Guild Wars 2

I just now took my time calculated the difference between a full exotic character and one with all 6 ascended trinkets in regard to the berserker set.

The result did shock me. Throgh these 6 trinkets u gain around 10% more dps in comparison to your exotic counterpart.

For the math and stats i refered to the wiki. And didn’t add any traits, buffs, runes or sigils. So in the end the relative value-difference will be slightly lower.

A full exotic lvl 80 charakter in berserker gear has 916+1002 power, 916+698 precision and 59% extra crit dmg. That transitions into 1918 power, 37% crit chance and 209% crit dmg.
With ascended trinktes u get 68 power, 30 precision and 10% crit dmg. that means a total of 1986 power, 39% crit chance and 219% crit dmg.

Now from the total dps formula u can get a relative comparison:
(1986*139*219)/(1918*137*209)=1,101

In actual combat that value will be slighly lower due to extra stats on runes, buffs and traits, but don’t forget that u still have 6 armor slots and the weapon left. And especially the base dmg on weapons influences the total dmg directly. So a 5% stronger base value will mean 5% more dmg.

I’m stupid when it comes to math so I’ll just assume your math is right.

The insignificance of stats comes from skillful play, you’re ability to dodge an attack or your opponents ability to dodge an attack more than makes up for any statistical difference.

In a perfect world the player with ascended would be 10% stronger than the player in exotics but we don’t live in a perfect world and everyone makes mistakes. I wear full exotics + 1 ascended piece and I’ve been killed 1v1 by upleveled players before, conversely I’ve also won 2v1s before as well.

Silver.8791:

I just now took my time calculated the difference between a full exotic character and one with all 6 ascended trinkets in regard to the berserker set.

The result did shock me. Throgh these 6 trinkets u gain around 10% more dps in comparison to your exotic counterpart.

For the math and stats i refered to the wiki. And didn’t add any traits, buffs, runes or sigils. So in the end the relative value-difference will be slightly lower.

A full exotic lvl 80 charakter in berserker gear has 916+1002 power, 916+698 precision and 59% extra crit dmg. That transitions into 1918 power, 37% crit chance and 209% crit dmg.
With ascended trinktes u get 68 power, 30 precision and 10% crit dmg. that means a total of 1986 power, 39% crit chance and 219% crit dmg.

Now from the total dps formula u can get a relative comparison:
(1986*139*219)/(1918*137*209)=1,101

In actual combat that value will be slighly lower due to extra stats on runes, buffs and traits, but don’t forget that u still have 6 armor slots and the weapon left. And especially the base dmg on weapons influences the total dmg directly. So a 5% stronger base value will mean 5% more dmg.

No, actually you’re grotesquely wrong in your math. But it’s been gone over in so many active threads already… sigh…

OK, fine, dug up some of the math from four pages back. This was using (ultimately) four pieces, the rings, ammy and backpiece. As it shows, the damage increase (not dps, there is no dps calculation. Just damage.) is only 2.27% for these four items. A different post shows the increase in critical chance is actually less than one percent. Anyhow… the math!

Only amulets and rings? Will do. First, the calculation for damage:
Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)
Now, when comparing two different damages and calculate the percent change we know that the coefficient, armor and weapon damage, being constant, negate each other since they’ll be equally represented above and below the line when dividing. Hence they can be left out or substituted with numbers that make the math easy. As such, I did my calculations based on my mesmer. First, the amulet. The exotic I had was the Ruby Orichalcum of the berserker flavor, the ascended is the berserker equivalent. Power with the exotic = 1982, with the ascended = 1993.
Before: 1100*1982*.5/1000 = 1090.1 (Assuming a coefficient of .5 and an armor of 1000 to simplify the math)
After: 1100*1993*.5/1000= 1096.15
(1096.15 – 1090.1)/ 1096.15 = .00552 or a single attack damage increase (not DPS) of approx. 0.55%.
The same rings now. The exotic ring adds a total of 92 power, the ascended equivalent adds 103 power, or +11 each, identical to the amulet, which means the math is the same at 0.55% increase in damage. Or, adding the three together we get:
Before: 1100*1982*.5/1000 = 1090.1
After: 1100*2015*.5/1000 = 1108.25
(1108.25 – 1090.1) / 1108.25 = 0.164, or a 1.64% increase in damage for the amulet and both rings, berserker to berserker equivalent upgrade.
EDIT: Adding backpieces… again berserker to berserker adds 13 power (43 to 56). That makes after = 1100 * 2028 * .5 / 1000 = 1115.4.
(1115.4 – 1090.1) / 1115.4 = 0.0227, or a damage increase of 2.27% for the equivalent upgrades of 2 rings, amulet and back pack, berserker to berserker equivalent. The math I saw on that link did something wrong, coming up with twice that amount.

VOLKON.1290:

No, actually you’re grotesquely wrong in your math. But it’s been gone over in so many active threads already… sigh…

Not really. The math Silver did is sound and correct. You on the other hand took out a huge wall of text that compares berserker ascended/exotic gear by completely ignoring crit chance and crit damage.

stof.9341:

VOLKON.1290:

No, actually you’re grotesquely wrong in your math. But it’s been gone over in so many active threads already… sigh…

Not really. The math Silver did is sound and correct. You on the other hand took out a huge wall of text that compares berserker ascended/exotic gear by completely ignoring crit chance and crit damage.

No I didn’t. It’s a different post, but the crit chance calculates to be well under a 1% increase.

strictly berserker speaking, you can feel the difference using AScended trinkets

but for healing trinkets, condition trinkets, or anything outside crit damage, its hardly noticeable,

i have (rabid ascended set, except for the new earrings,) an added 50 condition damage did add 1-2 bleed damage per tick,

so for me ascended is not that beneficial,

therefore, if you want to feel the damage increase go for berserker stats or cavalier stats,

VOLKON.1290:

No I didn’t. It’s a different post, but the crit chance calculates to be well under a 1% increase.

Did your read Silver post? All he said is correct. If you want to rebuke his math, find mistakes in it instead of quoting something that doesn’t even apply because it hand waves 2/3 of the factors that count (crit chance and crit damage).

Surely the formula should be:

(power * chance of no crit) + (power * chance of crit * crit multiplier)

(1986 * 0.61) + (1986 * 0.39 * 2.19)
divided by
(1918 * 0.63) + (1918 * 0.37 * 2.09)

Which comes to 2907.7 / 2691.5 which is 1.08. i.e. that means approx an 8% increase in power.

Silver,

Help me understand your DPS formulas. Why are you taking a 3X% crit chance and making it 13X%?

Also, to calculate your base damage, you need several things you don’t have in your formulas:

1. Target’s Armor
2. Weapon Dmg (average of low and high is fine, so about 950 for an exo dagger)
3. Weapon Coef

Base Damage = Weapon Dmg * Weapon Coef * Power/Target Armor
Wiki

Once you have your base damage, you can multiply that by your crit damage (As a percentage, not as 219) to get your damage WHEN you crit which will occur 37% of the time or 39% of the time (average) based on your two gear choices.

To see how that averages out over time, you can use this formula:
Expected damage = Base damage * ((0.50 + (Critical Damage / 100)) * (Critical Chance / 100) + 1)
Wiki

Not saying your math is wrong, I just don’t understand what your total dps formula is calculating as it generates the following result:

64,455,826/54,918,094

The easiest way to figure it out is to do two different gear builds in GW2 BuildCraft It’s not perfect, but it does account for a lot of things when calculating effective power and health.

I did a quick comparison of Berserker’s exotic trinkets with rubies to Ascended Berserker’s and Berserker’s/Valkyrie with basic offensive power infusions and got 1674.76 effective power versus 1796.58, and I know could make a bigger gap if I put more thought into it.

In my opinion though, a skillful player that understands their class will always knock the snot out of a less skillful player with one tier higher gear. There may be a significant difference between exotic and ascended when you crunch the numbers, but it is difficult to calculate how much effective power or armor that knowing how to play your build adds.

They indeed give some noticiable benefits.
But what is the problem about this? You do dailies/guild missions/fractals and get your set.
Exotic is so easy to get it isn’t even funny. If you dont like the stat difference then play all those MMOs that give you full stats the moment you ding the cap.
Yes they broke the manifesto yadda yadda, the majority seems to want it this way so we either deal with it or quit – it’s not going to change.

my only gripe about the so called INCREASE, why is it only noticeable in crit Damage?

how about us who build ourselves with condition damage?

HannaDeFreitas.4236:

They indeed give some noticiable benefits.
But what is the problem about this? You do dailies/guild missions/fractals and get your set.
Exotic is so easy to get it isn’t even funny. If you dont like the stat difference then play all those MMOs that give you full stats the moment you ding the cap.
Yes they broke the manifesto yadda yadda, the majority seems to want it this way so we either deal with it or quit – it’s not going to change.

I’m still not happy with the 22% you have in that chart showing the increase in crit damage percent (pet peeve I guess). Because you’re already comparing percentages it should, as I mentioned before, show the actual 8% increase. Otherwise you’re saying “you get 22 percent more percent”, which is… weird. I understand why you did it and have it like that, I just can’t get my brain to accept it.

captaincrunch.6731:

60/30/30 more stats doesn’t equal 10% increased dps. I don’t know how you came up with that.

“DPS” is invalid as a whole. It should be damage as there’s no accounting for time as a factor.

Peetee.9406:

The insignificance of stats comes from skillful play, you’re ability to dodge an attack or your opponents ability to dodge an attack more than makes up for any statistical difference.

- It doesn’t have to be perfect world. We can just make the assumption that player skill has normal distribution. No matter what your player skill is, you’re still 10% more effective by having full ascended equipment. I think the idea you’re having here is that increasing your skill as a player will have more impact on your performance than having / not having ascended equipment. I agree with this idea.

Zenith.6403:

Peetee.9406:

The insignificance of stats comes from skillful play, you’re ability to dodge an attack or your opponents ability to dodge an attack more than makes up for any statistical difference.

- It doesn’t have to be perfect world. We can just make the assumption that player skill has normal distribution. No matter what your player skill is, you’re still 10% more effective by having full ascended equipment. I think the idea you’re having here is that increasing your skill as a player will have more impact on your performance than having / not having ascended equipment. I agree with this idea.

10% more effective… what the cat does that even mean? Effective at what? Where did that 10% come from? So far with full ascended jewelry the best damage increase I’ve been able to tweak out is about 7.6%, but that’s purely Damage (taking into account precision as a secondary stat).

Pandemoniac.4739:

The easiest way to figure it out is to do two different gear builds in GW2 BuildCraft It’s not perfect, but it does account for a lot of things when calculating effective power and health.

I did a quick comparison of Berserker’s exotic trinkets with rubies to Ascended Berserker’s and Berserker’s/Valkyrie with basic offensive power infusions and got 1674.76 effective power versus 1796.58, and I know could make a bigger gap if I put more thought into it.

In my opinion though, a skillful player that understands their class will always knock the snot out of a less skillful player with one tier higher gear. There may be a significant difference between exotic and ascended when you crunch the numbers, but it is difficult to calculate how much effective power or armor that knowing how to play your build adds.

Yes. You would need to really crunch some numbers to optimize your infusion slots to just push you over the threshold to the next crit chance % and then take the rest in power, which is not possible with exotics, so you’ll practically always have that additional % crit chance.
The 20-30% numbers floating around were always calculated for a complete set of weapons and armor, assuming the same progression we have seen so far. The stuff we have now (amulet, backpack, rings and earrings) should net you an effective ~8-9% if you optimized your choices a bit.
Furthermore, you have to take into account that in practice, the good damage classes also have additional crit chance boni build built in, warriors for example have +9% and on demand fury, making their effective crit chance +29%, which in turn makes the increase in crit damage even more valuable – any flat percentage increase on crit damage gets better the closer your crit chance gets to 100%.
All in all, you could probably get a net +10% damage right now, which definitely is noticeable, and it will get progressively worse, at an increased pace even as more ascended pieces are introduced, because of the non linear growth when you increase several parameters at once.

VOLKON.1290:

10% more effective… what the cat does that even mean? Effective at what? Where did that 10% come from? So far with full ascended jewelry the best damage increase I’ve been able to tweak out is about 7.6%, but that’s purely Damage (taking into account precision as a secondary stat).

- Effectiveness here means you kill enemies faster. Faster dungeon runs and less likely to fail. Better 1v1 capability in WvW maps. You may not see the difference anymore once you’ve accustomed to it, but it’s there. For comparison’s sake, create an alt character, use it in WvW and see how slow your killing speed is when trying to kill those neutral critters.

VOLKON.1290:

Zenith.6403:

Peetee.9406:

The insignificance of stats comes from skillful play, you’re ability to dodge an attack or your opponents ability to dodge an attack more than makes up for any statistical difference.

- It doesn’t have to be perfect world. We can just make the assumption that player skill has normal distribution. No matter what your player skill is, you’re still 10% more effective by having full ascended equipment. I think the idea you’re having here is that increasing your skill as a player will have more impact on your performance than having / not having ascended equipment. I agree with this idea.

10% more effective… what the cat does that even mean? Effective at what? Where did that 10% come from? So far with full ascended jewelry the best damage increase I’ve been able to tweak out is about 7.6%, but that’s purely Damage (taking into account precision as a secondary stat).

So you’re already up 7.6% from jewelry? So what happens when weapons and armor are put in? ……

Ascended items have 15-20% higher stats when infusion items are included. This is. I longer a debate.

Tawn.9871:

Surely the formula should be:

(power * chance of no crit) + (power * chance of crit * crit multiplier)

(1986 * 0.61) + (1986 * 0.39 * 2.19)
divided by
(1918 * 0.63) + (1918 * 0.37 * 2.09)

Which comes to 2907.7 / 2691.5 which is 1.08. i.e. that means approx an 8% increase in power.

Yes, this is the correct formula. Result: A 7.6% increase for my ascended berserker gear. (4 pieces)

Pixels.6532:

Also, to calculate your base damage, you need several things you don’t have in your formulas:

1. Target’s Armor
2. Weapon Dmg (average of low and high is fine, so about 950 for an exo dagger)
3. Weapon Coef

64,455,826/54,918,094

Incorrect. Those are constant multipliers to both sides of the comparison and can thus be ignored.

Dmg Ratio = k * Effective Power1 / k * Effective Power2 where k = Wpn Dmg * Wpn Coef / Armor

can be simplified to:

Dmg Ratio = Effective Power1/ Effective Power2

Wreckdum.8367:

So you’re already up 7.6% from jewelry? So what happens when weapons and armor are put in? ……

Up 7.6% without even the earrings. I don’t have the numbers to do the math when weapons/armor are added, but given a slight weapon damage and armor increase of 2-3%, I might estimate that an Ascended berserker hitting an Exotic berserker for 30% more damage per swing might be expected.

Oldgrimm.8521:

my only gripe about the so called INCREASE, why is it only noticeable in crit Damage?

how about us who build ourselves with condition damage?

That’s right, the difference is most extreme with Crit Damage and Magic Find, which for whatever reason saw a huge leap in their tiny numbers.

Also, notice that Power, Crit Chance, and Crit Damage synergize, so small increases to all of those stats make larger increases than you might expect in DPS.

In before “Oh but 7.6% is less then 1/10th of 100% so its insignificant!”

Peetee.9406:

I’m stupid when it comes to math so I’ll just assume your math is right.

The insignificance of stats comes from skillful play, you’re ability to dodge an attack or your opponents ability to dodge an attack more than makes up for any statistical difference.

In a perfect world the player with ascended would be 10% stronger than the player in exotics but we don’t live in a perfect world and everyone makes mistakes. I wear full exotics + 1 ascended piece and I’ve been killed 1v1 by upleveled players before, conversely I’ve also won 2v1s before as well.

That’s a great argument if we were talking about a good player vs a bad player and assuming the players are inconsistent. But what about a good player vs a good player? You can’t assume that everyone is an inconsistent player that frequently makes simple mistakes.

@Fortuna

Nothing about my statement was incorrect. I don’t think you understood what I was saying. I wanted clarification on the formula as it made no sense to me and the outputs it generated by turning .37 and .39 into 137 and 139 looked strange.

Additionally, the formula for dmg ratio doesn’t contradict the formula for base dmg. They are calculating two different things.

edit: not sure what happened to the quoted part…