Guild Wars 2

power does damage. condis should affect status only. condis shouldn’t do any damage

is this a troll thread?

Aeolus.3615:

gw2 is ment for bad players Anet needs to give those gimmicks so they think its them that are good.

conditions should have stayed like we had on gw1…..

Because GW2 is the only game that uses drain over time/condition damage right… conditions are fine learn to deal with it.

Aeolus.3615:

gw2 is ment for bad players Anet needs to give those gimmicks so they think its them that are good.

conditions should have stayed like we had on gw1…..

You actually have DoT conditions in GW1.

From the Guild Wars wiki on Condition: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Condition

Bleeding — While suffering from this injury, you lose Health over time.
Burning — While suffering from this Condition, you lose Health over time
Poison — While suffering from this injury, you lose Health over time
Disease — While suffering from this ailment, you lose Health over time

How is losing health over time different from condition damage in this game?

There were actually MORE DoTs in GW1, because of Hexes – they did a variety of things, but DoT was a staple.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

From the Guild Wars wiki on Condition: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Condition

Bleeding — While suffering from this injury, you lose Health over time.
Burning — While suffering from this Condition, you lose Health over time
Poison — While suffering from this injury, you lose Health over time
Disease — While suffering from this ailment, you lose Health over time

How is losing health over time different from condition damage in this game?

The OP wants a system like WoW’s, in which all spell damage, DoT or direct, is fueled by the same attribute. While comparing such a fueling system to the one used in the original GW is a bit off, I can see where Aeolus is coming from. In GW, the same attribute could fuel both direct damage and damage over time. What’s less straightforward is that characters had multiple attributes, and in a lot of cases attributes might have both DD and DoT skills, so you’d see builds with both types of damage maximized by choice of attribute.

One of the 2 prevailing arguments against condition damage in Gw2 centers around how it is fueled. Detractors say only one stat — Condition Damage — is required whereas Power builds need three. What that argument ignores is that Power builds need three stats to maximize output, but so do condition builds. That leaves us with the question of how effective a non-maxed condition build is compared to a non-maxed power build.

Regardless, there is a flaw with the OP’s request. Let’s say that Condition Damage was removed as a stat, and Power made to fuel DoT’s as well as DD. After the massive complaints by anyone who’d invested time into condi gear, Soldier Gear would serve the same function as Dire does now. Knights would serve a similar function to Rabid. After not too long players would badger ANet into producing the most advantageous stat combos for their preferred play styles. So, the change would create a lot of animosity and in the end, we’d likely be back where we are now.

I like how conditions in guild wars 1 did health degen and not damage ticks. And health degen was capped. Too anyone who plays revenant, but never played guild wars 1, health degen is like energy for revenant. It shows pips.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Health_bar-poison.png

edit: For GW2 it could be implemented and only the players have the degen cap, and pve mobs/objects/etc would have no cap.

Zackie.8923:

power does damage. condis should affect status only. condis shouldn’t do any damage

So you arguing for all dmg to be instant + utility? sounds pretty kitten dull and straight out of gaming 1990s.

You said it yourself a few posts ago when you thought a mace/axe condi would be pretty cool…………….

Redfeather.6401:

I like how conditions in guild wars 1 did health degen and not damage ticks. And health degen was capped. Too anyone who plays revenant, but never played guild wars 1, health degen is like energy for revenant. It shows pips.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Health_bar-poison.png

edit: For GW2 it could be implemented and only the players have the degen cap, and pve mobs/objects/etc would have no cap.

The lack of anything but an absolute cap is mirrored by the lack of anything but an absolute cap on direct damage. Assuming a less-than-absolute cap on condi damage, why should direct damage not also have such a cap?

Yes because having a uniform damage stat won’t completely kill diversity or make classes like Ele, Engi or Thief completely out of line right ?

I think this is one of the worst threads ever created.

Zackie.8923:

power does damage. condis should affect status only. condis shouldn’t do any damage

It was already like that for 1st 2 1/2 – 3 years of the game because condis were so grosly underpowered that it was all zerker only.

It was a horrible time and I’m glad its gone. More actual choices and ways to complete encounters of all sorts are necessary, not less.

Redfeather.6401:

I like how conditions in guild wars 1 did health degen and not damage ticks. And health degen was capped. Too anyone who plays revenant, but never played guild wars 1, health degen is like energy for revenant. It shows pips.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Health_bar-poison.png

edit: For GW2 it could be implemented and only the players have the degen cap, and pve mobs/objects/etc would have no cap.

Active health degen was capped, but you could stack health degen indefinitely, which would negate health regen effects until they exceed the health degen. Spectral agony on an uninfused player would inflict 30 pips of degen, so even if you cast something like healing breeze on the player, they would still have 10 pips of degen.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Redfeather.6401:

I like how conditions in guild wars 1 did health degen and not damage ticks. And health degen was capped. Too anyone who plays revenant, but never played guild wars 1, health degen is like energy for revenant. It shows pips.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Health_bar-poison.png

edit: For GW2 it could be implemented and only the players have the degen cap, and pve mobs/objects/etc would have no cap.

The lack of anything but an absolute cap is mirrored by the lack of anything but an absolute cap on direct damage. Assuming a less-than-absolute cap on condi damage, why should direct damage not also have such a cap?

Technically, there is still a hard cap on Condi damage, but I’ve never seen stacks getting anywhere near the cap of 1500 stacks. Not even on world bosses.

Redfeather.6401:

I like how conditions in guild wars 1 did health degen and not damage ticks. And health degen was capped. Too anyone who plays revenant, but never played guild wars 1, health degen is like energy for revenant. It shows pips.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Health_bar-poison.png

edit: For GW2 it could be implemented and only the players have the degen cap, and pve mobs/objects/etc would have no cap.

I shall direct your attention to condition damage at the start of the game. When a world boss had a cap of 50 stacks, and all stacks enherited the strength of the last stack applied. What we had was effectively zero damage. Condi builds would stack up conditions at high damage only to have a power build drop their damage to nothing with a base damage condi stack. If that wasnt bad enough, multiple condi builds working together was impossible, youd constantly be screwing up the others efforts.

The way things are right now is how it should be. Condi builds can work together without fear of having all their effort be for nothing.

And to whoever was equating condi builds to bad players. There is a lot more effort and mental skillwork involved in condi builds. If we want the most out of our chosen build style, we have to constantky keep track of durations and cooldowns to ensure that we get our new stacks up before they expire to keep our damage going and our damage is only at its highest near the end of long fights rather than a constant rate.

^
I had forgotten about that, what condition damage was like at the start of the game. I remember how people complained that if there were too many condition damage players then the excess players were not having any effect on the mob.

Condition damage, 2013
Let’s assume that a reasonable proportion of all the people fighting the boss use condition damage. Perhaps this is how Arenanet have balanced this fight. What if every player there uses condition damage? Most of them will be doing almost zero damage to the boss. Their bleeds won’t actually work, their burning and poison will be useless.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

^
I had forgotten about that, what condition damage was like at the start of the game. I remember how people complained that if there were too many condition damage players then the excess players were not having any effect on the mob.

Condition damage, 2013
Let’s assume that a reasonable proportion of all the people fighting the boss use condition damage. Perhaps this is how Arenanet have balanced this fight. What if every player there uses condition damage? Most of them will be doing almost zero damage to the boss. Their bleeds won’t actually work, their burning and poison will be useless.

Yup… cause before if you wanted to build Condition for groups you were best off building Power and Condition Duration than ever touching Condition Damage… what was the point in using Condition Damage stat when your conditions were just going to tick off at the lowest damage anyways… atleast with duration you could insure that those conditions would keep going. It was pretty much identical to the GW1 health drain… but 1000 times weaker…

and by building power instead of condition damage you atleast contributed to the group’s damage rather than just acted as a battery for condition durations… and if you were crazy enough to actually want to play a Necromancer or Mesmer you were SoL… hell even Elementalists and Engineers got the boot most of the time since their classes were too heavily condition focused..

Vavume.8065:

Aeolus.3615:

gw2 is ment for bad players Anet needs to give those gimmicks so they think its them that are good.

conditions should have stayed like we had on gw1…..

Because GW2 is the only game that uses drain over time/condition damage right… conditions are fine learn to deal with it.

i can cleanse a condition per second if enemy keep atacking + cleanse with 3 shouts + trnasform extra condi to boon + got some stun breakers, 2 skills that aply stability, 2 seconds invunerability, should i continue?
No i dont have issues with conditions, acually i have issues with noob revs CoR spammers from mid since CoR animation gets invisible due ANet graphical clutter and game performance, u cant avoid what is not rendered.

Still…
conditions were designed this way cause ANet abolished Hexes from GW1, Yes conditions are fine, but the acess to conditions is way to easy, they are very easy to reaply, and add the power creep existent in this game due spam requried in pve, issues are not conditions alone but the sum of all floating damage and ticks in a very spamable game, wich is what makes condi builds a bit more effortless than most builds.
Played as a fire guard and i could do 7k-10k fire ticks when full combo hits… its stupid,… damage for burst is one thing but every one fights are burst races, some based on spam other on rotation gimmicks, it should be a team play game like gw1 was…

Adding this much to classes take out the sense of roles, builds etc, every that matters is more damage ouput and faster than the target.
Classes need to do less in defense and offense.

yann.1946:

Aeolus.3615:

gw2 is ment for bad players Anet needs to give those gimmicks so they think its them that are good.

conditions should have stayed like we had on gw1…..

You actually have DoT conditions in GW1.

-3 to -7 degen /second and per condi(degen stacks), they were used to pressure and condi spike pressure not how we have on gw2 where a full combo condi on tanky spec can take alot of health per tick

i do remmind when i used save yourselves to remove some condis from allies as faster as i can they still died and i didnt even passed from downstate was to fast due the ammount on conditions pulled XD, i wont even try use that shout again…..even after the recent changes…

IMO, the GW1 system (how professions, skills and damage were handled) was overall superior to the GW2 system, no doubt about it.

Whether it would be a wise idea to change an already existing system (GW2) so drastically, as the OP suggests, that is an entirely different story, and I agree with the majority here that it would be fatal.

condis in gw1 didn’t do near as much damage.

I think condi damage should be supplementary.

1st) All available damage is to support a quick combat system…
2nd) Conditions are meant vs high armor targets (armor ignoring)
3rd) Burst Power Damage is meant versus squishy targets (no dmg reduction)

Versus condition dmg:

• resistance,
• trooper runes,
• generosity and purity sigils sigils
• condition duration removal food (sweet bean buns anyone?)
• condition duration removal runes (melandru? hoelbrak, antitoxin…. it was a thing in WvW?)
• plague signet and condition transference (necro’s?)
• light fields and blast, whirl and projectiles?
  and
• => CONDITION CLEANSE SKILLS <=

Versus DPS:

• dmg reduction food
• dmg reduction traits
• dmg reduction runes
• Protection
• Weakness
• Retaliation
• Aegis
• Blinds

Of course there are also reflects, walls and ressurects…. and other mechanics to cheat the system.

And in all cases you have dodges:

Do not tell me we have a totally invincible strat in conditions in this game because people seemingly do not want to do anything against conditions. Saying conditions are invincible is saying you do not want to look into the options this game system provides other then qT Meta builds….

I’m in the understanding at this time the builds in WvW you have blinds, CC’s, Shieldgenerators, feedback mesmers, wall of reflection guards, shout cleanse eles, guards, warriors, druids, lightfields with finishers and stuff to defend versus condi builds. I also am quite famliar with cleric offensive druids , elementalist celestial and minstrel midline heal for melee squads and supportive heals like vampiric frontline offensive transfusers, virtue of resolve still has value in the spearhead of the melee…

Aegis spam, hammer protectors, earth ele’s for stability, blinds and protection… and blind necro’s…

I do not run condi builds cause in zerg vs zerg condi builds are not that great, however in havoc’s and terror groups, you will find an awfull lot of condi builds cause small groups will get instantly overwhelmed by conditions. Also I single out the builds mostly contributing to DOT with my focus group or delegate to have it done if I am lieutenant, supporting the commander… I also make sure focus groups have at least some necro’s and preferably some cleansers… I also prefer hitsquads to have a synergetic condi set. mostly because I expect my enemy to plan roughly the same.

I run a 2.7k power 60% crit 192% crit dmg hammer/GS warrior with 2960 armor and 1270 vitality, I use scrapper runes, mussels food and I like endure pain…

I used to use a elite skill on guardian a long time ago giving some invulnerability for the 1st push… I normally find the midline keeps me healthy and alive and conditionless pretty well, and when extended I find we can stay alive with guardians dropping light fields, me blasting ’m with hammer or whirling through with GS.

yes siege hurts, but unless in direct confrontation healers can take care of the better part of the damage… only poison is a problem and it’s only a nuisance… AC’s providing it at a spacious intervals with gaps and and trebbed cows being horridly inaccurate.

Conditions have a place. And a role, and can be countered… how many conditions can you clanse? Will you do it at 1 stack, 5 maybe? Or 10? Conditions are a mechanism on their own…

“Only one stat should do damage because math is hard”.

Zackie.8923:

power does damage. condis should affect status only. condis shouldn’t do any damage

No just no, in nearly every mmorpg I have played there are damage over time classes, like in everquest 1 necro, shaman, and many more, in eq2 you had warlocks, shadow knights and etc. In wow you had the warlocks.

Vavume.8065:

Aeolus.3615:

gw2 is ment for bad players Anet needs to give those gimmicks so they think its them that are good.

conditions should have stayed like we had on gw1…..

Because GW2 is the only game that uses drain over time/condition damage right… conditions are fine learn to deal with it.

Sarcasm? I hope so considering nearly every mmorpg ive ever played has had condition classes.

Zackie.8923:

power does damage. condis should affect status only. condis shouldn’t do any damage

Why not? I mean you state this as if it were some universal truth, but what would be the benefit of this solution.

And, though GW2 (currently) doesn’t do this, what about the universal DPS-vs-DPC complexity betwen DoTs and DDs which give rise to DoT-centric classes in RPGs to begin with?

How would these conditions build character be able to smash a Centaur Weapon Rack then, when doing renown hearts?

penelopehannibal.8947:

How would these conditions build character be able to smash a Centaur Weapon Rack then, when doing renown hearts?

well u can crliple and poison metal on WvW

Conditions are made to carry players (game is all about find tactics to leech from it than actually l2p)…so dont worry about beating centaurs weapon racks, Anet probably will make classes and conditions based stuff much stronger..

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

1st) All available damage is to support a quick combat system…
2nd) Conditions are meant vs high armor targets (armor ignoring)
3rd) Burst Power Damage is meant versus squishy targets (no dmg reduction)

Versus condition dmg:

• resistance,
• trooper runes,
• generosity and purity sigils sigils
• condition duration removal food (sweet bean buns anyone?)
• condition duration removal runes (melandru? hoelbrak, antitoxin…. it was a thing in WvW?)
• plague signet and condition transference (necro’s?)
• light fields and blast, whirl and projectiles?
  and
• => CONDITION CLEANSE SKILLS <=

Versus DPS:

• dmg reduction food
• dmg reduction traits
• dmg reduction runes
• Protection
• Weakness
• Retaliation
• Aegis
• Blinds

Of course there are also reflects, walls and ressurects…. and other mechanics to cheat the system.

And in all cases you have dodges:

Do not tell me we have a totally invincible strat in conditions in this game because people seemingly do not want to do anything against conditions. Saying conditions are invincible is saying you do not want to look into the options this game system provides other then qT Meta builds….

Pretty well summed up. While I agree some classes need buffs to catch up so we get even more diversity in builds – People just refuse to adapt and play the game. There are so many tools at your disposal but they would rather jump the gun and cry for nerfs.

I’ll just be over here building my guild comp and getting better at playing while everyone else is PvF.

Beep beep.

penelopehannibal.8947:

How would these conditions build character be able to smash a Centaur Weapon Rack then, when doing renown hearts?

They really need to update core Tyria so that conditions work on objects (which they do in HoT zones and LS3 zones).

Stand The Wall.6987:

condis in gw1 didn’t do near as much damage.

I think condi damage should be supplementary.

It originally was.

Before they introduced the Condition damage stat on gear.

Conditions were originally meant to be small damage bumps mostly helping toughness/tanks field enough damage to make a difference in encounters while retaining their durability. It’s why condi ticks can’t crit and ignore armor, and why so few cleanses were in the game in years’ past; generally why also a number of professions had much stronger/weaker cleansing than others, typically, aside from the thief, proportional to their max health pools.

Thing is, ANet never revised how conditions are applied or the weapons/skills/traits/fields that apply and remove them afterwards.

Conditions have been broken in their dynamic for a long time.

They’ve been historically weak in PvE due to the condi cap, and have always been overbearing in WvW. Never so much in PvP because of the lack of stat/build/duration support, and the high-yield of cleanses often found on existing anti-power bunkers (D/D ele, medi guard, Defense warrior) utilizing cleanses for control condition removal as-is.

Until they normalize them, there will never be balance and people will massively complain one way or the other.

PvE will always have a speed-clear optimization meta, so it doesn’t matter how good the DPS is; either the build is or isn’t optimal, and that’s that. It’s only exacerbated with DPS recorders.

DeceiverX.8361:

Stand The Wall.6987:

condis in gw1 didn’t do near as much damage.

I think condi damage should be supplementary.

It originally was.

Before they introduced the Condition damage stat on gear.

Condition damage has been on gear since launch… also got a screenshot of a sword dated July 20 2012 with +7 power and +5 condition damage so that should be from one of the betas.

Speaking even more historically, DoTs as a damage source are fine.

However, and this is important, they need to:

• Be different in their general design to DDs (direct damage). This is usually accomplished by lasting a very long time (12-30 seconds or so), and having rather low DPS. However, needing only a short cast to deal that low DPS for 30 seconds means the DPC (damage-per-cast) is very high. It’s efficient to first cast DoTs.
• As a result, their design is one of efficient damage, but DDs provide threatening pressure. Something DoTs cannot, but in return you’re free to do other things while they tick.
• Classes can then be designed to be more or less reliant on DoTs vs DDs at a design level. Some classes might nearly entirely be based on DoTs for example, which means that this class probably has something else they do with most of their time, but so that they’re not useless damage wise they can cast stackable DoTs on something. Very low pressure but good damage for the time used, and free to do their main thing. Others like a Warrior might be entirely based on DDs to go with the theme.
• Cleanses can then be mostly removed. They need to exist for someone specifically designed to be “tanky”, which could again be a class design thing (not be a tank, be tanky, important differentiation).

Do the people here who say “conditions are sooooo bad” really believe that all other MMORPGs which were entirely fine with their DoT vs DD setups (and who miraculously shared the same underlying design for it…) just got… lucky?

I started with EQ1, then DAoC, then WoW and now GW2. The former 3 all did their DoTs well, as described above. Supplementary damage but with superior DPC. Quite superior in most cases.

They also all had main-DoT classes. This simply meant you had 4-6 DoTs available + some filler spell which scaled off of the number of DoTs on the target or enhanced your ticking DoT effects while casting. Works fine, and is rather beautiful in design because it means that you can optionally trade in the DoT’s main advantage (no need to stick around while it ticks) to remedy its main downside (low DPS).

No no really condis are a good idea and they should not be removed. But, thy do need some toning down in pve and quite abit toning down in wvw so they are practically on par with power. And no in wvw on par doesnt mean condis need to deal as much dmg as a thief every sec.