Guild Wars 2

Never saw such topic, so don’t bite if it’s here already.
The game wouldnt be “p2w” for most people. You’d have to do everything by yourself-no shortcuts for those who “don’t have enough time to farm money for legendary”.
What do You guys think?

they would have to disable both.

Exactly what are you winning by buying gems and converting to gold?

Then anet would lose money from those who want to buy gold.
What would I do with leftover gems?
How would the gold → gem ratio be defined? (presumably set value)

Personally, I wouldn’t mind too much though.

I am thinking: No. Not that i buy gold with gems, but some people do which means I sometimes can buy gems with gold.

The price of gold—>gems is based on the amount of gems traded from gems—>gold. There is nothing in the gem store that can be considered “pay to win”.

“Shortcuts?” Are you aware that some of us who play this game have jobs? Not everybody has unlimited time to dump into the game. Cash shops have always been a good means of evening out the playing field for people who don’t have much time but do have money to spare, a.k.a. “working adults.”

Ayrilana.1396:

Exactly what are you winning by buying gems and converting to gold?

In this case, win the argument with all the people who endlessly argue that Guild Wars 2 is p2w because you can (various posts I’ve seen on the forum)
1) buy bank slots with gold
2) buy cosmetic items from the gem store with gold
3) buy anything at all in the trading post with gold

Really………..

I hope a mod just closes this.

By far the most ignorant thread i’ve seen. P2W, just stop using that term, its clear you have no idea what P2W even means.

It’s not pay to win, because PvE is entirely non-competitive in GW2, and there is no winning without competition.

However, that said.

I’ve thought this since day one, no idea why the playerbase puts up with this crap. It is the exact same story as the Diablo auction house, except Blizzard players were smart enough to boycott that crap and even the game until it was removed, because it is a flat out, indisputable, con of a monetary system to run a game on.

The conversion option makes it so that players are more likely to support Anet and GW2 the less rewarding the game is, just like the debunked D3 auction house.

If it goes like the D3 auction house did, GW2 becomes better for everyone who plays for rewards, customization, exploration, and progress. When the Diablo auction house went down, every single reward in the games drop rate was increased, some by as much as 40%, and they found other honest methods of making money off the game. So it turned out better for everyone, as will the removal of the conversion system should the players ever choose to take a stand against it.

Without gems to gold, the price for gold to gems would keep rising. It’s the selling of gems for gold that helps keep that rate in partial check. And since the exchange doesn’t create gold but actually sink gold like the TP, it’s not inflationary either.

Also, Pay to Win? It’s not like it would stop people from buying gold, just buying gold from a legitimate and safe source. Yes having a lot of gold could help you toward ascended armor creation and acquiring a legendary or precursor but that’s not “winning”.

kuben.9826:

Never saw such topic, so don’t bite if it’s here already.
The game wouldnt be “p2w” for most people. You’d have to do everything by yourself-no shortcuts for those who “don’t have enough time to farm money for legendary”.
What do You guys think?

• Person A – Has very little Real Life time constraints
  - Can farm for many hours a day
  - Has lots of gold to get a Legendary
• Person B – Has many Real Life time restrictions
  - Can’t play for more than an hour a day
  - Has barely any gold but lots of RT money to get a Legendary

Question: Which one wins the game?
Answer: Neither, because obtaining a Legendary has nothing to do with winning the game.

You can obtain EVERY single item via gold. its not having overpowerd eq like in f2ps, but you still have advantage if You earn a lot IRL. If You earn a lot IRL you’re a boss IRL. Same with games. why RL money should make You a boss in a game? Does game currency make You a boss IRL?
P.S. I work, study and still have time to play enough and dont spend RL money on game

Answer : No. Remember when they decided to leave out the Custom Exchange option?

Yeah, that was awful. Please don’t give them any more dumb ideas.

i still do not understand how owning a skin is considered a “win” …. win what ? beauty contest ? there is no such competition in the game….

Well, I have a job, and making some conversions I just saw that I earn about 90~100 golds per hour, how many hours you usually grind in game to get the same amount?

I prefer to buy gems if I need to and in my free time I actually play instead of grind.

azizul.8469:

i still do not understand how owning a skin is considered a “win” …. win what ? beauty contest ? there is no such competition in the game….

I had a long discussion with one guy who insisted that Guild Wars 2 was p2w because you could buy cosmetic items from the gem store. His argument, as I understood it, was that this game was based on cosmetics. Being able to buy the look you want from the gem store meant you won over people who also wanted that look but couldn’t afford to buy it. (I’m repeating his argument here, not trying to make sense of it). He’s not the only one I’ve seen come up with this argument though.

Astral Projections.7320:

azizul.8469:

i still do not understand how owning a skin is considered a “win” …. win what ? beauty contest ? there is no such competition in the game….

I had a long discussion with one guy who insisted that Guild Wars 2 was p2w because you could buy cosmetic items from the gem store. His argument, as I understood it, was that this game was based on cosmetics. Being able to buy the look you want from the gem store meant you won over people who also wanted that look but couldn’t afford to buy it. (I’m repeating his argument here, not trying to make sense of it). He’s not the only one I’ve seen come up with this argument though.

This was actually a pretty common argument in the old Black Lion Trading Post forum. It was always good for a laugh.

Conncept.7638:

It’s not pay to win, because PvE is entirely non-competitive in GW2, and there is no winning without competition.

However, that said.

I’ve thought this since day one, no idea why the playerbase puts up with this crap. It is the exact same story as the Diablo auction house, except Blizzard players were smart enough to boycott that crap and even the game until it was removed, because it is a flat out, indisputable, con of a monetary system to run a game on.

The conversion option makes it so that players are more likely to support Anet and GW2 the less rewarding the game is, just like the debunked D3 auction house.

If it goes like the D3 auction house did, GW2 becomes better for everyone who plays for rewards, customization, exploration, and progress. When the Diablo auction house went down, every single reward in the games drop rate was increased, some by as much as 40%, and they found other honest methods of making money off the game. So it turned out better for everyone, as will the removal of the conversion system should the players ever choose to take a stand against it.

There’s a HUGE OVERSIGHT you’re missing.

d3 auctionhouse sold items for REAL CASH back to your BATTLENET ACCOUNT. You could use this to pay for games, and other merchandise etc.

THAT’s the reason it shut down. Because people were hoarding the best items and selling them for absurd amounts of cash, and people were buying them, literally turning it into a pay to win.

d3 was gated by gear, just like most dungeon crawlers were, but even more so due to the removal of skill trees from d2.

gw2 has 0 pay to win features. 0.
Do some research before you spout nonsense.

kuben.9826:

Never saw such topic, so don’t bite if it’s here already.
The game wouldnt be “p2w” for most people. You’d have to do everything by yourself-no shortcuts for those who “don’t have enough time to farm money for legendary”.
What do You guys think?

Most ppl do not think this and think down on ppl who tend to think this way. The gems to gold conversion is bad super bad and there not enofe you can buy with gold alone that will put you above any one in the game who just simply farms for it. In a lot of ways its good to keep gems to gold to keep the price of gold to gems from becoming imposable high as in they use a system where more ppl buy gold with gems the cheaper though gems are to buy with gold.

I’d say this is Anet’s “Major income”
From those p2w (for cosmetic) warriors to put thousand of bucks for a pitiful data numbers (Skins = data number)

Don’t expect Anet to disable their largest income from irrational people. That’s the sole reason why online game is much more profitable than single player game.

Assuming that does happen, I can imagine a huge chunk of the playerbase will just leave or will resort to getting gold through less ideal methods. I welcome this in that if I want to buy gold, I can at least do it safely. Plus, the Pay 2 Win here is present in this game but unless you have a clear idea on what you want to do with that gold, it’s hardly noticeable at all outside of just investing the gold you need to buy yourself a legendary right away.

@Astral Projections I assume your friend’s logic towards this game is that if your character doesn’t look fabulous enough, your practically a loser? That’s more like “pay to look pretty” than an actual win unless he aims to have his character be in a Tyrian equivalent of Vogue magazine.

1) This would make Anet gain less money, which will decrease the amount of content they can give us for ’’free’’.
2) This will limit ppl that are willing to pay IRL money to gain the stuff that they want.
3) Using IRL money don’t change anything to the experience of anybody else so why do you want to go into someone else’s business? It only give them quality of life or customization option, it doesn’t decrease your enjoyement of the game like if they could buy a statistical advantage or something that allow them to beat you in the game.

Short answer. No

The biggest problem with this suggestion is that people will still want to buy gold, and without an official method they will turn to buying from illicit sources, and as a consequence more accounts will get compromised which increases the workload for ANet’s customer support team.

While gold is very useful in this game, there are items you can’t obtain solely with gold (e.g. dungeon weapon and armor skins, ascended weapons and armor) and the guy swinging the “credit-card legendary” doesn’t affect my play experience any more or less than the other guy swinging a legendary that they farmed themselves .

Malkavian.4516:

Assuming that does happen, I can imagine a huge chunk of the playerbase will just leave or will resort to getting gold through less ideal methods. I welcome this in that if I want to buy gold, I can at least do it safely. Plus, the Pay 2 Win here is present in this game but unless you have a clear idea on what you want to do with that gold, it’s hardly noticeable at all outside of just investing the gold you need to buy yourself a legendary right away.

@Astral Projections I assume your friend’s logic towards this game is that if your character doesn’t look fabulous enough, your practically a loser? That’s more like “pay to look pretty” than an actual win unless he aims to have his character be in a Tyrian equivalent of Vogue magazine.

the argument is basically this, the thing that you work hard for in gw2, is appearances, that is essentially your reward for doing lots of things
people who can get the reward without doing these things are basically paying to win. They pay money to achieve the things that others feel should only be earned through dedication/skill.

its actually a somewhat valid arguement, but by setting up this p2w as gold <—> gem exchange, it sort of reduces the effect. Yes they may be paying to win, HOWEVER, they are paying people what they think their time is worth.

So, it kind of sets up an equivalency where your personal game time has value. In a normal pay to win scenario, the people are invalidating your work, your time and effort becomes meaningless, by paying the company.

But in this scenario, even though they are paying, your game time is being valued. At a price determined based on how valuable players overall find their time.

basically everyone who plays is paying in some form or another for the items, at a price that represents how much people value each thing.

The biggest problem with this type of system, imo, is more how it may effect the game design. Not exactly in the way people think, anet doesnt really make more money if more people buy gold, unless people are selling gold.

the amount of money they make(outside of box sales) is most based on the total demand for gem items, the gold<—>gem conversion acts mostly as a means of converting one players demand for gems into cash from another players desire to not have to work in game.

Point is, gem-> gold can never go away unless gold—-> gem also goes away. And a great many people would not be satisfied with that, i think.

Malkavian.4516:

@Astral Projections I assume your friend’s logic towards this game is that if your character doesn’t look fabulous enough, your practically a loser? That’s more like “pay to look pretty” than an actual win unless he aims to have his character be in a Tyrian equivalent of Vogue magazine.

Well, I wouldn’t call someone who I don’t remember and who my main reaction to his argument was “you’ve got to be kidding”, a friend but yes, if you don’t buy the gem store items to complete a look you want then you lost. (At least that’s what I think he was arguing. By the end of the discussion my brain was fried and shorting out from dealing with multiple hits of illogical statements).

Did you really think this thread would accomplish anything? Cuz it won’t happen. And shouldn’t. And I don’t even buy gold with gems.

Op doesnt know what p2w means move along.

Nonsense. Legendaries are just a cosmetic stuff and they have nothing to do with p2w. Ascended weapons have the same stats. The ingame possibility to trade gems for gold and back is a good idea.

Yeah, they’d have to disable both conversions. Since I never use this feature, it wouldn’t bother me if it disappeared, but I think we all know it’s not going anywhere.

Gold Sellers will always offer gold for real world currency. To make that less profitable, ANet offers an official mechanism for players to legitimately use their wallet to get gold: the gem:gold converter.

If you want to see gold selling (and the related issues of account theft and botting) get worse, then sure, encourage ANet to do away with gem:gold conversion.

Regardless, the only “win” in this game is having fun, it’s hard to understand any argument that begins by complaining about “pay-to-win.”

Pay to win is when you can pay money for an advantage others can’t get in a reasonable time prime. Exotics are dirt cheap, an ascended weapon is a little work – nothing after that will give any tangible advantage over another player.

The GW2 community at large feels that P2W does not encompass cosmetic items as this game is all about in game accomplishments that can not just be bought with real money, such as completing a legendary weapon…oh wait, nm. If this bothers you that much OP you are playing the wrong game – Anet, the masters of marketing, have found a way to create a game that skirts the issue because clearly P2W only has a clearly defined meaning – if it doesn’t let me beat you in a dual, it is not P2W.

edgarallanpwn.8739:

Conncept.7638:

It’s not pay to win, because PvE is entirely non-competitive in GW2, and there is no winning without competition.

However, that said.

I’ve thought this since day one, no idea why the playerbase puts up with this crap. It is the exact same story as the Diablo auction house, except Blizzard players were smart enough to boycott that crap and even the game until it was removed, because it is a flat out, indisputable, con of a monetary system to run a game on.

The conversion option makes it so that players are more likely to support Anet and GW2 the less rewarding the game is, just like the debunked D3 auction house.

If it goes like the D3 auction house did, GW2 becomes better for everyone who plays for rewards, customization, exploration, and progress. When the Diablo auction house went down, every single reward in the games drop rate was increased, some by as much as 40%, and they found other honest methods of making money off the game. So it turned out better for everyone, as will the removal of the conversion system should the players ever choose to take a stand against it.

There’s a HUGE OVERSIGHT you’re missing.

d3 auctionhouse sold items for REAL CASH back to your BATTLENET ACCOUNT. You could use this to pay for games, and other merchandise etc.

THAT’s the reason it shut down. Because people were hoarding the best items and selling them for absurd amounts of cash, and people were buying them, literally turning it into a pay to win.

d3 was gated by gear, just like most dungeon crawlers were, but even more so due to the removal of skill trees from d2.

gw2 has 0 pay to win features. 0.
Do some research before you spout nonsense.

And people aren’t doing exactly that here? Precursors, mystic forge skins, T6 mats, BL weapon skins, all things only available for horrendous drop rates compared to similar items in any other game, and ALL of them horded by players to sell for exploitative prices.

It is exactly the same system, the only difference is, as I said, GW2s PvE is non-competitive, meaning you aren’t ‘winning’. But that does not change the fact that each players loss is Anets monetary gain. The less players get what they want, the more appealing converting gems to gold becomes to get it.

They need to sell an outfit in the gemstore that consists of a T-shirt with the words “I Win” on it.

Just to see people’s heads explode.

kuben.9826:

You can obtain EVERY single item via gold.

I’ve come here only to point out this a plain lie therefore your position as serious poster isn’t considered anymore.

Naevius.3185:

They need to sell an outfit in the gemstore that consists of a T-shirt with the words “I Win” on it.

Just to see people’s heads explode.

Best Aprils fools day joke ever GW2 going P2W with the new “I win” t-shirt.

Converting gems to gold isn’t P2W. Getting the best good stats is easy is this game.
The things that cost a lot of money are skins, which are purely cosmetic and don’t make you ‘win’ anything.

Basically you can’t afford to spend money on this game so you want to prevent other people from spending money on it as well.

kuben.9826:

You can obtain EVERY single item via gold. its not having overpowerd eq like in f2ps, but you still have advantage if You earn a lot IRL. If You earn a lot IRL you’re a boss IRL. Same with games. why RL money should make You a boss in a game? Does game currency make You a boss IRL?
P.S. I work, study and still have time to play enough and dont spend RL money on game

Except for the items you can’t get through gold such as ascended crafting mats, items bought with skill points, items bought with karma, items bought with fractal tokens, items bought with wvw badges, etc. etc. So really the people that have the time to farm this stuff for end game items without spending money are at the advantage here IF we were to assume there is a “winning” which there isn’t.

segman.3560:

kuben.9826:

You can obtain EVERY single item via gold.

I’ve come here only to point out this a plain lie therefore your position as serious poster isn’t considered anymore.

Im not pointing items like SoG from wintersday or items which does not affect Your gameplay directly.
36 (if i remember right) damasks for light set are quite a long farm which You can oneclick through payment

Buying a legendary isn’t pay to win. It’s pay to be stylish.

People really have no clue what Pay to win is if you assume a game like GW2 is pay to win.

I see the same faulty premise time and time again, that winning is confined to one objective only. Winning it completely dependent on the goal at hand. If the goal is building a better sandcastle, then tools that help achieve such, help in winning. If the goal is to knock out an opponent, then brass knuckles help in winning. If the goal finishing an achievement, then ofc anything that aided in such helped to win. It’s very simple logic.

Essence Snow.3194:

I see the same faulty premise time and time again, that winning is confined to one objective only. Winning it completely dependent on the goal at hand. If the goal is building a better sandcastle, then tools that help achieve such, help in winning. If the goal is to knock out an opponent, then brass knuckles help in winning. If the goal finishing an achievement, then ofc anything that aided in such helped to win. It’s very simple logic.

Then everything is pay to win by that very broad definition which is very far from what it originally refers to when it was coined.

I’m definitely going to win by fulfilling my dream of flooding my bank and inventory with stacks of soiled rags when I buy gold through gems in the gem store.

Essence Snow.3194:

I see the same faulty premise time and time again, that winning is confined to one objective only. Winning it completely dependent on the goal at hand. If the goal is building a better sandcastle, then tools that help achieve such, help in winning. If the goal is to knock out an opponent, then brass knuckles help in winning. If the goal finishing an achievement, then ofc anything that aided in such helped to win. It’s very simple logic.

Except that pay to win is typically associated with paying to get an ADVANTAGE, and cosmetic items don’t offer any advantage PHYSICALLY. they don’t offer more damage. They don’t autokill mobs etc.

Ayrilana.1396:

Essence Snow.3194:

I see the same faulty premise time and time again, that winning is confined to one objective only. Winning it completely dependent on the goal at hand. If the goal is building a better sandcastle, then tools that help achieve such, help in winning. If the goal is to knock out an opponent, then brass knuckles help in winning. If the goal finishing an achievement, then ofc anything that aided in such helped to win. It’s very simple logic.

Then everything is pay to win by that very broad definition which is very far from what it originally refers to when it was coined.

I’m definitely going to win by fulfilling my dream of flooding my bank and inventory with stacks of soiled rags when I buy gold through gems in the gem store.

it basically means any game where you can use real money, to achieve game objectives would be considered pay to win.
Which makes sense for what the phrase is supposed to be about anyhow. Many of the first games that were called p2win werent directly competitive anyway.

But really people should get over the terminology, and more focus on the reality. What is acceptable as far as paying money to achieve in game goals?
what are the pitfalls, etc

those are the real questions people should be considering, rather than the semantics of the term.

edgarallanpwn.8739:

Essence Snow.3194:

I see the same faulty premise time and time again, that winning is confined to one objective only. Winning it completely dependent on the goal at hand. If the goal is building a better sandcastle, then tools that help achieve such, help in winning. If the goal is to knock out an opponent, then brass knuckles help in winning. If the goal finishing an achievement, then ofc anything that aided in such helped to win. It’s very simple logic.

Except that pay to win is typically associated with paying to get an ADVANTAGE, and cosmetic items don’t offer any advantage PHYSICALLY. they don’t offer more damage. They don’t autokill mobs etc.

they give you an advantage at getting rewards.
someone may have to kill 1000 monsters to get enough drops to get a certain item
someone may pay Xdollars to buy enough drops to get that certain item.

The advantage of autokilling monsters is what? faster loot, and exp, gold can also buy you faster loot, and exp.

you can also pay gold to make other people kill monsters for you, ala dungeon selling.

Please, please, please learn what “pay to win” means.

Pay to win would be having the ascended tier only available via a gem shop purchase, upping its stats to be a much more significant % increase over exos, and requiring cash (no gold to gems conversions) to obtain it.

The piddly kitten the rest of you are talking about… not pay to win. Pay to look snazzy…sure.

phys.7689:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

Essence Snow.3194:

I see the same faulty premise time and time again, that winning is confined to one objective only. Winning it completely dependent on the goal at hand. If the goal is building a better sandcastle, then tools that help achieve such, help in winning. If the goal is to knock out an opponent, then brass knuckles help in winning. If the goal finishing an achievement, then ofc anything that aided in such helped to win. It’s very simple logic.

Except that pay to win is typically associated with paying to get an ADVANTAGE, and cosmetic items don’t offer any advantage PHYSICALLY. they don’t offer more damage. They don’t autokill mobs etc.

they give you an advantage at getting rewards.
someone may have to kill 1000 monsters to get enough drops to get a certain item
someone may pay Xdollars to buy enough drops to get that certain item.

The advantage of autokilling monsters is what? faster loot, and exp, gold can also buy you faster loot, and exp.

you can also pay gold to make other people kill monsters for you, ala dungeon selling.

You don’t pay gems for dungeon spots so not pay to win. Never seen dungeon selling, and don;t see a reason anyone would pay for that so using extremes doesn’t help either.

Pay to win also only applies to paying cash to gain said advantage, of which there is none.

No in game items that offer stats are also offered in the gem store. Items in the gem store are 100% separate, and don’t offer any advantages that make it easier to kill mobs, etc etc.

Any exp boosts and other junk purchasable is also findable in game.

Next.

Conncept.7638:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

Conncept.7638:

It’s not pay to win, because PvE is entirely non-competitive in GW2, and there is no winning without competition.

However, that said.

I’ve thought this since day one, no idea why the playerbase puts up with this crap. It is the exact same story as the Diablo auction house, except Blizzard players were smart enough to boycott that crap and even the game until it was removed, because it is a flat out, indisputable, con of a monetary system to run a game on.

The conversion option makes it so that players are more likely to support Anet and GW2 the less rewarding the game is, just like the debunked D3 auction house.

If it goes like the D3 auction house did, GW2 becomes better for everyone who plays for rewards, customization, exploration, and progress. When the Diablo auction house went down, every single reward in the games drop rate was increased, some by as much as 40%, and they found other honest methods of making money off the game. So it turned out better for everyone, as will the removal of the conversion system should the players ever choose to take a stand against it.

There’s a HUGE OVERSIGHT you’re missing.

d3 auctionhouse sold items for REAL CASH back to your BATTLENET ACCOUNT. You could use this to pay for games, and other merchandise etc.

THAT’s the reason it shut down. Because people were hoarding the best items and selling them for absurd amounts of cash, and people were buying them, literally turning it into a pay to win.

d3 was gated by gear, just like most dungeon crawlers were, but even more so due to the removal of skill trees from d2.

gw2 has 0 pay to win features. 0.
Do some research before you spout nonsense.

And people aren’t doing exactly that here? Precursors, mystic forge skins, T6 mats, BL weapon skins, all things only available for horrendous drop rates compared to similar items in any other game, and ALL of them horded by players to sell for exploitative prices.

It is exactly the same system, the only difference is, as I said, GW2s PvE is non-competitive, meaning you aren’t ‘winning’. But that does not change the fact that each players loss is Anets monetary gain. The less players get what they want, the more appealing converting gems to gold becomes to get it.

Did you even read his post? He said PLAYERS were getting RL MONEY back from the auction house. That doesn’t happen in GW2.