(edited by Healix.5819)
Zerker nerfed, allow us to swap asc gear
I’m pretty sure that when proponents of other sets asked for the gap to narrow, they weren’t just asking for berserker to be lowered — they were asking for others sets to be more effective/desirable. This is not what will happen. No mob changes, no adjustments to the effectiveness of other gear set-ups.
What ANet is doing is the functional equivalent of adding ~10% to the health of mobs — but only for dedicated DPS-max groups. The experience of non-berserker groups will not change at all. The experience of groups with a berserker or two will be slightly longer run times. Dedicated speed run groups are no more likely to be willing to accept soldier or cleric users than they were before.
This change is nothing other than ANet taking the easy way out by adjusting some numbers in tables — rather than accepting the harder task of actually fixing mobs to be more diverse, have better AI, and to demand more diversity because of their mechanics. It’s a cop-out.
They could be doing both you know. I assume you understand how hard AI in an open environment is to code. This means long development, and a massive amount of testing.
Open environment… we are talking fractals and dungeons as well… that’s where there are speed runs.. not in open world. There is no reason not to fix 5 man group dungeons for a more diverse build/class make ups.
How would you fix it, then? I’m genuinely interested.
Also, Mob AI is kind of a global thing.
Do you think it would be possible for mob AI to be altered in dungeons ? I know that setting the game to hardmode altered mob AI in GW1. Do you think the varying AI based on instance settings could be managed here ?
Thing is I’d want better AI in the game as a whole, not just in my preferred play ground.
I actually enjoyed when mobs could kick my skrit in playing GW1 and the first and second betas of GW2.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
it’s effectively a 10% drop. the sky isn’t falling. the game will update, we will all log in and play and that will be that.
But how does lowering crit damage help make the game better? Will that change make it so conditions stack better and are not wiped off so easily. Nope. Will that make the bosses something more interesting than red rings to avoid and huge one shot cleaves etc? Nope. Will it help with the poor rewards for most fractals? Nope. Will it simply make the already simplistic low reward bosses just a little bit longer? Yep.
Thats all this does, it simply makes the game a little more grind, which is just what it needed………….
Gear stat swaps would realistically be switching from stuff like Assassins into Berserker, not the other way around.
this example is just cementing that there will be more of a stat prioritization on power over precision, which is true. Precision’s value will go down proportionally to the value of how much your crit damage loses value.
I do think it’s worth noting, however, that precision’s decrease in value in that way can be offset by the changes in proc-based sigils in certain builds.
Semi off-topic, is there any summary of all changes mentioned in that live stream? I’m kinda lost with the crit nerf ._.
I think what is trying to be said here is that this nerf changes absolutely nothing.
Nobody is really complaining about a nerf to DPS. I mean sure it sucks Balthazar’s Balls, but let’s be honest, this just means for an efficient party everyone HAS to go full berserker to make encounters take a reasonable amount of time.
This hasn’t decreased Berserker spec dominance, it’s simply just reinforced it. This doesn’t make support, control, tanking or conditions any better. This has just gone “now zerkers will do slightly less damage”. That doesn’t fix the problem.
Nerfing straight DPS specs will never solve the problem. The problem of Berserker dominance lies in the enemy AI, Stats and general enemy encounters
Now I can understand, to an extent, why changing straight crit damage to Ferocity could make sense, it allows for slightly better scaling and brings crit damage in line with every other stat. From a purely spreadsheet based perspective, it makes sense. It still doesn’t accomplish what their apparent aim was, to decrease dominance of zerk specs and allow for further party comp diversity.
noice
I’m pretty sure that when proponents of other sets asked for the gap to narrow, they weren’t just asking for berserker to be lowered — they were asking for others sets to be more effective/desirable. This is not what will happen. No mob changes, no adjustments to the effectiveness of other gear set-ups.
What ANet is doing is the functional equivalent of adding ~10% to the health of mobs — but only for dedicated DPS-max groups. The experience of non-berserker groups will not change at all. The experience of groups with a berserker or two will be slightly longer run times. Dedicated speed run groups are no more likely to be willing to accept soldier or cleric users than they were before.
This change is nothing other than ANet taking the easy way out by adjusting some numbers in tables — rather than accepting the harder task of actually fixing mobs to be more diverse, have better AI, and to demand more diversity because of their mechanics. It’s a cop-out.
They could be doing both you know. I assume you understand how hard AI in an open environment is to code. This means long development, and a massive amount of testing.
Could be? Yes. Are? Maybe, though I doubt it. Why bill this change as an adjustment of the meta to make other builds more desirable? Was that just a misstatement?
This thread is now a dead issue. There will be no “change berserker to something else” feature.
In pve people will still run zerker and not support beacuse best way to help is to kill fast. In wvw people will still not run support because there is no incentive of reward. good job anet, u just made it so we have to waste more time in dungeons and the already ridiculously long fractals while gaining nothing in terms of diversity.
Valik Shin
Darkwood Legion [DARK]
Yak’s Bend
Darkwood Legion [DARK]
Yak’s Bend
This change was never intended to fix the “Berserker meta”. Other changes will do that.
This change was just about future-proofing Critical-Damage so that it works better with upcoming new content and possible level-cap increases.
I’ve always thought that the general group content needed to be more demanding of PvE players.
I’m pretty sure that when proponents of other sets asked for the gap to narrow, they weren’t just asking for berserker to be lowered — they were asking for others sets to be more effective/desirable. This is not what will happen. No mob changes, no adjustments to the effectiveness of other gear set-ups.
What ANet is doing is the functional equivalent of adding ~10% to the health of mobs — but only for dedicated DPS-max groups. The experience of non-berserker groups will not change at all. The experience of groups with a berserker or two will be slightly longer run times. Dedicated speed run groups are no more likely to be willing to accept soldier or cleric users than they were before.
This change is nothing other than ANet taking the easy way out by adjusting some numbers in tables — rather than accepting the harder task of actually fixing mobs to be more diverse, have better AI, and to demand more diversity because of their mechanics. It’s a cop-out.
They could be doing both you know. I assume you understand how hard AI in an open environment is to code. This means long development, and a massive amount of testing.
We already have AI in the heart of the Mists that dodges, cleans conditions and uses more than that one skill whenever it’s off its CD.
We had smarter mobs in the first beta (whose flaw of being turned harmless by AoE could easily be fixed by allowing them to attack on the move just like us).
Honestly they’ve got a lot covered already, and I’m sure that many others like me will greatly appreciate enemies that require a different approach than huddling in a corner.
Really, I think the major reason for the name and number change is so that it can be tweaked without having to change the displayed number, just like all the other stats in the game.
I’m pretty sure that when proponents of other sets asked for the gap to narrow, they weren’t just asking for berserker to be lowered — they were asking for others sets to be more effective/desirable. This is not what will happen. No mob changes, no adjustments to the effectiveness of other gear set-ups.
What ANet is doing is the functional equivalent of adding ~10% to the health of mobs — but only for dedicated DPS-max groups. The experience of non-berserker groups will not change at all. The experience of groups with a berserker or two will be slightly longer run times. Dedicated speed run groups are no more likely to be willing to accept soldier or cleric users than they were before.
This change is nothing other than ANet taking the easy way out by adjusting some numbers in tables — rather than accepting the harder task of actually fixing mobs to be more diverse, have better AI, and to demand more diversity because of their mechanics. It’s a cop-out.
They could be doing both you know. I assume you understand how hard AI in an open environment is to code. This means long development, and a massive amount of testing.
We already have AI in the heart of the Mists that dodges, cleans conditions and uses more than that one skill whenever it’s off its CD.
We had smarter mobs in the first beta (whose flaw of being turned harmless by AoE could easily be fixed by allowing them to attack on the move just like us).Honestly they’ve got a lot covered already, and I’m sure that many others like me will greatly appreciate enemies that require a different approach than huddling in a corner.
Call me a hardcore elitist (lol) but I enjoyed when roaming the field was a dangerous proposition.
I’d suggest a hardcore server but that’d split the player base too much.
“I didn’t buy into GW2 being the second coming of christ.
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I just wanted a AAA MMO with no sub made by ArenaNet. And it’s awesome.”
I enjoyed when roaming the field was a dangerous proposition.
As did I.
i dont think i get this ferocity bs… is it just a new name for “crit damage nerf” ? or is it a diferent stat??
Oh it’s most assuredly the best of both worlds. A name change and a flat decrease.
“We are adding a new stat – ferocity (kinda like how precision works with critical hit chance). All gear/traits will be converted from critical damage to ferocity. Points in ferocity will increase your critical damage. It will have a new formula for the stat conversion, the formula will be slightly reduced. "
“10% reduction in damage for maxed out full DPS builds. "
http://dulfy.net/2014/01/17/gw2-ready-up-skill-and-balance-developer-livestream-notes/
Connection error(s) detected. Retrying…
Grats! This sure is going to make me pick up Clerics, Soldiers and Magi! Good job ArenaNet, diversity has been promoted!
/endsarcasm.
Actually less diverse now, professions that used parts of Assassin over Berserker, such as Guardian, Warrior & Ele, to min/max are now just going to sit in full Berserker.
But even as a whole, this is a fair change for regular dungeons, maybe players will have to take note of mechanics of bosses now, because as it was the “risk” by dropping the defensive stats was nowhere near the reward obtained from the offensive stats.
This little change could be enough alteration to burst damage of groups that, for example, they now need to acknowledge Kholer’s spin, and may have to find a source of vigor/extra dodge for Subject Alpha.
Nothing will change really. Most meta PvE builds already take vigor and dodges into consideration. On top of that people who use these builds and play really well would not waste dodges, invuls, blocks, and aegis so it will not really have an effect on them. Pretty much people who use these builds already know what they need to do to negate damage from a specific boss. Sure ArenaNet reducing critical damage will increase the run times slightly but honestly if say Subject Alpha gets an extra hit in it will not make a difference for coordinated/guild groups. They will get through it easily. I think the changes has an effect more on PuGs and average players with odd group comps or builds.
Dedicated speed run groups are no more likely to be willing to accept soldier or cleric users than they were before
They will be less likely to take non-zerkers because the nerf means they need more damage.
It looks like the purpose of the nerf is to make zerker groups deal with boss mechanics more than before by making fights longer.
Messing with the damage output, was a really bad “solution”. As long as the skills remain as they are, its gonna be hell, for everyone trying to play differently.
NOTE:if you want to see my solution for achieving diversity in builds, here’s a link:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/PVE-Variety-Better-build-system-DPS-fix/first#post3508899
This thread is now a dead issue. There will be no “change berserker to something else” feature.
Where was this said?
Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Gosh again this.Stop making new threads when there already exist a post on exactly the same topic.Read the forum and post in the appropriate thread.
TxS – Tequatl Slayer Alliance (EU)
Wait, so after 30 days of crafting for my Celestial armor they are going to nerf it? How is it considered OP exactly? Most classes lose a lot of beneficial stats … the only class that I found that even benefits fully from using Celestial armor was the Elementalist and perhaps the Guardian.
80 Elementalist (RotV), 80 Mesmer (RotV)
80 Necromancer (IRNY), 80 Guardian (IRNY)
GW2: it’s like DAoC, but for the WoW crowd.
80 Necromancer (IRNY), 80 Guardian (IRNY)
GW2: it’s like DAoC, but for the WoW crowd.
For reference:
(Ascended) Celestial 2H weapon + Celestial armour set gives +230 all stats and 30% critical damage on live.
This will be converted to +230 all stats + 230 ferocity after change.
(Ascended) Berserker 2H weapon + Berserker armour set gives +517 power +369 precision and 27% critical damage on live.
This will be converted to +517 power + 369 precision and +369 ferocity after change.
Wow this is ridiculous, they have to give celestial armor and weapon bearers the chance to swap.
Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro
Is simple: stop DEBUFFING. Players dont like to hear “you will do less damage” “you will now loot less” “you will now be less interested in our game”
Stop taking things AWAY from players.
For goodness sakes, why was it IMPOSSIBLE to just freakin BUFF the other stat combos??? Slightly BUFF the power/prec/crit dmg, or whatever else is viable, for the other stat sets?!?!
Abominable decision here. Wonder how many will consider this their last straw with Anet.
Another example: (quote from dulfy) “We moved stat weights to later bonuses (i.e. 4, 5, 6) so people don’t use mix-match rune bonuses.”
Why? Let people be creative and mix and match. Why the hell would you do this?
You might as well not let us mix and match armor skins.
While you’re at it, only 1 dye color per armor set.
Gosh this game has come a long way…down.
They should just do away with runes and give us a ruin accessory slot that we plug one item into that has the whole set bonus on it if they don’t want people mixing and matching.
Connection error(s) detected. Retrying…
So, instead of debuffing one profession they should raise all the stats to that, and make all the content in the entire game trivial and meaningless to everyone?
If something is out of whack by being two powerful, it’s not only less work to debuff that one thing, but think about it.
If you increase everything you also have to increase the power of all the enemies. Do you know how much work that would be?
So when they added ascended gear (something most people were against and it went against the core ideals of the game), it has caused an issue in which too much damage is being done with crit gear, so now they need to undo the damage that everyone pointed out long before it became one.
Yep, sounds like a typical ANet patch. Lets see all the mistakes they make this time, so we know what will be “fixed” this time next year.
I am going back to bed………
Is simple: stop DEBUFFING. Players dont like to hear “you will do less damage” “you will now loot less” “you will now be less interested in our game”
Stop taking things AWAY from players.
For goodness sakes, why was it IMPOSSIBLE to just freakin BUFF the other stat combos??? Slightly BUFF the power/prec/crit dmg, or whatever else is viable, for the other stat sets?!?!
Abominable decision here. Wonder how many will consider this their last straw with Anet.
Another example: (quote from dulfy) “We moved stat weights to later bonuses (i.e. 4, 5, 6) so people don’t use mix-match rune bonuses.”
Why? Let people be creative and mix and match. Why the hell would you do this?
You might as well not let us mix and match armor skins.
While you’re at it, only 1 dye color per armor set.Gosh this game has come a long way…down.
The only thing I agree with in your post is the part about moving stat weights to later bonuses. That sort of kills diversity.
Oh so my 125% critic damage gets reduced to 115% yeah i will be so changing my setup /sarcasm
ranger zerker needs some pet love after this. This just reduces ranger hard dmg by 10% which does not pair well with the current pet dmg output. crit dmg kinda is what made it more viable for rangers to run zerker in pve, zerker ranger is still not a strong option at all in pvp.
Giant spiders of the world are just misunderstood creatures, they love to snuggle too.
ranger zerker needs some pet love after this. This just reduces ranger hard dmg by 10% which does not pair well with the current pet dmg output. crit dmg kinda is what made it more viable for rangers to run zerker in pve, zerker ranger is still not a strong option at all in pvp.
You get an extra upgrade for your 2 hand so in short this nerf is really very minor and its not gonna change anything
True story
(edited by Moderator)
ranger zerker needs some pet love after this. This just reduces ranger hard dmg by 10% which does not pair well with the current pet dmg output. crit dmg kinda is what made it more viable for rangers to run zerker in pve, zerker ranger is still not a strong option at all in pvp.
You get an extra upgrade for your 2 hand so in short this nerf is really very minor and its not gonna change anything
That’s true for other classes, but rangers who want the best damage run 1h Sword.
If you’re talking about people running 2 handers, they aren’t concerned at maximizing their damage output int he first place.
The doesn’t seem that point of this nerf was to make other stats more viable (it doesn’t even come close to doing that).
It looks like the nerf was to slow zerkers down in PvE content so that the party has to deal with the boss skills instead of burning down the bosses before the bosses get much of their skills off.
Developers stated that they’re targeting a 10% reduction in damage for the best damage setup (mix of ascended berserker/assassin gear, full DPS traits, critical damage food, ruby orbs, precision infusions). One can infer from this that they’re looking at approximately 13 ferocity to 1% critical damage ratio (you can do the math yourself). Let’s see how this affects various gear setups (assuming no sigils, no food, and no runes, and no infusions, 25 might stacks & fury). Compared to live values, this means:
Full berserker (30 precision traits, 30 ferocity traits) – 7.22% nerf
Full assassin (30 precision traits, 30 ferocity traits) – 7.83% nerf
Celestial weapon & armour + berserker trinkets (30 precision traits, 30 ferocity traits) – 11.36% nerf
Full celestial + berserker backpiece (30 precision traits, 30 ferocity traits) – 11.08% nerf
Full knight (30 precision traits, 30 ferocity traits) – 3.22% nerf
Full knight (0 ferocity traits) – no change
Full cavalier/valkyrie (30 precision traits, 30 ferocity traits) – 5.04% nerf
Full cavalier/valkyrie (0 precision traits, 0 ferocity traits) – 2.59% nerf
Full soldier (30 precision traits, 30 ferocity traits) – 2.05% nerf
Full soldier (o ferocity traits) – no change
Other prefixes – no change unless traited in ferocity (critical damage) line
As you can see, the nerfs to celestial gear completely dwarfs the nerfs to other gear setups, even though it is far from being the best DPS gear. In case celestial gear is being looked at in conjunction with ferocity change, I’ve done some theorycrafting to see what kind of numbers will be needed in order for them to retain their current strength relative to other prefixes. Presently, the ratio of +all stat to a minor stat is 5:8. With the high critical damage bonus celestial gear provides, one wearing full celestial gear is able to achieve DPS numbers comparable to that attained by someone wearing full knight gear (slightly less without full buffs, slightly more with 25 might stacks & fury). Of course, celestial gear provides significantly less toughness compared to full knight, however it somewhat makes up for this rather glaring deficiency by having a little bit of vitality and healing power as well as condition damage. This, coupled with flexibility in build style that celestial gear offers, is what motivated people (myself included) to spend time and gold in obtaining it. With that in mind, I propose that +all stat to a minor stat ratio change from 5:8 to 3:4 when ferocity change goes live. This means that celestial weapon + armour will give 276 to all stats (including ferocity) instead of giving 230 to all stats + 30% critical damage, and full celestial gear minus backpiece will give 532 to all stats instead of 446 to all stats + 59% critical damage. Such change will affect the above setup thusly:
Celestial weapon & armour + berserker trinkets (30 precision traits, 30 ferocity traits) – 7.42% damage nerf in exchange for 5.66% effective HP buff
Full celestial + berserker backpiece (30 precision traits, 30 ferocity traits) – 3.28% damage nerf in exchange for 9.37% effective HP buff
This will keep celestial gear competitive with knight gear in terms of DPS (obviously, knight gear itself is unaffected by ferocity change), which is where it’s at now. The tradeoff between offensive and defensive power is not ideal, but I feel most people will be able to live with it since the overall power of celestial gear will remain largely the same with this change.
This thread is now a dead issue. There will be no “change berserker to something else” feature.
Where was this said?
Read the livestream notes on dulfy.
http://dulfy.net/2014/01/17/gw2-ready-up-skill-and-balance-developer-livestream-notes/
My statement is an extrapolation — but I don’t think they’re going to allow people to switch stats because of a 10% nerf. Call me wrong if you like.
I hope something is addressed in regards to this.
My Necromancer is my main character and she uses the damage hybrid build (Condition and burst) and relies heavily on celestial gear.
Fairy Tael – Elementalist
My ascended celestial kitted WvW s-ele is kittened.
(edited by Ulmir.5094)
Oh, I forgot to mention that the effective HP (measure of HP x armour) increase in the above post is for elementalist in full glass cannon spec and therefore represents best case scenario. Other classes / spec will see much less effective % gains. All other numbers remain valid for all classes.
thx you arena net instead to buff outer builds you destroy the best one for dps ;D ty very much u got no clue where to place the game in pve 10 % dmg less is to much iv invested 1 yEAR of playing in some of the gear to get berserker and this is slap in the face DONT nerf the zeker buff the outer builds nerf is the moust stupid THING u can do pls thing about it if they are week and nobody rolling them fix them DONT broke the good things in the game and sorry for bad english
So when they added ascended gear (something most people were against and it went against the core ideals of the game), it has caused an issue in which too much damage is being done with crit gear, so now they need to undo the damage that everyone pointed out long before it became one.
Yep, sounds like a typical ANet patch. Lets see all the mistakes they make this time, so we know what will be “fixed” this time next year.
I am going back to bed………
+1 Best post of the thread award.
i7 3770k oc 4.5 H100i(push/pull) 8gb Corsair Dominator Asus P877V-LK
intel 335 180gb/intel 320 160gb WD 3TB Gigabyte GTX G1 970 XFX XXX750W HAF 932
intel 335 180gb/intel 320 160gb WD 3TB Gigabyte GTX G1 970 XFX XXX750W HAF 932
Celestial gear getting nerfed seems fine to me…and berserker gear? Everyone’s got that stuff. I’m kinda glad that it’s getting changed to ferocity, because it’ll make people change up their builds and stats.
Celestial gear getting nerfed seems fine to me…and berserker gear? Everyone’s got that stuff. I’m kinda glad that it’s getting changed to ferocity, because it’ll make people change up their builds and stats.
Not really. Nothing has changed to make other stats more attractive (in PVE). It just nerfs berserker/crit damage without any compensation. It’ll still be the best gear for dungeons/PVE, but now everything is a bit slower.
I was hoping they’d make tank/support builds viable instead of just making zerker builds worse…
I don’t think they’re going to allow people to switch stats because of a 10% nerf. Call me wrong if you like.
^this they’ll use similar language to when they changed karma boosters.
Then you’ll have to spend 6 months + re-gearing to the new meta which they will then nerf in a new balance patch so you always have to keep grinding.
i wish the devs had a consistent vision and didn’t push out content they know is flawed
An already terrible gear set can’t be “gged” or “nerfed” because it sucked in the first place.
Short version ^
I’ve spent hours of min-maxing in gw2skills and the conclusion I came to was that you should never, ever slot even a single piece of celestial gear. Inter-stat synergy means that stacking a smaller number of stats to a higher level is always much stronger than getting a tiny amount of each stat. Any investment in celestial has always been, and will remain a waste, barring a large buff in the future.
Grats! This sure is going to make me pick up Clerics, Soldiers and Magi! Good job ArenaNet, diversity has been promoted!
/endsarcasm.
Actually less diverse now, professions that used parts of Assassin over Berserker, such as Guardian, Warrior & Ele, to min/max are now just going to sit in full Berserker.
But even as a whole, this is a fair change for regular dungeons, maybe players will have to take note of mechanics of bosses now, because as it was the “risk” by dropping the defensive stats was nowhere near the reward obtained from the offensive stats.
This little change could be enough alteration to burst damage of groups that, for example, they now need to acknowledge Kholer’s spin, and may have to find a source of vigor/extra dodge for Subject Alpha.
Your last paragraph really sums up why they’re making this change. Thanks for pointing it out so well.
Just for clarification, the main issue is not that things are getting nerfed. The issue is that celestial is getting nerfed harder than berserker.
If you can read this then it is proof that ArenaNet’s moderators just, kind and fair.
And after that 10% nerf? Nothing changes. And then what? Another 10%?
Agreed with OP. I build my nacro as power build and accumulated laurels and spent on ascended trinkets toward that build. Now Anet just changed like that then I want to switched to cond semi bunker build. I want refund on my laurels at least.
Wrath T – Asura Necro | Don Hohenheim – Norn Guard | Bellcroxx – Human Mesmer
[DKJ] – Jade Quarry
[DKJ] – Jade Quarry