Guild Wars 2

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

The misuse of the term, “Pay 2 Win”, is rampant on these forums. Obtaining a convenience item or something that is a “shortcut” is NOT “WINNING”.

The term refers to being FORCED to pay RL money to PROGRESS in a game in some manner. Nothing purchase-wise in GW2 is even close to being FORCED (ok, I’ll concede that not purchasing some extra storage would make the game difficult, but there are long term players that still only have ONE bank tab). Beyond that, EVERYTHING is optional.

Outfitting all your characters in Ascended gear and Legendary Weapons is only “WINNING” in your own mind….

Lytalm.5673:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

While I am not one of those that blindly believe that the Gold/Gems / Visa-Versa exchange is fully driven by player supply/demand (I think those that do are gulible), I also don’t think Anet manipulates it to make money (but let’s not fool ourselves that they aren’t capable of doing so without anyone having any knowledge of it).

Some players seem to believe that Anet is here for the sole purpose of providing them endless free entertainment and somehow the concept of making a profit on said entertainment provision is an EVIL thing. Their continual self-delusion and battle against this EVIL concept is what 95% of these threads are really about.

If someone wants to pay RL bank to get a legendary more power to them.

Friggin lol though.

Aidenwolf.5964:

cerisebarradin.5639:

I think disabling gems > gold would enable real money traders further if I’m being honest.

If you take away the players ability to get easy money through ways that don’t violate the games terms of service it can cause some problematic issues.

If you’re sick of gold sellers sending you messages now you’d be in for it a lot more. I’ve played MMOs where there was no premium currency you could trade for in game currency and the RMT harass you constantly.

Not to mention, if Anet removed this some would succumb to the temptation of buying from gold sellers and it could result in their accounts getting compromised. (Be it stolen or banned.)

I’d much rather Arena Net have this option than it not to exist at all. Every person in my Guild converts gems > gold for quick money and there’s nothing wrong with it!

I’ve always hated that they allowed it and tradable precursors and legendary weapons. I consider in-game gold something you only acquire in game and I’ve never converted my gems to gold. The in-game “economy” is designed to foster gem sales and the game’s worse for it.

/Rant

That won’t prevent players from buying gold. It’ll just mean they will go outside channels to do it. Also without the game’s cash→gem→gold system the price of gold from those third parties will increase.

I can understand why precursors are tradeable simply due to their low drop rate, RNG and questionable usefulness for the character it drops on. A thief has no use for a staff precursor. As for legendary weapons, well the thief could craft that staff precursor into a staff legendary and sell that instead of just selling the precursor.

As others have pointed out, it’s two sides of the same coin. Eliminating the Gems→Gold will eliminate the Gold→Gems because the items being bought on one side, supplies the items being sold on the other.

Coopziana.1802:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

Grrrr, i really wanna tell you off for not being constructive… but, I agree lol

Yeah, I sometime like to be a kitten :p

To redeem myself, here’s something constructive on the subject : Gems to gold conversion is good to the game because it reduce the cost of gold to gems. Other effect, it’s a gold sink (with the 15% fee). So it’s healthy for the game and must stay.

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

It doesn’t make the game P2W and only add revenue to the devs. I see it more like a win-win-win for every one : People who want to pay RL cash for IG gold are pleased, devs and compagny get paid, people who don’t want to spend RL money have a way to get gems for store items by only playing the game (aka earning gold and trading it for gems).

So tell me again what issue is there?

fireflyry.7023:

If someone wants to pay RL bank to get a legendary more power to them.

Friggin lol though.

You say lol, but if you were to take the time actually spent getting the materials and crafting it, and used that time to earn cash at a job, you could have bought that legendary ten times over and flown to ny or something.

The cost for a legendary through cast is less than a weeks pay for me. its equivalent to about 4 days of work for me.

So would i be stupid to waste countless weeks and possibly months farming a legendary? Or should i just work for 4 days and buy it?

Its time s money, and its different for everyone.

Not everyone gets paid the same as me, and not everyone would drop that kind of money on a “virtual item” but you forget TIME is a value, and a currency in and of itself that can be measured against many things, including games and their values.

No offense but from my viewpoint, it could be said anyone who would waste months of time farming, instead of doing something productive with all that time, might make me lol as well.

My goals, my schedule, and my life is mine, however and cannot be applied to others. So i deal with mine in the way thats easiest for me.

Thats exactly why in game currencies also exist.

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

It doesn’t make the game P2W and only add revenue to the devs. I see it more like a win-win-win for every one : People who want to pay RL cash for IG gold are pleased, devs and compagny get paid, people who don’t want to spend RL money have a way to get gems for store items by only playing the game (aka earning gold and trading it for gems).

So tell me again what issue is there?

first of all, i see people dont really get the OP, hes actually on you anti p2w guys side. He made his suggestion as a means of shutting up the p2w debate once and for all. Or at least thats the side he presented.

The system definately has advantages, i know a couple friends who would not play for a signifigant amount of time if they had to pay a subscription.

However, i think its foolish to ignore the issue. Its something you have to monitor and adjust, its not going to be 100% ok or 100% bad. This system is like consuming alchohol, you have to monitor it, and control it, or else it can end up being a bad experience.

Its not a question of whether pay for in game things is 100% bad or 100% good, its about how to manage pay for in game so that it creates the best balance of gains versus losses.

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

It doesn’t make the game P2W and only add revenue to the devs. I see it more like a win-win-win for every one : People who want to pay RL cash for IG gold are pleased, devs and compagny get paid, people who don’t want to spend RL money have a way to get gems for store items by only playing the game (aka earning gold and trading it for gems).

So tell me again what issue is there?

first of all, i see people dont really get the OP, hes actually on you anti p2w guys side. He made his suggestion as a means of shutting up the p2w debate once and for all. Or at least thats the side he presented.

The system definately has advantages, i know a couple friends who would not play for a signifigant amount of time if they had to pay a subscription.

However, i think its foolish to ignore the issue. Its something you have to monitor and adjust, its not going to be 100% ok or 100% bad. This system is like consuming alchohol, you have to monitor it, and control it, or else it can end up being a bad experience.

Its not a question of whether pay for in game things is 100% bad or 100% good, its about how to manage pay for in game so that it creates the best balance of gains versus losses.

But really, why would we care about P2W complainer? They are wrong and shame on them if they don’t see it, even after all the talk there has been on the subject.

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

It doesn’t make the game P2W and only add revenue to the devs. I see it more like a win-win-win for every one : People who want to pay RL cash for IG gold are pleased, devs and compagny get paid, people who don’t want to spend RL money have a way to get gems for store items by only playing the game (aka earning gold and trading it for gems).

So tell me again what issue is there?

first of all, i see people dont really get the OP, hes actually on you anti p2w guys side. He made his suggestion as a means of shutting up the p2w debate once and for all. Or at least thats the side he presented.

The system definately has advantages, i know a couple friends who would not play for a signifigant amount of time if they had to pay a subscription.

However, i think its foolish to ignore the issue. Its something you have to monitor and adjust, its not going to be 100% ok or 100% bad. This system is like consuming alchohol, you have to monitor it, and control it, or else it can end up being a bad experience.

Its not a question of whether pay for in game things is 100% bad or 100% good, its about how to manage pay for in game so that it creates the best balance of gains versus losses.

But really, why would we care about P2W complainer? They are wrong and shame on them if they don’t see it, even after all the talk there has been on the subject.

because they arent wrong, they have a different opinion. There is no shame on them. There is no objective right answer on whether selling in game objectives/things is good.

If you want to develop a good system for most people, you have to realize you dont have a simple truth, you have a complex interaction

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

It doesn’t make the game P2W and only add revenue to the devs. I see it more like a win-win-win for every one : People who want to pay RL cash for IG gold are pleased, devs and compagny get paid, people who don’t want to spend RL money have a way to get gems for store items by only playing the game (aka earning gold and trading it for gems).

So tell me again what issue is there?

first of all, i see people dont really get the OP, hes actually on you anti p2w guys side. He made his suggestion as a means of shutting up the p2w debate once and for all. Or at least thats the side he presented.

The system definately has advantages, i know a couple friends who would not play for a signifigant amount of time if they had to pay a subscription.

However, i think its foolish to ignore the issue. Its something you have to monitor and adjust, its not going to be 100% ok or 100% bad. This system is like consuming alchohol, you have to monitor it, and control it, or else it can end up being a bad experience.

Its not a question of whether pay for in game things is 100% bad or 100% good, its about how to manage pay for in game so that it creates the best balance of gains versus losses.

But really, why would we care about P2W complainer? They are wrong and shame on them if they don’t see it, even after all the talk there has been on the subject.

because they arent wrong, they have a different opinion. There is no shame on them. There is no objective right answer on whether selling in game objectives/things is good.

If you want to develop a good system for most people, you have to realize you dont have a simple truth, you have a complex interaction

except that everyone is talking about p2w in a sense that is NOT p2w that is stereotypical, the majority, nor the natural stigma of the phrase in any way. People are trying to make and argument of p2w when its simply not. Its pay2lookfancier or pay2wear.

edgarallanpwn.8739:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

It doesn’t make the game P2W and only add revenue to the devs. I see it more like a win-win-win for every one : People who want to pay RL cash for IG gold are pleased, devs and compagny get paid, people who don’t want to spend RL money have a way to get gems for store items by only playing the game (aka earning gold and trading it for gems).

So tell me again what issue is there?

first of all, i see people dont really get the OP, hes actually on you anti p2w guys side. He made his suggestion as a means of shutting up the p2w debate once and for all. Or at least thats the side he presented.

The system definately has advantages, i know a couple friends who would not play for a signifigant amount of time if they had to pay a subscription.

However, i think its foolish to ignore the issue. Its something you have to monitor and adjust, its not going to be 100% ok or 100% bad. This system is like consuming alchohol, you have to monitor it, and control it, or else it can end up being a bad experience.

Its not a question of whether pay for in game things is 100% bad or 100% good, its about how to manage pay for in game so that it creates the best balance of gains versus losses.

But really, why would we care about P2W complainer? They are wrong and shame on them if they don’t see it, even after all the talk there has been on the subject.

because they arent wrong, they have a different opinion. There is no shame on them. There is no objective right answer on whether selling in game objectives/things is good.

If you want to develop a good system for most people, you have to realize you dont have a simple truth, you have a complex interaction

except that everyone is talking about p2w in a sense that is NOT p2w that is stereotypical, the majority, nor the natural stigma of the phrase in any way. People are trying to make and argument of p2w when its simply not. Its pay2lookfancier or pay2wear.

getting caught up on the definition of the word, doesnt really change the point people were making.

Its fine to point out a difference in the perception of a slang word, but its not really condusive to discussion to continue to argue over its meaning once you understand what the person was actually saying.

phys.7689:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

It doesn’t make the game P2W and only add revenue to the devs. I see it more like a win-win-win for every one : People who want to pay RL cash for IG gold are pleased, devs and compagny get paid, people who don’t want to spend RL money have a way to get gems for store items by only playing the game (aka earning gold and trading it for gems).

So tell me again what issue is there?

first of all, i see people dont really get the OP, hes actually on you anti p2w guys side. He made his suggestion as a means of shutting up the p2w debate once and for all. Or at least thats the side he presented.

The system definately has advantages, i know a couple friends who would not play for a signifigant amount of time if they had to pay a subscription.

However, i think its foolish to ignore the issue. Its something you have to monitor and adjust, its not going to be 100% ok or 100% bad. This system is like consuming alchohol, you have to monitor it, and control it, or else it can end up being a bad experience.

Its not a question of whether pay for in game things is 100% bad or 100% good, its about how to manage pay for in game so that it creates the best balance of gains versus losses.

But really, why would we care about P2W complainer? They are wrong and shame on them if they don’t see it, even after all the talk there has been on the subject.

because they arent wrong, they have a different opinion. There is no shame on them. There is no objective right answer on whether selling in game objectives/things is good.

If you want to develop a good system for most people, you have to realize you dont have a simple truth, you have a complex interaction

except that everyone is talking about p2w in a sense that is NOT p2w that is stereotypical, the majority, nor the natural stigma of the phrase in any way. People are trying to make and argument of p2w when its simply not. Its pay2lookfancier or pay2wear.

getting caught up on the definition of the word, doesnt really change the point people were making.

Its fine to point out a difference in the perception of a slang word, but its not really condusive to discussion to continue to argue over its meaning once you understand what the person was actually saying.

Using a term properly, and conveying the proper connotations, as well as debate will help your audience better try to see your viewpoint. If you just throw out big attention words like p2w while using them properly, often enough people will just dismiss it, like most are saying to ignore op.

edgarallanpwn.8739:

phys.7689:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

phys.7689:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

It doesn’t make the game P2W and only add revenue to the devs. I see it more like a win-win-win for every one : People who want to pay RL cash for IG gold are pleased, devs and compagny get paid, people who don’t want to spend RL money have a way to get gems for store items by only playing the game (aka earning gold and trading it for gems).

So tell me again what issue is there?

first of all, i see people dont really get the OP, hes actually on you anti p2w guys side. He made his suggestion as a means of shutting up the p2w debate once and for all. Or at least thats the side he presented.

The system definately has advantages, i know a couple friends who would not play for a signifigant amount of time if they had to pay a subscription.

However, i think its foolish to ignore the issue. Its something you have to monitor and adjust, its not going to be 100% ok or 100% bad. This system is like consuming alchohol, you have to monitor it, and control it, or else it can end up being a bad experience.

Its not a question of whether pay for in game things is 100% bad or 100% good, its about how to manage pay for in game so that it creates the best balance of gains versus losses.

But really, why would we care about P2W complainer? They are wrong and shame on them if they don’t see it, even after all the talk there has been on the subject.

because they arent wrong, they have a different opinion. There is no shame on them. There is no objective right answer on whether selling in game objectives/things is good.

If you want to develop a good system for most people, you have to realize you dont have a simple truth, you have a complex interaction

except that everyone is talking about p2w in a sense that is NOT p2w that is stereotypical, the majority, nor the natural stigma of the phrase in any way. People are trying to make and argument of p2w when its simply not. Its pay2lookfancier or pay2wear.

getting caught up on the definition of the word, doesnt really change the point people were making.

Its fine to point out a difference in the perception of a slang word, but its not really condusive to discussion to continue to argue over its meaning once you understand what the person was actually saying.

Using a term properly, and conveying the proper connotations, as well as debate will help your audience better try to see your viewpoint. If you just throw out big attention words like p2w while using them properly, often enough people will just dismiss it, like most are saying to ignore op.

the point of a debate is to win, the point of discussion is to come to understandings.
So yeah, in a debate they will toast you for improper usage, but in a discussion your goal should be to understand other people and come to new understandings or solutions, which means you are generally more forgiving of the word usage, and more focused on the intent.

Some players feel it’s unfair to be able to buy gold with real world currency. They ignore the fact that this type of business has existed since MMOs first came into being. Even subscription based ones. The fact that ANet, like several other MMO companies, offer an official way to do this helps fulfill the need and force 3rd party sites to sell at a lower price hopefully discouraging them.

In fact ANet offering this service in turns creates the counter service of buying of gems with gold. This way it can reward players who earn large quantity of gold to be about to use the “cash shop” without needing to spend actual cash.

You can’t remove one with out the other. The exchange is money supply neutral, it’s not adding to the pool of gold in the game. What it could do is to increase disparity between the wealthy and not so wealthy. But the disparity isn’t any different if wealth is a factor of just playing time and style.

If it was disabled then those who buys gems would sell gem store items to players through gifting for gold which cuts out ANet. There would be an increase in scam reports. Then the game would definitely become what you consider “p2w” by giving credit card holders sway over average players.

Here’s a link to what I consider a well written analysis on what P2W is:

http://game-wisdom.com/critical/defining-pay-to-win

TL:DR: author defines P2W as If there are any unique purchases that positively impacts the game experience and are only available with premium currency (aka real money), then the game is considered Pay to Win.

Most claims I’ve seen of P2W here fall down at the ‘only available with premium currency’ bit.

fireflyry.7023:

This mechanic pays for the game your playing.

Odd since I paid for the game. Try to remember this isn’t FTP.

GW1 had box sales and no cash to gold.

GW2 was to survive on gems and have no expansions now however we’re getting box sales plus gems.

Never tell me someone else’s money is paying for my playtime as I’ve paid my own way.

Bottom line, anet will NEVER disable this conversion because they make a large profit, this is common sense. This post is pointless.

Aidenwolf.5964:

fireflyry.7023:

This mechanic pays for the game your playing.

Odd since I paid for the game. Try to remember this isn’t FTP.

GW1 had box sales and no cash to gold.

GW2 was to survive on gems and have no expansions now however we’re getting box sales plus gems.

Never tell me someone else’s money is paying for my playtime as I’ve paid my own way.

Ha… I chuckled a little. Whether you like it or not box sales would not be enough to keep gw2 running with as many updates as we’ve had over the past 2.5 years. You’re absolutely right, you paid to play the game but you didn’t pay to keep the servers running 24/7 2 years and counting still.

Aidenwolf.5964:

fireflyry.7023:

This mechanic pays for the game your playing.

Odd since I paid for the game. Try to remember this isn’t FTP.

GW1 had box sales and no cash to gold.

GW2 was to survive on gems and have no expansions now however we’re getting box sales plus gems.

Never tell me someone else’s money is paying for my playtime as I’ve paid my own way.

You paid for the game’s development and maybe 6 months of post launch development, assuming you paid full price for the game and you started at launch.

Aidenwolf.5964:

fireflyry.7023:

This mechanic pays for the game your playing.

Odd since I paid for the game. Try to remember this isn’t FTP.

GW1 had box sales and no cash to gold.

GW2 was to survive on gems and have no expansions now however we’re getting box sales plus gems.

Never tell me someone else’s money is paying for my playtime as I’ve paid my own way.

Other peoples money are playing for your content updates and everything else new that comes your way.

But nice try.

Conncept.7638:

AegisRunestone.8672:

Conncept.7638:

edgarallanpwn.8739:

Conncept.7638:

It’s not pay to win, because PvE is entirely non-competitive in GW2, and there is no winning without competition.

However, that said.

I’ve thought this since day one, no idea why the playerbase puts up with this crap. It is the exact same story as the Diablo auction house, except Blizzard players were smart enough to boycott that crap and even the game until it was removed, because it is a flat out, indisputable, con of a monetary system to run a game on.

The conversion option makes it so that players are more likely to support Anet and GW2 the less rewarding the game is, just like the debunked D3 auction house.

If it goes like the D3 auction house did, GW2 becomes better for everyone who plays for rewards, customization, exploration, and progress. When the Diablo auction house went down, every single reward in the games drop rate was increased, some by as much as 40%, and they found other honest methods of making money off the game. So it turned out better for everyone, as will the removal of the conversion system should the players ever choose to take a stand against it.

There’s a HUGE OVERSIGHT you’re missing.

d3 auctionhouse sold items for REAL CASH back to your BATTLENET ACCOUNT. You could use this to pay for games, and other merchandise etc.

THAT’s the reason it shut down. Because people were hoarding the best items and selling them for absurd amounts of cash, and people were buying them, literally turning it into a pay to win.

d3 was gated by gear, just like most dungeon crawlers were, but even more so due to the removal of skill trees from d2.

gw2 has 0 pay to win features. 0.
Do some research before you spout nonsense.

And people aren’t doing exactly that here? Precursors, mystic forge skins, T6 mats, BL weapon skins, all things only available for horrendous drop rates compared to similar items in any other game, and ALL of them horded by players to sell for exploitative prices.

It is exactly the same system, the only difference is, as I said, GW2s PvE is non-competitive, meaning you aren’t ‘winning’. But that does not change the fact that each players loss is Anets monetary gain. The less players get what they want, the more appealing converting gems to gold becomes to get it.

Did you even read his post? He said PLAYERS were getting RL MONEY back from the auction house. That doesn’t happen in GW2.

Yes I did, and as I said, the system is doing here exactly what it did there, the fact that GW2 prohibits players from trading items for real world money and D3 allowed it is entirely beside the point. The problem was that the system was causing exploitative economic conduct by players and opening a venue for exploitative monetization to the developers.

All I see is that anything not legendary or skin related is very cheap on the TP, and even sold at prices that are appropriate for the level the stuff is used for, so even a new player can buy gear throughout their leveling experience without having to grind or feel like they need to use Gems to Gold conversion. This is far different then what was happening in D3. What happened in D3 is not what is happening in GW2, far from it.

Aidenwolf.5964:

fireflyry.7023:

This mechanic pays for the game your playing.

Odd since I paid for the game. Try to remember this isn’t FTP.

GW1 had box sales and no cash to gold.

GW2 was to survive on gems and have no expansions now however we’re getting box sales plus gems.

Never tell me someone else’s money is paying for my playtime as I’ve paid my own way.

The money you paid for the game isn’t going to pay your way forever. I paid 50 bucks when I preordered the game, the costs involved to sustain my account and all the content anet created for the past 2.5 years most likely exceeded that by now. Paying once does not sustain the game forever.

Aidenwolf.5964:

fireflyry.7023:

This mechanic pays for the game your playing.

Odd since I paid for the game. Try to remember this isn’t FTP.

GW1 had box sales and no cash to gold.

GW2 was to survive on gems and have no expansions now however we’re getting box sales plus gems.

Never tell me someone else’s money is paying for my playtime as I’ve paid my own way.

In Guild Wars 1, how often did they have content updates that didn’t require you to pay for them?

Disabling gem to gold would also effectively disable gold to gems.

The gem gains from AP are trivial.

eisberg.2379:

Aidenwolf.5964:

fireflyry.7023:

This mechanic pays for the game your playing.

Odd since I paid for the game. Try to remember this isn’t FTP.

GW1 had box sales and no cash to gold.

GW2 was to survive on gems and have no expansions now however we’re getting box sales plus gems.

Never tell me someone else’s money is paying for my playtime as I’ve paid my own way.

In Guild Wars 1, how often did they have content updates that didn’t require you to pay for them?

A couple towards the end that I can think of but that’s about it. Winds of Change and War in Kryta. The War in Kryta one allowed you to get weapons for the HoM. I think they were more to help people towards the HoM and to keep them engaged in the game while waiting for Guild Wars 2.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Winds_of_Change
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/War_in_Kryta

Possibly they were experimenting a bit with an early concept of the Living Story and trying it out in Guild Wars 1.

I love when people say that cosmetic items and bank tabs being bought with money via gems is P2W, Its pay to convenience. You aren’t buying bank slots and equipping them to go kill another players with ubber leet stat differences like in some other games.

Any who I like the gem to gold and gold to gem portion it allows those who don’t want to spend money to be able to get the cash shop items by just playing. If you don’t really have the time to be farming all the time like I do then I can just plunk down a few dollars for an outfit that has no stats which that money then supports more stuff for everyone yay.

I dunno what the point would be really. If I had my druthers, GW2 would have the same design flow as GW1. A boxed game every year and no cash shop.

The big allure for me is playing the game to earn everything. The cash shop neuters that to an extent. It’s still there to be sure, but not all the way. A lot of the things that would be a tangible reward for playing specific content ends up in the cash shop. That’s why I tend to like the armor sets and weapons we can only get by playing -i.e. Glorious Armor/Fractal Weapons-.

Schumi.4285:

A short definition of “pay2win-Games” from Urban Dictionary:
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

You can neither buy better gear nor can you craft them faster as anyone actually playing the game. Even if you buy the best gear (i.e. legendary weapons) then you’re still not stronger as someone with ascended gear. You may look more shiny but that’s about it. So there’s also no imbalance given.

Side note: You would even have to spend ridiculous amounts of money to get legendary weapons.

So, OP, there is absolutely no p2w given here.

p2ls (pay to look shiny) maybe but it’s not for the win

Not even the “boosters” in the shop will give you advantages to someone actually knowing how to handle his character by playing for a while.

BUT
the topic is interesting anyways since:

- ANet makes money with the shop
- ANet only makes money if people buy gems for real cash, not for gold.
- This said, giving tons of gold to players actually harms their own income.
- Because they don’t want to destroy their income, RNGesus does not listen to your prayers.
- Drops are not worth a lot.

so IF (and that’s a big, big IF) ANet removes the gold->gem conversion and people had to actually spend real cash to get gem store stuff, ingame drops could be way better and everyone could have one or two legendary weapons easily, because it does not matter if people are hoarding gold. Traders could not buy fancy costumes, not even with 1000s and millions of gold.
But as long as gold interferes with ANets monthly income, you will always find gold sinks and RNGesus mechanisms all over the game.

Just my 2 cents…

Define better? Is a more flashy or better look not better? Especially in a game based so much on cosmetics? You can also get them faster when spending cash.

It does not make it unbalance but that’s about it.

And winning.. in some games winning might be killing or completing a mission, in GW2 winning seems to be getting the best looking things. Again that is of course personal.

So you for sure can consider it P2W if you consider this games main focus being on cosmetics. On the other hand, that is personal. For people who don’t care about cosmetics and play a lot of WvW it’s clearly not.

Do you even understand what p2w means ?
That’s buying Stat increase items,Stronger weapons,Armor with higher base stats that would give you an edge over your opponent just for laying down money while others can’t.There is None of this in the gemstore.

Devata.6589:

Schumi.4285:

A short definition of “pay2win-Games” from Urban Dictionary:
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

You can neither buy better gear nor can you craft them faster as anyone actually playing the game. Even if you buy the best gear (i.e. legendary weapons) then you’re still not stronger as someone with ascended gear. You may look more shiny but that’s about it. So there’s also no imbalance given.

Side note: You would even have to spend ridiculous amounts of money to get legendary weapons.

So, OP, there is absolutely no p2w given here.

p2ls (pay to look shiny) maybe but it’s not for the win

Not even the “boosters” in the shop will give you advantages to someone actually knowing how to handle his character by playing for a while.

BUT
the topic is interesting anyways since:

- ANet makes money with the shop
- ANet only makes money if people buy gems for real cash, not for gold.
- This said, giving tons of gold to players actually harms their own income.
- Because they don’t want to destroy their income, RNGesus does not listen to your prayers.
- Drops are not worth a lot.

so IF (and that’s a big, big IF) ANet removes the gold->gem conversion and people had to actually spend real cash to get gem store stuff, ingame drops could be way better and everyone could have one or two legendary weapons easily, because it does not matter if people are hoarding gold. Traders could not buy fancy costumes, not even with 1000s and millions of gold.
But as long as gold interferes with ANets monthly income, you will always find gold sinks and RNGesus mechanisms all over the game.

Just my 2 cents…

Define better? Is a more flashy or better look not better? Especially in a game based so much on cosmetics? You can also get them faster when spending cash.

It does not make it unbalance but that’s about it.

And winning.. in some games winning might be killing or completing a mission, in GW2 winning seems to be getting the best looking things. Again that is of course personal.

So you for sure can consider it P2W if you consider this games main focus being on cosmetics. On the other hand, that is personal. For people who don’t care about cosmetics and play a lot of WvW it’s clearly not.

And why exactly do you care how someone else got his shinnies? And why should you care how he got them?

Do you also care if someone got it with super luck and by offering sacrifices to the RNG gods?

Why is getting something cosmetic through real money considered so bad and getting it through horrible RNG is not. I see them as both exactly the same, someone got a shinny before me, period, nothing more.

If there was something that you could never get by playing the game then I’d agree it’s P2W, but there is nothing you can’t get by playing the game, even things on the gem store.

Brother Grimm.5176:

The misuse of the term, “Pay 2 Win”, is rampant on these forums. Obtaining a convenience item or something that is a “shortcut” is NOT “WINNING”.

The term refers to being FORCED to pay RL money to PROGRESS in a game in some manner. Nothing purchase-wise in GW2 is even close to being FORCED (ok, I’ll concede that not purchasing some extra storage would make the game difficult, but there are long term players that still only have ONE bank tab). Beyond that, EVERYTHING is optional.

Outfitting all your characters in Ascended gear and Legendary Weapons is only “WINNING” in your own mind….

Lytalm.5673:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

While I am not one of those that blindly believe that the Gold/Gems / Visa-Versa exchange is fully driven by player supply/demand (I think those that do are gulible), I also don’t think Anet manipulates it to make money (but let’s not fool ourselves that they aren’t capable of doing so without anyone having any knowledge of it).

Some players seem to believe that Anet is here for the sole purpose of providing them endless free entertainment and somehow the concept of making a profit on said entertainment provision is an EVIL thing. Their continual self-delusion and battle against this EVIL concept is what 95% of these threads are really about.

So if you join a contest and you can win a painting or flowers it’s not winning because it is just a cosmetic item you win? It would only be winning if you would get something like a sweater because that is able to keep you warm so has ‘useful’ properties? Nonsense of course. Winning is winning and if you can buy items you would otherwise be able to win in the game you could consider it P2W.

The term P2W simply originated from PvP games where they sold stats that let you kill other not paying members easy. (so that is also not like you say, forcing you in order to progress) usually those not paying members could still get the same stats but it simply would require an endless boring grind (just as that’s true for cosmetics in GW2). That however does not mean you could not consider cosmetics also P2W especially if the game is all about cosmetics like GW2. Using caps to says that’s not the case does not make it true. something a lot of people also seem to think on these forums.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Schumi.4285:

~

Define better? Is a more flashy or better look not better? Especially in a game based so much on cosmetics? You can also get them faster when spending cash.

It does not make it unbalance but that’s about it.

And winning.. in some games winning might be killing or completing a mission, in GW2 winning seems to be getting the best looking things. Again that is of course personal.

So you for sure can consider it P2W if you consider this games main focus being on cosmetics. On the other hand, that is personal. For people who don’t care about cosmetics and play a lot of WvW it’s clearly not.

And why exactly do you care how someone else got his shinnies? And why should you care how he got them?

Do you also care if someone got it with super luck and by offering sacrifices to the RNG gods?

Why is getting something cosmetic through real money considered so bad and getting it through horrible RNG is not. I see them as both exactly the same, someone got a shinny before me, period, nothing more.

If there was something that you could never get by playing the game then I’d agree it’s P2W, but there is nothing you can’t get by playing the game, even things on the gem store.

“And why exactly do you care how someone else got his shinnies?” first of all the problem is that at this moment for many of those there are only 2 options.. grind, grind, grind gold or buy it. So where is the game-play of chancing them in-game? A game-play I personally like a lot and do on other mmo’s, hunting down those items. In GW2 it’s not there!

And then why is it important how other people get it. If you can simply buy an item it completely devaluates the item from a game-play perspective. If you would get it as a reward you know he had to complete that content (think liadri) but what does for example a Legendary tell me? He brainlessly grinded gold for a long time or spend real cash on it. That it not valuable from a game-play perspective.

Do you also care if someone got it with super luck and by offering sacrifices to the RNG gods? If it was RNG it might be supper luck, but if somebody has multiple of those items it’s less likely to simply be luck. But sure RNG items would be less valuable from a game-play perspective as direct rewards for some challenging content are.

“Why is getting something cosmetic through real money considered so bad and getting it through horrible RNG is not.” I do not say getting it through horrible RNG it not bad.

“If there was something that you could never get by playing the game then I’d agree it’s P2W, but there is nothing you can’t get by playing the game, even things on the gem store.”
Funny thing is that by applying this logic to many of the games that are considered and known for being P2W, they would not be P2W because in most of those games you can still earn all those things in-game. It just requires an endless boring grind for coins.

People simply allow too much junk from companies, that’s why we also get it. Earning it in game would be better than buying it looking at the game-play. That’s a fact as buying it, is no game-play. So why making up excuses for it?

Caedmon.6798:

Do you even understand what p2w means ?
That’s buying Stat increase items,Stronger weapons,Armor with higher base stats that would give you an edge over your opponent just for laying down money while others can’t. There is None of this in the gemstore.

So you define what Pay 2 Win is?

Isn’t Pay 2 Win simply Paying too Win? And if winning it getting the best cosmetics, is paying to get the best cosmetics not paying to win?

Why would paying for stats be pay to win? Because getting best stats is winning for you?

kuben.9826:

Never saw such topic, so don’t bite if it’s here already.
The game wouldnt be “p2w” for most people. You’d have to do everything by yourself-no shortcuts for those who “don’t have enough time to farm money for legendary”.
What do You guys think?

read this closed the thread

Devata.6589:

People simply allow too much junk from companies, that’s why we also get it. Earning it in game would be better than buying it looking at the game-play. That’s a fact as buying it, is no game-play. So why making up excuses for it?

Well, getting those skins through gameplay IS the prefered option of course. But for me, there is no difference between “horrible grind to get something” and “using real money to get something”. There is also the “got extremely lucky” option, you get an expensive drop through RNG, sell it, make loads of gold and buy anything on the gem store for “free”.

How is that any different than using real money to get the same item? One requires a real job, the other requires luck, the end result is the exact same, someone got something without putting any gameplay effort.

I dislike all of those equally, but having the option to buy gold with real money has two great benefits:
a) actually makes my game better because the company also makes money out of it from those who are unwilling to grind.
b) it reduces the amount of RMT gold selling, because the company is doing the same thing “legit”

In an ideal world we wouldn’t have to grind like mindless zombies to get what we want. However, having those real money conversions doesn’t harm the game, at least as much as the RNG does.

Devata.6589:

Caedmon.6798:

Do you even understand what p2w means ?
That’s buying Stat increase items,Stronger weapons,Armor with higher base stats that would give you an edge over your opponent just for laying down money while others can’t. There is None of this in the gemstore.

So you define what Pay 2 Win is?

Isn’t Pay 2 Win simply Paying too Win? And if winning it getting the best cosmetics, is paying to get the best cosmetics not paying to win?

Why would paying for stats be pay to win? Because getting best stats is winning for you?

You are not “winning” by getting better cosmetics. There is no contest and “win” for best looking character, or best looking sword in the game. There are no beauty contests so what exactly are you “losing” if the person next to you has a legendary or two?

If seeing players with shinnies makes you feel like you lost something, turn down character details. Problems solved.

BunjiKugashira.9754:

You do know that the gold -> gem and gem -> gold ratios are affected by how much players trade in either direction? If you trade gold -> gem you basically buy the gems that someone else traded gem -> gold
….
tl;dr No, don’t disable it!

Yep I know that and that’s why the price has risen from 3g per 800 gems when I started to – what’s it currently? – 100 gold per 800 gems now.
The point of my “IF-” part was that the gold to gem exchange is favoring traders and lucky people over those having to work hard for 100 gold. Those whose prayers are not heard by RNGesus have to work hard for 100g. So IF there was no such exchange and everyone had to buy gems to get gemstore items, good, valuable drops worth the time you had to work for would not be such a problem to ANet.
Yes, the prices for gems would rise if people were getting better drops and buying gems for it, but that would make a gem to gold exchange also more interesting for gem buyers.

I hope you can understand my point now.

On the other hand, I don’t care about the current system since I know how to get gold ingame but also buy gems for cash to support ANet.

Caedmon.6798:

So you define what Pay 2 Win is?

Isn’t Pay 2 Win simply Paying too Win? And if winning it getting the best cosmetics, is paying to get the best cosmetics not paying to win?

Why would paying for stats be pay to win? Because getting best stats is winning for you?

What are best cosmetics? Please define it!
I think for example that the legendary greatswords are just so plain ugly and I’d prefer a 5g greatsword. So in my humble opinion a 5g skin is better than a 3000g skin. So is it a pay2lose now? Since I can buy money to buy crappy skins? Cosmetics are about personal preferences. If you think ALL gemstore items are more beautiful or the more valuable the skin the better, then it might be pay2win for you. But not for a lot of other players.

Devata.6589:

Brother Grimm.5176:

The misuse of the term, “Pay 2 Win”, is rampant on these forums. Obtaining a convenience item or something that is a “shortcut” is NOT “WINNING”.

The term refers to being FORCED to pay RL money to PROGRESS in a game in some manner. Nothing purchase-wise in GW2 is even close to being FORCED (ok, I’ll concede that not purchasing some extra storage would make the game difficult, but there are long term players that still only have ONE bank tab). Beyond that, EVERYTHING is optional.

Outfitting all your characters in Ascended gear and Legendary Weapons is only “WINNING” in your own mind….

Lytalm.5673:

Lytalm.5673:

Why are we even caring about stupid post like that?

because the post is actually about a legitimate issue, even if the solution isnt feasible. This is a line anet has to walk carefully, and try to come up with a balance that works.

While I am not one of those that blindly believe that the Gold/Gems / Visa-Versa exchange is fully driven by player supply/demand (I think those that do are gulible), I also don’t think Anet manipulates it to make money (but let’s not fool ourselves that they aren’t capable of doing so without anyone having any knowledge of it).

Some players seem to believe that Anet is here for the sole purpose of providing them endless free entertainment and somehow the concept of making a profit on said entertainment provision is an EVIL thing. Their continual self-delusion and battle against this EVIL concept is what 95% of these threads are really about.

The term P2W simply originated from PvP games where they sold stats that let you kill other not paying members easy. (so that is also not like you say, forcing you in order to progress) usually those not paying members could not get the same stats even it require an endless boring grind (how is that’s true for cosmetics in GW2). That however does not mean you could consider cosmetics also P2W especially if the game is all about pvp like GW2.

Fixed that for ya…

The biggest turnoff about this game is the fact that you can buy anything in it for cash money by this gem/gold conversion.

That is pay to win, period.

Chuo.4238:

The biggest turnoff about this game is the fact that you can buy anything in it for cash money by this gem/gold conversion.

That is pay to win, period.

Pay to win would be if those items were only available by cash.

Every single stat item is available in game.

At the loosest, this is pay2gofaster, which is a convenience. Aka pay for convenience as people have said.

Gear doesn’t even matter that much.

You can get full exotic for under 10g, of which i had over 100 by the time i hit 80 in 2weeks as a new player. I was also geared full exotic in less than a week too.

Next invalid point please.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

People simply allow too much junk from companies, that’s why we also get it. Earning it in game would be better than buying it looking at the game-play. That’s a fact as buying it, is no game-play. So why making up excuses for it?

Well, getting those skins through gameplay IS the prefered option of course. But for me, there is no difference between “horrible grind to get something” and “using real money to get something”. There is also the “got extremely lucky” option, you get an expensive drop through RNG, sell it, make loads of gold and buy anything on the gem store for “free”.

How is that any different than using real money to get the same item? One requires a real job, the other requires luck, the end result is the exact same, someone got something without putting any gameplay effort.

I dislike all of those equally, but having the option to buy gold with real money has two great benefits:
a) actually makes my game better because the company also makes money out of it from those who are unwilling to grind.
b) it reduces the amount of RMT gold selling, because the company is doing the same thing “legit”

In an ideal world we wouldn’t have to grind like mindless zombies to get what we want. However, having those real money conversions doesn’t harm the game, at least as much as the RNG does.

“In an ideal world we wouldn’t have to grind like mindless zombies to get what we want. However, having those real money conversions doesn’t harm the game” The start of your sentence is one of the reasons it harms the game. the thing you say it does not in the second part of that sentence. In addition there is the fact that the game-play that could have come with the reward (hunting it down) is gone.

And really, the RNG isn’t an option for many items is it? It’s not like many things have items drop with a reasonable RNG. Especially not for the items in the cash-shop.

And really, does it help to get money from those who don’t like to mindlessly grind gold? Only a very few of them, other stop playing the game, while they could also have been buying expansion if they got release on a little faster pace.

Anyway, my real question was already answered with your first sentence.

“Well, getting those skins through gameplay IS the prefered option of course.” that is what it is about. That is preferred so if possible that should be the way to implement it and imho that is possible, it just requires a shift of their focus for income.

Chuo.4238:

The biggest turnoff about this game is the fact that you can buy anything in it for cash money by this gem/gold conversion.

That is pay to win, period.

I’m trying to buy the Luminescent Armor using gem/gold conversion but it isn’t working, am I doing something wrong?

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Caedmon.6798:

Do you even understand what p2w means ?
That’s buying Stat increase items,Stronger weapons,Armor with higher base stats that would give you an edge over your opponent just for laying down money while others can’t. There is None of this in the gemstore.

So you define what Pay 2 Win is?

Isn’t Pay 2 Win simply Paying too Win? And if winning it getting the best cosmetics, is paying to get the best cosmetics not paying to win?

Why would paying for stats be pay to win? Because getting best stats is winning for you?

You are not “winning” by getting better cosmetics. There is no contest and “win” for best looking character, or best looking sword in the game. There are no beauty contests so what exactly are you “losing” if the person next to you has a legendary or two?

If seeing players with shinnies makes you feel like you lost something, turn down character details. Problems solved.

“There is no contest and “win” for best looking character, or best looking sword in the game. There are no beauty contests." i am pretty sure for many that contest very much exists.

Devata.6589:

“Well, getting those skins through gameplay IS the prefered option of course.” that is what it is about. That is preferred so if possible that should be the way to implement it and imho that is possible, it just requires a shift of their focus for income.

Focusing their income on expansions, releasing said expansions at a much quicker pace (not once every 3 years), make most items obtainable through in-game activities, reduce grind etc would certainly make the game better.

However, with the way the game is currenly working (RNG and GRIND) I don’t see how converting gems to gold conversion harms it in any way more than anything else. It is instead a good thing.

Now you can say there IS so much dependence on RNG / GRIND BECAUSE there is a gem → gold conversion but that’s different. The OP asked to remove Gem → Gold, not Anet to change their focus completely AND remove Gem → Gold. Just removing gem → gold isn’t going to do much, if anything it will make the game worse if everything else stays the same.

Since the discussion in this thread has derailed and is no longer constructive this thread is now closed.