Zerker problem
@BrokenGlass: WE GET YOUR POINT. You feel the game will be better off if multiple gear sets were in the meta.
But that does not solve the OP’s problem of getting blamed for being bad by jerks. Those jerks would blame his AP level or his skill level or his class or that he’s just a sheep and doesn’t understand the meta but just follows it because he saw the build online. Jerks will find a reason to “excuse” their behavior and shift the blame of the reason they died onto someone else.
This would be the case even if there was literally only one class and only one build and only gear set in the game. This would also be the case if a game had multiple classes and multiple builds and all were in the meta. Jerks would still exist and we’d still have threads like this where Player A says Player B was mean and kicked them for [not] doing/having Y.
The problem isn’t the meta. The OP’s lack of being meta was just the jerks’ excuse to be a jerk. Nothing more, nothing less. And nothing ANet can do to prevent jerks from being jerks. They can only ban them after they’ve broken the TOS too many times or too harshly.
I’m not skilled enough to wear full zerker. But here’s the thing, i know i’m not. So yeah i’ll be soloing bosses in my soldier armor while my zerker team mates are lying on the floor. If you die, it’s 99% always your own fault. Either you overestimate yourself being able to play zerker in everything, or you just made a mistake. Just own up to it and don’t flame people for your own failures.
This whole association with skill to stats needs to stop, especially when completely garbage people in full zerker can push things into walls and pull off a boss kill and succeed. Mentality like this is part of the problem where elitism has infected how we view itemization.
Someone who is using toughness “because he thinks he sucks” is just as much of the problem as the people who think other people suck for not going full zerker.
Treat
Your
Choices
With
RespectHigh bunker builds have already been demonstrated by numerous people like Skady Valda or myself and I personally have no problem going full glass in a dungeon solo myself.
I actually want to know who made up that perspective to begin with, that toughness was suppose to be a training wheel to learn content or it was for less skilled players I SERIOUSLY WANT TO KNOW THIS.
How dare you.
I said i’m not skilled enough for full berserker. I never said i sucked. There is a big kittening difference. In fact i’m better then 50% of this game’s population because i match my armor type to my playstyle. I know my limits. I don’t have the exact same dodge reaction as when i was 18 years old. Sure i ran some extreme glass cannon builds in GW1 and i wrecked with them, even making it into, and playing in a top 100 pvp guild in the world for about a year back in the day. But i have other priorities now. My current skill level in the game isn’t enough for me to know every instance inside out and i tried zerker and it just didn’t fit for me. I’m still quite good at making builds tough, and i’ve got some tanky setups that to me personally, fit perfectly.
There is nothing shamefull about picking a more tanky option if you feel it works better for you. You aren’t a better player if you choose to run full zerker but lack the skill and knowledge to handle it correctly. So for me personally it’s a choice.
Now i have a few more casual people in my guild. Some who actually do kind of play on a skill level below me, even tough they are lovely people. Often i get asked what i’m running, and when i say soldiers or knights, depending on my build, i get surprised looks. These people die in our guild dungeon groups all the time and run full berserker, because they asked someone what was best, and they answered berserker, without even thinking about who that player is, how he plays and what’s the best suited option for him/her. I’ve showed these people some builds and helped them decide what would fit them better personally, and they are very greatfull. These builds allowed them to play the game the way they wanted.
Now i don’t give a kitten who you think you are, i have a right to play the game the way i want to play it. I have a right to show these builds to whoever is in my guild, or whoever asks for it. That does not mean however we are lesser players. The real bad players do run berserker while having no clue. But these players are often encouraged to do this by elitist pricks that think their way is the best and only way to do things. And they absorb some of that attitude. The example of the OP is a clear example of people wearing zerker armor, but not knowing how to play with it. These people would be better off thinking about their build before blindly making a copy of whatever is meta.
I always try to build around people’s strengths, their prefered weapon, their prefered playstyle. I do the same for myself. Does that mean we are bad players? Hell no. We haven’t had any problems yet within our guild in completing any content. And we will try out the new content coming out with HoT also. And i’m pretty sure we’ll complete it.
My strenght in GW1 used to be super fast reaction times and fast play. I’d say my strength in GW2 is more my buildmaking and knowing wich hits i can take and wich i can’t. And during all these build i’ve been making, and i love making them, i found that skill and stats aren’t related.
People and stats are related, and everyone is different.
My message isn’t “Unskilled players should use toughness.”
It’s “think before you copy something, this person may have way more experience in the game, wich is why this build is working for him and not for you”
Toughness is not the training wheel for unskilled players, it’s a viable choice on it’s own imo, but the problem right now is 99% of new players, when asking for advice, hear the word berserker, buy all that armor and just die over and over and over. Some people even leave the game because of this and we as a community are far to close minded about it. Zerker just doesn’t fit every single player, in fact i’d say most players running it now would have a better time running something else. Especially new people.Now if anyone would like some advice on building their class to their personal preference, or you have some problems your current build, i’m glad to help.
I however don’t make berserker builds because there are many other people that can teach you those and if you want to play like that and you don’t die every dungeon, you don’t need help anyway.Sorry for the double post. But this dude just hit the nail square on the head with more class than I can manage.
And no one in this thread is saying that Fox can’t do what he does or that he is a lesser player. The “true dungeon elites” are perfectly fine with Fox not playing the meta and helping others make builds that are not the meta. The only thing they ask is that those players don’t join LFG’s specifically designed for those who wish to play the meta. And it’s not a bad thing for players who wish to play the meta to be able to play with others who have the same goal.
The ones who do have a problem with it are jerks and they’ll be jerks no matter what ANet does.
I BELIEVE IT WILL BE A BETTER GAME WHEN THE REQUIRED META FOR HIGH END CONTENT IS MORE DIVERSE THAN IT CURRENTLY IS.
How is that going to help? If having one set as the optimal causes all these problems, having multiple sets optimal for different professions will make things worse not better.
Instead of “LF Zerkers” you will have “LF Zerker Ele, Knight Guard, Sinister Necro”, still if you don’t play the gear that your profession is “supposed” to play the meta we will still get posts like this one. The problem will remain.
I BELIEVE IT WILL BE A BETTER GAME WHEN THE REQUIRED META FOR HIGH END CONTENT IS MORE DIVERSE THAN IT CURRENTLY IS.
How is that going to help? If having one set as the optimal causes all these problems, having multiple sets optimal for different professions will make things worse not better.
Instead of “LF Zerkers” you will have “LF Zerker Ele, Knight Guard, Sinister Necro”, still if you don’t play the gear that your profession is “supposed” to play the meta we will still get posts like this one. The problem will remain.
To add to this, even if the number of meta builds gets too large to put into the description, players will find other ways to find others who wish to play like they do. And there will always be a fraction of them that will be jerks.
The jerk fraction is the problem the OP has and changing the meta will not remove that problem.
Read your entire thing Brokenglass, can’t say I agree at all. I’ll leave it there as I feel like it’d be a waste of time to elaborate further.
I BELIEVE IT WILL BE A BETTER GAME WHEN THE REQUIRED META FOR HIGH END CONTENT IS MORE DIVERSE THAN IT CURRENTLY IS.
How is that going to help? If having one set as the optimal causes all these problems, having multiple sets optimal for different professions will make things worse not better.
Instead of “LF Zerkers” you will have “LF Zerker Ele, Knight Guard, Sinister Necro”, still if you don’t play the gear that your profession is “supposed” to play the meta we will still get posts like this one. The problem will remain.
To add to this, even if the number of meta builds gets too large to put into the description, players will find other ways to find others who wish to play like they do. And there will always be a fraction of them that will be jerks.
The jerk fraction is the problem the OP has and changing the meta will not remove that problem.
I don’t think it will make it worse. If the soft trinity really worked (as advertised), theoretically each class should be able to fulfill each role. Of course there will be a meta, there will always be a meta, but at least I’d get to play control or support for a change.
I for one, am not very bothered by this. I play mostly with friends, so I can’t encounter any elitism or bad runs, regardless of the gear, but I know that what we do is suboptimal.
Maybe it’s the MOBA mentality(I’ve played lots of Dota), but I really like the idea of experimenting many builds in many combinations and still have them viable.
Oh well, at least it’s not WoW.
I’m not skilled enough to wear full zerker. But here’s the thing, i know i’m not. So yeah i’ll be soloing bosses in my soldier armor while my zerker team mates are lying on the floor. If you die, it’s 99% always your own fault. Either you overestimate yourself being able to play zerker in everything, or you just made a mistake. Just own up to it and don’t flame people for your own failures.
This whole association with skill to stats needs to stop, especially when completely garbage people in full zerker can push things into walls and pull off a boss kill and succeed. Mentality like this is part of the problem where elitism has infected how we view itemization.
Someone who is using toughness “because he thinks he sucks” is just as much of the problem as the people who think other people suck for not going full zerker.
Treat
Your
Choices
With
RespectHigh bunker builds have already been demonstrated by numerous people like Skady Valda or myself and I personally have no problem going full glass in a dungeon solo myself.
I actually want to know who made up that perspective to begin with, that toughness was suppose to be a training wheel to learn content or it was for less skilled players I SERIOUSLY WANT TO KNOW THIS.
How dare you.
I said i’m not skilled enough for full berserker. I never said i sucked. There is a big kittening difference. In fact i’m better then 50% of this game’s population because i match my armor type to my playstyle. I know my limits. I don’t have the exact same dodge reaction as when i was 18 years old. Sure i ran some extreme glass cannon builds in GW1 and i wrecked with them, even making it into, and playing in a top 100 pvp guild in the world for about a year back in the day. But i have other priorities now. My current skill level in the game isn’t enough for me to know every instance inside out and i tried zerker and it just didn’t fit for me. I’m still quite good at making builds tough, and i’ve got some tanky setups that to me personally, fit perfectly.
There is nothing shamefull about picking a more tanky option if you feel it works better for you. You aren’t a better player if you choose to run full zerker but lack the skill and knowledge to handle it correctly. So for me personally it’s a choice.
Now i have a few more casual people in my guild. Some who actually do kind of play on a skill level below me, even tough they are lovely people. Often i get asked what i’m running, and when i say soldiers or knights, depending on my build, i get surprised looks. These people die in our guild dungeon groups all the time and run full berserker, because they asked someone what was best, and they answered berserker, without even thinking about who that player is, how he plays and what’s the best suited option for him/her. I’ve showed these people some builds and helped them decide what would fit them better personally, and they are very greatfull. These builds allowed them to play the game the way they wanted.
Now i don’t give a kitten who you think you are, i have a right to play the game the way i want to play it. I have a right to show these builds to whoever is in my guild, or whoever asks for it. That does not mean however we are lesser players. The real bad players do run berserker while having no clue. But these players are often encouraged to do this by elitist pricks that think their way is the best and only way to do things. And they absorb some of that attitude. The example of the OP is a clear example of people wearing zerker armor, but not knowing how to play with it. These people would be better off thinking about their build before blindly making a copy of whatever is meta.
I always try to build around people’s strengths, their prefered weapon, their prefered playstyle. I do the same for myself. Does that mean we are bad players? Hell no. We haven’t had any problems yet within our guild in completing any content. And we will try out the new content coming out with HoT also. And i’m pretty sure we’ll complete it.
My strenght in GW1 used to be super fast reaction times and fast play. I’d say my strength in GW2 is more my buildmaking and knowing wich hits i can take and wich i can’t. And during all these build i’ve been making, and i love making them, i found that skill and stats aren’t related.
People and stats are related, and everyone is different.
My message isn’t “Unskilled players should use toughness.”
It’s “think before you copy something, this person may have way more experience in the game, wich is why this build is working for him and not for you”
Toughness is not the training wheel for unskilled players, it’s a viable choice on it’s own imo, but the problem right now is 99% of new players, when asking for advice, hear the word berserker, buy all that armor and just die over and over and over. Some people even leave the game because of this and we as a community are far to close minded about it. Zerker just doesn’t fit every single player, in fact i’d say most players running it now would have a better time running something else. Especially new people.Now if anyone would like some advice on building their class to their personal preference, or you have some problems your current build, i’m glad to help.
I however don’t make berserker builds because there are many other people that can teach you those and if you want to play like that and you don’t die every dungeon, you don’t need help anyway.Sorry for the double post. But this dude just hit the nail square on the head with more class than I can manage.
And no one in this thread is saying that Fox can’t do what he does or that he is a lesser player. The “true dungeon elites” are perfectly fine with Fox not playing the meta and helping others make builds that are not the meta. The only thing they ask is that those players don’t join LFG’s specifically designed for those who wish to play the meta. And it’s not a bad thing for players who wish to play the meta to be able to play with others who have the same goal.
The ones who do have a problem with it are jerks and they’ll be jerks no matter what ANet does.
I agree with you, i don’t mind people playing META if they want to.
BUT if they answer a new player in chat when he’s asking advice, and they are feeding him metabuilds, they better be prepared to help this player if he would end up in their party. And that’s where it goes wrong. Allot of the people i’ve talked to in my guild, most being a bit older, had situation like this where they got a full berserker set, got ready, joined a group, didn’t really knew what to do, died, got shouted at with lines like “please uninstall” and got kicked.
Most groups aren’t even trying to explain things. Because it’s a speedrun omg noobs you need to know exactly what to do. How are they supposed to learn then?
If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.
The problem is many people think blind mechanics make the game and forget about the part where they must play it first. In other words, some people adopt the meta without knowing how to play it, and then blame their own failure on something (or someone) else. They think meta = sure win.
I understand you, horvgab. The “not enough dps” excuse is very, very common, and the worst part is, in some cases is actually true.
And, although the “make your own group” is the best we can do to avoid the problem, the problem still exists: there is a “zerker religion” in the game, wich ocassionally sprouts zealots that see pure DPS as the only way to play the game, EVEN WHEN THEY THEMSELVES CAN’T PLAY IT PROPERLY. I haven’t had too much problems with them, but the few times that I did, have been really bad experiences.
Why is this a problem for Anet? Because giving people with fanatical ideas tools to support them is never worth it. A rigid and long lived meta creates rigid behaviours, and that gives birth to elitism, bad manners and grief.
I think Anet is making the effort to answer this, though. All the new content, while very forgiving with Zerk fans, looks also very “not zerker oriented” to me.
Lets wait and see.
unfortunately, anet balances a lot of their stuff around pvp :c
BUT if they answer a new player in chat when he’s asking advice, and they are feeding him metabuilds, they better be prepared to help this player if he would end up in their party.
But that’s a people problem. Those that just feed metabuilds to others often don’t know how to play them well enough themselves, and don’t care to (or simply can’t) learn everything needed to make a metabuild really work.
A lot of people share the mentality “if the best use this, it has to be the best equipment”, and don’t understand that there’s a lot more to being good (and much more to being “the best”) than just equipment, especially in this game.
The problem is not the existance of berserker/assassin/sinister/insert-full-damage-stat-set-of-your-choice equipment, nor the fact that in a game designed around reducing the life of whatever’s in your way, full damage is the ultimate tool to do so. The problem is people that don’t understand what parts full damage as well as supportive stats actually play in fights, and excluding others solely on the concept “if they don’t play like the best, they must be doing it wrong”.
It’s not a berserker problem, it’s a “wannabe pro” problem, and people trying to show off and feel better by finding a scapegoat when things go wrong. Fortunately, there are many more people around who really know what they’re doing and take the time to explain things and/or adjust their playstyle when grouped up with less experienced players. Posting about all the nice groups and nice people around just doesn’t make as good a headline as being confronted with some rotten egg or other.
There’s another problem.
Metabuilds are built assuming other players in your team also have meta builds. If you are alone or don’t have other players with meta builds on your team, then the metabuilds can be quite lacking.
For example, take the Guardian. Meta build can be found here. You can see there are several decisions that are good in an organized group, but not necessarily good elsewhere.
#1: The build assumes large amounts of outside fury, so it takes right-hand strength + retribution. A more newb friendly build would take Radiant Fire and Inner Fire for maximum self fury stacking, and also more flexibility outside of running a one-handed weapons.
#2: It takes Zealous Wrath for a 5% increase in damage (plus minor heal) because the build assume vulnerability will be handled by outside forces. A more ubiquitous build would take Blinding Jeopardy, and then take advantage of the blinds on sword/focus/GS/VoJ to have bursts of higher damage than Zealous Blade.
#3: Unscathed Contender is a very difficult-to-use trait, especially since aegies is prioritized over focus blocks. A newb friendly build would take much greater advantage using either of the other traits.
#4: With the changes from #2, Amplified Wrath would be better to take than Perfect Inscription. PI gives the signet a 36 point boost, which is overall quite insignificant, but maximum DPS builds try to squeeze as much as they can.
#5: All notes regarding honor and the hammer are relegated to a completely different build. The honor line is pretty good for new players, since it gives vigor on crit, might on crit, Pure of Body, and Force of Will. The hammer is also an easy spec to run, giving entire teams permanent protection. This isn’t taken, though, since meta builds assume perfect play and outside might, so there’s no use for these otherwise useful traits.
EDIT: #6: The sigils chosen are force and night, assuming that all other utilities will be handled. But without excess might stacking, sigil of strength’s additional might boosts could outperform both of them.
Combine all this together, and you end up with a build that performs better assuming perfect play and group support. Take those two factors away, and it is arguably sub-par to Zeal/Radiance/Honor.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
Ok, my playstlye doesn’t fit with zerker team, and I’ll never play with them again, but EVERYBODY play with zerker.
Surprisingly, despite everyone saying how easy GW2 is, just having zerker gear doesn’t make a team output enough DPS to kill things before they kill the team.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Zerker means you have to know how to mitigate/prevent damage. If you die often in an easy dungeon like TA the group was just kitten and you were the one to blame. The little more DPS you got with full zerk didn’t make a big difference.
‘would have/would’ve been’ —> correct
‘would of been’ —> wrong
‘would of been’ —> wrong