Guild Wars 2

I’m perfectly ok with making everything in the "raid" available outside of the raid as well. Offering them from doing related content (5 man side stories related to the raid storyline gives tokens to buy that dungeon set).

As for content being exclusive, it’d still be far harder to craft a legendary than it would be to get 10-20 players together a few times a week and get a dungeon set. There’d likely be lots of pugs going on like there are now for 5 man content.

It just seems that ArenaNet really built the game for everyone BUT the raider. Literally, everything else is in the game and designed better than other MMOS, but raids. Just seems short sighted.

I hope with future content that ArenaNet gets past their dislike of raiding in other games to give us their version of it in this one.

Just seems without it, the game is incomplete. Which makes me sad.

Honestly I’ll probably be keeping my WoW around for raiding, I suggest the same for you. I hope this game comes out with some sort of end game for PvErs, though.

I personally play Rift and SWTOR (the community in WoW has gotten so terrible). I’ll continue to play those for raiding until something comes long in GW2 that fits that bill. I’d love to just give up on those games entirely, but just cant justify it without some serious endgame inclusions in GW2.

Conwolv.4329:

I’m perfectly ok with making everything in the “raid” available outside of the raid as well. Offering them from doing related content (5 man side stories related to the raid storyline gives tokens to buy that dungeon set).

As for content being exclusive, it’d still be far harder to craft a legendary than it would be to get 10-20 players together a few times a week and get a dungeon set. There’d likely be lots of pugs going on like there are now for 5 man content.

It just seems that ArenaNet really built the game for everyone BUT the raider. Literally, everything else is in the game and designed better than other MMOS, but raids. Just seems short sighted.

I hope with future content that ArenaNet gets past their dislike of raiding in other games to give us their version of it in this one.

Just seems without it, the game is incomplete. Which makes me sad.

Glad you agree. Really its mainly about the content rather than the rewards. As an added bonus of this though it makes old raids not obsolete. One really silly thing with WoW is that earlier raids become useless. At 80 i am locked off from doing Karazhan, no matter how much i want too i cant go back there and get the same challenge as before.

Conwolv.4329:

As for content being exclusive, it’d still be far harder to craft a legendary than it would be to get 10-20 players together a few times a week and get a dungeon set

No, it’s not harder. That is why raiders are such a small minority, because getting 20 people with various lives and obligations is a pain. That’s why most games, WoW included, have been moving toward the ten-man system instead. Even ANet saw the problem after its own versions in GW1.

Sylv.5324:

Conwolv.4329:

As for content being exclusive, it’d still be far harder to craft a legendary than it would be to get 10-20 players together a few times a week and get a dungeon set

No, it’s not harder. That is why raiders are such a small minority, because getting 20 people with various lives and obligations is a pain. That’s why most games, WoW included, have been moving toward the ten-man system instead. Even ANet saw the problem after its own versions in GW1.

I’ll agree with this. While some people still do 25m raiding in WoW I find it totally unnecessary and annoying. Kudos to people who pull it off but I don’t think it’s really what this game needs.

If they came out with 10m raiding for Gw2 I would personally be very happy.

With guilds and groups being cross-server, and the fact you can join more than one, I dont see any trouble getting 20 players together for a story-mode fairly easy.

10 and 20 are probably the two best numbers to shoot for. Its not like it would take much more to add a 20 man once youve added a 10 man even though it would be the 10 man my guild would go for. Would still be nice to have the option.

I’m ok with 10 man, but make larger groups available for those who want to do them. Nothing extra for doing it, just more inclusive.

I really hope that ANet sticks with their stated views on raids.

And just not have them? You talk a lot about being excluded, but by not having this content, a lot of players who would play this game regularly simply move on rather than sticking around to enjoy the story and expanded content. By not having one specific type of content, that’s excluding that type of player from the game.

That seems to be counterintuative to AN’s end-goal in the game for it to be a community game that all types of MMO players can enjoy.

If there’s nothing gained from the raids that you cant get outside of it, what’s your problem with it Sylv?

Conwolv.4329:

If there’s nothing gained from the raids that you cant get outside of it, what’s your problem with it Sylv?

I’ve already listed several of my problems with it, and in this case, I would like ANet to stick with its view of large raids: that they are not necessary in GW2.

Conwolv.4329:

That seems to be counterintuative to AN’s end-goal in the game for it to be a community game that all types of MMO players can enjoy.

ANet has never said this, so far as I know.

Most I can find is that they said they dont want it to feel like a grind to get there. Which I agree with but I’m sure they could make it unique somehow.

There’s plenty of grinds for 5 man content. I just don’t see why exclude one specific type of player. I haven’t yet seen a good reason for the exclusion that couldn’t easily be resolved with some ArenaNet love.

Sylv.5324:

Conwolv.4329:

If there’s nothing gained from the raids that you cant get outside of it, what’s your problem with it Sylv?

I’ve already listed several of my problems with it, and in this case, I would like ANet to stick with its view of large raids: that they are not necessary in GW2.

I covered most of your issues within my post. Enabling you to safely ignore the raiders and do your own thing. So what else is it thats bothering you about raiding? Id like to know so we can figure out a compromise to keep everyone happy.

Braggo.7819:

Although i have had GW2 since the first beta i haven’t played much as i have a WoW subscription. Im looking to cancel WoW and using GW2 as my MMO and playing alot of other single player games.

What is the end game like here? from what i can see it is mainly PvP based as i havent heard of raids other than the world boss style of things.

Do you Queue for instances or is it finding your own group? as finding your own group sounds difficult.

Is the “lack of players” i heard about troubling or just people talking crap?

Finally i am mainly a pve player so does this game suit me or do i need to be a pvper?

sorry the the wall of text and questions.

First of all the majority of posts in this thread are going to be negative from a minority that is spitful for whatever reason so keep that in mind.

There are plenty of things to do just not in the traditional sense of raid night is sat night, login raid then stand in stormwind and level alts.

GW2 has many achievements to get.
Work on getting your legendary weapon which requires alot of time and pve. (100% world completion for one)
Dungeons… well theres lots of them and you can find a group for any of them using www.gw2lfg.com.
You farm dungeons for tokens for gear specific to the dungeon similar to WoW.
Fractals of the mist introduced a new tier of gear (ascended gear one step higher then exotic) heres some info on obtaining those items and fractal skins.
http://dulfy.net/2012/11/17/gw2-ascended-gear-and-infusion-recipes/

Theres other stuff to do as well but those are the main things.

People here just like to complain for the sake of complaining really. Take my post and theirs with a grain of salt. Because they are nothing but opinions.

Namu, I appreciate all of those things, and I do enjoy them. But I also enjoy my guild and doing content with them. Not just 4 others, but a larger group of them. We like to challenge ourselves and work as a unit to conquer PVE content.

All of those things you mentioned are good for the individual player. But very little of it fills the gap left from leaving another game you used to raid in for a guild in PVE.

It’s the act alone of doing large group content that is missing. Not the number of available alternate activities.

Conwolv.4329:

Namu, I appreciate all of those things, and I do enjoy them. But I also enjoy my guild and doing content with them. Not just 4 others, but a larger group of them. We like to challenge ourselves and work as a unit to conquer PVE content.

All of those things you mentioned are good for the individual player. But very little of it fills the gap left from leaving another game you used to raid in for a guild in PVE.

It’s the act alone of doing large group content that is missing. Not the number of available alternate activities.

Well cant argue that but, what says you have to go into a instanced part of the world with 20 people to be considered something to do?

Could you not full-fill that with world events and such all the same in GW2? There are several very challenging world boss’s that most pugs cant kill as it is.

Your looking for X to replace X. When there is no X but X is substituted for Y which is equal to X.

If I want to play with a large number of guildmates we go do world events or go do WvW. You still get that play with your guildies just a different way.

WoW is really the only mmo built around progressive raiding…. your not gonna find that here or anywhere else really… as im sure you are well aware of. Maybe in the future possibly… but lets not forget WoW has 7 years on GW2 lol. And they are different games with different ways of doing things. WoW is centered almost soley around Dungeons and raids and the gear thats pretty much all WoW is about. Why not play both? I know many people that login to WoW once a week raid and thats that for their game play in WoW.

Sylv.5324:

No, it’s not harder. That is why raiders are such a small minority, because getting 20 people with various lives and obligations is a pain.

That excuse just doesn’t hold water.

What about bowling leagues? What about poker night? What about going to the movies? They all require planning ahead for what amounts to leisure time with friends – no different here.

Zeldain.5710:

Sylv.5324:

No, it’s not harder. That is why raiders are such a small minority, because getting 20 people with various lives and obligations is a pain.

That excuse just doesn’t hold water.

What about bowling leagues? What about poker night? What about going to the movies? They all require planning ahead for what amounts to leisure time with friends – no different here.

Ya but bowling and poker nights dont result in 4 hours of time or more lol.

Bowling or poker nights can often be family events as well…. bit of a difference m8.

Apples to apples shall we.

I don’t have 20 RL friends that want to spend 1+ hours online in a game…. they however would not have a problem spending 1+ hours at a movie, dinner, or other social events.

Namu.5712:

Well cant argue that but, what says you have to go into a instanced part of the world with 20 people to be considered something to do?

Because for team play and guild progression, that’s the only way to test the true skill and knowledge of the team – in a controlled environment without outside influences. That way, all guilds are measured on the same playing field.

We don’t need "progressive" raiding. All I’m asking for is dungeons along the same lines as the ones we have now that allow 10-20 players to run them. Rewards don’t need to be anything special.

World content is fine, but frankly the interference of other players tends to make it feel too chaotic.

As for WvW, I love that. But most of my guild does not. So it’s not a viable subsitute to raiding.

Just because there’s lot of things you can do "instead of" raiding or "kind of like" raiding, doesn’t mean that they can’t put it in later on down the road. The post I made was a plea to AN to include a group of players who feel like it’s missing something from this amazing game and without it, aren’t enjoying the post-leveling game as much as other subpar games.

It is a missed opportunity on ArenaNet’s part. Something they could easily include in the future. If done right, wouldn’t impact non-raiding players at all.

Zeldain.5710:

Sylv.5324:

No, it’s not harder. That is why raiders are such a small minority, because getting 20 people with various lives and obligations is a pain.

That excuse just doesn’t hold water.

What about bowling leagues? What about poker night? What about going to the movies? They all require planning ahead for what amounts to leisure time with friends – no different here.

As soon as you get out of high school, planning something with 20 friends, let alone every few days/once a week, for several hours, is a pain in the butt. People have jobs, spouses, kids, illnesses, etc.

I’ve been in big raiding guilds and pvp guilds, and it just kept turning into a logistical nightmare after a while as people started getting older and having lives.

Conwolv.4329:

We don’t need “progressive” raiding. All I’m asking for is dungeons along the same lines as the ones we have now that allow 10-20 players to run them. Rewards don’t need to be anything special.

World content is fine, but frankly the interference of other players tends to make it feel too chaotic.

As for WvW, I love that. But most of my guild does not. So it’s not a viable subsitute to raiding.

Just because there’s lot of things you can do “instead of” raiding or “kind of like” raiding, doesn’t mean that they can’t put it in later on down the road. The post I made was a plea to AN to include a group of players who feel like it’s missing something from this amazing game and without it, aren’t enjoying the post-leveling game as much as other subpar games.

It is a missed opportunity on ArenaNet’s part. Something they could easily include in the future. If done right, wouldn’t impact non-raiding players at all.

Well I think stamping your reason that you need them in order to feel like you can do things with a large portion of your guild is whats hurting your arguement here.

Its much easier and concrete to simply say I want bigger dungeons that require 10-20 people working together to beat because its much more challenging then the current offerings. That is a true statement.

What is not a true statement is throwing the whole bit about you cant do things with your guild because X isn’t in the game.

Sylv.5324:

Zeldain.5710:

Sylv.5324:

No, it’s not harder. That is why raiders are such a small minority, because getting 20 people with various lives and obligations is a pain.

That excuse just doesn’t hold water.

What about bowling leagues? What about poker night? What about going to the movies? They all require planning ahead for what amounts to leisure time with friends – no different here.

As soon as you get out of high school, planning something with 20 friends, let alone every few days/once a week, for several hours, is a pain in the butt. People have jobs, spouses, kids, illnesses, etc.

I’ve been in big raiding guilds and pvp guilds, and it just kept turning into a logistical nightmare after a while as people started getting older and having lives.

But a guild is just that – a group of like-minded people with interests and abilities similar to your own. So, chances are if you join a guild, they’re going to be of the mindset that it’s ok to plan an online event for 4 hours on Thursday nights.

Zeldain.5710:

Sylv.5324:

Zeldain.5710:

Sylv.5324:

No, it’s not harder. That is why raiders are such a small minority, because getting 20 people with various lives and obligations is a pain.

That excuse just doesn’t hold water.

What about bowling leagues? What about poker night? What about going to the movies? They all require planning ahead for what amounts to leisure time with friends – no different here.

As soon as you get out of high school, planning something with 20 friends, let alone every few days/once a week, for several hours, is a pain in the butt. People have jobs, spouses, kids, illnesses, etc.

I’ve been in big raiding guilds and pvp guilds, and it just kept turning into a logistical nightmare after a while as people started getting older and having lives.

But a guild is just that – a group of like-minded people with interests and abilities similar to your own. So, chances are if you join a guild, they’re going to be of the mindset that it’s ok to plan an online event for 4 hours on Thursday nights.

In theory sure… in practice… not so much. There are very few guilds that can do that. And they are just that. A minority. Which is what he said in the first place.

Zeldain.5710:

But a guild is just that – a group of like-minded people with interests and abilities similar to your own. So, chances are if you join a guild, they’re going to be of the mindset that it’s ok to plan an online event for 4 hours on Thursday nights.

You can plan things, but when it’s dependent on that many people, something always goes wrong the next week and Joe and John and Jane are missing, and then next week it’s Matt and Bob and Broski, and on and on. Either the kid got sick or there’s a deadline or someone got boyfriend or wife aggro etc etc blarg.

Sylv.5324:

Zeldain.5710:

But a guild is just that – a group of like-minded people with interests and abilities similar to your own. So, chances are if you join a guild, they’re going to be of the mindset that it’s ok to plan an online event for 4 hours on Thursday nights.

You can plan things, but when it’s dependent on that many people, something always goes wrong the next week and Joe and John and Jane are missing, and then next week it’s Matt and Bob and Broski, and on and on. Either the kid got sick or there’s a deadline or someone got boyfriend or wife aggro etc etc blarg.

Thats how its been for me in many guilds when I played WoW. Raid night was once a week but something always went wrong, people couldn’t come or someone would start some drama etc etc.

Namu.5712:

Sylv.5324:

Zeldain.5710:

But a guild is just that – a group of like-minded people with interests and abilities similar to your own. So, chances are if you join a guild, they’re going to be of the mindset that it’s ok to plan an online event for 4 hours on Thursday nights.

You can plan things, but when it’s dependent on that many people, something always goes wrong the next week and Joe and John and Jane are missing, and then next week it’s Matt and Bob and Broski, and on and on. Either the kid got sick or there’s a deadline or someone got boyfriend or wife aggro etc etc blarg.

Thats how its been for me in many guilds when I played WoW. Raid night was once a week but something always went wrong, people couldn’t come or someone would start some drama etc etc.

In the PvP guilds, it was always drama. RBG team one poaching from 2, or team leader 2 getting mad at 1 for being given guild lead, or team leader 2 leaving the guild with half the players to start their OWN, and don’t let me get started about the one time with this throwndown between the dominatrixes and the guild leader caught between them and arrrrrrgh.

You’d wrangle out a new team after every crisis, but then a month later they’d drop after yet another guild split or someone would decide that you weren’t allowed to play this one class just because, and etc.

Whereas raid night, it was because the kid ate the dog and had to go to the hospital…

Namu.5712:

You can plan things, but when it’s dependent on that many people, something always goes wrong the next week and Joe and John and Jane are missing, and then next week it’s Matt and Bob and Broski, and on and on. Either the kid got sick or there’s a deadline or someone got boyfriend or wife aggro etc etc blarg.

Thats how its been for me in many guilds when I played WoW. Raid night was once a week but something always went wrong, people couldn’t come or someone would start some drama etc etc.[/quote]

In Lotro, I just stepped down as an officer of a guild that did extensive raiding. I enjoyed it a lot, and it was very difficult to leave. “Raids” in that game were 12 person runs of dungeons that lasted about an hour and half, each. Progression came in locks across multiple dungeons to reach more difficult dungeons (basically) and dungeons having 3 levels of completion (tier 1, tier 2, tier 2 with challenge.)

For a time were large enough that we could rotate personnel, to mostly keep things going for a weekends worth of raiding. However, that hit a real dip and it just became difficult to keep people together. So, for now I’m tired of being part of the struggle just to staff a run…. Anyway…

All that to say, raid time coordination works based on the rhythms of peoples lives and change drastically as time moves on. Sometimes it’s really easy, sometimes it’s like pulling teeth. But when it’s available, it can be a form of entertainment like no other. Not better, just very different. I’d certainly welcome that opportunity to be present in GW2.

Sylv,

My guild is fairly organized. We raid 3 nights a week and have a blast together. Sure, sometimes there’s some things that delay us, but it happens. Each guild handles situations like that differently.

Just because in some cases it’s logistically difficult to get people together, in others, not so much. Just depends on the people you’re with.

Just because in your experience you’ve had a harder time with it than others shouldn’t keep AN from building that type of content for those who can.

Namu,

I don’t think my reasoning hurts my argument all that much. While what you say does play a part in it, many of us just enjoy the group content (easy or hard) with my fellow guildies without others helping out. It’s hard to organize strategy in cases where you have 30 other players assisting.

WvW isn’t fun for a lot of my guild. Mostly because of a PVE background that we’re from. I personally enjoy it, and find it exciting. I’m part of another guild that does PVP a lot.

But if the argument that convinces AN that this content is desired by enough people that they put it in is that guilds want large group content that is more challenging, then so be it. I’d be happy with any instanced large group content that we can do.

Conwolv.4329:

Just because in your experience you’ve had a harder time with it than others shouldn’t keep AN from building that type of content for those who can.

ANet disagrees with you, and have said that they don’t want group size to be a barrier to experience all of GW2’s content (and rewards).

The current dynamic events, even the hardest dont offer the type of challenge raiders are after. What we need is more like make too many mistakes and you fail and have to start the boss again. Something that requires pinpoint teamwork and skill usage and avoidance. While DE’s are fun they just get zerged down by a bunch of people while you just whack at the boss.

Sylv.5324:

Conwolv.4329:

Just because in your experience you’ve had a harder time with it than others shouldn’t keep AN from building that type of content for those who can.

ANet disagrees with you, and have said that they don’t want group size to be a barrier to experience all of GW2’s content (and rewards).

We already mentioned how you dont have to gate the content to add raids. Use current elite DE’s or 5 man dungeons and just instance them and tune for 10 / 20 person. Reward dungeon tokens or karma, everyones wins.

Ubung.7423:

We already mentioned how you dont have to gate the content to add raids. Use current elite DE’s or 5 man dungeons and just instance them and tune for 10 / 20 person. Reward dungeon tokens or karma, everyones wins.

I’ve seen a lot of raiders not be satisfied by that, though. This topic was discussed a LOT before launch, and has since been. So it just creeps and creeps and then morphs into the usual wow-style raid anyway.

I agree world event difficulty is null in the face of the zerg. And ruins a group of players looking for a challenge to achieve that when the boss they are fighting is zerged down by 20+ random people.

Sylv.5324:

Ubung.7423:

We already mentioned how you dont have to gate the content to add raids. Use current elite DE’s or 5 man dungeons and just instance them and tune for 10 / 20 person. Reward dungeon tokens or karma, everyones wins.

I’ve seen a lot of raiders not be satisfied by that, though. This topic was discussed a LOT before launch, and has since been. So it just creeps and creeps and then morphs into the usual wow-style raid anyway.

Weve all seen plenty of people with misplaced ideas but not having something based on the fact that it could be abused is silly. I dont think its fair to penalise people for the small amount of people who ruin it for the others.

As long as its done right there is no reason not to offer something for the guilds out there that wanna play this game. It would add people to the game and more people = more revenue.

Ubung.7423:

As long as its done right there is no reason not to offer something for the guilds out there that wanna play this game. It would add people to the game and more people = more revenue.

I understand that you are adamantly for it, and I understand some of your reasons, but I am adamantly against it. Fortunately for either of us, it’s ANet who will decide to add them or not, so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Yes, I get that ArenaNet disagrees with me. That’s the whole point of this line of topics. To try to convince them that there’s ways to do this without completely ignoring that type of gameplay.

Rather than say "no no no!" how about find solutions that doesn’t tread on your gameplay but allow us the types of content many of us crave?

Solutions are always better than exclusions.

I don’t see any reason why raid content couldn’t be added.

Take the last dungeon for example… currently you run through with 5 people and a handful of npc’s to fight the biggest bad in the game….. there is no reason why that couldn’t be a raid. Instead you have NPC’s doing the helping…. seems kinda RPGish in the grand scheme of things.

Or they could scale up fractals to support 10-15 people instead, have different mechanics, same loot but different mechanics made to challenge a larger group.

Sylv.5324:

Ubung.7423:

As long as its done right there is no reason not to offer something for the guilds out there that wanna play this game. It would add people to the game and more people = more revenue.

I understand that you are adamantly for it, and I understand some of your reasons, but I am adamantly against it. Fortunately for either of us, it’s ANet who will decide to add them or not, so we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Yup agree to disagree. I just wonder why you think Anet who managed to evolve pretty much everything else in the genre would screw up raids so badly.

Namu.5712:

I agree world event difficulty is null in the face of the zerg. And ruins a group of players looking for a challenge to achieve that when the boss they are fighting is zerged down by 20+ random people.

Namu.5712:

I don’t see any reason why raid content couldn’t be added.

Thank you.

[quote=1128729;Zeldain.5710:]

Conwolv.4329:

Rather than say “no no no!” how about find solutions that doesn’t tread on your gameplay but allow us the types of content many of us crave?

Solutions are always better than exclusions.

I would rather ANet spend its limited time and budget on a few things that it (eventually) does very well, instead of struggling to find compromises that generally only frustrate almost everyone (fractals and ascended gear being one example).

In my case, I think that ANet was correct in excluding instanced raids, and for various reasons that I’m not going to argue further here. This is probably the one big issue where I will actively vote with my dollars.

I understand that you may find my response frustrating, but as I said to dudebro above, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Sylv.5324:

Honestly I can’t believe they didn’t even do this with open world content... Why isn’t there a "Claw of The Shatterer" dagger I can get ONLY by killing him?

I believe that ANet, in the beginning, wanted content to be for everyone. But plans change, promises are broken or denied ever being made, and now there are fractals, the endless grind, DR, any hope that ever existed has been trapped in a jar at the bottom of some bottomless void somewhere....

Ubung.7423:

Yup agree to disagree. I just wonder why you think Anet who managed to evolve pretty much everything else in the genre would screw up raids so badly.

My problem isn’t with ANet.

Sylv.5324:

Ubung.7423:

Yup agree to disagree. I just wonder why you think Anet who managed to evolve pretty much everything else in the genre would screw up raids so badly.

My problem isn’t with ANet.

Well since you dont want to share exactly why it is you dont want raiding then I cant tell you a way to make it not effect you. So far the only one that cant be fully argued is dev time taken which tbh is up to Anet to decide whats best. Were just requesting something, they decide whether what were asking for is valid.

I know. I just feel it’s important to let them know that I like it the way it is.

You’d think that making the game more inclusive would be something that everyone wants. More players = more success for ArenaNet.

Saying "We want everyone to play our game! But not you people. You can keep playing WoW instead" seem counterintuative.

We’re looking for solutions, but you (Sylv) only seem to want to keep those players from enjoying the same game you enjoy. Adding this additional content in a way that it doesn’t affect you in any way seems like it’s possible, but you’re still against it.

It’s that kind of single-minded opposition without room for compromise that makes people want to play elsewhere.

There’s plenty of room for everyone. Why not allow it?

Sylv.5324:

Conwolv.4329:

Just because in your experience you’ve had a harder time with it than others shouldn’t keep AN from building that type of content for those who can.

ANet disagrees with you, and have said that they don’t want group size to be a barrier to experience all of GW2’s content (and rewards).

There is a missed opportunity to provide team-minded players something to do in an otherwise awesome game world.

If they provided 20 man “instanced” versions of world events, with loot specific to it (no better mind you, simply “Claw of the Shatterer” style loot) why does it matter? You can still see the content, but if you want to field a team to take on the tougher version and get more exclusive rewards, you’d be able to .

This would be a win-win for this game IMO.

If they would just explore the idea and try different ways to include this type of content for the types of players who seek this in order to make this their primary game, I would be happy.

I trust that ArenaNet of all developers would be able to find a way to include this and attract those players while not impeding the playstyle of other players at all.