Guild Wars 2

First, before I propose anything, I have to sat, I just don’t like stacking. I probably never will… Thematically, it makes no sense…. why do five warriors have an easier time fighting a centaur in a closet, than in an open field? Why should it be able to work as the obviously best tactic for dps? I feel like clustering up should be for positioning, like trying to get Mai Trin into the lightning fields… which isn’t “stacking” in the traditional sense, the group lightly clusters to force her where they want her to go. It isn’t clustering in a corner, where the effects of the fight become moot, and they can aoe cleanse each other, or stand where the boss can’t hit them.

I think that players should be punished, the longer, the tighter, and the more players in the cluster.

Let’s call this debuff, “cramped” or “claustrophobia” or perhaps “cluster-kittened” whatever name you like for the moment.

Imagine it’s an interaction between each set of players, (so only the two players stacking are peanalized. and the range should be short, so its easy to avoid being stacked, while still being close.) and every time one more player enters the stack the debuff gets worse. Something like this…. the two ranges (X———-X) are showing the relitave distance to each other from the center of the character model.

10———10: 60% stat reduction from gear and food after 8 seconds, cd never reduced. players knocked back 30, and are hit by friendly cleave and aoe condition applications at 10% effectiveness. Whenever a player hits a friendly with his moves, it plays some “ooh! sorry mate!” audio, and adds to the cd of that skill, 50% of chill’s cd increase. Degrades to the 30 range debuff immediately on moving away

30———30 40% deubff to gear stats and food after 10 seconds, cd reduced but two seconds per player in the stack. Each player gains 3/4 second of weakness, and 3/4 second of swiftness pulsing every second until the players break the stack. Auto degrade debuff on separation, allow count up on closing.

50———-50 20% debuff to player’s stats from gear and food after 5 seconds, cd reduced by one second per player in the stack. Auto remove debuff at 60, restart debuff application timer on player distance closure.

60———-60 No effect

this means that players have to pay attention to positing, while having ranges short enough to allow a group of 5 melee players, to, so long as they are moving, never get clustered, but also never to stack.

what I’m proposing here isn’t the end all be all, its just a half baked theory about how to eliminate stacking. If you think its an alright idea, how would you improve on it? If you think its rubbish…. why? If you think stacking is the most aewsomesauce thing sense sliced bread…. why do you think that?

I’m curious to see what people think….

I feel that stacking takes no skill…. (unless your a HUGE charr or norn, and then minimal amounts.)

what do you guys think?

First of all let’s look at the different scenarios that you’ve put together in one bag: Stacking in a corner, stacking on a boss and stacking on a safe-spot.

Using safe-spots (spots where the boss can’t hit you) is actually bugusing and therefore forbidden. Still the best course of action would be to remove those safe-spots from the game. Add a boulder or some other kind of obstacle and it’s done.

Stacking in a corner is usually done to lure groups of enemies on one spot. The only reason why this works is because of the horrible AI. Rework the AI, so that melees use their defensive abilities before engaging and ranged mobs walk in an arc around the corner, always keeping their distance, and the problem is solved. It’s really as simple as that.

Stacking on a boss is for boonsharing. Actually there is no reason to directly stack on top of each other as long as everyone is in range for the buffs. Some kind of visual indicator for the range of buffs (be it from combos or other buffs) would be nice, so that players see what’s the range they can move in and get used to it.

Precisely what BunjiKugashira said. When talking about stacking, please always clearly elaborate what you actually mean.

Using safe-spots is considered a bug and can be reported as such (it even frequently gets fixed). There is no need to change any gameplay in that case.

Stacking in a corner in order to bunch up mobs maximizes cleaving and debuffs. It comes with the additional risk of being attacked from multiple sources at once in return. That’s why this is combined with blocks/blinds and similar cc in order to work successfully. So it does indeed take a minimum amount of skill. Again, no gameplay change required.

Lastly, stacking on the boss simply ensures that the party is sharing boons and whatever else. Again, no gameplay change required. On the contrary, if you are intentionally staying out of my boon-range, there is obviously a learn-to-play issue involved.

Lol, there isn’t even a reason to “stack” ( think you mean LoS ) on bosses anymore ( check the world records from the past year ). That was like close to a year ago. This doesn’t show anything except the fact the OP is way out of touch with dungeons.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Lol, there isn’t even a reason to “stack” ( think you mean LoS ) on bosses anymore ( check the world records from the past year ). That was like close to a year ago. This doesn’t show anything except the fact the OP is way out of touch with dungeons.

Nope, stacking simply means all players standing on each others feet. You don’t need a corner for that. Nowadays you simply stack right where the boss stands.

Completely unnecessary.

In stead, how about just fixing the dungeons so that it isn’t the default most effective way to fight most mobs?

It’s a cool strategy, but it’s way too useful in almost every encounter with very little effort required on the part of those using it.

I know people complain about instadeath aoes, but really, how bad would it be if just plain more mobs had abilities designed to scatter or move people around so they can’t camp a corner spot long enough to clear a room?

People stack because it’s effective, but it’s not very much fun. I’d like dungeons to be more fun and better leverage gw2’s highly kinetic combat system.

BrokenGlass.9356:

I feel that stacking takes no skill….

And moving around while spamming skills does?

Your post makes no sense, the so called “stacking” is just more efficient because boons only get spread in melee range.
Pulling bosses in corners and stacking there originates from the old FGS days when you could melt bosses with it, but its still efficient now.
You can perform attacks like Whirlwind Attack or Fiery Whirl against a wall so it hits every damage tick, increasing damage and also improving might stacking from a warrior perspective.
You’re basically asking Arenanet to remove efficiency and force people to range a boss, just because you prefer to.

Now, I do agree that they should add mechanics to make mindlessly standing in 1 place and spamming your skills harder, but not by adding stupid debuffs.
In my opinion Anet should make boss encounters (a lot) harder, and add more punishing mechanics that actually require you to use your dodge key.
Lupi is a great example of this, too bad people ruin it by using stupid wallsploits, and Anet doesn’t care enough to fix it :/

Oh Oh Oh I know the answer to that. Get better? Pugs are using corner stacking only because it’s an easier method and because they are used to it. In speed run there is maybe 5 bosses that are worth doing in a corner, if you count optional bosses that number is maybe 10. That for all dungeons/fractals of the game, which represent a tiny percentage of all fight.

Not our problem or the game’s problem if pugs are bad and use easy inefficient tactics.

You know, when left 4 Dead had this same problem, they responded in l4d2 by creating the charger and spitter. Those mobs are effective at splitting a camp without being annoyingly OP. The charger just nabs a guy and CCs him in a way that often requires other members to leave the stack and the spitter drops an aoe that’s easy to avoid without taking much damage, but suicide to camp in.

Neither of these prevent stacking (which is still important in that game, and a valid strategy) but they prevent camping in one place for extended periods

Maybe we need some charge/spitter style mobs here and there or something. You know, like the chargers and spitters in the new mordrem army.

I’ve always said something like a “Crowded” debuff might help wvw zergs spread out a bit, but I think PopeUrban’s point is more appropriate for normal content, just make not stacking the better option without being horrible about it.

Problem does not exist, nobody just stack randomly. Why do people keep making up this imaginary scenario?

BunjiKugashira.9754:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Lol, there isn’t even a reason to “stack” ( think you mean LoS ) on bosses anymore ( check the world records from the past year ). That was like close to a year ago. This doesn’t show anything except the fact the OP is way out of touch with dungeons.

Nope, stacking simply means all players standing on each others feet. You don’t need a corner for that. Nowadays you simply stack right where the boss stands.

I am aware of what stacking means. I think the OP meant LoS not stack. Seeing as he said about a closet. And I am aware you stack right on the boss these days. that’s what I was trying to point out.

I wrote a somewhat lengthy thread about this awhile ago. Nearly everything I said there still applies here.

so the evil centaur you have been trying to track down that has kidnapped the queen, messed up the manor and enslaved or killed all the staff deserves a “fair and honorable fight with arbitrary rules” when you finally track him down to deliver justice?

…please. gang up on him, kick him in the shins (all four) and lay the beatdown. NPC enemy brutality is ok (stacking). this is a FANTASY VIDEO GAME.

If you are really that sick of stacking, go join your local bushido.

It makes sense: Most weapon attacks cleave, so by stacking you dish out more hits than when everybody runs around. That against single and multiple targets. Plus boon sharing – we would do the same in real life.

Tried to teach the new players on my servers how to cap camps today – same story, if they’re running around in a camp full of npcs you waste your energy and time.

PopeUrban.2578:

You know, when left 4 Dead had this same problem, they responded in l4d2 by creating the charger and spitter. Those mobs are effective at splitting a camp without being annoyingly OP. The charger just nabs a guy and CCs him in a way that often requires other members to leave the stack and the spitter drops an aoe that’s easy to avoid without taking much damage, but suicide to camp in.

Neither of these prevent stacking (which is still important in that game, and a valid strategy) but they prevent camping in one place for extended periods

Maybe we need some charge/spitter style mobs here and there or something. You know, like the chargers and spitters in the new mordrem army.

Think I’m gonna reinstall L4D2. Your post made me want to play it again lol.

Sometimes I hear the jockey when I’m walking alone at night down a poorly lit street…

“It comes with the additional risk of being attacked from multiple sources at once in return. "

Speaking of which guardians, please don’t use that skill where all the mobs get separated, it’s great for solo play or helping downed players but during a farming session is simply trolling.

PopeUrban.2578:

You know, when left 4 Dead had this same problem, they responded in l4d2 by creating the charger and spitter. Those mobs are effective at splitting a camp without being annoyingly OP. The charger just nabs a guy and CCs him in a way that often requires other members to leave the stack and the spitter drops an aoe that’s easy to avoid without taking much damage, but suicide to camp in.

Neither of these prevent stacking (which is still important in that game, and a valid strategy) but they prevent camping in one place for extended periods

Maybe we need some charge/spitter style mobs here and there or something. You know, like the chargers and spitters in the new mordrem army.

Mordrems are cheap enough as they are, you have the chargers that knock down and have tracking distance attacks, others with homing bugs, heals, cripples that last too long, and lifesteal fields.

Agemnon.4608:

Speaking of which guardians, please don’t use that skill where all the mobs get separated, it’s great for solo play or helping downed players but during a farming session is simply trolling.

My aoe agrees wholeheartedly with you. Nothing frustrates it more.

Agemnon.4608:

PopeUrban.2578:

You know, when left 4 Dead had this same problem, they responded in l4d2 by creating the charger and spitter. Those mobs are effective at splitting a camp without being annoyingly OP. The charger just nabs a guy and CCs him in a way that often requires other members to leave the stack and the spitter drops an aoe that’s easy to avoid without taking much damage, but suicide to camp in.

Neither of these prevent stacking (which is still important in that game, and a valid strategy) but they prevent camping in one place for extended periods

Maybe we need some charge/spitter style mobs here and there or something. You know, like the chargers and spitters in the new mordrem army.

Mordrems are cheap enough as they are, you have the chargers that knock down and have tracking distance attacks, others with homing bugs, heals, cripples that last too long, and lifesteal fields.

You may want to re-read that post. Especially the part where I said chargers(teragriffs) and spitters (trolls) were already in the mordrem army.

What bugs me is “stack and whack”, specifically: the case where you stand exactly on top of each other and furiously mash whatever skills don’t make you move, and get chewed out if you break away even for a second (even if you immediately come right back).

I can only think of a few places where that happens anymore, but it’s thoroughly infuriating. I get staying close for boon sharing, AoE cleanses/heals/etc, that part makes sense, but it seems to me that “stay close enough to benefit from PBAoE buffs” is not quite the same thing as “stack and don’t even think about moving”. Maybe my bad experiences are just with rare jerks, I’m not sure.

I like the idea of camp-splitter mobs, though: yes, exactly like some of the Mordrem do. Note the Mordrem also have some mobs that resist direct damage (but aren’t immune) and take normal damage from conditions, while others heal and cleanse conditions but are rather vulnerable to being spiked down by zerk-thieves and the like. I think ANet might actually be testing out some ideas for how to keep combat more interesting, and I’ll be quite interested to see how that turns out.

Sure, staying close is efficient – so, how does a good group handle it when the mobs launch folks or drop AoEs that it’s suicide to stack in? Well, they move around, enough to avoid death, while still staying close. Doing that well actually does take some skill. So far, so good!

If your doing dungeons

Just bring 1 Sinister ele and 1 DPS PS banner warrior.
Add :
1-3 Sinister/Balthazar burning guards,
Stirr Carefully; Your DPS/DOT mix-drink is now ready (kittentail is blocked But bloody mary isn’t.)

Alternatively use
3 Sinister/Balthazar burning rangers A/T with Fire drakes and Reef Drakes
1 Sinister/Balthazar burning engineer
1 DPS PS banner warrior (LB/GS)
Mix ever so carefully, Chance of spontaneous combustion…

Light the BBQ:
-Have the ele/engineer stack might, 25 stacks should be nice.
-Warrior stack banners & empower allies
then collectively immolate your boss the added 830 condi dmg and 1000 power from the buffs and might stacks will help,( so will 3 guards casting quickness and Whirling in the Firefields) and the Warrior should remain in combat and keep might at 25….

Scroll out and watch: Your Roast will melt before your eyes, At recharge reapply all burning.When opting for the rangers make sure you spread out staying withing melee range and keep health above 90% for a nice toxic & bloody BBQ..

Then move on to next BBQ.

Now you know why it’s called Citadel of Flames, versions I to VIII

/joke

Jade Nekotenshi.8702:

What bugs me is “stack and whack”, specifically: the case where you stand exactly on top of each other and furiously mash whatever skills don’t make you move, and get chewed out if you break away even for a second (even if you immediately come right back).

I can only think of a few places where that happens anymore, but it’s thoroughly infuriating. I get staying close for boon sharing, AoE cleanses/heals/etc, that part makes sense, but it seems to me that “stay close enough to benefit from PBAoE buffs” is not quite the same thing as “stack and don’t even think about moving”. Maybe my bad experiences are just with rare jerks, I’m not sure.

I like the idea of camp-splitter mobs, though: yes, exactly like some of the Mordrem do. Note the Mordrem also have some mobs that resist direct damage (but aren’t immune) and take normal damage from conditions, while others heal and cleanse conditions but are rather vulnerable to being spiked down by zerk-thieves and the like. I think ANet might actually be testing out some ideas for how to keep combat more interesting, and I’ll be quite interested to see how that turns out.

Sure, staying close is efficient – so, how does a good group handle it when the mobs launch folks or drop AoEs that it’s suicide to stack in? Well, they move around, enough to avoid death, while still staying close. Doing that well actually does take some skill. So far, so good!

If you “break away” you will stop getting party buffs and mobs will scatter which completely defeats the point of balling them up. Also if in play you find yourself just “furiously mash whatever skills don’t make you move” then you might not be very good.

I get that you’ll stop getting buffs if you roll across the room and stay there. If you dodge-roll a short distance (probably still in melee range, or not far from), then run right back, you miss what? One, two stacks of might? Obviously it’s better if nobody has to dodge and nobody goes down.

Also, the furiously mashing bit? That’s not what I do, that’s what the particular bad group that spawned that aversion ordered me (and everyone else in the group) to do: “No skills other than auto-attack and hundred blades”. And then proceeded to kick the guardian for using GS#3. Yep, that was an abnormally awful group.

So yes, possibly I’m such an awful player that I should be banned. Or possibly you misinterpreted what I wrote. I’m not talking about the guy who runs out to 1500 and shoots. Obviously that doesn’t work especially well. I’m talking about the specific brand of jerk that says “if you touch WSAD or dodge, YOU ARE WRONG, BIRDBRAIN.” These guys are really rare, but they’re also pretty nasty to run into.

Watch the videos of folks doing speedclears, they can and do use leaps, whirls, etc, against targets at close range. That’s fine. Enforcing “stand there and autoattack or kick” is what is a fun-sucker. If you don’t do that, then awesome: I’m not complaining about you! As I’ve said before, not many folks do that.

I use GS#3 all the time, I stay with the group. It is a targeted skill, you can “leap” and not move. It is a useful blind. Anybody who gets mad at you for blinding the enemy is an idiot.

That’s what I mean: that was an uncommonly awful group! He didn’t even leave the stack (at all, not even a short distance), but “well, the model moved, so you did it wrong”. Yeah.

Doesn’t help that it was pretty much my first run-in with “stack and whack”. Bad first impressions, and all that.

short answer: Anet won’t punish players for playing the way they want to play.

Also, Anet has been emphasizing the need for builds outside of the berserker mindset moving forward in Heart of Thorns.

How about instead, if players get stronger when stacked. So do mobs.

Each mob brings their own boons to share and/or their own CC. If they stack with one of mob, they use it.

A enemy Ascalon Monk can give boons to every mob. A warrior can give block effects to everyone. A Necromancer can drop a well of darkness.

BrokenGlass.9356:

First, before I propose anything, I have to sat, I just don’t like stacking.

I think there’s no problem to resolve, when the first paragraph begins with “I just don’t like…” instead of “here’s why it’s bad for the game and the community.” Lots of people “don’t like” that rangers can’t perma-stow pets or that mesmer damage requires illusions. However, that’s how the game was designed and balanced, so it’s beholden on those proposing a change to discuss why it hurts the game.

As has been mentioned numerous times, there always will be some sort of optimal strategy. Right now, that happens to be stacking. And the reasons for that are varied (foe AI, range for buffs and especially combos, …), so any response to adjusting it will also have to be varied. “Cramped” or “claustrophobia” as defined by the OP is a mechanic to punish those using the optimal strategy; it doesn’t address the various reasons that stacking is beneficial.

tl;dr first establish that there’s an issue for the game, not for any particular individual. Then make sure that the adjustment accounts for the root causes, rather than addresses the symptoms.

edit: context

dom.2748:

Problem does not exist, nobody just stack randomly. Why do people keep making up this imaginary scenario?

people bring it up because it does happen.

in fact, so often that i regularly hear bad players say “well, sorry i keep dying, but i don’t know where to stack here!” or the whole party dies because they are all stacked up in a corner, then blame me for their deaths because i chose to play the mechanics of the encounter…. ‘aetherblades fractal, champion fritz’

also i agree with the second poster’s comments about enemy AI. That would fix a lot.

like i said in my OP, it’s not an end all be all solution, but it seemed like a good idea, then it got trumped by the ‘updated AI idea’… cool problem solved. thanks for that.

Jade Nekotenshi.8702:

That’s what I mean: that was an uncommonly awful group! He didn’t even leave the stack (at all, not even a short distance), but “well, the model moved, so you did it wrong”. Yeah.

Doesn’t help that it was pretty much my first run-in with “stack and whack”. Bad first impressions, and all that.

You encounter try hards. People that think they are good, but need a strict setup to be able to work properly. Can’t adapt and can’t even play efficiently (even if they think they do). They are the worst, but they exist in all game. It’s life man, we all need to learn how to deal with them.

What I’d really like to see is a diverse array of mob AI strategies, so that no one trick (be that one trick stacking, kiting, chillspam or something else) will be the perfect way to beat them all.

This might result in content sufficiently hard that a random PUG will have real trouble with it. As long as clearing that content isn’t effectively mandatory for progression, that’s mostly OK. People will learn, or those sorts of fights will become major skill gates, and I’d be OK with that. WoW and EverQuest had raids that random pick-up raid groups would have major issues with, and that wasn’t the end of the world. Wouldn’t be here either.

Now, if that’s all there were, obviously, that’s a problem, but that’s not what I’m suggesting. I’m suggesting that, in keeping with the “something for everyone” theme of GW2, you have some dungeons that can be easily stack-and-whack speedcleared, some that require tons of rabbiting around due to anti-stack mechanics, still others that need something else (use your imagination here). Then, if one encounter turns out to be so hard that none but the elite succeed, make that same reward available in another way: sPvP, WvW, etc.

(PvP, by the way, is a great example of “actually challenging, but not ‘only the ultimate need apply’”)

runeblade.7514:

How about instead, if players get stronger when stacked. So do mobs.

Each mob brings their own boons to share and/or their own CC. If they stack with one of mob, they use it.

A enemy Ascalon Monk can give boons to every mob. A warrior can give block effects to everyone. A Necromancer can drop a well of darkness.

I really like this idea. Seems logical, counterable, and if it’s confined to instances it wouldn’t break open world zergfest content.

PopeUrban.2578:

runeblade.7514:

How about instead, if players get stronger when stacked. So do mobs.

Each mob brings their own boons to share and/or their own CC. If they stack with one of mob, they use it.

A enemy Ascalon Monk can give boons to every mob. A warrior can give block effects to everyone. A Necromancer can drop a well of darkness.

I really like this idea. Seems logical, counterable, and if it’s confined to instances it wouldn’t break open world zergfest content.

I’m gonna have to second this. it would make my boon-strip necro build viable in pve. (I currently only use it in pvp, and then only in certain moods… or when I see 3 guardians on the other team, ect.)

@Jade, as you pointed out, a lot of the mobs in silverwastes do exactly what they need to, in order to increase pressure on players. I hope that HoT goes more heavily in this direction.

Ideally, we should have mobs that act like players, giving themselves boons, putting out scary amounts of conditions, and stuns…. reacting to your attacks in an intelligent way…. like trying to get out of aoe’s, or using condi cleanse.

The only thing this does not address is the existing content, which should be patched in the wake of HoT. As the lead designer of A-net said at PAX “we don’t leave a wasteland of old content in our wake.” which seems mostly true, but this should apply to all the existing dungeons, and all it will do is refresh the speed-clear community into accidental agreement with the non-speedclear, non-noob community (to which the vast majority of us belong). and then… things would be better for everyone.

PopeUrban.2578:

runeblade.7514:

How about instead, if players get stronger when stacked. So do mobs.

Each mob brings their own boons to share and/or their own CC. If they stack with one of mob, they use it.

A enemy Ascalon Monk can give boons to every mob. A warrior can give block effects to everyone. A Necromancer can drop a well of darkness.

I really like this idea. Seems logical, counterable, and if it’s confined to instances it wouldn’t break open world zergfest content.

More synergies between/among mobs would be good. (The mordremoth do this a bit, as did some of the foes in Guild Wars Beyond — for example, Mordrem Menders heal other mordrem, making them really annoying if not killed early.)