Guild Wars 2

Ardid.7203:

The problem is many people think blind mechanics make the game and forget about the part where they must play it first. In other words, some people adopt the meta without knowing how to play it, and then blame their own failure on something (or someone) else. They think meta = sure win.

I understand you, horvgab. The “not enough dps” excuse is very, very common, and the worst part is, in some cases is actually true.

And, although the “make your own group” is the best we can do to avoid the problem, the problem still exists: there is a “zerker religion” in the game, wich ocassionally sprouts zealots that see pure DPS as the only way to play the game, EVEN WHEN THEY THEMSELVES CAN’T PLAY IT PROPERLY. I haven’t had too much problems with them, but the few times that I did, have been really bad experiences.

Why is this a problem for Anet? Because giving people with fanatical ideas tools to support them is never worth it. A rigid and long lived meta creates rigid behaviours, and that gives birth to elitism, bad manners and grief.

I think Anet is making the effort to answer this, though. All the new content, while very forgiving with Zerk fans, looks also very “not zerker oriented” to me.

Lets wait and see.

+1 i could not agree more.

Zenos Osgorma.2936:

I understand you, horvgab. The “not enough dps” excuse is very, very common, and the worst part is, in some cases is actually true.

No it’s not. If you die because of lack of dps, that’s because you stood there like an idiot and get yourself killed. Most if not all dungeon can be soloed in zerker. If we can survive in zerker alone with 1/5 of the dps, then how can people can die because the party of 5 don’t have enough dps.

Ardid.7203:

The problem is many people think blind mechanics make the game and forget about the part where they must play it first. In other words, some people adopt the meta without knowing how to play it, and then blame their own failure on something (or someone) else. They think meta = sure win.

I understand you, horvgab. The “not enough dps” excuse is very, very common, and the worst part is, in some cases is actually true.

And, although the “make your own group” is the best we can do to avoid the problem, the problem still exists: there is a “zerker religion” in the game, wich ocassionally sprouts zealots that see pure DPS as the only way to play the game, EVEN WHEN THEY THEMSELVES CAN’T PLAY IT PROPERLY. I haven’t had too much problems with them, but the few times that I did, have been really bad experiences.

Why is this a problem for Anet? Because giving people with fanatical ideas tools to support them is never worth it. A rigid and long lived meta creates rigid behaviours, and that gives birth to elitism, bad manners and grief.

I think Anet is making the effort to answer this, though. All the new content, while very forgiving with Zerk fans, looks also very “not zerker oriented” to me.

Lets wait and see.

Ugh….I’m just gonna say this and you can imagine my head slammed against a desk.

“There will always be a meta. If you destroy one meta, another meta will rise and become the new meta, and the cycle continues.”

At the start of the game, there most likely were very much less zerkers than there are today (I was using Knights for the longest time). Why? Because many people know how to do the content well enough they can class cannon to get it done faster.

And you know what? You are right. Playing in the beta, I was dying a lot in my zerk gear, until I started learning the attack patterns of monsters and what to expect. Then I was able to zerk it full time until I became overwhelmed in some events (lack of bodies really). So already I can see the pattern repeating.

And yes, people are jerks on the internet and video games. SURPRISE! Each game has pure zealots in it. Heck, look at WoW players who say the game is still fantastic and other people just don’t get it.

horvgab.4879:

I fed up with this berserker stuff.

I HATE ZERKER META.

Sighhhhhh.

Two pages!

Let’s nip this in the bud! We’ll show them! Ban all zerkers! How dare they have standards.

I like zerk, I play zerk, but I hate when I read “we lacked DPS that’s why we died,” it’s just a sign that those players can’t handle zerk. If you can’t dodge and defend yourself and have to rely on a massive burst to kill things before they kill you… you’re not good at the game.

Now, “guard why didn’t you use Wall?” “Thief where were the blinds?” These are comments I can get behind, but even these, almost every profession can handle things personally and blaming others for your own mistakes is nothing but childish. Now, there can be players who basically sabotage the group with poor play doing their best to work against the group in pulling enemies away from the damage or screwing up defiance and what not, but in the end good play can still have you pulling through 9/10 times ( splitting up trash and preventing blinds as they alternate attacks so you’re constantly being attacked is the exception I can think of).

But, this has nothing to do with Zerker or any gear stats, it has to do with bad players not understanding the game.

I think the best possible option would ideally be for zerker and sinister gear to present a more significant risk vs reward scenario while defensive stats were made more appealing. If more reason was given to take passive defensive stats like vitality or toughness, I should think zerker and sinister would be all the more rewarding for players who have the ability to stay alive with proper use of active defense in order to squeeze out even more damage. Sure, this means that zerker and sinister would be more difficult to play without dying, but shouldn’t we be seeing that sort of trade-off in a game that offers defensive stats anyways? It seems odd to me right now that my zerker guardian has as much, if not more, chance of surviving than he does in soldier’s gear. xD Don’t get me wrong, I run zerker not because it’s the “meta” but really because it’s hard to deny how effective it is right now.

This balancing would hopefully shut down many of these discussions (or at least limit them)!
Still, as others have said . . . bad players are bad players regardless of gear and sometimes it’s easier to blame others than take a blow to one’s pride, I guess! :P Sorry for your bad experience.

Samnang.1879:

I find all these zerkers only/meta only/guardians only kind of ads really annoying.

People should let other people play however they want, and the class they want. I can do lvl 50 fracs with all rangers. It’s not that hard. I don’t get why some people would go the extra mile to find a guardian only to realise the guardian doesn’t know how to trait his class or use walls. :/

I’d rather have people who like and know their classes, than force people to play a class they don’t like just because that’s what the “meta” says. -_-

So players who want to do the dungeon in the quickest and most efficient manner for PUGs to have to go slower because you don’t like that play style?

It is actually quite amazing how much more important tactics are compaired to gear. At base, Zerker only does 45% more damage than soldiers (roughly, depends on class/build). So if an enemy would survive for 5 seconds against a full zerker team, it would then only live 7.25 seconds on a full soldier team.

What keeps players alive and what kills enemies fast is tactics. How well you stack boons, what weapons and rotations you use, if you have the right utilities and traits for the encounter, etc.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

It is actually quite amazing how much more important tactics are compaired to gear. At base, Zerker only does 45% more damage than soldiers (roughly, depends on class/build). So if an enemy would survive for 5 seconds against a full zerker team, it would then only live 7.25 seconds on a full soldier team.

What keeps players alive and what kills enemies fast is tactics. How well you stack boons, what weapons and rotations you use, if you have the right utilities and traits for the encounter, etc.

I agree that, to the credit of the devs, it is really nice to see that stats aren’t necessarily the defining factor and so we’ve managed to not end up with situations in which players are obsessed with things like “gear-score.” Granted, with that said there are certainly encounters in the game where that 45% damage loss could mean the difference between success and defeat. It would still be nice to see some further balancing, but reminders like yours that we play a game in which gear isn’t the ultimate deciding factor are welcome.

xinkspillx.3914:

Granted, with that said there are certainly encounters in the game where that 45% damage loss could mean the difference between success and defeat.

Is that really true though? If it was, how do we explain people soloing dungeons? If damage loss was such a significant factor in the content, then in theory, no amount of skill should allow people to solo it.

Obtena.7952:

xinkspillx.3914:

Granted, with that said there are certainly encounters in the game where that 45% damage loss could mean the difference between success and defeat.

Is that really true though? If it was, how do we explain people soloing dungeons? If damage loss was such a significant factor in the content, then in theory, no amount of skill should allow people to solo it.

I was really thinking something more like Tequatl than a dungeon, to be honest. I guess I should have made that a little clearer. Lack of damage definitely has an impact on this world boss at the very least. I was thinking about those pesky timers. XD

xinkspillx.3914:

Obtena.7952:

xinkspillx.3914:

Granted, with that said there are certainly encounters in the game where that 45% damage loss could mean the difference between success and defeat.

Is that really true though? If it was, how do we explain people soloing dungeons? If damage loss was such a significant factor in the content, then in theory, no amount of skill should allow people to solo it.

I was really thinking something more like Tequatl than a dungeon, to be honest. I guess I should have made that a little clearer. Lack of damage definitely has an impact on this world boss at the very least. I’d definitely say the majority of events wouldn’t be impossible with a damage reduction of 45%.

I agree with Obtena here. The only place where damage is a defining factor in the success of a content is when there is a timer attached to it and there is very few of those in the game. You get some world bosses, Silverwaste and the Grawls in Volcanic fractal. But other than that, the vast vast majority of the game doesn’t need anybody to reach a minimum damage to succeed.

And a lot of people focus only to some specific stuff that increase damage. Usually people that use the ‘’we die because we don’t have enough damage’’ reasoning don’t use a proper rotation, food, potions, max vulnerability, etc. We only focus on build and gear to differentiate between a good and a bad dps. But in reality there is a lot of different small source of dps that all need to be there to reach the max. So why some source (build and gear) and seen as absolutely necessary to have decent dps, while others (food, potion, max buff) are view as secondary.

Thaddeus.4891:

I agree with Obtena here. The only place where damage is a defining factor in the success of a content is when there is a timer attached to it and there is very few of those in the game. You get some world bosses, Silverwaste and the Grawls in Volcanic fractal. But other than that, the vast vast majority of the game doesn’t need anybody to reach a minimum damage to succeed.

Haha yeah, that’s really what I was referring to but wasn’t quite clear enough. I updated my post but just moments too late for your reply. My overall opinion is in agreement with the sentiment that max damage isn’t the be-all-end-all of the game. That’s one of reasons I play this game.

Fact is, zerker builds are only as good as your dodging. I’ve seen zerker teams clean out dungeons easily, and others die horribly over and over, depending on the dodging. The advantage of more defensive gear is if you don’t dodge perfectly you live to continue fighting.

Seera.5916:

Samnang.1879:

I find all these zerkers only/meta only/guardians only kind of ads really annoying.

People should let other people play however they want, and the class they want. I can do lvl 50 fracs with all rangers. It’s not that hard. I don’t get why some people would go the extra mile to find a guardian only to realise the guardian doesn’t know how to trait his class or use walls. :/

I’d rather have people who like and know their classes, than force people to play a class they don’t like just because that’s what the “meta” says. -_-

So players who want to do the dungeon in the quickest and most efficient manner for PUGs to have to go slower because you don’t like that play style?

“So players who want to do the dungeon in a relaxed and most effort to ratio manner for PUGs to have to go faster because you don´t like that play style?”

Not that I necessarily think that way, but do you see how easily that swings backward, making it a really awkward and weak argument for both sides?

Torolan.5816:

Seera.5916:

Samnang.1879:

I find all these zerkers only/meta only/guardians only kind of ads really annoying.

People should let other people play however they want, and the class they want. I can do lvl 50 fracs with all rangers. It’s not that hard. I don’t get why some people would go the extra mile to find a guardian only to realise the guardian doesn’t know how to trait his class or use walls. :/

I’d rather have people who like and know their classes, than force people to play a class they don’t like just because that’s what the “meta” says. -_-

So players who want to do the dungeon in the quickest and most efficient manner for PUGs to have to go slower because you don’t like that play style?

“So players who want to do the dungeon in a relaxed and most effort to ratio manner for PUGs to have to go faster because you don´t like that play style?”

Not that I necessarily think that way, but do you see how easily that swings backward, making it a really awkward and weak argument for both sides?

Zerkers advetise specifically for other Zerkers (if you care about it)

Antizerkers advertise for nonzerkers.

Join appropriately – problem solved.

Those people should stop trying to join advertised groups wanting meta zerker then…

Jesus guys if everyone just sticks to their own type of people instead of trying to infect other groups which don’t correspond to their desired playstyle we wouldn’t ever need to have this discussion.

The sheer amount of posts in every thread on this issue, of which there are many attests to the seriousness of the issue. I sincerely hope the developers silence on the matter is due to a HoT mass balance patch, that they are waiting to release because a large part of the community would be upset by it.

Clearly 5 zerkers, with mad skill and timing is the fastest at clearing content. The issue is noob fans of the players with mad skill on youtube. Just like bass players that slap just cause they listen to Marcus Miller. Its the follower mentality… what we need is a meta so nuanced that the noob followers can’t tie thier understanding to one simple concept. We need people to be forced to learn about spec building not spec copying.

For the moment the only fix is to create “all welcome” and not “anti meta” lfgs.

“Anti meta” sentiment makes the noob followers feel like you stepped on thier ego, because they cant figure out any other way on their own, and not knowing things in our society is bad. So we have to put on kid gloves that we shouldn’t need. But we live in a world where “hurt feelings” is treated as a valid argument.

BrokenGlass.9356:

The sheer amount of posts in every thread on this issue, of which there are many attests to the seriousness of the issue. I sincerely hope the developers silence on the matter is due to a HoT mass balance patch, that they are waiting to release because a large part of the community would be upset by it.

Clearly 5 zerkers, with mad skill and timing is the fastest at clearing content. The issue is noob fans of the players with mad skill on youtube. Just like bass players that slap just cause they listen to Marcus Miller. Its the follower mentality… what we need is a meta so nuanced that the noob followers can’t tie thier understanding to one simple concept. We need people to be forced to learn about spec building not spec copying.

For the moment the only fix is to create “all welcome” and not “anti meta” lfgs.

“Anti meta” sentiment makes the noob followers feel like you stepped on thier ego, because they cant figure out any other way on their own, and not knowing things in our society is bad. So we have to put on kid gloves that we shouldn’t need. But we live in a world where “hurt feelings” is treated as a valid argument.

The mounts thread has a lot of requests for mounts. Does that mean Anet should serious consider it?

The thing about those complaining about zerker/meta/whatever is that they seem to not realize that they can form their own group. If they want to kill everything and its mother in a dungeon, they can create a group specific to that. If they want to play without equipment at all, they can create a group for that.

There is no issue like people in this thread, and the countless others, are claiming. Just take the initiative and create your own group.

horvgab.4879:

(…) So the stroy (…)

There’s no end to stories like this, I’ve been playing since early days so I’d have a loooooot of them to tell you.

At the end of the day and when I’m really fed up with people, but I could really use the gold, I just solo a dungeon.

Problemo, solvedo.

I zerker farmed this game for about year and a half after release. Ultimately it was one of the dominant factors that have led me to quit the game at least for a while, only came back because of the recent condi changes, in which so far, I am disappointed greatly. Only 3 out of all professions condi builds can reasonably keep up, rest are unusable in practical sense. Too many bosses still have immunities / duration reductions on both damaging and controlling conditions. This is A-Net fail.

The current zerker meta is full of problems. It is stale and needs to change for that, in addition to many other reasons.

I also noticed upon my return a vast degradation in player quality, especially, zerkers. Its so bad right now, 90% of these current zerkers are just horribaddie scrubs that come here on these forums and say “no its not the meta you just got paired / grouped with the few baddies, rest of us are good, we sware ….”

yea right….. just EN OH. 90% of you zerkers are exactly and precisely these baddies then spew crap here that its the other guys giving you a bad name, while it isnt, its you.

Ayrilana.1396:

BrokenGlass.9356:

The sheer amount of posts in every thread on this issue, of which there are many attests to the seriousness of the issue. I sincerely hope the developers silence on the matter is due to a HoT mass balance patch, that they are waiting to release because a large part of the community would be upset by it.

Clearly 5 zerkers, with mad skill and timing is the fastest at clearing content. The issue is noob fans of the players with mad skill on youtube. Just like bass players that slap just cause they listen to Marcus Miller. Its the follower mentality… what we need is a meta so nuanced that the noob followers can’t tie thier understanding to one simple concept. We need people to be forced to learn about spec building not spec copying.

For the moment the only fix is to create “all welcome” and not “anti meta” lfgs.

“Anti meta” sentiment makes the noob followers feel like you stepped on thier ego, because they cant figure out any other way on their own, and not knowing things in our society is bad. So we have to put on kid gloves that we shouldn’t need. But we live in a world where “hurt feelings” is treated as a valid argument.

The mounts thread has a lot of requests for mounts. Does that mean Anet should serious consider it?

The thing about those complaining about zerker/meta/whatever is that they seem to not realize that they can form their own group. If they want to kill everything and its mother in a dungeon, they can create a group specific to that. If they want to play without equipment at all, they can create a group for that.

There is no issue like people in this thread, and the countless others, are claiming. Just take the initiative and create your own group.

You missed the line in my post, where I said “For the moment the only fix is to create “all welcome” and not “anti meta” lfgs."

We are clearly stating a real problem, that a large portion of the player base is having.

Yes a large portion of the player base wants mounts too. Should they be listened to? Probably. Would listening to them break WvW by massively expanding the response speed of zergs? Yes. Is there a fix that makes people happy, and doesn’t break the game? Probably.

Claiming there is no problem, in a thread full of those people who are both experiencing it, and creating it… puts you firmly on one side of the argument.

BrokenGlass.9356:

Ayrilana.1396:

BrokenGlass.9356:

The sheer amount of posts in every thread on this issue, of which there are many attests to the seriousness of the issue. I sincerely hope the developers silence on the matter is due to a HoT mass balance patch, that they are waiting to release because a large part of the community would be upset by it.

Clearly 5 zerkers, with mad skill and timing is the fastest at clearing content. The issue is noob fans of the players with mad skill on youtube. Just like bass players that slap just cause they listen to Marcus Miller. Its the follower mentality… what we need is a meta so nuanced that the noob followers can’t tie thier understanding to one simple concept. We need people to be forced to learn about spec building not spec copying.

For the moment the only fix is to create “all welcome” and not “anti meta” lfgs.

“Anti meta” sentiment makes the noob followers feel like you stepped on thier ego, because they cant figure out any other way on their own, and not knowing things in our society is bad. So we have to put on kid gloves that we shouldn’t need. But we live in a world where “hurt feelings” is treated as a valid argument.

The mounts thread has a lot of requests for mounts. Does that mean Anet should serious consider it?

The thing about those complaining about zerker/meta/whatever is that they seem to not realize that they can form their own group. If they want to kill everything and its mother in a dungeon, they can create a group specific to that. If they want to play without equipment at all, they can create a group for that.

There is no issue like people in this thread, and the countless others, are claiming. Just take the initiative and create your own group.

You missed the line in my post, where I said “For the moment the only fix is to create “all welcome” and not “anti meta” lfgs."

We are clearly stating a real problem, that a large portion of the player base is having.

Yes a large portion of the player base wants mounts too. Should they be listened to? Probably. Would listening to them break WvW by massively expanding the response speed of zergs? Yes. Is there a fix that makes people happy, and doesn’t break the game? Probably.

Claiming there is no problem, in a thread full of those people who are both experiencing it, and creating it… puts you firmly on one side of the argument.

It’s not a problem which is why it doesn’t need a fix or solution. You may dislike something in the game but that does not mean it’s an actual problem in the game.

I play full zerker, and often find myself to be the last person alive in dungeons and even high level fractals (when I get a bad pug). Surviving isn’t about what gear you’re wearing, it’s about how well you can play your profession.

But the problem isn’t the gear stats or any of that. The problem is a social one, it’s a people problem, it’s here because we have a lot of ignorant and rude players out there.

BrokenGlass.9356:

We are clearly stating a real problem, that a large portion of the player base is having.

Yes a large portion of the player base wants mounts too. Should they be listened to? Probably. Would listening to them break WvW by massively expanding the response speed of zergs? Yes. Is there a fix that makes people happy, and doesn’t break the game? Probably.

Claiming there is no problem, in a thread full of those people who are both experiencing it, and creating it… puts you firmly on one side of the argument.

Oh, so you have actual data to back up your points? How big is large? What percentage of the playerbase is experiencing this “problem”? I would also like to know the release date of HoT since you seem to be so well informed

Meta builds are pretty much the cancer of this game, slowly killing the community and leaving a big salty tumor in its place, give it time, it’ll get noticed once its big enough ^^

Tongku.5326:

I zerker farmed this game for about year and a half after release. Ultimately it was one of the dominant factors that have led me to quit the game at least for a while, only came back because of the recent condi changes, in which so far, I am disappointed greatly. Only 3 out of all professions condi builds can reasonably keep up, rest are unusable in practical sense. Too many bosses still have immunities / duration reductions on both damaging and controlling conditions. This is A-Net fail.

The current zerker meta is full of problems. It is stale and needs to change for that, in addition to many other reasons.

I also noticed upon my return a vast degradation in player quality, especially, zerkers. Its so bad right now, 90% of these current zerkers are just horribaddie scrubs that come here on these forums and say “no its not the meta you just got paired / grouped with the few baddies, rest of us are good, we sware ….”

yea right….. just EN OH. 90% of you zerkers are exactly and precisely these baddies then spew crap here that its the other guys giving you a bad name, while it isnt, its you.

Did you take a look in the dungeon forum how many community projects are ongoing in helping not only the hardcore community but for a better cooperation game wise? Did you take a look at the prominent users that are constantly giving out advice? Did you read this thread of people apologizing on their behalf?

I see often anti-zerker threads with barely any “representative” from the hardcore community spreading hate. I, on the other hand see people like you, extremists, trying to fuel this conflict instead of letting people shake hands for a better tomorrow. You do not represent the hardcore, elite, casual, zerk, condi, all welcome communities. You are just an extremist that should be ignored. You are part of the group of people that whenever the dust tries to settle, you come it with false statistcs and exaggeration only to fuel the conflict.

Did you play with 90% of the berserker players? Prove it, show me something. Did from all those players, all were hateful? Show me proof. Because I can show you proof that many of the anti-zerkers are elitist and hateful. And no, they are not those casuals, all welcome guys. No, they are open to a constructive discussion. It’s your gang that spills only hate and flame. And for what? You hate the way that someone enjoys the game. You are jealous of it. Ever wonder if it’s a destructive power as you make it to be, why Anet did not do nothing? Because the game allows you to play how you want. But you do not do what you preach. You have become what you hate. You do not want all viable, all optimal. You want players who enjoy zerk to not be able to play at all.

Where is the “spew crap here” posts you are talking about. I see different opinions who agree or not on an issue. Then you came along "90% of you zerkers are exactly and precisely these baddies " “90% of these current zerkers are just horribaddie scrubs”. Show me proof. Show me. If not, take your extremism away.

The bad apples of the hardcore community helped create overtime a bad image. But that is only half of the story. The other half is people like you creating false stereotypes, bad statistics and over-exaggerations in which many new people or less informed players fell as in a trap and now believe bogus stories that we are some sort of demons.

This is the first and the last interaction between us. If you want to create hate and flame do it somewhere else, your extremist group is not welcome, not matter what community it is a part of.

For everyone out there, do not let extremists shape your view on a whole community. Put things in balance. Respect and you will be respected. No one benefits from segregation, and surely no one benefits from segregation caused by flame-seeking extremists. Please ignore these kind of persons and continue on a constructive discussion, whether pro or vs a certain topic. Understanding the other POV is key in understanding their arguments and fears, thus leading to a midway conflict resolution.

@cupcakesandcatnomz How is that? Because you do not like their playstyle in a game that allows you at any second to make your own demands with like minded people while being able to complete any possible content? Or is some sort of hypocrisy in the middle? Bogus statements for the sake of reigniting a fire, such tolerance and acceptance. Oh wait, shouldn’t the zerkers be the “evil” ones?

A good day to everyone!

Lux Dominatoris.3941:

Good day horvgab!

why do you wish for a style that would promote staleness

Because 3-years in, and zerker meta’s so fun.

cupcakesandcatnomz.3924:

Meta builds are pretty much the cancer of this game, slowly killing the community and leaving a big salty tumor in its place, give it time, it’ll get noticed once its big enough ^^

That’s ridiculous. The meta doesn’t exist in games for some frivolous intended design by the devs; it’s there because of how the game elements come together. As long as games have rules, there will be meta in them. It’s not kitten, it’s simply the way players interact with games that are governed by rules and mechanics … and you can’t name a game that isn’t.

Copestetic.5174:

Lux Dominatoris.3941:

Good day horvgab!

why do you wish for a style that would promote staleness

Because 3-years in, and zerker meta’s so fun.

The difference is, if Trinity is introduced you can only play A B and C. As of right now, A is more spread out over a meta format, but I can complete successfully all content with builds from B to Z. Try to understand before giving an opinion, it could save some conflicts. And people are still enjoying zerker. Some, not all of course. I guess it is a bad thing to play how i want.

Zerker builds can be good. They offer 100% max physical damage and can be really good if handled correctly by an experienced player. That’s the problem here, most zerker builds are run by people who have no idea what they’re doing other than to press 1 now followed by 2 in 0.78 seconds. When it all falls down they flame on everyone but themselves for helping fail.
Ha, stop blindly worshipping the promise of big numbers floating on your screen as sadly most of those numbers will be coloured red. Learn to run a class you enjoy and as you get better you might want to swap an armour piece to zerker. More as time goes on. At some point you’ll find your own balance and that’s the point when you can be kicked from a pug dungeon run for any reason and not need to seek approval on these forums.

Torolan.5816:

Seera.5916:

Samnang.1879:

I find all these zerkers only/meta only/guardians only kind of ads really annoying.

People should let other people play however they want, and the class they want. I can do lvl 50 fracs with all rangers. It’s not that hard. I don’t get why some people would go the extra mile to find a guardian only to realise the guardian doesn’t know how to trait his class or use walls. :/

I’d rather have people who like and know their classes, than force people to play a class they don’t like just because that’s what the “meta” says. -_-

So players who want to do the dungeon in the quickest and most efficient manner for PUGs to have to go slower because you don’t like that play style?

“So players who want to do the dungeon in a relaxed and most effort to ratio manner for PUGs to have to go faster because you don´t like that play style?”

Not that I necessarily think that way, but do you see how easily that swings backward, making it a really awkward and weak argument for both sides?

That’s the thing. The game currently lets both groups of players play the way they want to play. The LFG can hold enough characters to explicitly state whether it’s a “speed run” or a “relaxed run”. And my response was to a person who said that LFG’s saying they wanted to do a “speed run” were bad (paraphrasing). So I was just asking for confirmation that they were really asking for the game to stop allowing “speed runners” from grouping together using the LFG because they didn’t like the play style.

Unfortunately, a minority from both sides don’t like that and try to force them to play another way. ANet can’t stop those people from being trolls or jerks no matter what they do. Make everyone have the same stats? They’ll start requiring X AP. Hide that from players, players will find something to use to measure skill and use that to be jerks to people who don’t have it. And there will be people who don’t like metas who join the groups looking for meta players and demand that they carry them because they shouldn’t discriminate.

I’m not skilled enough to wear full zerker. But here’s the thing, i know i’m not. So yeah i’ll be soloing bosses in my soldier armor while my zerker team mates are lying on the floor. If you die, it’s 99% always your own fault. Either you overestimate yourself being able to play zerker in everything, or you just made a mistake. Just own up to it and don’t flame people for your own failures.

Fox.3469:

I’m not skilled enough to wear full zerker. But here’s the thing, i know i’m not. So yeah i’ll be soloing bosses in my soldier armor while my zerker team mates are lying on the floor. If you die, it’s 99% always your own fault. Either you overestimate yourself being able to play zerker in everything, or you just made a mistake. Just own up to it and don’t flame people for your own failures.

<3 this post so much. It’s exactly it. I make mistakes but most of the time I can handle it. But, I’m the first to say “my bad” when I do make a mistake. This is the mentality I wish more had, accepting or your own limitations and self aware. I don’t usually run full meta, I usually take a trait or utility off to get a bit more defense.

Fox.3469:

In an ideal world, the meta would be a bit more tanky, while zerker would be something you could run if you have a support with you to compensate, at least imo.

This is already reality – jus tthat “speedrun groups” expect others to know when to use their skills = can make zerker work.

Fox.3469:

Except this isn’t entirely true. If soldier would be meta for melee for example, zerker could still be viable when combined with a heavy support or heal style build. Guilds could make teams outside of meta, learn to play together, and benefit from actually being coördinated. Right now there is no benefit to running anything else. If soldier were the meta, at least coördinated teams could deviate from that.

I’m doing that, even with full zerkers in wvw – I run with my squishy thieves in the melee group or farther away, depending on the situation. Works best if there’s a friendly boon sharing guard around = that’s exactly what you meant. (The why I’m running with zerkers in a zerg is a long story, I’m not the typical FP thief).

Problem is: There’s 3 game modes in GW2 – and the people on this forum only know PvE and feel “neglected” because one doesn’t need soldier’s in PvE.

It’s kind of funny when I see threads like this. It feels like a clash of both the times and style or “Old School” vs “New School”. From what I can tell you have one group that wants to go back to the times when you could simple take 5 to 8 (depending on the game) random people, team up and go into a dungeon and see what adventure is ahead walking in with your own skill and seeing how well yours and 4 others work well together. I’d be lying if I said I didn’t miss those time cause it was less Mid/Max and more fun to be had where in the end it was a simple as “Boss is down and we are still standing….WIN!”

Now days you have guides left and right tell you what you need, how you need it when you need it and when to do it. Don’t take this the wrong way, a lot of great advice out there and how to make your character as strong as it can get if not more, and for the most part how to win, I mean in the end didn’t we also walk into this dungeon to win too?

My only beef with the new ways of thing is it lacks that….lets say “personal soul” oh it has soul! Just not any of your own really, out side of how well can you read and follow what you are told. But that is a personal beef that for the good of the team I can put aside a lot of the time. I mean some people don’t wanna be in a dungeon longer then they have to be, some just wanna do the best they can do and only get stronger.

I think truth be told the days of forming a team of random people with their own personal builds they didn’t get off a site or youtube is done outside of making your own team, and even then good luck finding 5 or more that feel the same. Thing is, this isn’t really a problem per say, not is it anything that Dev can do, no matter what they change/nerf/add. This is in about every MMO now days.

Like I said, I do miss the days of walking into a dungeon fighting our way to the main boss and having a go at it till we finally won and feeling GREAT about it. More so then the everyone has the same build, with the same moves and same skills, while ain’t nobody go time for “Hello”, WHAM BAM, and we are done, quit team! The only thing I find funny when you think about it is the fact that the only people who still play like that are the very ones making the Guides everyone follows now days XD

They are about the only ones walking in and changing things up, seeing what works and what doesn’t and not quitting cause your team wiped more then once. It’s everyone else that doesn’t
XD

so what your team was full of scrubs it was a good thing they kicked you even though you shoulda just ditched them sooner. but never really cared, dungeons are super casual anyway, i’ll go into dungeons with full condi gear or use unconventional weapons like warrior hammer idgaf

Do we really need yet another one of these threads?

We have beat this horse, rezed it beat it again, then rezed it then beat it….

Zerker gear isn’t the problem. Nomads gear isn’t the problem.

We all know its people who are the problem. You can be part of the problem, or part of the solution. You can respect others in this game play differently then you and wish them well at it. Or you can be this guy…

Fox.3469:

I’m not skilled enough to wear full zerker. But here’s the thing, i know i’m not. So yeah i’ll be soloing bosses in my soldier armor while my zerker team mates are lying on the floor. If you die, it’s 99% always your own fault. Either you overestimate yourself being able to play zerker in everything, or you just made a mistake. Just own up to it and don’t flame people for your own failures.

This whole association with skill to stats needs to stop, especially when completely garbage people in full zerker can push things into walls and pull off a boss kill and succeed. Mentality like this is part of the problem where elitism has infected how we view itemization.

Someone who is using toughness “because he thinks he sucks” is just as much of the problem as the people who think other people suck for not going full zerker.

Treat
Your
Choices
With
Respect

High bunker builds have already been demonstrated by numerous people like Skady Valda or myself and I personally have no problem going full glass in a dungeon solo myself.

I actually want to know who made up that perspective to begin with, that toughness was suppose to be a training wheel to learn content or it was for less skilled players I SERIOUSLY WANT TO KNOW THIS.

I’m sorry to hear that they put you out of the group like that, it should not be like this. This problem you descibed is familiar to me as well. I play meta builds as well, but I use the builds as a sort of “guidelines” (if that’s the proper word for it).

For example: lets say a dungeon meta build for Warrior usualy has signet of Rage as it’s elite-skill. I for one, chose battle standard in case pugs went down (and I tell you, it happend to often that pugs went down).

At first my fellow war innitiated to kick me from the party, because I chose to rezz him instead of buffing my dmg-output.

Pugs are pugs and you never when know what you can expect. Your party should not have pointed fingers at you, instead they should have made some alterations to their build (adapting). I mean: why would you not make some adjustments if you get downed to often..

other meta will prevail only if Anet remove dodge mechanic from the game.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Fox.3469:

I’m not skilled enough to wear full zerker. But here’s the thing, i know i’m not. So yeah i’ll be soloing bosses in my soldier armor while my zerker team mates are lying on the floor. If you die, it’s 99% always your own fault. Either you overestimate yourself being able to play zerker in everything, or you just made a mistake. Just own up to it and don’t flame people for your own failures.

This whole association with skill to stats needs to stop, especially when completely garbage people in full zerker can push things into walls and pull off a boss kill and succeed. Mentality like this is part of the problem where elitism has infected how we view itemization.

Someone who is using toughness “because he thinks he sucks” is just as much of the problem as the people who think other people suck for not going full zerker.

Treat
Your
Choices
With
Respect

High bunker builds have already been demonstrated by numerous people like Skady Valda or myself and I personally have no problem going full glass in a dungeon solo myself.

I actually want to know who made up that perspective to begin with, that toughness was suppose to be a training wheel to learn content or it was for less skilled players I SERIOUSLY WANT TO KNOW THIS.

Tankiness allows easier runs for yourself. Now Toughness often brings you more agro, removing that easiness. The quality in Skady’s build is the ease of play. Now with that going say Knights doesn’t mean you’re not good, it just means you value toughness and all that comes with it. Going Soldiers however you’re going tanky and valuing a safety net, nothing wrong with that but lets not try to hide that it’s an ease of play advantage more than anything. Going Clerics you want to support your team with heals and use toughness to your advantage. If you just want to support your teams with heals but don’t want to utilize the toughness then Zealots is the answer (but STUPID expensive).

All gear stats have value if you play them to their potential. Zerk(or more Glass Zerk/assassin/sinister) is prominent because it’s optimal and IF (big IF) you can handle it it’s the way to go.

People are still missing that noboby has a bad time in the “all welcome” groups.

Allow me to clarify “bad time”, as we all have had a bad group who just spend hours dying…

In every “all welcome” group I’ve ever joined that was not a bad group never have I been told how to play, or that I suck, or threatened to be kicked… or been told that how I want to play is somehow bad…

However, in most “zerker, link gear, X achievement points, speed run” groups I’ve joined (yes on berserker toons, in at minimum full exotics, with builds made to be direct damage. Even occasionally even pulled off metabattle) I have had a “bad time”… I’ve gotten kicked because I died once during a skip… even though it will take them much longer to get a new guy that can catch up by themselves. I’ve gotten kicked, or berated because my skins didn’t look “high level” even when I linked my Zerker gear with Scholar runes.

Look…. no one (at least I hope no one) is saying that all meta groups are like this.

However there are many more chances of having a bad time.

I’ve tried, and failed, to explain the psychology that is the cause (fanboyism of real elite players) and I’ve tried to get y’all to understand that no one is blaming you and your zerk build for all the game’s problems. I’m sure your all great players………

I think it is best summed up by this phrase:
“Individual persons are cool, but people suck.”

What were telling you guys (resist all you want, but its the reason we keep beating this dead horse.) Is that “the best way” is too simple. So… Fanboys think they understand when they just don’t. They presume to tell all of us how to play.

You all can think I’m the toxin that is poisoning the community if you want. Whatever makes you feel however you wanna feel.

I’m talking about facts.

If this game’s elite content soloing youtube posting, super kitten top end guilds, had more than ONE way to play, the fanboys would be to diverse to fall under one label!

then no one could lable the “zerker meta” as the problem… because it wouldn’t be a problem.

It would be much easier for the rest of us to pick the stupid “mean” spiteful people out of the crowd.

and before you say it: yes… respect the LFG. we are, and we do, and we all post “all welcome” any time we want to run…. ANYTHING.

My coment about segregated communities was to make sence through aligory, however… to carry that analogy on forward (as were talking about past events that should not create political problems here) the Speedrun community are the white people in this analogy… while most of them were just regular folks who realized that everyone is the same under the skin, there were loud mouthed bigots that presumed to speak for the rest of us. And they were the people in power meaning that when they said things, people fell in line even if they didn’t agree, and it took an uprising of sane people to fix the problem. The other side here, (those who are pointing out the problem) are the black people here. Which is to say most of them are just upset at being chastised by overt bigotry, and those who are extreme on their side, are just disheartened and don’t believe the white people will ever change.

So hate me for coming down on the right side of civil rights, sorry I’m not a bigot.

Hate me for pointing out the obvious.

BUT PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF THE UNIVERSE AND ALL INTILEGENT THINGS IN IT…. LOCK THIS THREAD!!!!!

Brokenglass. Just because you had your thread closed quite fast does not mean this one deserves to be closed as well. You cannot comprehend how easy the solution is to an nonexistent problem. Make your own party. I see you cannot make a single post without insulting the other group. You cannot express yourself without putting yourself on a pedestal “sorry I’m not a bigot.”, thinking yourself as superior and insult, insult, insult and insult.

What are the facts you are talking about? “I’m talking about facts.” If this meta “Is that “the best way” is too simple” then how come you are dying “because I died once during a skip”. I do not for the love of God believe that you have been kicked for not having “high end skins”.

“Hate me for pointing out the obvious.” Nobody is hating anybody, there is only an argument being discussed. Some people are more emotional than others. You really think of yourself as some sort of VIP, everybody hates you. You do not present any evidence to back up half of what you say by using words like “facts, fanboy, white people” (Do you have problems with White skinned people? Are you some sort of SJW that believes nothing bad can be done to whites?). Stop with political correctness. No one wants this non sense here, some of the western countries deal with it enough in real life.

“If this game’s elite content soloing youtube posting, super kitten top end guilds, had more than ONE way to play, the fanboys would be to diverse to fall under one label!”

THERE IS more than one way to play in those super kitten top end guilds how you call it. It is accepted. Seach for the videos of Skady Valda on Y-Tube for example. Again, do not talk about things you do not have any information about.

Your posts are full of insults, name-calling, stereotyping, entitlement and narcissism while lacking any concrete example backed up by facts. I have provided links in my posts, videos, names etc. In my book you come out as an extremist. You do not want to play a certain way. You want to portray altruism but you only want a selfish way to make all players who like zerker not being able to play. It’s nothing about hate, I do not know you personally, but what I do know about you are the insults you keep pouring in every post along with your narcissist attitude while not being able to demonstrate anything you say with concrete facts, while of course refusing the solution to your so called problem that was always there. One click away.

In this thread opinions are shared. If a mod decides to shut it down, he has a good reason. Stop. Inciting. Hate.

@BrokenGlass: Having multiple gear sets in the meta to the point players don’t use gear as a check for dungeons is not possible. Too many builds share stats and both PvE and WvW have to share the same gear. Balancing on PvE/WvW gear has to take that into account and WvW does have a diverse meta because players are almost always better than AI at this point.

And you can have a bad time in either group. So don’t say that relaxed runs never have any bad runs. Just because they don’t play the meta, doesn’t mean that a “relaxed jerk” is not going to go off on a tirade and try to kick if the run isn’t smooth. The “relaxed jerks” may not want to spend 4 hours in a dungeon because the group keeps wiping (dungeons used to take this long before people figured them out so the time isn’t that much of an exaggeration). There are jerks on both sides of the play style and ignoring the jerks in one group does hurts any argument you make.

Relaxed jerk = player who does not run speed runs and who is also a jerk.

Let’s drop the allegory which is only going to derail the topic as the allegory is not needed (race is always a topic that starts heated discussions no matter the intent, remember the road to hell is paved with good intentions). We get your point, you want more variety in the meta. We disagree with it’s effects on the OP’s problem. Your solution doesn’t solve the OP’s problem.

The meta isn’t the problem for the OP. The problem is jerks. Jerks will be jerks no matter what the meta is. They put your solution into play, the jerks like was mentioned in the OP will still find SOMETHING to use to scapegoat their own mistakes and blame someone other than themselves. ANet can’t change the personality of the players who play the game. Only we can and we do that by reporting those who violate the TOS (and even then it only suspends and/or bans them, reducing the number who play the game at least for a time).

The one build vs multiple builds in the meta debate is an entirely different thing, and that’s complicated by the fact that PvE and WvW share the same gear stats and food buffs and PvE, WvW, and PvP share the same skills and traits. Remember that gear alone doesn’t make a build and there is some variety in the meta despite everyone sharing the same gear set for the most part. And the meta takes into account gear, skills, traits, and food buffs.

And remember that ANet values PvP when it comes to balance so skills and traits will focus on PvP balance over anything else.

I didn’t get through your first post without disagreeing. I have had bad times in everyone welcome groups. Not only do I get slightly frustrated with people not playing their professions to their strengths (no blinds from thieves, no walls from guardian) but it’s not just that. What makes it a bad time is when I make a comment suggesting the use of such tools I get a backlash of hate. Suggesting and trying to educate people of their options gets me yelled at. Not just that, but vulgar comments followed by ignores so I can’t even respond.

Now, in general I do like the “p1” groups over any other comments be they “all goes” or “zerk/meta”. The middle ground seems to be much more reasonable people in my experience.

I do like your quote of “individual persons are cool but people suck” one of my old groups of friends used to use “peoples” as a derogatory term, in that most people suck. Not just in quality of play but also personality. So many Ego’s so much pride, not much humility and understanding.

That all said, your constant references to racism is a good way to get this locked. But, it’s pretty pathetic, it’s not alike AT ALL. We’re not segregating in the sense of forced segregation, we’re trying to play with like minded people, key word there being ‘minded’, not some superficial quality, we’re trying to have fun in the way we find fun. It doesn’t strengthen your argument at all, it just comes off as silly and extremist. Which is the problem in the community, the one you’re trying to combat but instead falling right into the opposite swinging the pendulum right to the other side. Extremism is a plague on this game. So many are die hard to their beliefs to the point they won’t even listen to alternative perspectives. They rather spout the same thing over and over. They rather point fingers and demonize the people who don’t feel the same way as they do.

If we want to make allusions to that type of commentary though I’ll use a phrase I like “forced tolerance isn’t tolerance at all” all forced tolerance does is create resentment. Promote your ideas, try to educate and bring tolerance through tolerance, but demonizing people for their intolerance has never lead to tolerance.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Fox.3469:

I’m not skilled enough to wear full zerker. But here’s the thing, i know i’m not. So yeah i’ll be soloing bosses in my soldier armor while my zerker team mates are lying on the floor. If you die, it’s 99% always your own fault. Either you overestimate yourself being able to play zerker in everything, or you just made a mistake. Just own up to it and don’t flame people for your own failures.

This whole association with skill to stats needs to stop, especially when completely garbage people in full zerker can push things into walls and pull off a boss kill and succeed. Mentality like this is part of the problem where elitism has infected how we view itemization.

Someone who is using toughness “because he thinks he sucks” is just as much of the problem as the people who think other people suck for not going full zerker.

Treat
Your
Choices
With
Respect

High bunker builds have already been demonstrated by numerous people like Skady Valda or myself and I personally have no problem going full glass in a dungeon solo myself.

I actually want to know who made up that perspective to begin with, that toughness was suppose to be a training wheel to learn content or it was for less skilled players I SERIOUSLY WANT TO KNOW THIS.

How dare you.

I said i’m not skilled enough for full berserker. I never said i sucked. There is a big kittening difference. In fact i’m better then 50% of this game’s population because i match my armor type to my playstyle. I know my limits. I don’t have the exact same dodge reaction as when i was 18 years old. Sure i ran some extreme glass cannon builds in GW1 and i wrecked with them, even making it into, and playing in a top 100 pvp guild in the world for about a year back in the day. But i have other priorities now. My current skill level in the game isn’t enough for me to know every instance inside out and i tried zerker and it just didn’t fit for me. I’m still quite good at making builds tough, and i’ve got some tanky setups that to me personally, fit perfectly.

There is nothing shamefull about picking a more tanky option if you feel it works better for you. You aren’t a better player if you choose to run full zerker but lack the skill and knowledge to handle it correctly. So for me personally it’s a choice.

Now i have a few more casual people in my guild. Some who actually do kind of play on a skill level below me, even tough they are lovely people. Often i get asked what i’m running, and when i say soldiers or knights, depending on my build, i get surprised looks. These people die in our guild dungeon groups all the time and run full berserker, because they asked someone what was best, and they answered berserker, without even thinking about who that player is, how he plays and what’s the best suited option for him/her. I’ve showed these people some builds and helped them decide what would fit them better personally, and they are very greatfull. These builds allowed them to play the game the way they wanted.

Now i don’t give a kitten who you think you are, i have a right to play the game the way i want to play it. I have a right to show these builds to whoever is in my guild, or whoever asks for it. That does not mean however we are lesser players. The real bad players do run berserker while having no clue. But these players are often encouraged to do this by elitist pricks that think their way is the best and only way to do things. And they absorb some of that attitude. The example of the OP is a clear example of people wearing zerker armor, but not knowing how to play with it. These people would be better off thinking about their build before blindly making a copy of whatever is meta.

I always try to build around people’s strengths, their prefered weapon, their prefered playstyle. I do the same for myself. Does that mean we are bad players? Hell no. We haven’t had any problems yet within our guild in completing any content. And we will try out the new content coming out with HoT also. And i’m pretty sure we’ll complete it.

My strenght in GW1 used to be super fast reaction times and fast play. I’d say my strength in GW2 is more my buildmaking and knowing wich hits i can take and wich i can’t. And during all these build i’ve been making, and i love making them, i found that skill and stats aren’t related.

People and stats are related, and everyone is different.
My message isn’t “Unskilled players should use toughness.”
It’s “think before you copy something, this person may have way more experience in the game, wich is why this build is working for him and not for you”
Toughness is not the training wheel for unskilled players, it’s a viable choice on it’s own imo, but the problem right now is 99% of new players, when asking for advice, hear the word berserker, buy all that armor and just die over and over and over. Some people even leave the game because of this and we as a community are far to close minded about it. Zerker just doesn’t fit every single player, in fact i’d say most players running it now would have a better time running something else. Especially new people.

Now if anyone would like some advice on building their class to their personal preference, or you have some problems your current build, i’m glad to help.
I however don’t make berserker builds because there are many other people that can teach you those and if you want to play like that and you don’t die every dungeon, you don’t need help anyway.

Zerker is best. Until anet fixes finally this issue that everyone (means non zerker) can join your group do following:

Just Start normally and usually at every dungeon you can see at the first enemy if and who is not zerker. Then just kick these from your group until these “individual specialists” learn that only a full zerker Team is the fastest. Nothing else and even one of these “I play worse because I want” is enough fail for a group to die or fail instantly.

Spread the word until wie finally get gear+buildcheck and then just have fun instead being annoyed by these “specialists”. Especially because mostly these people are only to lazy to farm enough gold for zerk gear and instead they annoy everyone with celestial, soldier vor other useless stats!

Sad. No really.

Never have I thought of myself as any kind of important person... but, I did expect a post just like that in return... hence my invitation to "hate me"... which I recieved...

My expression of the social allegory was to ensure my earlier comment on the matter of past events in America went understood by non Americans. I’m sorry if you read racism in a description of the existance of rasicm.

The core of all these posts (this one, mine, and all the others that pop up every other few days) is the same. One side feels slighted by the other. And and attempt to explain it is met with straw men, and denial of the problem.

If there were no problem, there would be no threads on the matter.

Just like there are no threads about... say... character models having no genetalia. Because its a non problem.

People dont take time out of there day, to talk to an entire community, to try to make it *better* (believe what you want.) to whine about things that don’t exist.

And if you can find one "no genetalia"post, it wouldn’t count as a problem that the *community* is facing untill its a *hot* thread every few days, written by someone else, driven to post in the hopes of making a difference.

I’ll admit that I do come across as arrogant sometimes. And it’s usually due to a disregard I feel for *feelings*.
But I admit this. And I don’t hide from it. I don’t much like it about myself either... which is also a feeling I disregard.

And so I admit, that I and every other *frequent* poster lacks data... why? Do you propose we record every bad group we get into a montage? Or would that be cherry picking?

Should I make a spreadsheet of the general frustration level of groups based on thier lfg sentance?

Then how do you propose I organize the chart?

So... this is the issue with theese threads... the OP posts an emotionally fueled post, cutting right to the heart of the issue... then, like, two agreements and disagreements later, the thread is derailed with everyone and thier kid sister posting. "Well you see here, these extremeists they say this... but if they would only realize that, blah blah blah...."

Then after pages of back and forth someone cuts to the heart of the issue again, and because it’s at the end of a long, and disheartening read, no matter which side you think is right... whatever you type.... no matter how right comes out emotional.

When this gets recognized (like I’m doing now) people take it as an affront... or a personal attack.

The point gets missed again for, who knows how many repetitions of nothing being said.

Allow me to summarize the whole thread in a few bullets.

-I’m part of our community and I see a problem. This is it.

-I’m on the other side of that problem... and im not as bad as *those* people your talking about. So you must be wrong.

-but.... hey, I agree with the first guy!

-stop calling me and everyone like me, that!

Then someone steps in...
-hey, you know you guys sound like this? And its not helping the first guy solve his problem.

-because there is no problem.

-no, really... We’ve all experienced it.

-prove it! I know *I’m* not like *them*, but I identify with them! So this can’t be real!

I don’t hate zerkers. I don’t want to change the way they play to suit some desire of mine. I do in fact have zerker toons. I have been booted from groups (twice) over my skins. I do, in fact, wether you believe me or not, want to make the community a better place to enjoy *our game*.

*I BELIEVE IT WILL BE A BETTER GAME WHEN THE REQUIRED META FOR HIGH END CONTENT IS MORE DIVERSE THAN IT CURRENTLY IS.*

Here’s hoping you read my wall of text, and post about its *meaning* not about one line, or phrase, or allegory that ruffels your feathers. Like everyone else has done.

Fox.3469:

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Fox.3469:

I’m not skilled enough to wear full zerker. But here’s the thing, i know i’m not. So yeah i’ll be soloing bosses in my soldier armor while my zerker team mates are lying on the floor. If you die, it’s 99% always your own fault. Either you overestimate yourself being able to play zerker in everything, or you just made a mistake. Just own up to it and don’t flame people for your own failures.

This whole association with skill to stats needs to stop, especially when completely garbage people in full zerker can push things into walls and pull off a boss kill and succeed. Mentality like this is part of the problem where elitism has infected how we view itemization.

Someone who is using toughness “because he thinks he sucks” is just as much of the problem as the people who think other people suck for not going full zerker.

Treat
Your
Choices
With
Respect

High bunker builds have already been demonstrated by numerous people like Skady Valda or myself and I personally have no problem going full glass in a dungeon solo myself.

I actually want to know who made up that perspective to begin with, that toughness was suppose to be a training wheel to learn content or it was for less skilled players I SERIOUSLY WANT TO KNOW THIS.

How dare you.

I said i’m not skilled enough for full berserker. I never said i sucked. There is a big kittening difference. In fact i’m better then 50% of this game’s population because i match my armor type to my playstyle. I know my limits. I don’t have the exact same dodge reaction as when i was 18 years old. Sure i ran some extreme glass cannon builds in GW1 and i wrecked with them, even making it into, and playing in a top 100 pvp guild in the world for about a year back in the day. But i have other priorities now. My current skill level in the game isn’t enough for me to know every instance inside out and i tried zerker and it just didn’t fit for me. I’m still quite good at making builds tough, and i’ve got some tanky setups that to me personally, fit perfectly.

There is nothing shamefull about picking a more tanky option if you feel it works better for you. You aren’t a better player if you choose to run full zerker but lack the skill and knowledge to handle it correctly. So for me personally it’s a choice.

Now i have a few more casual people in my guild. Some who actually do kind of play on a skill level below me, even tough they are lovely people. Often i get asked what i’m running, and when i say soldiers or knights, depending on my build, i get surprised looks. These people die in our guild dungeon groups all the time and run full berserker, because they asked someone what was best, and they answered berserker, without even thinking about who that player is, how he plays and what’s the best suited option for him/her. I’ve showed these people some builds and helped them decide what would fit them better personally, and they are very greatfull. These builds allowed them to play the game the way they wanted.

Now i don’t give a kitten who you think you are, i have a right to play the game the way i want to play it. I have a right to show these builds to whoever is in my guild, or whoever asks for it. That does not mean however we are lesser players. The real bad players do run berserker while having no clue. But these players are often encouraged to do this by elitist pricks that think their way is the best and only way to do things. And they absorb some of that attitude. The example of the OP is a clear example of people wearing zerker armor, but not knowing how to play with it. These people would be better off thinking about their build before blindly making a copy of whatever is meta.

I always try to build around people’s strengths, their prefered weapon, their prefered playstyle. I do the same for myself. Does that mean we are bad players? Hell no. We haven’t had any problems yet within our guild in completing any content. And we will try out the new content coming out with HoT also. And i’m pretty sure we’ll complete it.

My strenght in GW1 used to be super fast reaction times and fast play. I’d say my strength in GW2 is more my buildmaking and knowing wich hits i can take and wich i can’t. And during all these build i’ve been making, and i love making them, i found that skill and stats aren’t related.

People and stats are related, and everyone is different.
My message isn’t “Unskilled players should use toughness.”
It’s “think before you copy something, this person may have way more experience in the game, wich is why this build is working for him and not for you”
Toughness is not the training wheel for unskilled players, it’s a viable choice on it’s own imo, but the problem right now is 99% of new players, when asking for advice, hear the word berserker, buy all that armor and just die over and over and over. Some people even leave the game because of this and we as a community are far to close minded about it. Zerker just doesn’t fit every single player, in fact i’d say most players running it now would have a better time running something else. Especially new people.

Now if anyone would like some advice on building their class to their personal preference, or you have some problems your current build, i’m glad to help.
I however don’t make berserker builds because there are many other people that can teach you those and if you want to play like that and you don’t die every dungeon, you don’t need help anyway.

Sorry for the double post. But this dude just hit the nail square on the head with more class than I can manage.