort to nerf the zerker meta and introduce more variety in terms of player builds and play styles. The main problem therein, as some players have pointed out, is that regardless of any nerfs, zerker gear will still be the highest damage combination and thus, people will still feel inclined to use it if they want to finish dungeons and fractals within reasonable time frames. Furthermore, parties will also be more inclined to only accept zerker players now, thanks to the damage nerf rather than having mixed parties, which means playing as anything else besides zerker might earn you the ire of your team mates.

If anything, this nerf may have very well killed build variety as far as PvE goes (WvWvW and PvP was never zerker gear reliant). An example of this is that with my guardian, I used to have a mix of zerker gear and other stats to get a more balanced build between survivability and damage. Now my damage has been nerfed to the point that I feel I need to have full zerker gear just to get it back in line.

So, I thought of some potential solutions to the problem.

1: Remove crit damage and precision from the game altogether.

I’m sure I’d get a few gasps of dismay with that kind of suggestion, but honestly, I think it would be a simple and effective solution if Power was the only primary physical damage stat in the game. That way, you wouldn’t have to get three specific stats on your gear just to get maximum physical damage output, which leaves two stat slots open for more build variety. You could combine power with healing, condition damage, toughness, vitality etc, without feeling like you’re gimping yourself or your team.

To balance the loss of crit damage, Anet could also implement a 20% – 30% health drop for enemies (not sure on the exact number, because overall damage loss would have to be calculated properly), which would balance out the damage loss and bring it in line so, overall, killing enemies takes the same amount of time as it would have if you had full zerker gear.

With this change, on crit effects would obviously have to be changed to have an on hit effect with a percentage-based chance to proc.

2: Combine Ferocity and Precision into one stat.

If you’re going to introduce a new ferocity stat, why not rework it so that ferocity determines both your crit chance AND crit damage? That way, you remove one stat out of the zerker gear combination and open up a third slot for (once again) more build variety. You could slightly nerf the amount of crit chance and damage it gives in compensation for combining the two stats, but at the very least this would open up a few more options for players without wrecking their damage potential (for example, power, ferocity condition damage builds, or power, ferocity, healing power builds, etc).

That’s all I can think of for now, but I think they’re reasonable solutions that would introduce build variety without completely breaking damage potential.

whats so bad on running zerker?

i dont get it

is it bad running a gear where u actully need to doge ?

do u want us spam 1 as we do in wvw already

just leave the meta its fun and fair since everybody can do it

Balsa.3951:

whats so bad on running zerker?

i dont get it

is it bad running a gear where u actully need to doge ?

do u want us spam 1 as we do in wvw already

just leave the meta its fun and fair since everybody can do it

Is it wrong to want more build variety though? Is it wrong to want other stats to actually be important in the game? I have nothing against zerker gear, nor do I have anything against playing as a zerker. My only issue is that right now, it is the only viable way of playing.

You make it sound as if wanting variety is a bad thing. O_o

People always forget that there is pvp to pay attention too and Zerker is one of the weaker sets there however damage output and dps is still a must to kill.

Otherwise, the issue with zerker isn’t the gear or the stats, it is the mechanics of the game like how the bosses attack, their attack damage and their mechanics. Right now, bosses kill with one shot and therefore there is no point of healin or supporting in general if we exclude buff-support. Just buff everyone, stack might and kill the boss as fast as possible so he can die with the least amount of attacks.

I don’t think this will change or Anet want to change it, and if they do, it may affect the pvp negativly.

No, I just want variety so everyone can play how they want, without feeling pressured into one play style. That’s all.

nGumball.1283:

People always forget that there is pvp to pay attention too and Zerker is one of the weaker sets there however damage output and dps is still a must to kill.

Otherwise, the issue with zerker isn’t the gear or the stats, it is the mechanics of the game like how the bosses attack, their attack damage and their mechanics. Right now, bosses kill with one shot and therefore there is no point of healin or supporting in general if we exclude buff-support. Just buff everyone, stack might and kill the boss as fast as possible so he can die with the least amount of attacks.

I don’t think this will change or Anet want to change it, and if they do, it may affect the pvp negativly.

I did actually consider PvP and WvW. I even mentioned that zerker gear isn’t as important in either of those.

In my opinion, the nerf to zerker gear was actually a mistake. At least before you didn’t have to have a full party of zerkers just to finish a fractal in good time. You could have a more mixed party and still do well. With nerfs to damage, parties are more inclined to only look for zerker players, that’s why I feel you need to either change how it works, or just go back to how it was before.

I’d like to see Condi meta solution in pvp better, who cares about pve?

ferr.6403:

I’d like to see Condi meta solution in pvp better, who cares about pve?

What kind of solution do you want to see? A buff? A nerf? A rework?

Also, lots of people care about PvE. Hence why a majority of players spend most of their time in PvE. O_o

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

What kind of solution do you want to see? A buff? A nerf? A rework?

Also, lots of people care about PvE. Hence why a majority of players spend most of their time in PvE. O_o

Complete eviscerate of condies in pvp. Why don’t you make a thread about that?

haviz.1340:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

What kind of solution do you want to see? A buff? A nerf? A rework?

Also, lots of people care about PvE. Hence why a majority of players spend most of their time in PvE. O_o

Complete eviscerate of condies in pvp. Why don’t you make a thread about that?

Because I honestly don’t play WvW or PvP as much as PvE, so I’m not as knowledgeable as others in that regard. There are others more qualified to talk about PvP balance than I.

Why don’t you make a thread about it if it matters to you so much?

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Is it wrong to want more build variety though? Is it wrong to want other stats to actually be important in the game? I have nothing against zerker gear, nor do I have anything against playing as a zerker. My only issue is that right now, it is the only viable way of playing.

You make it sound as if wanting variety is a bad thing. O_o

All of this is utter bullkitten.

First, there will always be one or two optimal builds per class in PvE and nothing more. If berserker falls, just another set will take its place.

Second, the exact opposite of what you claim about viability is actually true. Right now, everything is viable in PvE. You can complete anything with 5 healer-bunkers, which is about as different from the meta as possible. If you don’t believe it, search on youtube for rT’s or whoever’s no dodge Arah runs. It’s just not optimal – but by definition, there can’t be many optimal things.

Third, we already have full variety. Open a LFG, state “Everyone welcome” and have a look how quickly it fills. However, there’s nothing wrong if others want to complete the same old dungeons, which haven’t changed in 1.5 years, as quickly as reasonable possible.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Because I honestly don’t play WvW or PvP as much as PvE, so I’m not as knowledgeable as others in that regard. There are others more qualified to talk about PvP balance than I.

Why don’t you make a thread about it if it matters to you so much?

There are literally tens of threads about zerkers popping out every day. It’s beating a dead horse way too much for my taste. On top of that, most, if not all of the people, that create those kind of threads start their thesis with complete false opinions and their way to fix the apparent problem always leads to even worse situation.

CptAurellian.9537:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Is it wrong to want more build variety though? Is it wrong to want other stats to actually be important in the game? I have nothing against zerker gear, nor do I have anything against playing as a zerker. My only issue is that right now, it is the only viable way of playing.

You make it sound as if wanting variety is a bad thing. O_o

All of this is utter bullkitten.

First, there will always be one or two optimal builds per class in PvE and nothing more. If berserker falls, just another set will take its place.

Second, the exact opposite of what you claim about viability is actually true. Right now, everything is viable in PvE. You can complete anything with 5 healer-bunkers, which is about as different from the meta as possible. If you don’t believe it, search on youtube for rT’s or whoever’s no dodge Arah runs. It’s just not optimal – but by definition, there can’t be many optimal things.

Third, we already have full variety. Open a LFG, state “Everyone welcome” and have a look how quickly it fills. However, there’s nothing wrong if others want to complete the same old dungeons, which haven’t changed in 1.5 years, as quickly as reasonable possible.

I never said nothing else was viable. I also never said you can’t complete dungeons with other builds. I’m just saying that parties looking for players are going to insist on zerker gear in a lot of cases just because they want to finish content faster. I never said that was my opinion or my belief, but I have been a victim of ire when people complain that my build or my skills aren’t to their particular liking.

Maybe my experiences have just been negative and do not reflect the actual state of the game, who knows? Anyway, I don’t mean any harm by my posts. It just seems to be an overwhelming sentiment that zerker gear is still the most sought after for PvE.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

ferr.6403:

I’d like to see Condi meta solution in pvp better, who cares about pve?

What kind of solution do you want to see? A buff? A nerf? A rework?

Also, lots of people care about PvE. Hence why a majority of players spend most of their time in PvE. O_o

I’d say it zerk was fine even before nerf. Why did anet ever nerf it?
To make zerk even worse and condi more viable?
Condi pvp now is not about skill nor about balance, it’s mindless “SPAM ALL RED ICONS on opponent, the more the better!” while not working in pve at all. That’s just my opinion :c So yeah, if you touch it, rework it, not just change numbers.

haviz.1340:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

Because I honestly don’t play WvW or PvP as much as PvE, so I’m not as knowledgeable as others in that regard. There are others more qualified to talk about PvP balance than I.

Why don’t you make a thread about it if it matters to you so much?

There are literally tens of threads about zerkers popping out every day. It’s beating a dead horse way too much for my taste. On top of that, most, if not all of the people, that create those kind of threads start their thesis with complete false opinions and their way to fix the apparent problem always leads to even worse situation.

I was trying to come up with different solutions from the norm. Like the combining precision and ferocity into one stat. My only aim was to approach the subject from a different viewpoint to invite discussion and maybe get a different perspective on things. My goal was not to complain or flame, or anything of the sort.

What I don’t understand is why people in this community always adopt such a volatile reaction to people trying to discuss possible new ideas. You all seem to think that if it isn’t your way, it’s the highway and that if things aren’t to your liking, then they cannot be considered at all. I never once implied that my ideas were perfect or correct. They’re just ideas that I had hoped would invite healthy and constructive discussions. Instead, all I am getting is a lot of negativity and a lot of snide responses.

Honestly, if this is the state of the community on these forums, then I really don’t want anything to do with it anymore. I’ll just carry on playing the game while you all have your mud slinging contests, and beat each other down into the dirt.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

I was trying to come up with different solutions from the norm. Like the combining precision and ferocity into one stat. My only aim was to approach the subject from a different viewpoint to invite discussion and maybe get a different perspective on things. My goal was not to complain or flame, or anything of the sort.

What I don’t understand is why people in this community always adopt such a volatile reaction to people trying to discuss possible new ideas. You all seem to think that if it isn’t your way, it’s the highway and that if things aren’t to your liking, then they cannot be considered at all. I never once implied that my ideas were perfect or correct. They’re just ideas that I had hoped would invite healthy and constructive discussions. Instead, all I am getting is a lot of negativity and a lot of snide responses.

Honestly, if this is the state of the community on these forums, then I really don’t want anything to do with it anymore. I’ll just carry on playing the game while you all have your mud slinging contests, and beat each other down into the dirt.

Take a look at pvp. Power builds are not dominating there and bunkers are relatively hard to kill. If you somehow touch this fragile balance in order to attempt to make pve “more diverse” you make defensive gameplay too strong and too easy. People already hate defensive gameplay in pvp, let’s not make it even worse.

We’ve seen hundreds of proposals, each not exactly thought through.

No. I never said I wanted to get rid of zerker stats. In fact, in my one post I even mentioned that I think nerfing zerker gear was a mistake. I was just offering possible alternatives to the way in which Anet nerfed Zerker gear.

Also, 4 out of my 5 most played classes are in full zerker gear, just for your information. I can handle the pressure. The only thing I can’t handle is people like you.

the solution is to change the mob AI and the condition mechanics, otherwise you just break PVP.

Ferocity has not been introduced to nerf the zerker meta
It has been introduced to normalize crit damage. All power builds got a nerf, not just zerker, so in the end it all stayed the same.

Please stop spreading misinformation.

If you are interested in understanding the zerker meta issues please see my posts on the issue. It should shed some light.

OP – you are trying to " fix " something that isn’t broken because you think it is. I suggest you inform yourself first.

I think the fundamental issue is the PvE game mechanics? Mobs hit too hard and too infrequently for defensive stats to truly be worth much. Currently, there are many ‘active defense’ options, which means that if you are skilled enough, high damage will always be optimal. Even if unskilled, I don’t think toughness/vitality would allow for significant margins of error because… things hit hard and they don’t do much else.

However, in cases of attrition and sustained attacks by mobs, I think the defensive stats are better in these situations. So personally, I think there needs to be a bit more mob diversity that would facilitate different roles? Or maybe… small, occasional persistent effects that require vitality/toughness to deal with.

No need to go completely nuts or anything, but something truly meaningful would be appreciated.

Aiglos.2907:

I think the fundamental issue is the PvE game mechanics? Mobs hit too hard and too infrequently for defensive stats to truly be worth much. Currently, there are many ‘active defense’ options, which means that if you are skilled enough, high damage will always be optimal. Even if unskilled, I don’t think toughness/vitality would allow for significant margins of error because… things hit hard and they don’t do much else.

However, in cases of attrition and sustained attacks by mobs, I think the defensive stats are better in these situations. So personally, I think there needs to be a bit more mob diversity that would facilitate different roles? Or maybe… small, occasional persistent effects that require vitality/toughness to deal with.

No need to go completely nuts or anything, but something truly meaningful would be appreciated.

Defensive stats are worth much. You just need to get more sustain in order for them to shine. Unless you think disabling your dodge button in arah path 2 and literally facetanking bosses like giganticus lupicus is not enough.

Balsa.3951:

whats so bad on running zerker?

i dont get it

is it bad running a gear where u actully need to doge ?

do u want us spam 1 as we do in wvw already

just leave the meta its fun and fair since everybody can do it

What is bad is that if someone were to ask “What armor should I use?” there is one answer the vast majority of players would give; not “What class are you?”, “What build do you use?” or “What do you mainly want to use it for?”; only different spellings and abreviations of “Berserker(’s)”.

First off I am not addressing PvP with this suggestion, secondly I an NOT referring to WvW either.

Make the PvE mobs dodge and avoid player aoe again like they used to do in the beta, gradually after level 15 (example) would be fine IMO. They could still make mistakes of course, I’m not asking for a dodge bot, but once in a while like the toxic enemies would make CC much more usefull.

Make toughness scale higher and not just make all the enemies in PvE just high hit point meat bags. Making high toughness effect physical damage in the same way as condi damage will damage structures (what fun) would make more builds viable in PvE.

I have nothing against zer*K*er builds (got a warrior I use in PvE only for it), but I too would like to see more builds become viable in PvE.

Edit changed a typo in a word so the spell check kitten’s don’t get all uppity.

Here’s the only solution that works:

Design PvE encounters in a way that rewards other aspects aside from DPS.

WvW has a lot of build diversity. They just need to translate some of that into PvE.

Tommyknocker.6089:

Make the PvE mobs dodge and avoid player aoe again like they used to do in the beta, gradually after level 15 (example) would be fine IMO. They could still make mistakes of course, I’m not asking for a dodge bot, but once in a while like the toxic enemies would make CC much more usefull.

Dodging would be fine.

Make toughness scale higher and not just make all the enemies in PvE just high hit point meat bags. Making high toughness effect physical damage in the same way as condi damage will damage structures (what fun) would make more builds viable in PvE.

Toughness scale properly:

http://youtu.be/b2VhmwLwvrM

I have nothing against zerger builds (got a warrior I use in PvE only for it), but I too would like to see more builds become viable in PvE.

It’s zerker, not zerger. Those 2 are completely different thing. (think != thing)

CptAurellian.9537:

It’s quite a challenge to stay contructive after tens of thousands of more or less equally stupid threads on the very same nonsensical topic.

Indeed.

Worst suggestion I ever heard.Do you really want everybody to be a condi bunker?

I don’t feel removing, or combining those 2 stats constitutes a reasonable answer.

As WoodenPotatoes pointed out in one of his recent vids, many of the dungeon bosses do have interesting mechanics; however, the stacking gimmick negates these. Skipping and stacking needs to be…adjusted, in dungeon content. That would be a start.

The issue with condition cap would need to be the next pve adjustment. This way having 2 condition classes would not be detrimental to each other and to the overall group’s damage.

Additionally, they need to adjust how effect full offensive builds are at supporting and controlling. One of the zerker arguments is that you can effective support your group and control your environment without speccing into support or control lines. I think this needs to be…reduced. In GW1, if you equipped a superior rune (for example) so that you could dish more damage, the trade off was that it dinged your hp, and in certain situations you felt it. We need more tradeoff here, more risk to going full dps.

Just my 2c.

many of the dungeon bosses do have interesting mechanics; however, the stacking gimmick negates these

Can you clarify why groups stack? Because I have screenshots of me asking why (when I did a dungeon) they wanted to stack and the answers they gave were so far from the actual reason it was just sad.

One of the zerker arguments is that you can effective support your group and control your environment without speccing into support or control lines. I think this needs to be…reduced. In GW1, if you equipped a superior rune (for example) so that you could dish more damage, the trade off was that it dinged your hp, and in certain situations you felt it. We need more tradeoff here, more risk to going full dps.

In defensive gear you can kill Lupicus and Alphard with your dodge key unbound. In berserker gear, swipes become one-shots and inability to dodge the multiple projectile attacks results in instant death.

But clearly, threat of being one-shot isn’t a risk at all. Contrary to what you see on dungeon guild videos, your average player doesn’t just dodge everything because “zerker is ez faceroll”.

So many people crying about pvp in here, lol. The only way any build meta gets resolved is by splitting everything. PvP versions, PvE version. They should never use the same numbers/mechanics because they are never the same game. But ANet is stubborn with their delusions of “merging pvp and pve” into one unit where everybody can be happy, so nothing will ever actually improve, only change laterally.

Anyone sick of conditions in pvp should be arguing for a pvp/pve split so conditions can be reworked for pvp. Anyone sick of zerker only should be arguing for a pvp/pve split so zerker can be rework for pve. As it is right now, ANet probably looks "well these things are terrible in pve but strong in pvp. Thats balanced! Oh and this thing isn’t useful in pvp but is really good in pve. Thats balanced too! Guys aren’t we great? Our game is sooooo balanced! \o/ "

Rather than arguing amongst [y]ourselves, we should be uniting to convince ANet to give up their lazy dream of “1 Ruleset to rule them all” and wake up and split separate game modes into actual separate game modes. They learned it in GW1 with their skills and have intentionally taken a step backwards with GW2.

hendo.1940:

Can you clarify why groups stack? Because I have screenshots of me asking why (when I did a dungeon) they wanted to stack and the answers they gave were so far from the actual reason it was just sad.

I’ve heard a lot of reasons. Efficiency seems to be the main one. If everyone is stacked, its easier to ball up all the foes on you and cleave them down. Quick and dirty.

Additionally, as I stated, it negates a lot of mechanics. For example, in CM3, people stack behind the door for Wahlen. You can aoe him down (not mention, there seems to be a bit of bus as you can hit him thru the door with certain melee skills), and not have to worry (as much) about his aoe bomb attack. You take less damage because, due to lack of line of sight, he can’t hit you.

Its the same in Aetherblade fractal with the cannons. People stack in the corner, and let the foes mob on them, cleaving them down, while at the same time the cannons can’t do any damage to you because they have no line of sight.

Now, I can see having stacking in certain instances be part of the mechanic, but I think there’s far too much of it right now as a means around mechanics.

In defensive gear you can kill Lupicus and Alphard with your dodge key unbound. In berserker gear, swipes become one-shots and inability to dodge the multiple projectile attacks results in instant death.

I never said you couldn’t do it in defensive gear, though people kitten that it takes ‘too much longer’ that way.

I also never said that there needed to be more risk in all instances. Only that there did need to be more, overall. I have no desire to completely destroy zerkers, merely balance out the desire to ‘all zerker, 80 only’ parties. Which, the only way to do that is to make support and control specs more desirable, and do that, straight zerkers need to be less effective at it on their own.

But clearly, threat of being one-shot isn’t a risk at all. Contrary to what you see on dungeon guild videos, your average player doesn’t just dodge everything because “zerker is ez faceroll”.

chuckle

I never said it was necessarily ‘easy faceroll’ nor, as I pointed out, did I say there was no risk. There does; however, need to be more in some instances. A lot of risk can be negated by having the ability to sidestep some of the various mechanics via stacking.

I’ve heard a lot of reasons. Efficiency seems to be the main one. If everyone is stacked, its easier to ball up all the foes on you and cleave them down. Quick and dirty.

+1

Additionally, as I stated, it negates a lot of mechanics. For example, in CM3, people stack behind the door for Wahlen. You can aoe him down (not mention, there seems to be a bit of bus as you can hit him thru the door with certain melee skills), and not have to worry (as much) about his aoe bomb attack. You take less damage because, due to lack of line of sight, he can’t hit you.

-1

Intelligent positioning (as in literal intelligent positioning, not afk safespots) do not negate mechanics. I’m pretty sure you can kill Wahlen anywhere, you just need reflects. Stacking in itself does not negate mechanics, people need to understand this.

Its the same in Aetherblade fractal with the cannons. People stack in the corner, and let the foes mob on them, cleaving them down, while at the same time the cannons can’t do any damage to you because they have no line of sight.

+1

Now, I can see having stacking in certain instances be part of the mechanic, but I think there’s far too much of it right now as a means around mechanics.

My idea of fun in doing the cannon part of Aetherblade is not running around like a headless chicken. If ANet want us to interact “properly” with mechanics they need to not just make them tedious time gates (molten fractal is equally as tedious with the weapon testing room) but things where it actually feels like you’re having fun and getting somewhere, not just afk’ing until the boredom stops.

I also never said that there needed to be more risk in all instances. Only that there did need to be more, overall.

The risk is still there, just people have (for some instances) learned to adapt. Try pugging SE p1 – if you have a bad guard or mes things can get real pear shaped with players being perma-stunned and ragdolled by bosses. Generally though, the fixing of crit damage scaling in low level instances has thrown the damage completely out of whack, I’ve heard guildies mention they deal like 2x the damage in AC now so it’s just a joke.

I have no desire to completely destroy zerkers, merely balance out the desire to ‘all zerker, 80 only’ parties.

They’re playing how they want. You can play how you want by not forming zerker parties. I’m not sure why they should have their right to play how they want infringed upon when you’re not even in their parties and neither of you have an effect on each other. If all you see are zerker lfgs (because they take longer to fill than normal ones) – make your own lfg. They fill quickly.

Which, the only way to do that is to make support and control specs more desirable, and do that, straight zerkers need to be less effective at it on their own.

The point of this game is that there is a damage/support/control trinity where each player is expected to do a bunch of each. I don’t see why people completely ignoring two aspects of this and focusing on one is something they should be rewarded for when it goes in complete contrast to the goal ANet had in mind.

A lot of risk can be negated by having the ability to sidestep some of the various mechanics via stacking.

You’re not sidestepping mechanics. Like you wrote yourself, the point is to line of sight and cleave mobs down. There is no skipping of mechanics. People like to mention the Spider Queen as an example – but if you stack on her (spoiler – it doesn’t matter whether you do it in a corner or in the middle of the room) it disables her ranged abilities but activates her melee skills. There’s no bypassing, the boss is just adjusting to the proximity of the players and using different skills.

hendo.1940:

The point of this game is that there is a damage/support/control trinity where each player is expected to do a bunch of each. I don’t see why people completely ignoring two aspects of this and focusing on one is something they should be rewarded for when it goes in complete contrast to the goal ANet had in mind.

Control is not and will never be a thing in GW2 while :

1.The defiant buff still exists in the game
2.Bosses and enemies don’t have cast bars so we can see what they’re doing to interrupt it.

For the two reasons above control is useless. It’s dead, buried, let’s move on.

Support.
You seem to think people are just focusing on damage without having support – and that part is just plain wrong.
Support is and always was a critical part of GW2.
Blocks, reflects, stealth, protection – all are crucial elements of any speed run. If you think that zerker parties focus only on damage that’s wrong. You need the proper active damage mitigation aspects down if you’re going to attempt to burn a boss down in melee as a zerker team.

So no – support has not been neglected – it’s just that people don’t understand that Your role in combat has nothing to do with the gear that you wear. An ele can support her party with water fields and might stacking as a full berserker.
A guardian can drop reflects, cure conditions and use protection on allies while being full zerker.

What people fail to understand is that being a support does not mean spamming heals in your cleric’s geared guardian. If you’re doing that you’re just playing badly and that’s the reason people don’t want you on their runs.

hendo.1940:

Intelligent positioning -snip-

Sure, you can do Wahlen from anywhere as long as you have reflects, probably not the best example. However, you can negate his aoe bombs for the most part by stacking behind the door if you lack reflects. Seems like negating a mechanic to me in that respect. Just my opinion though.

I won’t argue that intelligent positioning plays its part. That makes sense, and like I said, would be a mechanic (or part of a mechanic) in itself in some instances. Still, there is too much ‘run here, stack there, skip this, only kill this boss while ignoring everything else, then run through.’ It trivializes a lot of the work that was put into the design to begin with. (And then people kitten that it’s not hard enough.)

My idea of fun in doing the cannon part of Aetherblade is not running around like a headless chicken. -snip-

Yeah, I get not desiring to run around like a chicken with your head cut off. I also get the tedious time gate complaint; however, there’s only so much they can do to make things interesting. I find the aether fractal room with the electric walls to be great fun when I have a group that can do it. It’s a downright pain when I don’t.

The weapons testing fractal could be fun, if 1) you couldn’t just exploit it in the corner and 2) if there was a means of shutting off the various tests, some tangible task beyond ‘survive.’ Although, admitted for some people, that’s a hard enough task (guilty!).

The risk is still there, just people have (for some instances) learned to adapt. -snip-

I have pugged a couple of SE’s paths. Can’t recall if 1 was one of them or not at this point. It went smoothly enough, I thought. Good pugs maybe? Don’t know, it’s been a while.

I did do AC story and p1 last night. It did seem much easier than I remember it being… Scaling was something that needed adjusting to begin with; hopefully they fix it soon.

They’re playing how they want. -snip-

Yes, of course they can play how they want. The issue only really comes up when that’s all people want. That’s the overall concern (and complaint), that the game is too dps heavy and control / support are not useful / viable / are a hindrance because you can do all the same thing as a zerker (sometimes better) with no loss of dps. The three ‘roles’ need to be balanced, so that all are on equal footing, so to speak.

I do tend to make my own groups, and while they sometimes fill up quickly, most of the time it takes a little while. Probably due to when I can play, but not much I can do about that really. However, even going that route, and clearly marking my groups as ‘casual, non skipping, non speed clear’ etc, I still get the zerker meta, speed clear people, who then harass me because I don’t desire to play that way necessarily. That’s a totally different topic though.

The point of this game is that there is a damage/support/control trinity where each player is expected to do a bunch of each. -snip-

The issue is that a zerker can effectively support a team as much or better than someone specced for that role (support). So the zerker is going to get more love because they have no loss of dps, while the support specced character is told to hit the road because they don’t have enough damage output. The roles just need to be a little more balanced, so that the other aspects are more effective and desirable.

You’re not sidestepping mechanics. -snip-

In some instances, you are though. For example, before he was fixed, you could simply stand under the molten berserker (pre fractal) and completely negate his shockwave attack. Not to mention his stomping on your head because you were under him did no damage (or very little, been a while). This isn’t intelligent positioning, this is stacking to exploit a means of bypassing a mechanic of the fight. I suppose, yes, part of the issue is on Anet’s head in that instance since they didn’t take that into consideration, but that still doesn’t make it right on the players’ side.

-snip- ing for length

Harper.4173:

Control is not and will never be a thing in GW2 while :

1.The defiant buff still exists in the game
2.Bosses and enemies don’t have cast bars so we can see what they’re doing to interrupt it.

For the two reasons above control is useless. It’s dead, buried, let’s move on.

I guess learn to play move out from CoFp1?

Support.
You seem to think people are just focusing on damage without having support – and that part is just plain wrong.

I wish this was true, but sadly the average player has literally no idea about combo fields, reflects, stealth or anything. They just press1 and try to not die, because players spread misinformation both on the forums and ingame.

Support is and always was a critical part of GW2.
Blocks, reflects, stealth, protection – all are crucial elements of any speed run. If you think that zerker parties focus only on damage that’s wrong. You need the proper active damage mitigation aspects down if you’re going to attempt to burn a boss down in melee as a zerker team.

Thats what we talking about since … months.

So no – support has not been neglected – it’s just that people don’t understand that Your role in combat has nothing to do with the gear that you wear. An ele can support her party with water fields and might stacking as a full berserker.
A guardian can drop reflects, cure conditions and use protection on allies while being full zerker.

See above. I even see a staff pvt guardian in fractal lvl49 (i know, nobody cares) and when i asked why he uses staff on the molten duo, his answer was for support. After i asked what he means? Healing with the orb? Swiftness for nothing? Might when the ele in the party do it better for twice the duration? Or the CC ward which is useless here? You know what was the answer? A kick. And honestly, i wasn’t rude that time, but tl;dr, people aren’t aware of how support works at all. I still talk about the very average playerbase.

What people fail to understand is that being a support does not mean spamming heals in your cleric’s geared guardian. If you’re doing that you’re just playing badly and that’s the reason people don’t want you on their runs.

+1

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

1: Remove crit damage and precision from the game altogether.

What would you replace them with on direct damage gear? What would you replace them with in trait lines? Many answers to those questions would break the game in ways you have not, seemingly, considered. Making power the only direct damage stat would benefit some setups, but not others. Soldier gear would become as powerful as berserker, while having much greater survivability.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

2: Combine Ferocity and Precision into one stat.

You’d have to add something to 3-stat gear to replace the now-missing third stat. this would mean either: putting a useless, “kitten on a bull” stat like a condition stat on direct damage gear; or putting a survivability stat on glass cannon gear. You would, again, face the same problem of what to replace the missing stat with in trait lines.

Neither option would increase the desirability of various types of gear. Instead, depending on what you replaced the missing stats with, you’d get a new “best” gear which would either be Berserker or something else.

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

No, I just want variety so everyone can play how they want, without feeling pressured into one play style. That’s all.

Everyone can play how they want. Your proposed solutions would just change which direction the “pressure” pushes people. This is because that pressure is not a mechanics issue, it’s a people issue.

The same pressure is applied in metas in different games that use the trinity mechanics. There, it’s primarily directed at gear, as in, you’d better have the best. Build pressure there, is more usually directed at the DPS, who are pressured to use the optimal configuration. Rift had a very robust talent system that made many DPS builds possible, but the endgame meta pushed DPS into the one best option for their class, and in some cases ostracized classes from the DPS role. Those games certainly have different builds and gear, but really, the only diversity in small groups is needing a tank/healer, or in large needing multiples and maybe a buffer or controller — who, again, need to have the right build.

Some people have already mentioned this. If you want build variety in dungeons, change game mechanics so healing, crowd control, condi damage and perhaps tanking are viable.

Changing power and precision will not change the fact that healing scales poorly (and is not needed), crowd control is worthless against champions, condi goes into one pool, and tanking gives no benefit to the group.

Next question: are you ready for the next meta? In other words, if you change the current “best way to play” you’ll just create another one and it may be more restrictive than the current one. For example, it may be three condi eles and two healing guards ONLY!

Harper.4173:

hendo.1940:

The point of this game is that there is a damage/support/control trinity where each player is expected to do a bunch of each. I don’t see why people completely ignoring two aspects of this and focusing on one is something they should be rewarded for when it goes in complete contrast to the goal ANet had in mind.

Control is not and will never be a thing in GW2 while :

1.The defiant buff still exists in the game
2.Bosses and enemies don’t have cast bars so we can see what they’re doing to interrupt it.

You can do everything with every build. You can do Arah naked. People even solo Lupicus without Armor.

How much more diversity do you want?

Warriors still stun-lock you with 10k damages, thieves still backstab u 2 times and you’re dead.

Did this “Update” fix anything about DPS? NO!!

I ran zerker pre patch and I continue to run it post patch despite the nerf. Why? I dislike tanky/healing/condition/hybrid builds. To me, nothing could be more boring.

The only way Anet will get around the zerker meta is to bring back the holy trinity design, and the only real place that will work is in dungeons. From what I understand, most people don’t even like doing dungeons due to a number of factors, the main being some classes are alienated. Unless they introduce raids (which Im not opposed to), the holy trinity would be pointless.

So basically, zerker is here to stay and will always be the optimal gear unless they reduce the damage enough to equal that of your standard hybrid build.

Before they even attempt to balance stats or make other stats desirable, they need to actually balance the classes and make all classes desirable in their own way; not just warrior, the king of all.

In PvE, any build that dishes out the most DPS for any class that can do damage will always be the meta for that class.

Having said that, all 8 classes in GW2 are capable of dishing out damage. To make decision making process simpler, CC has little to no meaning in this game thanks to “Defiance” mechanism. Hence, the build that maximizes this damage-dishing business will always remain as a meta.

Therefore, in the realm of PvE, Zerker is here to stay.

CC has nothing to do with your gear choice in PvE. Defiance is not broken. You just don’t understand it apparently. You can remove it. Good groups do remove it. You can remove it in your cleric’s gear the same way players in zerker gear can remove it.

Why? Because you need to do so in order to time an interrupt of a skill that will disrupt group DPS. Arah Abom is a good example of this. CoE golem is as well. Just because you are spamming 1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5 whenever they are off CD, doesn’t mean that Defiance is the problem. Take a look sometime. If you don’t spam CC skills for no reason and get the boss to 18 stacks of Defiance and actually take the time to coordinate and time your CC to interrupt attacks, you will find that it’s very useful in PvE.

Right now, the only ways to make other builds “remotely viable”(as in, why not zerker) in PVE are:

• nerf dodging
• Add special conditions to mobs (silences, unavoidable X attack, etc)

etc. where “punch it in the face” is not the sole objective required to win.

(of course, this probably wont be received well. Any content that veers from “punch it in the face” is outright ignored in many cases. i.e. Ghost Eater Path)

As much as I wish that there would be a way to mitigate or change the mindset of “power is all you need”, it seems that people that actually think that way either have nothing alternative to challenge that claim or refuse to do anything that challenges that claim.

Or both.

Its a losing battle to overturn a meta. Play how you want. You’ll find people who play like they want. Let the Zerkers Zerk. You’d be surprised, many people who choose full zerker appreciate a bunker in their party that can stand in AOE circles and rev them when they down. Less vitality = faster rev.

Optimal is optimal, there’s nothing that can be said about that. punchitintheface is optimal.

Your objective is to have fun though.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

You’d be surprised, many people who choose full zerker appreciate a bunker in their party that can stand in AOE circles and rev them when they down. Less vitality = faster rev.

Quoted for lulz.

Saint.5647:

Harper.4173:

hendo.1940:

The point of this game is that there is a damage/support/control trinity where each player is expected to do a bunch of each. I don’t see why people completely ignoring two aspects of this and focusing on one is something they should be rewarded for when it goes in complete contrast to the goal ANet had in mind.

Control is not and will never be a thing in GW2 while :

1.The defiant buff still exists in the game
2.Bosses and enemies don’t have cast bars so we can see what they’re doing to interrupt it.

I agree with you – but here’s the catch. Coordinated groups in GW2 make up what 1-2% of all groups? Maybe more.

How many groups time their CCs to interrupt something? How many groups do that properly? Very few.

As far as the game at large is concerned it’s not even happening. Now you can argue that I’m wrong but sadly we all know I’m not. People just don’t CC. It’s a waste of your time in 95% of the situations.

RoyalPredator.9163:

Warriors still stun-lock you with 10k damages, thieves still backstab u 2 times and you’re dead.

Did this “Update” fix anything about DPS? NO!!

This update was not aimed at sPVP.

Harper.4173:

RoyalPredator.9163:

Warriors still stun-lock you with 10k damages, thieves still backstab u 2 times and you’re dead.

Did this “Update” fix anything about DPS? NO!!

This update was not aimed at sPVP.

I’m speaking about WWW

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Right now, the only ways to make other builds “remotely viable”(as in, why not zerker) in PVE are:

• nerf dodging
• Add special conditions to mobs (silences, unavoidable X attack, etc)

etc. where “punch it in the face” is not the sole objective required to win.

(of course, this probably wont be received well. Any content that veers from “punch it in the face” is outright ignored in many cases. i.e. Ghost Eater Path)

This… sort of. I’ve been saying since before the zerker nerf that the zerker meta is a symptom of a problem: unintuitive mob design. The way enemies are designed in this game is the same way you’d design them in a non-action MMO. Throw in active defenses, and that whole system goes out the window.

But… there is something that this post kind of brings up, and that is something a lot of players really hate: cheap effects. The way unblockable attacks are done in the game is really horrible. Currently, the only way to know if an attack is unblockable is to try to block it, then get smashed in the face anyway (Troll in HotW P1, for example). No one likes this, because it means you have to develop special tactics just for that one segment of the game, and this creates severe class segregation due to how that class handles particular situations.

Anet can make a diversified PVE meta using gimmicks and cheese, but these dance around the problem, and aren’t fun to play against at all. The correct way to do things is to build around a mechanic, not in spite of it.

Since there’s no trinity, just scrap all the gear except zerker for PvE

then just add new pvp gear (pvp power – reduce dmg from players by %x)