Guild Wars 2

Nuka Cola.8520:

there’s no end game. The only end game content i can think of is standing in a city like LA afk, that’s gw2’s end game.

standing in Stormwind / orgrimmar and being afk is boring and not cool places at all

Lion arch is atleast much cooler place to afk Plus its more fun

Braggo.7819:

Although i have had GW2 since the first beta i haven’t played much as i have a WoW subscription. Im looking to cancel WoW and using GW2 as my MMO and playing alot of other single player games.

What is the end game like here? from what i can see it is mainly PvP based as i havent heard of raids other than the world boss style of things.

Do you Queue for instances or is it finding your own group? as finding your own group sounds difficult.

Is the “lack of players” i heard about troubling or just people talking crap?

Finally i am mainly a pve player so does this game suit me or do i need to be a pvper?

sorry the the wall of text and questions.

Ill voice an opinion.

Once you hit 80, It becomes a grind for money, karma or various rewards as loot for gear. (chests, kills or achievement rewards, etc.) That’s similar to every other mmo out there. New content was added called Fractals of the Mists. This opened up a avenue for people to grind for loot. (see above) as well as new features like Ascended gear. This caused people to not roam the end-game lands or run those dungeon as much. They still do but it’s a bit harder to find people. If you want the dungeon gear, You have to run the dungeons but it’s not necessary. See the reasoning?

I have yet to dig into PvP really. It’s its own entity. Your best bet is to find four of five active players when you play for the group content. That way you won’t have to keep trying to find people to run it and you’ll get to know how everyone plays and become efficient.

Didn’t anyone else link this yet?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/players/So-You-Hit-80-A-Quick-Endgame-Handbook/

Cheers.

Lankybrit.4598:

Didn’t anyone else link this yet?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/players/So-You-Hit-80-A-Quick-Endgame-Handbook/

Cheers.

Post was made 3 months ago – kinda funny that he reserved 2 additional posts to add stuff later, but never did… Looks like there wasn’t as much to do as he thought =P

What he did write down goes along the lines of this:

1. Farm for a specific item!
2. Explore!
3. Farm some karma!
4. Farm some gold!
5. Uhh…. yea…

IMHO: The ‘end game’ is you’ve: seen/played all the content and max leveled your toon. There are a number of races/professions that you could play or find another game/title to play.

While the game is fairly large and there is a lot of content here, I can’t see (at least in its current form) how it could be considered a ‘pay once and play forever’ title. Granted ‘completionists’ may want to play/level every race/profession but frankly I don’t see the point. After a few 100 hours on one title I’m usually ready for another game.

taomang.2183:

For now all i can tell all of my friends is that they should def buy the game, play it until they reach their own goals, and then just drop it and do something else. Gw2 has the best leveling experience i had (but i played during launch so there were a lot of people to tackle DEs with, i don’t know how it is now with empty areas), and i would recommend anyone to play it, but not expect any end game and not to get too invested. Just have fun while it lasts.

This.

This is a single player game with other people around. (kinda like Skyrim but there are friends/strangers exploring with you) This is my 1st MMO title and given its ‘performance issues’ and the issues that seemingly are inherent in the genera it may be my last.

It’s taken me a few weeks to get one toon to LVL40. When I get to LVL80 I’ll likely purchase another game and enjoy (or not!) that start-finish. Repeat.

I have never really looked at GW2 as needing an “end game”. To me in this context ‘No Endgame’ has become a catch all excuse used to describe boredom when there is no perceived “stuff to keep me motivated to play”. In a subscription model you have every right to whine about it. Why pay subs when you completed the content and there is nothing left to do? GW2 has zero consequences for stopping for a while and/or just playing very casually.

GW2 as it is, seems to be using a content spigot approach to keep people interested. Play it until you used up the content or get bored… now stop…. Then come back when there is something new to see and experience. Are people so ingrained in the old mentality of WoW they can’t imagine ever actually taking a break from a game till it has something new for them to do?

Kuruptz.4782:

Nuka Cola.8520:

there’s no end game. The only end game content i can think of is standing in a city like LA afk, that’s gw2’s end game.

standing in Stormwind / orgrimmar and being afk is boring and not cool places at all

Lion arch is atleast much cooler place to afk Plus its more fun

Difference is in WoW there are actual things to do when not AFKing in Stormwind/Orgrimmar. GW2 doesn’t have the luxury of things to entertain it’s players at level 80.

Amra.6028:

Now that’s a nice way of putting it. Add the usual content updates for variety and things, and no one needs “harder dungeons that require better gears”. Too bad ANet won’t do it like that, I guess. Let’s see how they attempt to shovel content without stable revenue.

But the harder content should definitely exist… There’s people who like challenges

MAXIMISE.8321:

I have never really looked at GW2 as needing an “end game”. To me in this context ‘No Endgame’ has become a catch all excuse used to describe boredom when there is no perceived “stuff to keep me motivated to play”. In a subscription model you have every right to whine about it. Why pay subs when you completed the content and there is nothing left to do? GW2 has zero consequences for stopping for a while and/or just playing very casually.

GW2 as it is, seems to be using a content spigot approach to keep people interested. Play it until you used up the content or get bored… now stop…. Then come back when there is something new to see and experience. Are people so ingrained in the old mentality of WoW they can’t imagine ever actually taking a break from a game till it has something new for them to do?

Besides $60 that most of us worked for to play a game with other people, but we didn’t start at launch, so surprise, those other people aren’t around, to do dungeons as a group, but since you’re not 80 you can’t go with most groups since the gear gives that much of an advantage, then when you finally catch up in levels, you realize there’s not really that much to do… You spent $60 on an MMO, to basically play the Skyrim game that you already owned.

We’re not paying a subscription, but we still payed. And that money went to one of the worst MMORPG experiences out there.

Vasham.2408:

Kuruptz.4782:

Nuka Cola.8520:

there’s no end game. The only end game content i can think of is standing in a city like LA afk, that’s gw2’s end game.

standing in Stormwind / orgrimmar and being afk is boring and not cool places at all

Lion arch is atleast much cooler place to afk Plus its more fun

Difference is in WoW there are actual things to do when not AFKing in Stormwind/Orgrimmar. GW2 doesn’t have the luxury of things to entertain it’s players at level 80.

It does not have anything to entertain “YOU” and other players that might have your same mindset as to how this game or any other MMO for that matter must play.

It has more than enough content post 80 for other players that want something different such as myself.

I just do not get how you cannot understand this.

Do you like to listen to the same music that your mother does? Do you like all the same foods that your friends like? Do you prefer salty snacks or would you rather have a piece of chocolate?

Do you see my point yet?

What is this “endgame” you speak of?

Gbok.1039:

Vasham.2408:

Kuruptz.4782:

Nuka Cola.8520:

there’s no end game. The only end game content i can think of is standing in a city like LA afk, that’s gw2’s end game.

standing in Stormwind / orgrimmar and being afk is boring and not cool places at all

Lion arch is atleast much cooler place to afk Plus its more fun

Difference is in WoW there are actual things to do when not AFKing in Stormwind/Orgrimmar. GW2 doesn’t have the luxury of things to entertain it’s players at level 80.

It does not have anything to entertain “YOU” and other players that might have your same mindset as to how this game or any other MMO for that matter must play.

It has more than enough content post 80 for other players that want something different such as myself.

I just do not get how you cannot understand this.

Do you like to listen to the same music that your mother does? Do you like all the same foods that your friends like? Do you prefer salty snacks or would you rather have a piece of chocolate?

Do you see my point yet?

Yeah, we see your point. But just like we don’t want to listen to the same music our mother does, we don’t want to spend our level 80 experience doing jump puzzles.

Endgame is:

For PVE: Legendaries, fractals, shiny stuff.
For Story/PVE: Kill the hell outa Zhaitan.
For sPVP: Reach rank <insert idk what number here>
For WvW: Rule everything.

Yep, I looove it <3

JoakimFA.4713:

What is this “endgame” you speak of?

Here, lemme reword that in a manner that better reflects the issue at hand.

JoakimFA.4713:

What endgame?

There we go.

endgame in an mmo is a misnomer

OP, this is my advice.

Take your time doing everything there is to do in the game, and don’t pay attention to level.

By the time you’re done it ALL, another expansion that focuses on later-level content will come out. ANet focused its development on the 1-80 experience (though most of the dungeons are meant to be post-80 content, as the skins are all level 80!) in order to give it the depth that many other new MMOs lack.

The future xpacs are meant to address post-80 stuff.

ANet is taking its time to try to do it right. I’d rather see multiple starter areas and stories than just one, like most MMOs besides WoW have been, and a bunch of dungeons that people burn through.

Sylv.5324:

OP, this is my advice.

Take your time doing everything there is to do in the game, and don’t pay attention to level.

By the time you’re done it ALL, another expansion that focuses on later-level content will come out. ANet focused its development on the 1-80 experience (though most of the dungeons are meant to be post-80 content, as the skins are all level 80!) in order to give it the depth that many other new MMOs lack.

The future xpacs are meant to address post-80 stuff.

ANet is taking its time to try to do it right. I’d rather see multiple starter areas and stories than just one, like most MMOs besides WoW have been, and a bunch of dungeons that people burn through.

See there’s a problem with this attitude. There was a little known game called SWTOR that came out recently. Small budget title, relatively unknown developer and publisher. They released their MMO assuming the fact it focused on story over endgame content would carry it until they could release more content down the line. By the end of the first month most of their player base had quit because there was nothing to do.

GW2 is headed down this road. Replace “focus on story” with “everything is endgame” and you’ve got the the same issue in a different package. Could Arenanet be saving some massive, uber entertaining endgame content for release? Sure they could. Will it be too late if they don’t act fast? You’re kitten right it will be.

I dont get what people consider end game??? because if its not just 10 man raids GW2 has EVERYTHING ells that other MMO’s have for end game (( and more if you count JP achements and such))

and if your looking for hard content Fractals at level 50+ you also ALWAY’S get pretty epic lootz at that point, if you cant get groups warm your way into a hardcore fractal running guild ((should be easyer after this months update))

Yamiino.1827:

Endgame is:

For PVE: Legendaries, fractals, shiny stuff.
For Story/PVE: Kill the hell outa Zhaitan.
For sPVP: Reach rank <insert idk what number here>
For WvW: Rule everything.

Yep, I looove it <3

you could also count all the kitten under that achevment tab in your hero panel

tonyl.5063:

Gbok.1039:

Vasham.2408:

Kuruptz.4782:

Nuka Cola.8520:

there’s no end game. The only end game content i can think of is standing in a city like LA afk, that’s gw2’s end game.

standing in Stormwind / orgrimmar and being afk is boring and not cool places at all

Lion arch is atleast much cooler place to afk Plus its more fun

Difference is in WoW there are actual things to do when not AFKing in Stormwind/Orgrimmar. GW2 doesn’t have the luxury of things to entertain it’s players at level 80.

It does not have anything to entertain “YOU” and other players that might have your same mindset as to how this game or any other MMO for that matter must play.

It has more than enough content post 80 for other players that want something different such as myself.

I just do not get how you cannot understand this.

Do you like to listen to the same music that your mother does? Do you like all the same foods that your friends like? Do you prefer salty snacks or would you rather have a piece of chocolate?

Do you see my point yet?

Yeah, we see your point. But just like we don’t want to listen to the same music our mother does, we don’t want to spend our level 80 experience doing jump puzzles.

what about mini world Dungeons …..

and we shouldnt forget the monthly update’s we have had 3 so far and there are 3 more for the next 3 months we no about with new content and new stuff to earn

the whole endgame mentality is the cancer that is killing mmos

Nope.

In normal games, you start and finish them. But in mmos, you want to keep playing forever (or until bored). That’s why there is the expression endgame, what you do when a normal game would have ended. There is nothing wrong about that word, and it makes total sense in this type of games.

kal.4350:

…In normal games, you start and finish them. But in mmos, you want to keep playing forever…

That’s a good quote to show why the term, ‘endgame,’ is kinda silly.

Voltar.8574:

kal.4350:

…In normal games, you start and finish them. But in mmos, you want to keep playing forever…

That’s a good quote to show why the term, ‘endgame,’ is kinda silly.

No, like I said where you stopped quoting me, it’s the gameplay you do when other type of games would have ended-> endgame

[/quote]

Yeah, we see your point. But just like we don’t want to listen to the same music our mother does, we don’t want to spend our level 80 experience doing jump puzzles.[/quote]

The point was different people like different things. If you got this you would stop trying to turn every MMO that comes out into what “YOU” specifically like and understand that this game might not be for you.

If you like the way another game plays so much better…then go play it.

I personally love how GW2 is set up and have no issues finding fun things that I enjoy to do in the game post 80.

BTW +1 on being a smart kitten You go boy.

Gbok.1039:

It has more than enough content post 80 for other players that want something different such as myself.

I just do not get how you cannot understand this.

Do you like to listen to the same music that your mother does? Do you like all the same foods that your friends like? Do you prefer salty snacks or would you rather have a piece of chocolate?

Do you see my point yet?

The point is, players like yourself are a small minority. And that makes this a very niche game that cannot succeed in the way it was originally hoped (including by myself.).

An empty MMO with no one making cash shop purchases will look like a very different place, as is evident. Plan B isn’t pretty (look at TOR). It was a valiant effort but it’s not working out for most.

Zeldain.5710:

Gbok.1039:

It has more than enough content post 80 for other players that want something different such as myself.

I just do not get how you cannot understand this.

Do you like to listen to the same music that your mother does? Do you like all the same foods that your friends like? Do you prefer salty snacks or would you rather have a piece of chocolate?

Do you see my point yet?

The point is, players like yourself are a small minority. And that makes this a very niche game that cannot succeed in the way it was originally hoped (including by myself.).

An empty MMO with no one making cash shop purchases will look like a very different place, as is evident. Plan B isn’t pretty (look at TOR). It was a valiant effort but it’s not working out for most.

Who says we are a small minority. Where are your numbers and data to show that we are in fact the minority?

And maybe you are correct. Maybe there just are not enough people in the world to support a game that you simply play becasue it is fun to do so. Which makes me sad as I have no desire to chase gear like I have done in the past with other games.

And that is all anyone who is complaining about this game is looking for. More gear to chase. There is in fact more than enough activities here to do post 80. Just not enough shinnies for those who need that carrot to keep playing. And by shinnies I mean higher stat gear to feel more powerful than other players.

Gbok.1039:

Who says we are a small minority. Where are your numbers and data to show that we are in fact the minority?

And maybe you are correct. Maybe there just are not enough people in the world to support a game that you simply play becasue it is fun to do so. Which makes me sad as I have no desire to chase gear like I have done in the past with other games.

And that is all anyone who is complaining about this game is looking for. More gear to chase. There is in fact more than enough activities here to do post 80. Just not enough shinnies for those who need that carrot to keep playing. And by shinnies I mean higher stat gear to feel more powerful than other players.

It really doesn’t have much to do with rewards, honestly. It has to do more with (lack of) progression. An MMORPG is supposed to provide a long-term proposition in terms of character progression… whether that’s through end game, systems like crafting or reputation, or what have you. GW2 has none of that. The only “end game” is to grind for a Legendary weapon.

There simply isn’t enough to keep people playing, and no – simplistic “fun” is not enough for an MMORPG – there has to be depth and long-term character progression options and variety.

Gbok.1039:

Who says we are a small minority.

ANets decision to add new gear tiers and raise the level cap say so. They have the data, and they are acting based on it. What’s endangering their success isn’t that they cater to people who like endless progression, but that they try to strike a balance between the few “plateauers” and the rest, which is preventing them from adding enough meaningful progression to satisfy the masses. Just like people won’t do events if the rewards are in adequate, they are not going to want to play if they can’t get stronger better Harder, Better, Faster and Stronger. Horizontal progression like skins and titles are nothing more than the spices enhancing the actual “meaty” progression, which is leveling, gearing and generally getting stronger, like GW1s PvE-only title rank based skills.

They have to fully commit to progression, not chicken out half way by adding one set of new gear over the course of a whole year. I mean you can release individual gear items, sure, but you have to make sure to have the next gear piece ready for release by the time the majority of people are done with the previous.

Vasham.2408:

GW2 is headed down this road. Replace “focus on story” with “everything is endgame” and you’ve got the the same issue in a different package. Could Arenanet be saving some massive, uber entertaining endgame content for release? Sure they could. Will it be too late if they don’t act fast? You’re kitten right it will be.

If they keep the servers open as long as they have GW1’s, I will relish the respite from complaining when said complainers have moved on to the next game that isn’t WoW.

We might have a smaller game, but GW1 players are loyal. I wish ANet kept us more in mind sometimes. (I’ve spent 600$ on the cash shop so far, it’s not like we’re stingy customers.)

Oh you’re forgetting the fact that ANet nerfed into oblivion the open world drops and that they exaggerated DR to the nth degree forcing you to do what would take 5 min into 5 years. Did I miss anything? Oh and this game herds you into their store to buy things. This game reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Money_Pit

I think they may have stealth upped them, I’ve been making good money farming the last couple days.

(Reposted from my locked thread)

Let me begin by saying I love this game. Really, really love it. It’s almost everything I could ask for in an MMO and would love to keep playing it, and likely will from time to time.

I know this will likely get lots of GW and GW2 purists angry and yelling at me about how I’m missing the point or that my opinion is wrong, etc etc. So, you can be assured that those posts that do not offer any kind of intelligent discussion will be promptly ignored.

This game has nearly everything. What it does not have is real end-game content for guilds. It has 5 man content and open world content, but it has no raids. And while I appreciate the reasons that AN chose not to include raids, but I think the logic is flawed. They don’t want an end-game grind. No endless treadmill of grinding for gear. However, we already have this. There’s a gear-grind in getting ascended gear in fractals. There’s a gear grind in getting tokens for dungeon sets, etc.

Why couldn’t there be 10, 20 or 25 man dungeons with the same philosophy as the above? Gear doesn’t have to be better, so there’s no other reason other than to get tokens for nice looking gear.

Most guilds I have ever been with prefer the content over the gear. Gear is a way to get to better content in other games. GW2 is unique that it doesn’t have to be that way. All raids would be relevant and content challenging. There could even be a Story Mode and Explorable modes allowing most everyone access to the dungeons, like 5 man content.

ArenaNet seems to be willing to build their game for all types of players but the Raider. While we may not be popular with a lot of the die-hard Guild Wars 2 fans who want to keep the WoW elitists out, but I think with the current setup of dungeons being extended to larger group types, I think that the GW2 fans could see some pretty incredible content.

As it stands right now, there’s nothing aside from a WvW and open world zerging on Orr for guilds to organize to do together, above 5 players. And that’s very sad.
All of this is reasons why many of my friends from other MMOs stopped playing after 80. There’s only so many explorable dungeons with a few friends to do, only so many times you can level characters or do PVP (if you’re not a hard core PVPer) before the post-leveling experience gets stale.

I hope that AN would consider expanding the game to include larger group content in the future. Without the treadmill they see in other end game content, but all the wonderful content I know AN is able to put out.

^^ Well said Conwolv.

The lack of content for guilds is the biggest problem, but as you can see by combat design I don’t think they ever intended it. So It ends up being a game you either like or hate for what it is, and it seems many people dislike it for it’s lack of team-based long-term gameplay objectives/progression.

Honestly, I think with the scale of the Dynamic Events like the dragons that they could easily do 20 man content in an instance without much trouble. They’d just make the mechanics less forgiving and design for a set number of players, rather than scaling based on how many people are involved in the DE.

When they start locking specific skins and stats behind 20-man raids, yes, that’s a problem that will exclude many people from being able to access it. Not everyone has access to a large raiding group, let alone one that is mellow.

If they introduce 20-mans, I’ll probably just quit MMOs for good, as GW2 was my hope for an MMO that did not build its game around raids (and I have taken them at their word that they would not create big raids). It was annoying in WoW, it gated stuff out of many people’s reach, caused a lot of resentment, and put strain on guilds and friendships.

Sylv.5324:

When they start locking specific skins and stats behind 20-man raids, yes, that’s a problem that will exclude many people from being able to access it. Not everyone has access to a large raiding group, let alone one that is mellow.

If they introduce 20-mans, I’ll probably just quit MMOs for good, as GW2 was my hope for an MMO that did not build its game around raids (and I have taken them at their word that they would not create big raids). It was annoying in WoW, it gated stuff out of many people’s reach, caused a lot of resentment, and put strain on guilds and friendships.

I see no problem with locking skins behind content (remember, they are just skins), in fact that’s what makes it interesting.

Honestly I can’t believe they didn’t even do this with open world content… Why isn’t there a “Claw of The Shatterer” dagger I can get ONLY by killing him?

But the need for large-scale organized group PvE content is there… some form of activity/progression for guilds needs to exist.

ANet’s view was that locking them behind large raids was too exclusionary to most of the playerbase. Which I agree with.

’They’re just skins!’ is silly to say when the whole point of the game is to acquire cool skins.

What ANet should do (my armchair self says) is finish that guild v guild stuff that they’ve alluded to.

Sylv.5324:

ANet’s view was that locking them behind large raids was too exclusionary to most of the playerbase. Which I agree with.

’They’re just skins!’ is silly to say when the whole point of the game is to acquire cool skins.

What ANet should do (my armchair self says) is finish that guild v guild stuff that they’ve alluded to.

You really can’t have it both ways, though. The skins are unnecessary to see other content, which was the GW2 mantra, I thought? And making them more coveted only serves to make more interesting content for players to go after.

Also, as I mentioned open world content there’s nothing at all exclusionary about it. Everyone can participate just by walking by and tagging. If the Shatterer dropped a claw that I could use for a dagger that I could ONLY get from him, that would make it 10000x more interesting and desirable.

Just to amend to my post above – that could almost function as a guild mode as well. If certain content-specific gear drops from a mob, perhaps they only drop it in some sort of “hard mode” if killed a certain way, or without certain abilities (or him using certain abilities). This would give true team-based guilds a skill ceiling to shoot for, and control what the loot table looks like.

Zeldain.5710:

You really can’t have it both ways, though. The skins are unnecessary to see other content,

You don’t need it both ways, because you don’t need 20-man raids in GW2. They set a high number of participants that is hard to manage and coordinate, and blocks everyone else from participating just because of that. It’s exclusionary and runs counter to the philosophy that the devs laid out in their manifesto for this game— as they themselves have said.

Right now, any skin is accessible to any party of five, which is not prohibitively difficult to form. Ratcheting up the number of players just so a small minority can feel better about themselves is not fair. Not only that, it diverts resources away from other parts of the game and consumes too many for too few.

At the very least, if ANet introduces that kind of raid, I will not spend another cent on the game, because I won’t contribute to that kind of crap.

Zeldain.5710:

Just to amend to my post above – that could almost function as a guild mode as well. If certain content-specific gear drops from a mob, perhaps they only drop it in some sort of “hard mode” if killed a certain way, or without certain abilities (or him using certain abilities). This would give true team-based guilds a skill ceiling to shoot for, and control what the loot table looks like.

Acquiring a skin in GW1 and 2 has never been about the size of your guild, and hopefully they stick to their guns when they said it never will.

Guild wars 1 had the elite missions which were best done as guilds Sylv… I don’t think I’ve ever really seen urgoz/the deep pugged usually it was groups of friends or guilds doing it… Anyway the point is they both had skins that were unique to those areas so I don’t think you should completely dismiss what he’s suggesting… I mean they could always add underworld/fow/urgoz/the deep in future updates as 8-10 player instances… Honestly I kinda hope they do but are a bit smarter about it then they have been with the current dungeons…

Only time will tell on that though…

Conwolv.4329:

(Reposted from my locked thread) (SNIP)

Totally agree with you here mate. Im in exactly the same boat. Really like the game but sadly the lack of challneging content for guilds put me and my guild mates off the game for good. This could have been our new main mmo but instead were still looking.

Sylv i understand where your coming from and your right. But this doesnt have to mean no raiding, it just means we need to look at raiding logically and fairly.

1) Dont offer rewards that are not available elsewhere in the game. Dungeon tokens could work, karma would also work.

2) Dont gate content, when designing your raids make them extensions of current game mechanics. So either 10, 20, 25 person versions of current dungeons or current elite Dynamic events that are instanced and tuned for 10, 20, 25 people.

Examples are a raid version of sorrows embrace or a raid version of the shadow behemoth.

3) Dont put the whole game focus on raids. Make sure there is plently of other content for the people who dont want to raid. Basically release a raid whenever you release a dungeon or some new dynamic events.

As for guild vs guild that wont fix anything as its not pvp we want, its pve. Right now though this game offers a little distraction for me when I want to be my major MMO.

Dakiaris.2798:

Guild wars 1 had the elite missions which were best done as guilds Sylv… I don’t think I’ve ever really seen urgoz/the deep pugged usually it was groups of friends or guilds doing it…

The cap was 8, though, not 20. I don’t think I’d even have a problem with ten-man deals.

Ubung— I’d have less issue with that, because the armor/rewards would be available to everyone without requiring 20 people.

The cap for urgoz and the deep was 12 not 8… uw and fow were both 8 though.

Dakiaris.2798:

The cap for urgoz and the deep was 12 not 8… uw and fow were both 8 though.

Shows you how long it’s been since I’ve been there. z.z

They were kinda meh because you HAD to use a gould group or a group of friends it wasn’t exactly friendly with the difficulty either you had to use spacific builds which honestly were boarderline exploits to complete…. This was nerfed later on so any build could use it but that’s what kept those 2 elite dungeons from getting much use… The skins also were a mix bag some looked great while others looked like crap so the time/reward payout wasn’t exactly good…. It’s like the dungeons in gw2!!!!! Lots of time no payout X-D

Well, there you go. No big raids. >:|