Guild Wars 2

I seriously think Arenanet is going to take some shortcuts with regard to its hyped dungeon revamp. Stuff like adding constraints or requirements to dungeons to make you kill mobs, or increased RNG chance for every trash mob you kill, or just throw 100 adds at us in an encounter. Or only revamp like two dungeons and say “The rest are coming in 2013”, or…yikes “The rest are coming in 2014, look for our new blog!”

I have such hopes that the encounters will become unique and interesting…not just the chaotic mess of dodge rolling out of bad floor, and burning down the boss asap.

But why do I fear that these changes will be so incredibly subtle, lame, lazy, and quasi-impactful that not much will change?

Zedd.8239:

cesmode.4257:

TBH, Ive sort of lost what the term ‘meta’ even means anymore. No offense to your post haha, but it is used in such a wide array of thought, I dont even know where to begin. Is it the “best things to do”, “theory crafting..”Im so lost lol.

Let’s confuse things a little more.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/meta?show=1&t=1374688627

Gah! I curse you with the sword of 1000 burning suns! But that makes me think…does meta really mean “The behind the scenes game”? If so, wtf does that mean? Haha.

cesmode.4257:

I seriously think Arenanet is going to take some shortcuts with regard to its hyped dungeon revamp. Stuff like adding constraints or requirements to dungeons to make you kill mobs, or increased RNG chance for every trash mob you kill, or just throw 100 adds at us in an encounter. Or only revamp like two dungeons and say “The rest are coming in 2013”, or…yikes “The rest are coming in 2014, look for our new blog!”

So, they are making Zerk gear even more desirable in dungeons cause the more stuff you have to kill, the more DPS you need to do it in reasonable time? :p

stof.9341:

cesmode.4257:

I seriously think Arenanet is going to take some shortcuts with regard to its hyped dungeon revamp. Stuff like adding constraints or requirements to dungeons to make you kill mobs, or increased RNG chance for every trash mob you kill, or just throw 100 adds at us in an encounter. Or only revamp like two dungeons and say “The rest are coming in 2013”, or…yikes “The rest are coming in 2014, look for our new blog!”

So, they are making Zerk gear even more desirable in dungeons cause the more stuff you have to kill, the more DPS you need to do it in reasonable time? :p

Gah! I smite you, too, with the sword of 1000 burning suns!

colesy.8490:

Dodge. Aegis. Reflects.

So that’s that’s what I’ve been doing wrong all this time. I haven’t been dodging, using aegis, or reflecting anything. What will you tell me next? That there are skills besides the auto-attack? So what are those little icons above my skill bar to the left of the big red globe that has numbers in it? Can I use those or are those just for decoration like everything to the right of the red globe?

Or they can dodge, you can give them aegis, you or they can use reflects and they all have access to their own burst heal if they drop low enough.

I’m aware of all of that, thank you very much. That doesn’t mean everyone in the group can perfectly execute all of those things 100% of the time.

There are numerous reasons why people may not be able to dodge or why their “burst heal” may not be available or why I may not be able to give them aegis. Many bosses shoot right through Wall of Reflection and other shields that guardians can put up. Aegis blocks a single attack, and then it’s out of commission until it recharges. A lot can happen in those 90 seconds while Virtue of Courage recharges.

In ideal circumstances, the rest of the group can use everything possible at their disposal to ensure their survival. Unfortunately, due to the nature of combat in this game and the fact that people have varying levels of skill, Internet connection speeds, and computer hardware, those ideal circumstances aren’t occurring throughout most fights.

Healing power is bad.

Did I ever say it was brilliant? It isn’t like I’m running around in full cleric’s gear and calling that support. If you must know, I use knight’s armor with soldier’s runes and a mix of trinkets. Healing power does indeed scale rather poorly. It’s been a major gripe of mine since the game launched. But it doesn’t seem like ArenaNet has any (public) plans to make changes to the way it works. I’ve taken that into account with my gear, my build, and my statements here.

No, you’re not “highly effective”.

Oh, well that settles that. Clearly I contribute nothing to the group at all. I just hang out in the background dancing while the real group does all the work for me. On the plus side, I’m a really good dancer now.

If your definition of effectiveness is limited to simply how much damage I do in comparison to your epic zerker build, then yes, I’m not effective at all. I’m not measuring my effectiveness just by the value of the white/red numbers appearing above enemy heads.

And why would you not try to kill something as fast as possible? Whether you’re in berserker or cleric, why would you not be trying to kill something as quickly as you can?

Clearly we have two very different lines of thought on what it means to be “effective” and what we consider to be fun. I dislike speed killing because I find it to be a mechanical, boring, and repetitive process. That doesn’t mean my groups don’t try to kill things efficiently and relatively quickly. We just don’t care about killing things at the maximum possible speed that the game allows.

Zedd.8239:

Mad Rasputin.7809:

Bottom line is, while you can be successful using any gear, beserker gear is ultimately the best.

Yes, berseker gear is ultimately the best…just for doing damage. It’s terrible for overall group survivability. I’m not saying it’s bad to have people in berserker gear. It’s great for group damage. But having everyone in that generally doesn’t work out too well.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

The problem ultimately stems from the fact that they tried to do away with the trinity without actually replacing it with anything. This leads to the situation we are in now that DPS trumps everything else.

Boss has a healing mechanic-> More DPS to outpace it
Boss Builds up power during the fight-> More DPS to kill it first
Boss Does powerful attacks-> Quicker you kill it the less attacks it does

There is no situation where having more defense is more helpful than killing things faster. Every class has the same access to CC/Ulility/Healing so you can have all that and still wear zerker and be the best dps as well.

Most classes can buff themselves and debuff the enemies just as well if they are wearing zerker or nothing at all. There is no need to bring in a support spec in a support set of armor because most classes can already provide their own might/fury.

Yes, killing stuff faster reduces the amount of damage the group takes. But guess what? Having a support character in the group can also reduce the amount of damage the group takes while actually increasing the amount of damage they do and how much they heal. There are very few situations where that wouldn’t be an advantage.

I’ve said this over and over again but DPS isn’t the only thing that matters in this game. Maybe that’s all that matters in the elite groups that are so kitten they never ever die. But for the majority of players out there (even many really good ones), it’s a limited and ultimately flawed viewpoint. More damage does not necessarily mean a group is more effective.

That’s great for your support character. But that character should still be in zerker gear. There is no stat that increases how much damage other players do.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

That’s great for your support character. But that character should still be in zerker gear.

Nope. She really shouldn’t.

There is no stat that increases how much damage other players do.

I’m pretty sure I never said or implied that there’s a stat that does that. Again, you’re only measuring effectiveness by looking at damage and not at other factors that can impact things.

I’m aware of all of that, thank you very much. That doesn’t mean everyone in the group can perfectly execute all of those things 100% of the time.

Exactly, hence why you give them aegis so they have room to make mistakes, and put up wall of reflection to deal with deadly projectiles. Apart from that, boss attacks tend to be quite clearly choreographed and easily avoided.

There are numerous reasons why people may not be able to dodge or why their “burst heal” may not be available or why I may not be able to give them aegis. Many bosses shoot right through Wall of Reflection and other shields that guardians can put up.

If they’ve spammed literally everything, then they’re simply bad players and there’s no helping them. If an attack can’t be reflected, then you dodge. If they’re out of dodges and a lethal attack is incoming, you put up aegis. If they have dodges … they can dodge.

Aegis blocks a single attack, and then it’s out of commission until it recharges.

Bosses tend to do massive single attacks anyway, so that single block is enough. If they spam a load of attacks, it tends to be projectiles so that can just be reflected.

A lot can happen in those 90 seconds while Virtue of Courage recharges.

“Retreat”?

In ideal circumstances, the rest of the group can use everything possible at their disposal to ensure their survival. Unfortunately, due to the nature of combat in this game, those ideal circumstances aren’t occurring throughout most fights.

I’d say ideal circumstances happen more often than you think.

If your definition of effectiveness is limited to simply how much damage I do in comparison to your epic zerker build, then yes, I’m not effective at all. I’m not measuring my effectiveness just by the value of the white/red numbers appearing above enemy heads.

Then you’re measuring your effectiveness wrong, simple as. The big numbers you and your team members give is literally all that matters when it comes to efficiency.

Clearly we have two very different lines of thought on what it means to be “effective” and what we consider to be fun. I dislike speed killing because I find it to be a mechanical, boring, and repetitive process. That doesn’t mean my groups don’t try to kill things efficiently and relatively quickly. We just don’t care about killing things at the maximum possible speed that the game allows.

Oh look, it’s the “I’m having more fun than you” argument again. Pulling my weight, and sometimes knowing that I’m the one piece of the puzzle that’s keeping the whole team from falling apart is how I get fun in this game. Just because I use full berserker doesn’t mean I can’t have fun, non-zerker players crying about the “elitists” supposed inability to have fun is getting old.

Zedd.8239:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

That’s great for your support character. But that character should still be in zerker gear.

Nope. She really shouldn’t.

There is no stat that increases how much damage other players do.

I’m pretty sure I never said or implied that there’s a stat that does that. Again, you’re only measuring effectiveness by looking at damage and not at other factors that can impact things.

There are no other factors. Zerker gear = fastest kill = most efficient. Any other factor is due to a lack of skill in dodging and using utilities.

Yes some players aren’t good enough to dodge and use utilities. Those players are more than welcome to use other gear sets. But that doesn’t make it the most efficient, it just makes it slower.

If you show me any video of content in this game, I can show you a zerker gear team doing it faster and more efficiently, guaranteed.

colesy.8490:

Exactly, hence why you give them aegis so they have room to make mistakes, and put up wall of reflection to deal with deadly projectiles. Apart from that, boss attacks tend to be quite clearly choreographed and easily avoided.

You don’t need to explain to me how to play the game or how to use guardian mechanics. I understand those quite well.

If they’ve spammed literally everything, then they’re simply bad players and there’s no helping them. If an attack can’t be reflected, then you dodge. If they’re out of dodges and a lethal attack is incoming, you put up aegis. If they have dodges … they can dodge.

Yeah, thank you. I know how to use aegis and how to dodge. I’m not sure what this really adds to the discussion. I’m not attempting to debate basic guardian fight mechanics with you. I’m trying to discuss other ways to measure effectiveness in a group.

Bosses tend to do massive single attacks anyway, so that single block is enough. If they spam a load of attacks, it tends to be projectiles so that can just be reflected.

Many projectiles can be reflected, yes. And I reflect them. Many boss (and sometimes champs) projectiles, however, cannot. Other attacks simply cannot be blocked.

“Retreat”?

Yes, it adds an additional block that gets used up rather quickly or simply has no effect against numerous boss attacks.

I’d say ideal circumstances happen more often than you think.

Maybe they do. That doesn’t negate the fact that what I’m doing works and works well for the groups I play with.

Then you’re measuring your effectiveness wrong, simple as. The big numbers you and your team members give is literally all that matters when it comes to efficiency.

Or, I could just have a different opinion and experiences than you. Have you ever considered that?

Oh look, it’s the “I’m having more fun than you” argument again. Pulling my weight, and sometimes knowing that I’m the one piece of the puzzle that’s keeping the whole team from falling apart is how I get fun in this game. Just because I use full berserker doesn’t mean I can’t have fun, non-zerker players crying about the “elitists” supposed inability to have fun is getting old.

Um, I wasn’t saying “I’m having more fun than you.” I was saying “I have fun differently than you.” There’s a huge difference. Read what I said again. I didn’t mean it as a dig at your play style. I was simply stating that we have very different views and accepting that we get enjoyment out of different things in the game. There was absolutely no need to go into a rant about elitists and an inability to have fun. I acknowledged that you’re having fun in this game. It’s just different from what I personally find fun. You’re reading something in my post that simply is not intended to be there.

You don’t need to explain to me how to play the game or how to use guardian mechanics. I understand those quite well.

Then why mention players slipping up when you know you can help them out, how you can help them out and that you can do so without using weaker gear?

Yeah, thank you. I know how to use aegis and how to dodge. I’m not sure what this really adds to the discussion. I’m not attempting to debate basic guardian fight mechanics with you. I’m trying to discuss other ways to measure effectiveness in a group.

There is no other way.

Many projectiles can be reflected, yes. And I reflect them. Many boss (and sometimes champs) projectiles, however, cannot. Other attacks simply cannot be blocked.

Sigh.

Which is why you have two dodges.

Yes, it adds an additional block that gets used up rather quickly or simply has no effect against numerous boss attacks.

It’s not used so fast that it’s irrelevant though. Against evolved destroyer, it lets the team keep up strong DPS when it drops that lava thing on top of you (kitten i’m an idiot), if you used it in cof p1 then it can block the crystals dropping from the ceiling. Sure, if your team has bad DPS then it’s less relevant since the boss fight is going to be dragged out.

Maybe they do. That doesn’t negate the fact that what I’m doing works and works well for the groups I play with.

No, you think it works well. More damage works well for your group, not making yourself more “tanky”. If anything, that’s selfish.

Or, I could just have a different opinion and experiences than you. Have you ever considered that?

Or, you’re wrong.

Well, this has certainly been an “educational” discussion. I think I’m going to bow out of this now. We’re just going in circles and I seriously doubt we’ll ever change each others’ minds. Enjoy.

Don’t confuse viable with optimal. If you are skillful enough to avoid damage, then you can focus on killing faster. This isn’t the first game where this has occured. Once merely beating the content has been achieved, people seek to do it better and faster. And that way is more DPS. But that’s where people confuse it. Berserker gear doesn’t make you better. You have to get better to use it (and not die).

But the thing here is that instances are fixed and thus more predictable. Open World is still pretty predictable and trivial enough to not be valid to this discussion outside of those group events. With enough experience, you will know that boss’s attack works in a certain way and be able to plan accordingly. And indeed against opponents that aren’t completely brain dead and at least slightly predictable, such as other players, suddenly zerker isn’t all the jazz.

There are of course those that react fast enough to overcome these issues anyways and understand the game enough to deal with any issues, but I think those tend to be more exceptional than those that have just memorized one farming path essentially.

Viable in what way?

• Viable as in, you can finish the content? Anything is viable.

• Viable as in, equally performing? Berserker is the best in most situations, by far.

Zedd.8239:

Well, this has certainly been an “educational” discussion. I think I’m going to bow out of this now. We’re just going in circles and I seriously doubt we’ll ever change each others’ minds. Enjoy.

It’s a shame you’re now going to go in to a dungeon using full leech gear thinking you’re contributing a lot.

DelOnasi.6051:

For the record, the current meta disagrees with most of this post. If you’re interested only in grouping with extremely good players or running dungeons as fast as possible, feel free to go with the meta builds.

For most dungeon groups there are other viable builds than pure damage. My non-meta runs are often smoother than my meta runs. If you’re DnT or LOD, or otherwise in a really hardcore group, go ahead and put everyone in full zerker gear – it works smoothly if the whole team is really good. If you’re doing more casual runs and aiming for smooth runs rather than fast runs, there are other good party builds. This becomes more the case the less perfect the rest of your group is.

This doesn’t mean every build is good, or that every armor type is good for every build – far from it (although I’m sure you could complete every dungeon with good players in random builds).

There are three main aspects to dungeon encounters:
– dealing damage as a group
– not dying as a group
– encounter-specific mechanics

The third aspect (things like bringing pulls/immobilize on the first boss in the grawl fractal) seems to mostly come from utility selection rather than build. If everyone is good enough, the second aspect can become irrelevant, which is why people claim DPS gear is always the best.

I think that long-term you’ll want to focus your build on one or both of the first two aspects. This means choosing group damage or group survivability over individual damage or individual damage. Choosing something like P/V/T in most situations isn’t a great long-term choice because it focuses only on your survivability, which is another reason a lot of players bash defensive gear. However, group survivability through boons such as protection/aegis, or heals through dodges/symbols/mace can be useful to the whole group especially if your group isn’t perfect.

I’d say start out playing dungeons how you’re comfortable playing them, and over time a lot of players gravitate towards berserker gear (more players have always preferred the DPS role in MMOs, so this wouldn’t be surprising even if there were a more optimal group setup). If/when you feel that, go for it; having multiple gear sets and knowing when to switch between them can be really useful.

Quoted for truth. One of the best posts I’ve seen in a long time.

Condition caps ruin condition stacking
you can have one person going bunker if you want, but everyone else is better zerker.

This is what happens when you make the defensive stats inferior in scaling/effect relative to offensive stats and make attacks that do so much damage that you die regardless of your stats unless you dodge. You don’t need defensive stats to dodge.

1000 power = 100% increase in damage
1000 toughness = ~33% less damage taken, and only from non-condition sources
1000 heal power = ~10% increase in healing, varies widely based on skills

if you are looking for a “viable build”, then yes, pretty much every build is viable for PvE… because the PvE content has such a low difficulty level, you don’t even need to be playing anything near optimal to be able to work though the content. However if you are looking for optimal builds, then yes, it is just zerkzerkzerk all day every day so that you can get through the content faster… the only real difficulty in PvE here is generally “how fast can you go”?

Note: isn’t even referring to cookie cutter builds or anything, you can have plenty of different trait builds… just put on zerker stats and you will be more optimal. Example, my WvW Condition Mesmer build simply throws on 100% zerker gear for PvE, with no retraiting required… just the zerker stats.

I’m bit late to discussion but i feel like adding my few cents as well.
1st let me say that all this come from my personal experience and i understand that you guys might have different exp depending on what or where u do, how much coordinated are you as group etc.

When i get zerkers (1-4) in my group, they often go down pretty fast during a fight than i’m literally tanking boss or mobs on my own and/or reviving all with boss hitting my back. I wouldn’t call that most efficient/fastest way. They also die during mobs skipping much easier and often. Though it’s true this varies from dungeon to dungeon. Some dungs are indeed easier/faster with zerkers but not all. Oh and another funny thing, which i don’t understand, is that i steal agro even from zerkers making me to tank too many elites at once. Which makes it even harder for group if i go down bc zerkers often can’t stand dmg and go down short while after they get agro. This applies especially to low armor and/hp classes. All that together means that whole run gets much slower bc ppl keep on dying and i can’t dps enough on my own while everyone is being revived or is reviving.

As for condition dmg well i works, at least they don’t die so fast but usually one condition applier in group is enough especially if they use bleed stacking bc of limit of stacks. Though direct dmg indeed works better. Condition are good in pvp thou. Healing is not worthy unless you heal other players who are regeneration warriors (passive heal plus external heal are most of the time enough to keep them alive against any mobs or boss) which means you need to play with someone you know and not with PUG to heal at least little bit efficiently .

Yeah now you are gonna tell me they all suck etc like you did in previous post, but that’s what you get from PUG and not all play this game “24/7” to become pro or/and time to time i need to take through unexperienced guildies etc.

Conclusion = Unless you have stable every day active group of veterans it’s better to play with dps plus at least bit of durability to save their “bottoms” bc they will wipe out often, those random zerkers.

disclaimer: all points mentioned above come from my personal experience> Im not trying to say all zerkers are bad players or hinder for team. So don’t feel offended if you are white exception.

Pretty much every build is viable in pve. Zerk is used in speed running dungeons (one of the few things it is really optimal for).

The latter forms a small minority of the overall pve playerbase and content and an even smaller one in terms of the overall game. Yet many are crying about them. Go figure.