Guild Wars 2

I fed up with this berserker stuff. I’m relatively new in the game, I’m playing it for almost 1 year, but today I had an experiance, which was so dissapointinting. So the stroy:

I went to a dungeon (Twiligth arbor up/fwd), and my teammates died a lot of times. I said them they shouldn’t use the zerker meta, they getting to be too squishy with it and can’t deal with the dmg. Of course there was a zerker fun guys, who explained me we died because of lack of dps. WHAT THE BLOODY HELL? Everybody in zerker (expect me, I have 4 celectial, rest zerker) and he said we don’t have enough dmg. They dying from 1 shot, but yeah, as he said: if EVERYBODY would have full zerker in the team we wouldn’t die. I thought, OK, lets move on. At the near of the end, they died again, I was only alive and they kicked me, saying we need full meta zerker. Because I was the problem there, I wasnt had full zerker gear and didn’t use the full meta build so we didn’t have enough dps and that’s why we died. (I’ve made the dungeon about 50 times before, you can be sure I was very good, I have very good dps without full zerker.)

I’m sick from this. What is this, why am I forced to a not even fun build and gear setup.?ArenaNet have to end this madness. We have to kill this mentality in game. Enemies needs more dmg to kill the zerkers instanly, or at least need some tank to the team who mitigate the dmg, and kind of healers as well. I’m not saying making another wow, just don’t do like this. Make sure about not the berserker the fastest way to go through a dungeon and pls SAY IT TO THE PLAYER BASE, communicate to them, explain it, make a post about it. Because they are still in a belive about zerker zerker zerker. They can’t make a build alone, just using ugly meta and blaming us for not using it.

Anyway, I don’t understand how zerker can be this good. People have a lack of surviveability, so they’re falling more times, they loose dps. And teammates looses dps as well, because they have to help. But actually in a lot of situation when a zerker starts revieve an another zerker, he’s falling too, it’s just so anoying.

And what zerker boys saying: you have to be fast, good, with good reflexes, you can dodge, WITHOUT A SINGLE MISTAKE, and this way you’re gona have huge dps. I’ts not bad at all, but forcing everybody to use it maybe not the best deceison. I’m a hardcore player, in every game I want to be the best, but I want to be unique as well. In spite of this there are players (like my girlfriend who’s palying with me) who doesn’t have this good reflexes, abilities and knowledge about what stats they need, just go up to the internet, wathcing what is the current meta, oh, berserker gear with full dps stuffs, allright. And they’re falling with it so hard.

I beg you, kill the zerker and wash our pain away. Make us more reliable choices to make our own build, without chains and meta stuffs, and make them as much as good, if not better than this. (You can still hold the zerker just give us better alternatives.)

Solution:
Make tanks, healers and overall supports more viable. They have to be a good choice anD have to grant access some utilies to go faster through the dungeons (and not just migth stacking and stealth). Because all about the time, that’s why zerker is exsist. Or make the zerkers much more vulnerable. Really, a single mistake: die, standing in an aoe: die, getting shot from an enemy: half life, this way, tanks would be viable choices. Maybe there should be some dmg redirection mechanic for every tank profession, and good aoe heals as well (like wash the pain away). For making tanks even better, create some aggro system, which not based on dmg dealt, but some abilities (tank abilities) should generate more, maybe it should be based on thougness and vitality. (Thoughness + vitality) * (dmg dealt/2) = aggro dealing to enemy. (I’m a programmer, i know this is the easiest way to deal with the problem ).

I hope elite specs will partially solve this problem, but still need some upgrade for dungeons and fractals to support this playstyles.

Sry for long post, tl;dr: I HATE ZERKER META.

either you played badly or they. Group broke up. Your and their playstyle apparently don´t mix well. you probably will not team with them again. Problem solved, zerker ok. Credits.

Algreg.3629:

either you played badly or they. Group broke up. Your and their playstyle apparently don´t mix well. you probably will not team with them again. Problem solved, zerker ok. Credits.

Ok, my playstlye doesn’t fit with zerker team, and I’ll never play with them again, but EVERYBODY play with zerker. So you’re saying, if I’m playing a unique way (which is good anyway) I’ll never get a team who can deal with me. Of course in most of the times we can do dungeons easly, just getting so bored about this playstyle, we need more alternatives, and changing, and everybody should look around his build. They shouls ask about themselves, really like their builds? Fun to play? Or just forced to use it, because everybody use it. We should start creating unique ones, creative ones, and that’s why we have to kill the meta. Don’t say me it’s fun, if everybody use the same gear.

Like I posted in the other thread. If you don’t like a certain stat combo, form a group forbidding it.

You got kicked out of a dungeon party cause your group sucked and thought that a long whine thread in the forums was the best way to go? gg!

I never understand threads like these, as you somehow feel that everyone else should accept your build and style while you don’t do the same for others.

Meta is fine(but requires some know how), so are other builds as well. What makes the difference is skill and synergy. Lack both and no build in the world will save you.

Sounds like you got matched with a bad pug. There are bad pugs in phiw lfg’s as well… but mostly zerk ’’meta’’ groups generally have a know it all attitude. It’s amazing the number of ZERK META OMG groups ive been matched with who were super toxic and blaming everyone for all of the world’s problems while being so obvious they have zero understanding of the basics…

Having zerk gear on isn’t an instant win button if you can’t stack might/blast them fire fields (lay them down in the first place) or if you can’t avoid the damage.

I guess is what i’m trying to say is your dungeon experience would greatly benefit from running your dungeons/fracs with a group of people who know what they are doing.

My story was just an example for a problem. Because it is. You can be sure there is a lot of player (most of player), who think: the meta is the only way, and players without is just noobs, because they don’t understand the game… This is the current attitude and it isn’t healthy. They wont come to the forum, they wont start arguing about it, just believing the s.hh.t. So we have to make moves, to saying to them: this isn’t the only way. And have to create mechanins in the game to support this idea. And that’s why I started this conversation. Anyway I gave some solution and idea too.

Tomorrow I’ll create a group for dungeon: No meta, only unique builds.
This gona be good at start.

Anyway, zerker is only, ONLY good because the system of the game supports it. It’s not about skill or combo. If every profession’s best gear is zerker there is a problem.

Good day horvgab!

I understand your issue but I do not understand the following: why do you label a whole community, why do you label a whole type of playstyle, based on a few individuals, why do you wish for a style that would promote staleness, more segregation and lack of viability (trinity).

Your hate does not help the community at all and your trinity proposal is even more problematic. No one is forcing you to run anything, you are doing it yourself.

First of all, did you read the LFG you are joining? Out of respect for them and for you. Did they state “meta”, “zerk” etc? If yes, and knowing the fact that you do not like this playstyle, you showed hypocrisy since you joined while not respecting their demands. It was your choice. If not and it was a simple “all paths” or something along this lines, then I apologize on their behalf. Please bare in mind that every community has its extremists and it saddens me when persons like you are having this bad encounters.

Because the majority of time it leads to aggressive thoughts in regards of that community. Zerk is bad, it destroys the game etc. This is simply not the truth. Berserker is simply a playstyle that some people enjoy and others do not. We must understand that the game offers us the tools to really play how we want. In other MMOs if you do not fit in a certain playstyle, and you are getting kicked, you cannot open the LFG, made your own add, with your own playstyle and still be successful in that content. This game allows you too and this is the beauty of it.

You had a bad encounter? Block those players to avoid interaction (no, the hardcore community does not pride itself with these kind of players), open the LFG and state your add. You will meet like-minded people and even future friends! Some people (majority or not is irrelevant) prefer the berserker style. It is all about maxing your damage and supporting the party at the same time with the cost of “1 shot” from almost anything. The one shots are avoided from the said support, from your dodge, from learning the enemy tells, and from the time needed to drain its HP to 0.

I am part of these people. I am having the fun. I feel good, I met and made friends. I do not join parties I do not fit in and thus I have no relation to people that play differently than me. Thus no conflict. What you met are a bunch of extremists, that should not dictate your view on a playstyle or a whole community.

I have been in situations in which people that do not fit my play-style joined my party. They though I would not notice. I did and politely discuss with them just as I do with you. They all understood my POV, thanked me, left, made their own party and had fun! How do I know? They PM back saying they found a very quick like minded party. They did not believe they could because many people “scared” them. Some were “elitists” some were “casuals” it seems.

As you can see, the extremists from both groups are fortunately very few, but unfortunately very vocal. The persons you meet I like to call them “wanna-be”. They follow the meta theoretically (gear/trait/weapon/food setup) but 0% practically. Berserker, in order to survive the one-shots (not including support) is meant for people who know the boss, its tells and the encounter. You can put a suit and think you are special. Same here, you can put berserker and think you are pro. No you are not, and when situations like these arise, along with aggressiveness, a bad image in the eyes of players like you is created, and that is sad.

My advice would be make your own parties if you are using LFG, do not let your image be dictated by stereotypes, respect and you will be respected and do not create false impression for yourself. I am zerker, I speed run and I am a minmaxer. I am having fun every second and I am sure by following some advices and the in-game tools you will too!

Hope to see you in game!

When people blame their death on too low dps just remind them that solos are done in zerker as well.

Coldtart.4785:

When people blame their death on too low dps just remind them that solos are done in zerker as well.

Quote for Truth

Honestly what happened was they wanted to run the zerker meta, cause they heard it was good, but they didn’t do any research on the actual dungeon and where to stack/how to play the fights. Zerker meta works because people know how to bend the fights to make it work. It doesn’t work when randomly walking into something without knowledge. The whole idea of why zerker works is because you stack, and even if you go down, the massive aoe on all mobs will rez you instantly, or the 4 people standing on top of you will.

One thing, this topic belongs in the general GW2 forum.

horvgab.4879:

Anyway, zerker is only, ONLY good because the system of the game supports it. It’s not about skill or combo. If every profession’s best gear is zerker there is a problem.

I feel for you but that in no way indicates there is a problem. The fact you feel this is an issue shows you don’t understand how the game is designed and how you can tune your gear around your skill and not the other way around.

Dear Lux Dominatoris,

As I said, my story was an example (true, but it doesn’t matter that much). I’m watching this as a software developer. You are a zerker as you said, speed runner, high risk high reward player. No problem with this. But the only way to do this in this game binded to the following 3 thing: power, precision, ferocity. You can’t use conditions, you can’t be tanky, you can’t be true support, you have to go power to reach your goal. And this is the problem.

Ok, you can say, you can find a condi based team. Make a video about, how much time you need to get one (I bet at least 30 minute without friends) (and everybody in team have to have a decent usable condi build). Belive me ppl only know this. The majority of players playing metazerk only (especially the skilled ones). Hard to get sikilled ppl from the another side.

Think yourself in a situation as a new player. In the most ad in LFG you see, zerk, if you not see, they think you’ll be zerk, because everybody is zerk. So you start to build yourself to it, because community force you, other way, they just dont want to play with you. Of course, build your own society. Man, it’s not that easy, especially for a newbie. So the new player gona be zerk and until he not realise that this isn’t the only way, will become flamer againts anything new. This attitude is a problem.

There is 8 profession in game, why everybody uses the same stats? Why can’t a condi build fit to a zerker one? Why an overall celestial build can’t fit to it?

As an eye of a developer it’s a mistake from developers. If you’re saying you’re zerker, its only about stats, not a play style. If it’s a play style why other stats doesn’t support it? Why we are forced to use not fun skills? Why we can’t ,,zerk" with a condi build? Because the fault of the system. The system of the game gives the potential to the zerk. Other builds should be more viable. Thats all. I don’t want to kill the berzerk now , my rage has ended, but we need better alternatives.

Glad to see you are calmer. How fast a LFG can fill? Instantly, i always see all welcome poping in and out. You cannot zerk with a condi because the term to zerk was created from the armor stat combination of the same name. You can sinister with condi I guess and tank with Nomad.

You should understand one thing. If you run zerker you aim (successfully or not) for the lowest time completion for that said content. Everywhere, in VR and real life there will be an optimal/best/fastest way and only one when trying to accomplish a certain task. As an example for the sake of an example I try to do my laundry. I can do it manually, do it as good as I want but takes 2 hrs. I can do it with a manual washing machine and it will take 1 hr or an automatic machine for 45 mins. This is Guild Wars 2. Some people (majority or not) prefer the automatic. Some the manual, some the manual-machine. All can do and will do the same task but at different times, the only reason zerker is preferred by some is because they care for only one thing – time. You cannot create equality because then the difference would only be in names. Why 3 sets?

Throw a look in the fractal forum, a very predominant user made a tank + 4 zerk party for high level fractals. It’s awesome. It works, they are having fun. Just an example. No one is forcing anyone, players make their choice. I doubt a new player cares about dungeons anyway, and if he cares so early then he is used in searching when an “endgame build” is presented to him.

Why condi/cele cannot fit an zerker one? Because with zerk i hit for 1k in 1s. With condi I hit for 1k in 2s, 1s being for the buildup. With cele i hit for 0.5k in 1s because of the stat difference. If my goal is the shortest completion time, and having fun with that, I will pick zerk in this situation.

You will never-ever have 2 sets doing things equally because they would only be one set then. As for the attitude, as I said, you can find the negative one in all kind of groups, not just one.

It only comes down to time. Some people care and some do not. Those who care have find out zerker is the best. Some use this setup without knowing how to and then they are toxic. Not the stat problem, not the build problem, not anyone’s problem except that person’s.

You cannot say other builds should be viable when they already are. With nomad/cleric you can afk Example! . With the recent condi changes you do not have a cap on them. Keep on spamming with friends. WwW meta was never zerker and never will be (arguably on roamers). Please, berserker is not a problem, just a playstyle some people prefer. Just play your way with people that share the same mind set. It is just a click away. No exageration.

Whenever I run a dungeon, I always advertise “This is not a speed run, all classes/builds/stat combos are welcome.” Rarely does my LFG take more than a minute to fill, and much of the time the dungeon runs smoothly. I’ve actually gotten a lot of whispers thanking me for advertising that way.

Who cares about meta anyway, i always make my own groups.
Just made a fractal group for lvl 38 fractal, had 2 rangers, one of wich was a tanky greatsword ranger, 1 necro and 1 d/d tanky ele in my group, i’m running a fairly tanky warrior, had about the smoothest and fastest run ever in fractals, all while we had the 2 of the hardest ones.

If people want to act all elitist let them, most of those people won’t join an anyone welcome group. Groups fill up in seconds anyway, and making it yourself and saying ANYONE WELCOME basicly scares people like that :p. I honestly haven’t had a bad experience since i started making my own groups.

It clearly was a bad group (skill and attitude wise), zerker isn’t the problem though – just those players were bad and embarassed (you share a little blame for it though by taunting them when they died, it would have made them upset and defensive).

Zerker is fine, some people are unreasonable and lash out when upset.

sinister is now viable

once you’ve mastered the dodge mechanic you’ll always love zerker build

it is really funny , i was in silver wastes , talking to a guy that has never stepped foot in dry top or silver wastes was a solo player didn’t seem to know much about sinister stats ether and his first reaction was " oh i’ve got this its much Better than that" even though i said this.

You can buy New sinister items from the wastes vendor I like the look of this one (the icon generaly makes my gear screen look nice after getting so many ascended items you start to care about what they look like too)

and that was his reaction, here is the kicker he was also a ranger and right now in the last few months since sinister was released it was proven on the ranger forums that Sinister vs Beserker was Even on the ranger , and Sinister was Faster at Dps while fighting mobs inside of the silver wastes .

i’ve fought against these mobs with Zealots , Full zerker , a Mix of Cav/Valk with assasin weapons too tried the lot and over the general mobs 100% zerker gear is only useful for rangers when they sit at far and range away because the group spawns will kill them as they out do the Damage migrations of SoS and protect me with pet kills it , a lot of the time the pet Survives longer than the person using a full glass build .

with the way ranger traits work right now 70% power , 30% condi with might and additional condi application from the pet equals quicker faster dps than a glass power ranger though the glass ranger provides bigger numbers but is generaly forced to use LB to keep distance to survive.

i see Full zerker as the easy way out , kill it fast and if it does not die blame others rather than taking the more Challenging route and fight it out like a boxer being able to take hits while out smarting the mobs postions or a players witts because all it takes is some Cleave sustain and most Zerker builds ether die or go on the full defensive they cant attack and defend at the same time, which inturn means they can’t hold points or fend off mobs to help seize a location for PvE rallying.

generaly Zerker should not be a thing for new players its not new player friendly it offers a lot of risk and little reward for those that have no knowledge of the game , when those new players first play the game they think or read zerker is the “norm” trying to Run before they have learned to walk , flailing at a boss or players hope they kill it or the foe before they regroup and if they do , the glass wearer gets that feeling of Remorse and dread wishing he could take a few extra hits to finish the fight but he has to back away giving up ground loosing points/postion in a group fight this is deadly to a team comp.

so the Beserker groups have only one option fight for their lives or Die no ifs or buts its not a question of Defences because they don’t have any , “blocks / evades/ dodge are just Everyones Bread and butter everyone can do it”. and even with combat experience there is only so much punishment you can take using bread and butter methods.

its not for new players so don’t Suggest to them zerker if they ask , make sure they know its a hard style to master and still comes with its risk regardless of how much you dodge.

The sad truth of it is that zerker really is the best choice for PvE right now (in most cases) because of the way the game works. I’m one of those true believers in diversity and every day I hope ANet gets closer and closer to balancing the game to where a greater number of stat combinations are not only viable, but strong in their own ways. I think this would truly help to strengthen the lasting appeal of the game, especially in regards to how this could make certain traits and builds even more usable than they are now.
For now, however, that’s not quite the case and there are, unfortunately, a number of people that enforce zerker meta only groups as the only way to go. Still, that’s their prerogative and as others have said, the best solution is to simply surround yourself with players that you don’t feel have toxic attitudes. Everyone has their right to play their own way and you’ll probably find the vast majority of players are willing to welcome alternative builds.

It is the truth that people may need to learn to accept that a good amount, if not most of the bad players who don’t bother to learn how to play their profession, would just mindlessly stick with Zerker Build because of different reasons but mostly because they were told some where that Zerker is the only true build people will need if they want to do anything involving group content.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

its not for new players so don’t Suggest to them zerker if they ask , make sure they know its a hard style to master and still comes with its risk regardless of how much you dodge.

That’s not sound logic. It’s just as ‘hard’ to dodge with zerker gear as anything else, it’s just you have to do it less with zerkers gear. That’s an argument FOR encouraging new players to use zerkers that aren’t used to dodging or don’t like it or whatever excuse.

Zerker(and assassins/sinisiter) is not a problem and never will be one. People die in zerker because key componetes of the soft trinity are not being met. In TA you need good condi removal, reflects and blinds. If you miss anyone of those things are going to hurt. Without those components you have to change your strategies most pugs do not.

In this game you have no reason to run anything but DPS since agies, reflects, absorbs, invul, vigor, dodges, stablity and condi removal keep you alive. OP you ran into bads who cannot survive in sub optimal situations should they run sub par gear or try to get better? that’s a question that each person will answer differently. So please don’t think zerker is a problem, look a little deeper and see why your team is dying and try to prevent that with a well place blind/condi removal/agies/reflect. You can also point out what they are not dodging (and if they refuse to learn leave).

P.S. cele is really bad because of healing power try Valkyrie or knights it will still keep you up I promise

horvgab.4879:

Dear Lux Dominatoris,

As I said, my story was an example (true, but it doesn’t matter that much). I’m watching this as a software developer. You are a zerker as you said, speed runner, high risk high reward player. No problem with this. But the only way to do this in this game binded to the following 3 thing: power, precision, ferocity. You can’t use conditions, you can’t be tanky, you can’t be true support, you have to go power to reach your goal. And this is the problem.

Ok, you can say, you can find a condi based team. Make a video about, how much time you need to get one (I bet at least 30 minute without friends) (and everybody in team have to have a decent usable condi build). Belive me ppl only know this. The majority of players playing metazerk only (especially the skilled ones). Hard to get sikilled ppl from the another side.

Think yourself in a situation as a new player. In the most ad in LFG you see, zerk, if you not see, they think you’ll be zerk, because everybody is zerk. So you start to build yourself to it, because community force you, other way, they just dont want to play with you. Of course, build your own society. Man, it’s not that easy, especially for a newbie. So the new player gona be zerk and until he not realise that this isn’t the only way, will become flamer againts anything new. This attitude is a problem.

There is 8 profession in game, why everybody uses the same stats? Why can’t a condi build fit to a zerker one? Why an overall celestial build can’t fit to it?

As an eye of a developer it’s a mistake from developers. If you’re saying you’re zerker, its only about stats, not a play style. If it’s a play style why other stats doesn’t support it? Why we are forced to use not fun skills? Why we can’t ,,zerk" with a condi build? Because the fault of the system. The system of the game gives the potential to the zerk. Other builds should be more viable. Thats all. I don’t want to kill the berzerk now , my rage has ended, but we need better alternatives.

First @ OP you using 4 cele pieces did not screw over their group- tho from what ive read you werent worried about that. I am just going to assume they had no super specific lfg because we had the respect discussion here oftn enough, having it again will not be very productive. Tbh ur pugs were bad you were screwed over. That sucks block them and go on
Secondly not everybody is using Zerk, the condition Engi has the highest theoretical dps in the game against non structures The only issue we are currently facing is the pug inflexability, thats imo all that lies behind the non meta attitude as well as clkittening in Lfg. And I think those are issues that fix themselves by time.
You can use conditions, they are perfectly fine after their poor stacking was issued a few patches ago, and if you are concerned about your survivability go with rabid trinkets.

There is nothing wrong with zerker.

Both you and your group failed to play it correctly, and you are both blaming the gear for your own lack of skill/knowledge.

Obtena.7952:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

its not for new players so don’t Suggest to them zerker if they ask , make sure they know its a hard style to master and still comes with its risk regardless of how much you dodge.

That’s not sound logic. It’s just as ‘hard’ to dodge with zerker gear as anything else, it’s just you have to do it less with zerkers gear. That’s an argument FOR encouraging new players to use zerkers that aren’t used to dodging or don’t like it or whatever excuse.

Huh?
Of course it is as easy to dodge with Zerker as with Soldier, button pressing wise.
But how many times do you wipe with a group of incompetent berserkers in an by all means easy dungeon like SE1 because people are bent of stacking in that stupid corner with 3 high damage golems pounding them after WoR and Shields are off or done for? I saw zerker thiefs die, not just go down, with one boss hit in a high level fractal. It´s clearly a l2p issue, and with zerk, a very unforgiving one for people that are new, slow or new and slow.

DnT did full condi run of Arah P2. Totally viable, but as with any other build it requires people to know how to play and how to avoid getting hit.

What people seem to miss here when saying that we have a choice, is that the rest of the builds are suboptimal. That is not really a choice, it’s an experiment at best.

Even if the soft trinity gets fixed, there will always be a meta. You’ll only see the bare minimum control and support roles to make the party work and the rest will be zerkers, but at least you’ll get to play other builds.

Skills should be somehow linked to toughness and vitality, like most of them are linked to power via damage. Protection and stability are just two examples that could be increased by toughness(in efficiency, not duration) and vitality could affect how you overcome conditions and give a chance to fumble your opponents attack(like the opposite of critical when the attack is made on you).

These are just some random ideas, but I’m sure a lot can be done in diversifying the builds.

1) These people were most probably bad try hards. Even if you were the worst player ever with zero damage, TA is the easiest dungeon to solo so. But my opinion? Growth a thicker skin. Kittenhole exist everywhere in life, if you can deal with I don’t know what to tell you. I’m playing with the meta, and I’ve still been killed because there is some people that are just stupid. Those people if they died were just regurgitated what they learned online, but they are bad if they can’t survive in TA.

2) If they are bad, you just don’t seem to understand the game mechanic. Zerker is good because active defense is so much more powerful than healing or tanking. If you have 5 zerker that bash the hell out of a low level bosses in dungeon, then you gonna be able to kill him before he kill you (or at least you gonna rally). That’s why they said what they said to you. But that’s a terrible way of player. Good Zerker should know the animation of the boss and use their active defense to stay high hp while having a lot of damage.

3) This wasn’t like that for a long time. Why zerker (and not sinister and assassin) is so prevalent in the last 2 years? Because content is easy and very old. People know the content by heart and it’s really not challenging anymore. So it’s easy for even ordinary players to use zerker. If Anet could put some very challenging content, zerker will still be the optimal way of player, but a lot more people wouln’t be able to pull it off and the ratio of zerker vs more tanky build would be lower. Build with a little bit more surviability would become more popular.

4) Tank not so much, but healer is still powerful in this game. You can heal the hell out in this game. The problem is that no content is hard enough to need it and active defense is even more powerful. There is the exemple of trio fractal with one cleric guardian. The run is still very quick, while being a lot smoother. This kind of stuff could be a good alternative for normal players if Anet give us hard enough content.

5) The game is 3 years old. The vast majority of the players base is still in the game because it’s base around active defense and gameplay. They won’t and shouldn’t change it back so it become a holy trinity game. Try to understand that and if you can’t, then there is plenty of other game for you.

6) Your solution? Keep playing the way you are playing and make sure you post your own lfg. Ideally say everybody welcome or thing like that. Jerk exist everywhere, but that way you should limit the number you encounter.

Sardath.8524:

What people seem to miss here when saying that we have a choice, is that the rest of the builds are suboptimal. That is not really a choice, it’s an experiment at best.

Even if the soft trinity gets fixed, there will always be a meta. You’ll only see the bare minimum control and support roles to make the party work and the rest will be zerkers, but at least you’ll get to play other builds.

Skills should be somehow linked to toughness and vitality, like most of them are linked to power via damage. Protection and stability are just two examples that could be increased by toughness(in efficiency, not duration) and vitality could affect how you overcome conditions and give a chance to fumble your opponents attack(like the opposite of critical when the attack is made on you).

These are just some random ideas, but I’m sure a lot can be done in diversifying the builds.

I hate this kind of ’’solution’’. So in zerker, my protection suck? So why would I use protection if in zerker it suck and I don’t need at all toughness. There is no content where I would take that stats so why would I take it to gain protection? People will continue to use zerker and take more vigor, blind and block. That’s all. The only thing that would do is to decrease the amount of build diversity for zerker build.

No. Just by adding more challenging content, this will push zerker build to the limit. Good player would use the maximim support and control (if the incoming break bar system is good), but would still play in zerker. While the vast majority of player won’t be able to pull it off. They would have a choice between player zerker build with some defensive gear or use some healer to support them.

The best way I see to futher increase the gear diversity wihtout broking thing up is to merge precision and ferocity and only having gear with 2 offensives stats. The third would be something else. So a PS warrior would take a Power/Precision/Boon Duration gear, a guardian could take a Power/Precision/Healing gear, etc. Each would do their max dps and could after that take different gear to reach different goal without really being suboptimal. But really, just having some high difficulty should be far enough.

Torolan.5816:

Obtena.7952:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

its not for new players so don’t Suggest to them zerker if they ask , make sure they know its a hard style to master and still comes with its risk regardless of how much you dodge.

That’s not sound logic. It’s just as ‘hard’ to dodge with zerker gear as anything else, it’s just you have to do it less with zerkers gear. That’s an argument FOR encouraging new players to use zerkers that aren’t used to dodging or don’t like it or whatever excuse.

Huh?
Of course it is as easy to dodge with Zerker as with Soldier, button pressing wise.
But how many times do you wipe with a group of incompetent berserkers in an by all means easy dungeon like SE1 because people are bent of stacking in that stupid corner with 3 high damage golems pounding them after WoR and Shields are off or done for? I saw zerker thiefs die, not just go down, with one boss hit in a high level fractal. It´s clearly a l2p issue, and with zerk, a very unforgiving one for people that are new, slow or new and slow.

People incompetent in zerkers are ALSO incompetent in any other gear you want to give them. Same argument. Skill != gear.

Yes, you might live an extra hit or two in not zerkers gear and that might keep you from eating the dirt less but you HAVE to learn to dodge stuff and once you learn that, you will quickly realize you can evolve from not zerkers gear to zerkers gear.

Doing dungeons is about knowledge and skills. Gear doesn’t give that to you. Gear doesn’t allow you to ignore either of those. It lessens the burden only enough to give you breathing room to get the skills and experience you need to progress.

OP, the issue here isn’t “zerk” as a style. The problem here is people. Some of them are just kittenes, and that’s what you seem to have found. Unfortunately, there are a lot of them out there, although they do tend to congregate more in certain modes of the game. The whole “well we died because you’re holding us back. we aren’t doing enough dps” is a cop out. Nothing more, nothing less.

Obtena.7952:

Torolan.5816:

Obtena.7952:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

its not for new players so don’t Suggest to them zerker if they ask , make sure they know its a hard style to master and still comes with its risk regardless of how much you dodge.

That’s not sound logic. It’s just as ‘hard’ to dodge with zerker gear as anything else, it’s just you have to do it less with zerkers gear. That’s an argument FOR encouraging new players to use zerkers that aren’t used to dodging or don’t like it or whatever excuse.

Huh?
Of course it is as easy to dodge with Zerker as with Soldier, button pressing wise.
But how many times do you wipe with a group of incompetent berserkers in an by all means easy dungeon like SE1 because people are bent of stacking in that stupid corner with 3 high damage golems pounding them after WoR and Shields are off or done for? I saw zerker thiefs die, not just go down, with one boss hit in a high level fractal. It´s clearly a l2p issue, and with zerk, a very unforgiving one for people that are new, slow or new and slow.

People incompetent in zerkers are ALSO incompetent in any other gear you want to give them. Same argument. Skill != gear.

Yes, you might live an extra hit or two in not zerkers gear and that might keep you from eating the dirt less but you HAVE to learn to dodge stuff and once you learn that, you will quickly realize you can evolve from not zerkers gear to zerkers gear.

Doing dungeons is about knowledge and skills. Gear doesn’t give that to you. Gear doesn’t allow you to ignore either of those. It lessens the burden only enough to give you breathing room to get the skills and experience you need to progress.

I play dungeons from release on and high level fractals soon after they came into being and I deem myself to be fairly competent in them. But I still prefer my soldier guard above every other class. Why? Because it is forgiving and I feel confident in them to not be a liability in a group. Anyone that can feel confident in Berserk, more power to you.

But please, don´t just jump into stuff with Berserk, evolve as you put it. That´s only a disaster waiing to happen if you don´t, I never bought into trial by fire attempts suggested by some Berserker players.

Thaddeus.4891:

1) These people were most probably bad try hards. Even if you were the worst player ever with zero damage, TA is the easiest dungeon to solo so. But my opinion? Growth a thicker skin. Kittenhole exist everywhere in life, if you can deal with I don’t know what to tell you. I’m playing with the meta, and I’ve still been killed because there is some people that are just stupid. Those people if they died were just regurgitated what they learned online, but they are bad if they can’t survive in TA.

2) If they are bad, you just don’t seem to understand the game mechanic. Zerker is good because active defense is so much more powerful than healing or tanking. If you have 5 zerker that bash the hell out of a low level bosses in dungeon, then you gonna be able to kill him before he kill you (or at least you gonna rally). That’s why they said what they said to you. But that’s a terrible way of player. Good Zerker should know the animation of the boss and use their active defense to stay high hp while having a lot of damage.

3) This wasn’t like that for a long time. Why zerker (and not sinister and assassin) is so prevalent in the last 2 years? Because content is easy and very old. People know the content by heart and it’s really not challenging anymore. So it’s easy for even ordinary players to use zerker. If Anet could put some very challenging content, zerker will still be the optimal way of player, but a lot more people wouln’t be able to pull it off and the ratio of zerker vs more tanky build would be lower. Build with a little bit more surviability would become more popular.

4) Tank not so much, but healer is still powerful in this game. You can heal the hell out in this game. The problem is that no content is hard enough to need it and active defense is even more powerful. There is the exemple of trio fractal with one cleric guardian. The run is still very quick, while being a lot smoother. This kind of stuff could be a good alternative for normal players if Anet give us hard enough content.

5) The game is 3 years old. The vast majority of the players base is still in the game because it’s base around active defense and gameplay. They won’t and shouldn’t change it back so it become a holy trinity game. Try to understand that and if you can’t, then there is plenty of other game for you.

6) Your solution? Keep playing the way you are playing and make sure you post your own lfg. Ideally say everybody welcome or thing like that. Jerk exist everywhere, but that way you should limit the number you encounter.

Experienced fractal trios don’t even really use clerics guard, they just use zerkers guard and rotate blocks and aegis around.

A few things.

1) It’s about skill, not gear. If people are dying it’s because they are playing badly. Zerker gear is fine.

2) Celestial is bad in PvE. I highly recommend you switch it to either soldier’s or just more zerk’s.

3) Most professions have no use for defensive stats at all anyway. Health can be sorta helpful to avoid 1 shots but otherwise the defensive stats do nothing.

horvgab.4879:

My story was just an example for a problem. Because it is. You can be sure there is a lot of player (most of player), who think: the meta is the only way, and players without is just noobs, because they don’t understand the game… This is the current attitude and it isn’t healthy. They wont come to the forum, they wont start arguing about it, just believing the s.hh.t. So we have to make moves, to saying to them: this isn’t the only way. And have to create mechanins in the game to support this idea. And that’s why I started this conversation. Anyway I gave some solution and idea too.

Meta is not about the only way to complete a challenge, but the most efficient way to do that. If you can’t play with those people, make your own LFG.

Some people think they have a zerker problem and want to change the meta to soldier.

Now they have a soldier problem.

In an ideal world, the meta would be a bit more tanky, while zerker would be something you could run if you have a support with you to compensate, at least imo.

stof.9341:

Some people think they have a zerker problem and want to change the meta to soldier.

Now they have a soldier problem.

Except this isn’t entirely true. If soldier would be meta for melee for example, zerker could still be viable when combined with a heavy support or heal style build. Guilds could make teams outside of meta, learn to play together, and benefit from actually being coördinated. Right now there is no benefit to running anything else. If soldier were the meta, at least coördinated teams could deviate from that.

Here we go again, another daily episode of the anti-zerker-meta… sigh.

horvgab.4879:

I’m sick from this. What is this, why am I forced to a not even fun build and gear setup.?ArenaNet have to end this madness. We have to kill this mentality in game. Enemies needs more dmg to kill the zerkers instanly, or at least need some tank to the team who mitigate the dmg, and kind of healers as well. I’m not saying making another wow, just don’t do like this. Make sure about not the berserker the fastest way to go through a dungeon and pls SAY IT TO THE PLAYER BASE, communicate to them, explain it, make a post about it. Because they are still in a belive about zerker zerker zerker. They can’t make a build alone, just using ugly meta and blaming us for not using it.

And what exactly would that accomplish? If berserker stats are no longer the fastest way to go through a dungeon, the meta will simply shift to the one stat that will be – most likely sinister, which has already started to make its way into meta-builds. Funny enough, with its creation being an account-bound matter, you’ll have to go a long way then in order to obtain the “required” gear contrary to the current availability of berserker gear.

The same applies for your “solution” to re-introduce the trinity: In that case, there will simply be a meta-build for the tank, the healer and so on. Maybe one has sinister, the other clerics, it doesn’t really matter since the same gearing limitations apply.

Fortunately for you (and for us all), there are two easy solutions for you that do not involve changes to the game:

First of all, learn to properly use the lfg-interface. No one forces you into meta/berserker parties if you carefully read what the group-requirements are or – even better – start your own group.

Secondly, try to improve your own gaming abilities instead of blaming this matter on zerker gear. The way your post and solutions read to me, you are not very experienced with both dungeon-content as well as some game mechanics in general. It helps to catch up on these first before you blame everyone and everything else instead. There are wikis and sites dedicated to dungeon content, corresponding builds and so on.

Obtena.7952:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

its not for new players so don’t Suggest to them zerker if they ask , make sure they know its a hard style to master and still comes with its risk regardless of how much you dodge.

That’s not sound logic. It’s just as ‘hard’ to dodge with zerker gear as anything else, it’s just you have to do it less with zerkers gear. That’s an argument FOR encouraging new players to use zerkers that aren’t used to dodging or don’t like it or whatever excuse.

its not a question of can they dodge everyone can do it as i said but new players don’t know the content , they don’t know " When to dodge" so them using Zerker or glass gear from the get go , is like giving a Child a Knife and Expecting them to be Smart with its use or safe.

im not saying don’t dodge or anything , the CORE basics is block/dodge/evade and it has nothing to do with gear as a player gets more Knowledge of the content in the game then sure Swap to zerker because they know they won’t die or be a Hinderance , or Even having so many new players on a map you see 3/4’s of your gaming screen with downed bodies because the didn’t know the content.

for Veterns entering a new area with content won’t take us long to learn it since we have had years of practice but it is totaly different for new players that don’t have that Reactive ability doesn’t mix well with Glass gear , they will need different stats to Survive since block/evade/dodge requires timing and Visual knowledge of effects.

its much easier for people to just let them do what ever they like soon enough they will learn the content make a slow switch to zerker / glass specs (sinister) or even just keep they build they have Fun with but Optimise it.

At that point they will feel less Fustrated / stress than diving into the deep end of a Pool , its not Attrative to new players and i’ll tell you this " it makes them leave the game Rather than stay" after that comes the Meta bullies pretty much saying Learn Faster! , it takes Time and class experience to learn a Zerker play style.

" people saying to new players use Zerker " what good is it to use Zerker gear at level 30 when creatures that low or weak die to Knights gear/soilders gear/rampagers gear its not needed.

them telling them to go Full zerker from the start is not a good or Fun way to teach them game mechanics.

" learning mistakes through deaths" is not fun at all , which is what games are about Fun rememberal Experiences , " do you remember the WoW Dead spirit corpse running " now change that to spending 50% of your time waiting for a res or running back from a Waypoint" that is not fun.

that is the point i was making Block/dodge/evade are Bread a butter , Zerker lack Stat defences to make mistakes and those players that know nothing about the creatures they are fighting will face Hours of Fustration.

this is about Mind Set , Attitude not the Gear.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

Obtena.7952:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

its not for new players so don’t Suggest to them zerker if they ask , make sure they know its a hard style to master and still comes with its risk regardless of how much you dodge.

That’s not sound logic. It’s just as ‘hard’ to dodge with zerker gear as anything else, it’s just you have to do it less with zerkers gear. That’s an argument FOR encouraging new players to use zerkers that aren’t used to dodging or don’t like it or whatever excuse.

its not a question of can they dodge everyone can do it as i said but new players don’t know the content , they don’t know " When to dodge" so them using Zerker or glass gear from the get go , is like giving a Child a Knife and Expecting them to be Smart with its use or safe.

im not saying don’t dodge or anything , the CORE basics is block/dodge/evade and it has nothing to do with gear as a player gets more Knowledge of the content in the game then sure Swap to zerker because they know they won’t die or be a Hinderance , or Even having so many new players on a map you see 3/4’s of your gaming screen with downed bodies because the didn’t know the content.

for Veterns entering a new area with content won’t take us long to learn it since we have had years of practice but it is totaly different for new players that don’t have that Reactive ability doesn’t mix well with Glass gear , they will need different stats to Survive since block/evade/dodge requires timing and Visual knowledge of effects.

its much easier for people to just let them do what ever they like soon enough they will learn the content make a slow switch to zerker / glass specs (sinister) or even just keep they build they have Fun with but Optimise it.

At that point they will feel less Fustrated / stress than diving into the deep end of a Pool , its not Attrative to new players and i’ll tell you this " it makes them leave the game Rather than stay" after that comes the Meta bullies pretty much saying Learn Faster! , it takes Time and class experience to learn a Zerker play style.

" people saying to new players use Zerker " what good is it to use Zerker gear at level 30 when creatures that low or weak die to Knights gear/soilders gear/rampagers gear its not needed.

them telling them to go Full zerker from the start is not a good or Fun way to teach them game mechanics.

" learning mistakes through deaths" is not fun at all , which is what games are about Fun rememberal Experiences , " do you remember the WoW Dead spirit corpse running " now change that to spending 50% of your time waiting for a res or running back from a Waypoint" that is not fun.

that is the point i was making Block/dodge/evade are Bread a butter , Zerker lack Stat defences to make mistakes and those players that know nothing about the creatures they are fighting will face Hours of Fustration.

this is about Mind Set , Attitude not the Gear.

Isn’t that kinda what guilds are for? Older experienced players teaching inexperienced players when to dodge and stuff?

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

its not a question of can they dodge everyone can do it as i said but new players don’t know the content , they don’t know " When to dodge" so them using Zerker or glass gear from the get go , is like giving a Child a Knife and Expecting them to be Smart with its use or safe.

The analogy is so bad it hurts.

You don’t teach kids to play chess on a monopoly board do you ?

So why would you teach them to play the game in a manner that gimps their ability.
The best way to learn is to be given all the tools needed to achieve success. In this case that includes the proper gear, and teaching from players who know what to do.

Best Killua NA.4820:

Experienced fractal trios don’t even really use clerics guard, they just use zerkers guard and rotate blocks and aegis around.

Yes, but trio fractal 50 with a cleric guardian a pretty good setup too. You can finish fractal in around 30min with this setup and it’s some smooth run that rarely go bad or wipe. 3 Zerkers will go faster for sure.

It’s not like CoF path 1 where 1 cleric serve no role whatsoever. But trio fractal 50 is a pretty nice content and about the only one where a kind of healer would be useful.

TexZero.7910:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

its not a question of can they dodge everyone can do it as i said but new players don’t know the content , they don’t know " When to dodge" so them using Zerker or glass gear from the get go , is like giving a Child a Knife and Expecting them to be Smart with its use or safe.

The analogy is so bad it hurts.

You don’t teach kids to play chess on a monopoly board do you ?

So why would you teach them to play the game in a manner that gimps their ability.
The best way to learn is to be given all the tools needed to achieve success. In this case that includes the proper gear, and teaching from players who know what to do.

I don´t know about you, I did not learn chess by going to a chess club and play with people that already were regional competetive good chess players. I learned chess from my relatives who explained to me how a given piece could move. I had to play on my own, but I knew what could do which trick in the game. And not even that to 100%, it´s kind of hard to grasp a rochade at first or how to not move to get into checkmate in 4 rounds when you are new to chess^^.

I find all these zerkers only/meta only/guardians only kind of ads really annoying.

People should let other people play however they want, and the class they want. I can do lvl 50 fracs with all rangers. It’s not that hard. I don’t get why some people would go the extra mile to find a guardian only to realise the guardian doesn’t know how to trait his class or use walls. :/

I’d rather have people who like and know their classes, than force people to play a class they don’t like just because that’s what the “meta” says. -_-

My sinister ranger says hi.

TexZero.7910:

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

its not a question of can they dodge everyone can do it as i said but new players don’t know the content , they don’t know " When to dodge" so them using Zerker or glass gear from the get go , is like giving a Child a Knife and Expecting them to be Smart with its use or safe.

The analogy is so bad it hurts.

You don’t teach kids to play chess on a monopoly board do you ?

So why would you teach them to play the game in a manner that gimps their ability.
The best way to learn is to be given all the tools needed to achieve success. In this case that includes the proper gear, and teaching from players who know what to do.

all the tools they need for Success is good use of Block/dodge/evade and Timing/knowledge of the content without that Zerker gear is useless , its not a question of gear what good will it be when the person you are trying to teach Dies everytime they try somthing res , run 100miles and try again? thats not fun , you play your Zerker gear stuff, the point here Again is the Attitude its not the best gear for New players Period.

If they are 60 years old or a 8 year old kid with no MMO experience its going to stress them out a lot, so you don’;t Suggest anything to them but what they find Fun untill they have learned the content at their pace not rushing themselfs being goaded by the game to quickly Get better so they can Partake in Lvl 30 content which Level 30’s can finish without Zerker gear.

the only time you should Suggest Zerker gear is

“if the new player to guild wars 2 are Veterans of other MMO’s that have joined Guild wars that is due to personal Background and you’d then have a Reason to suggest Zerker gear

or by going on thier person background can they Handle it without the stress and pressure ."

its been proven in Science that Stress and Pressure are not good Teaching methods.

The problem is many people think blind mechanics make the game and forget about the part where they must play it first. In other words, some people adopt the meta without knowing how to play it, and then blame their own failure on something (or someone) else. They think meta = sure win.

I understand you, horvgab. The “not enough dps” excuse is very, very common, and the worst part is, in some cases is actually true.

And, although the “make your own group” is the best we can do to avoid the problem, the problem still exists: there is a “zerker religion” in the game, wich ocassionally sprouts zealots that see pure DPS as the only way to play the game, EVEN WHEN THEY THEMSELVES CAN’T PLAY IT PROPERLY. I haven’t had too much problems with them, but the few times that I did, have been really bad experiences.

Why is this a problem for Anet? Because giving people with fanatical ideas tools to support them is never worth it. A rigid and long lived meta creates rigid behaviours, and that gives birth to elitism, bad manners and grief.

I think Anet is making the effort to answer this, though. All the new content, while very forgiving with Zerk fans, looks also very “not zerker oriented” to me.

Lets wait and see.