Guild Wars 2

Q: When most people hear "MMO" they think "grind". You need to grind your to the levels by killing monsters and it’s boring. So, how do you plan to avoid this boring grind in GW2?

A: One thing we are fighting hardest against is grind. We don’t want the player to ever have to grind and do something they don’t want to do to progress in the game. As mentioned before, we have a wide variety of things we can do. If you are really in story then you can follow your personal story. If you want to experience events with all the people you have the DE, you can do PvP all the way through the game. At any point of the game you will have a choice of picking whatever you want to do and that’s how we fight grind.

Well, I suppose we’re not "grinding" for stuff now - right?

Q: You said you want to make GW2 a lot like a single player RPG game. If I am a solo player and I’d like to play alone, how far into the game can I get without grouping with other guys?

A: We want the vast majority of the time you play in-game to be available to a solo player, completed by a solo player. We don’t want you to feel punished because you don’t have friends to run around with every time. That said, we do have a lot of content that is group oriented like there are certain very difficult events that will require a group with good team work to get through. Similarly, dungeons will be group oriented. But as a single player I wouldn’t be worried about not being able to get through content, you should be able to get through most everything.

Really?? Hmmm... last I checked, many ppl were complaining about not being able to complete their personal story solo due to one issue or another...

: I know you guys are focused on finishing the original game but I would like to know how are you going to handle the character progress after the release? Is the original game going to have some cap set on items/attributes, just like in GW1, or will we be growing in power as the content is added (DLC, expansions) and the maximum level will increase?

A: So, the maximum level in GW2 will be level 80 on the initial release of the game. And I’m sure as we add expansion content we’re going to add more progression and add more levels to the game. However right now we are really focused on getting the release of Guild Wars 2, for core game to be done right, and we are putting all our effort into getting that put together.

And we’re not really thinking that much about what we’re going to do with expansions yet. We want to get the core GW 2 game amazing. And when we get that done, we will release it and we will sit down to figure out our plans for how are we going to tackle expansions from there.

I’m not sure where it states here vertical progression or they were going to add more armour... and OBVIOUSLY you’re going to progress in the game at some extent - everyone should remain at lvl 1??? People are supposed to progress in this game on the same plane, ergo, horizontal progression, as their surroundings and not become more - equal foothold. This is not the case and that is what upsets many ppl. If ppl wanted to play vertical progression based games, they can play rift, wow, tera, etc...

Q: I know you guys are focused on finishing the original game but I would like to know how are you going to handle the character progress after the release? Is the original game going to have some cap set on items/attributes, just like in GW1, or will we be growing in power as the content is added (DLC, expansions) and the maximum level will increase?

A: So, the maximum level in GW2 will be level 80 on the initial release of the game. And I’m sure as we add expansion content we’re going to add more progression and add more levels to the game. However right now we are really focused on getting the release of Guild Wars 2, for core game to be done right, and we are putting all our effort into getting that put together.
And we’re not really thinking that much about what we’re going to do with expansions yet. We want to get the core GW 2 game amazing. And when we get that done, we will release it and we will sit down to figure out our plans for how are we going to tackle expansions from there.

Vertical progression.

See the AMA links for how they felt about the decisions that resulted in grind.

Edit: Changed “to post” to “that resulted in grind.”

(responding to VP links)
So, the idea was possible progression by levelcap in expansions (not quite a promise, especially seeing how unclear that topic was/is). Quite different from doing it inbetween, after a few months, isn’t it?. Ontopic, one could argue in GW1 you had this too, through new skills – while these weren’t directly stronger, it usually did allow new, better builds; while you didn’t need to grind for your ideal build, you would grind for more possible variation. This seems more innovative to me – though I don’t have the MMO grind mindset perhaps.
Edit: I’ll agree I’m waiting for the decisions made based on the AMA. Though I’m skeptical, seeing how complicated the issue seems to be.

@OP GW’s known for innovation. So ironically, GW2 has to innovate not just from traditional MMOs but from GW1 as well, to hold up that reputation. I don’t agree with all their choices, but I’m happy they didn’t sit back and clone things.

Somewhat different. But that has already been explained in the MMA as something that they delayed from initial release. The point being… The argument that “You promised no vertical progression and then you added vertical progression, you are a bad evil liar” holds no water. Tired of seeing PR Spin from a set of players in this forum who seem to have an axe to grind that is not entirely related to ascendant gear.

JaironKalach It’s all crap dude. If I want to play a grind, I’ll play a Korean or Asian MMO (I’ve played a crap ton of those and actually waiting for their new one to come out) - they’re FAMOUS for that ROFLMMFAO!! Rift with it’s new xpac is borderline grind city and is REALLY getting on my nerves with that crap. Unfortunately, there aren’t too many great games out today on the market. This one has potential if the devs would leave it alone and fix their debacles with the drop rates. I find it odd that a team needs to "investigate" issues we have in game that takes weeks and weeks on end but yet when there’s the potential for an exploit, you’ll see that kitten patched within 24-72 hours. Funny how that is - no?

JaironKalach.4938:

Somewhat different. But that has already been explained in the MMA as something that they delayed from initial release. The point being... The argument that "You promised no vertical progression and then you added vertical progression, you are a bad evil liar" holds no water. Tired of seeing PR Spin from a set of players in this forum who seem to have an axe to grind that is not entirely related to ascendant gear.

But I like to grind axes - it keeps them sharp

mavet.3047:

JaironKalach It’s all crap dude. If I want to play a grind, I’ll play a Korean or Asian MMO (I’ve played a crap ton of those and actually waiting for their new one to come out) – they’re FAMOUS for that ROFLMMFAO!! Rift with it’s new xpac is borderline grind city and is REALLY getting on my nerves with that crap. Unfortunately, there aren’t too many great games out today on the market. This one has potential if the devs would leave it alone and fix their debacles with the drop rates. I find it odd that a team needs to “investigate” issues we have in game that takes weeks and weeks on end but yet when there’s the potential for an exploit, you’ll see that kitten patched within 24-72 hours. Funny how that is – no?

Not really. I’m perfectly aware that there are varying levels of complexity and risk in a bug that needs fixed. Easy fix, high-impact bugs/exploits will be fixed quickly. Usually things with a complex fix will be fixed slowly to give QA a proper shot at preventing a bug.

Some bugs are caused by totally unsuspected interaction. Some are caused by 1.0 being written as .10, and the poor dev reads the value 30 times before seeing it.

And lets not go through the silliness about how QA should have caught it and testing is poor, either.

If you don’t want to grind, don’t grind. Go do all the quests and jump puzzles. Work on all your achievements. Level your crafting. Do PvP…

But for the people who like progressive content, like dungeon farming, well they have the option.

If you read the quote about fighting grinds, it clearly, in very plain english says that the way they’re fighting the grind is by giving you other options of stuff to do. In no way does that mean that there’s no going to be a grind, just that you don’t have to be part of it if you don’t want to.

GW1 was boring. Hit 20, finish story mode and nothing really to do.

Dead.7385:

GW1 was boring. Hit 20, finish story mode and nothing really to do.

You could play the mini game “Build Wars CCG” err I mean acquire and cap skills ;-)

Ditton.3149:

Dead.7385:

GW1 was boring. Hit 20, finish story mode and nothing really to do.

You could play the mini game “Build Wars CCG” err I mean acquire and cap skills ;-)

Yeah, that and building and discovering new builds was plenty of fun. I think the cap at 20 was an amazing decision with GW1’s system. Even though I was completing the same content on my alts, it stayed fun because there was just a lot of builds to experiment with. That distinct differences in enemy compositions mandated a change in build and thinking was a major enjoyment contributor.

Rather, in GW2, I have to get to level 80 before I can experiment with various builds. And thusly, the process of getting there just became a chore instead.

Rukia.4802:

Chriswck.6490:

Speaking of classic GW1 builds such as Touch Rangers, just to bring back some memories, recall:

55 monk
SF sins
B/P rangers!! (almost forgot about that one)
CoF/VoR Mesmers
VoS Derv Runners
Charge War Runners
SH/SF eles
SS/SV/orders necros
MM necros back when there is no limit to minions concurrently alive
Mending Warriors
Apply Poison/Burning Arrow Condi rangers
Trapper Rangers
LoS/Infuse Health monks before LoS nerf
…

Oh man, now that i’m thinking back. Skills used to be interesting, and given thought could form new decent builds. While most of such builds aren’t the best, and eventually fall out, they are a lot of fun

Don’t forget Ranger thumpers, backbreaker sins, shockaxe wars, boneti’s WoH monks, and the other thousand builds we could use. Haha I remember the days you could get away with running 55 monk in AB and be a god because they were all noobs.

I also made a 55 sin once, yea you heard right.

Don’t forget 55 Rit and Rt/A dagger build.

So fun to make builds

Chriswck.6490:

Ditton.3149:

Dead.7385:

GW1 was boring. Hit 20, finish story mode and nothing really to do.

You could play the mini game “Build Wars CCG” err I mean acquire and cap skills ;-)

Yeah, that and building and discovering new builds was plenty of fun. I think the cap at 20 was an amazing decision with GW1’s system. Even though I was completing the same content on my alts, it stayed fun because there was just a lot of builds to experiment with. That distinct differences in enemy compositions mandated a change in build and thinking was a major enjoyment contributor.

Rather, in GW2, I have to get to level 80 before I can experiment with various builds. And thusly, the process of getting there just became a chore instead.

One million times this.

Why play the game when you can not have fun playing the game until you play enough to play the game?

tonyl.5063:

If you don’t want to grind, don’t grind. Go do all the quests and jump puzzles. Work on all your achievements. Level your crafting. Do PvP…

But for the people who like progressive content, like dungeon farming, well they have the option.

If you read the quote about fighting grinds, it clearly, in very plain english says that the way they’re fighting the grind is by giving you other options of stuff to do. In no way does that mean that there’s no going to be a grind, just that you don’t have to be part of it if you don’t want to.

The difference for me being that there is no fun way to grind in GW2.

I ground Feathers for days on end to get my max-level armor in GW1 (think zoning in, killing mobs, zoning out), yet it was infinitely more fun than anything I’ve done in GW2 simply because I BUILT THE SKILL BAR.

I found a combination of skills that worked to farm feathers in a given area in the game. The skill system in GW1 was the reason I played it for years.

You say there are many options in GW2, yet with any of these options you are limited by a small pool of active skills and a boring tree of passive skills that replaced the wide variety of active skills from GW1.

ZZZ.

I feel like I’m playing D3 all over again.

The bigest joke in GW2 is the “play your own way”

Play a conditions based warrior with axes/greatsword – unlikely
Play a single element elementalist – if you want to be rubish
Use mostly heal skills – nope
Not use elite skills – you waste a slot
Want to be non-condition thief – tough luck
Ranger without pets – wasting the class skill
Play a warrior and use the off hand weapon’s boost – nope
Play a real support character/healer or tank – nope, we removed the trinity
Have a choice of which slots to put weapon skills – fat chance.
Want to run more than 3 utility skills – nope
Want to run without a heal skill – sorry
Want to solo – sure but you will need to avoid half the game
and 100s of other things you cant play because of the inherant limitations.
Sure the skill system of GW1 would have been tough to keep balanced but it was well worth the effort.

I’m guessing people dont want GW2 for the most part to be the same as GW1 (we do want something new), however the playing of GW2 is more like Warhammer online or Rifts (both taking a hand from WoW) than GW1. Sure you get a little more choice than other mmos but coming from the predecessor game (GW1) you have very little choice in comparison.
The cop out that GW1 wasnt an MMO is a joke because that what it is generally classified as since its release (because you could have 100s of characters in the one place at the same time, not just looking at some UI). Thats kinda like saying Half-life wasn’t an FPS because it had a cohesive story.

Loswaith.3829:

The bigest joke in GW2 is the “play your own way”

….
….

I want an instant kill button. I mean it said I could play your own way! Where is my instant kill button!

Ohh I also want a button to summon 100 gold! It said I could “Play your own way”, so that obviously means I don’t have to worry about in game gold at all!

Also where are my guns! I want guns and 360lolz no scopes, cause “Play your own way” said so.

All i can say is – when it’s ready –

This quote made me laugh:

• “In gw1 we had dungeons that required skill and dungeons which required less skill for those who wanted to run them due to casual player skill.”

I love how this last decade has raised children to think “Skill” has a set meaning, that only groups have it, and anyone not in a group has “Less to no skill” too funny. These same children are raised to think MMO means “Must group”, also humorous.

Dead.7385:

Loswaith.3829:

The bigest joke in GW2 is the “play your own way”

….
….

I want an instant kill button. I mean it said I could play your own way! Where is my instant kill button!

Ohh I also want a button to summon 100 gold! It said I could “Play your own way”, so that obviously means I don’t have to worry about in game gold at all!

Also where are my guns! I want guns and 360lolz no scopes, cause “Play your own way” said so.

GW1 did fairly much let you “Play your own way”, you had a good choice of skills and options to create a build that worked for you (within the confines of a game), you could happily even swap weapons even as an elementalist. So to expect some precedence of Guild Wars 2 to do the same isnt that far a strech given it’s a sequal game.

Aside from the instant kills bit all the other things you mentioned are there, you can summon 100 gold at the push of a button (or rather a few buttons) by buying gems, there are guns btw.

Though feel free to troll more.

stof.9341:

Except in WvW

Well WoW doesnt even have an equivalent so it cant be closer to it! but yeah you’re right WvW doesnt put everyone on the same playing field, the huge amount of players, NPC allies, Siege weapons as well as if you have a castle wall protecting you obviously create a huge bias

It’s easy in WoW too

Dont know how it is now cause I only played it at release but back then in the 2 weeks it took me to get to max level in Gw2 I would level up only 1 or 2 levels (near the end)! Gw2 was actually the only game in which I felt I was leveling too fast! hit level 80 while still doing level 60 content!

stof.9341:

What? NPCs that give a hand in story quests is hardly new….

Hmm it is new to me cause apart from gw1 or gw2 my experience with NPCs is they just ask you to go fight a war for them while they wait for you to return and I played a LOT of MMOs! Its not so much for the help! the game is easy as it is you dont really need the help, its more for realism! And in Gw2 its not just in the main story its everywhere! If an NPC needs something vital delivered, he doesnt simply entrust it to a total stranger, payment on delivery! you’re just a hired escort which makes a lot more sense!

*Gear gates no content
Except the new weapon skins that drop in high level fractals I guess.

hmm which new weapon skins drop just from high level fractals?

stof.9341:

Every single NPC is important …
Let’s not go that far XD …

hmm so merchants arent important? Even the ones that just stand there that just say one thing or another provide story and lore! take a simple one like two asura talking where one asura tells the other they’re going to build an unstoppable golem and the other asks what if it goes wrong. ohh it will have a switch in the back he’s told. It tells a lot about the asura in my opinion… how they are ambitious, how they claim stuff is a lot more than it really is, their ego, the way they. if you just hear such a statement without seeing who is saying it you’d immediately know its something an asura would say because it all adds to the identity of the race! it has value!

stof.9341:

Crafting thats actually meaningful
A lot of MMOs have meaningful crafts too… In GW2, currently with the material prices, crafting is becoming less and less relevant. With the new BiS rings, jewelry crafting already lost 1/3 of it’s uses. The back pieces are 100% non crafting too.

Well dont know if this has changed in WoW but at launch Crafting was really pointless! spend a lot of time leveling it up to craft stuff I could use and within 5 mins each time, without missing out a single time I would get a better drop! every single time! Not so in Gw2, if you’re a crafter you can get all the stuff you could ever need through crafting! But yes not exclusive to Gw2, never said it was!
Actually back pieces are craftable too now through mystical forge.

stof.9341:

Heck, I’m 400 in crafts and I bought my sets from the trading post because I’d get more money selling the mats and buying the already crafted items instead!

And thats the beauty of it, flexibility to get the stuff the way you want ! thats the freedom I spoke about! as someone who likes crafting I dont care that I could get whatever for cheaper, I care that I am using a set that I crafted myself!

stof.9341:

My objective is the get multiple of the best stat sets in the game. Currently I am very much forced into a specific content

Its just a temporary because Arenanet jumped the gun and introduced Ascended Armor in one avenue. Eventually that will change! That being said what you said isnt entirely true! if you craft ascended items including infusions you need materials not found in FoTM as well!

stof.9341:

It’s not viable. Any place that doesn’t include mostly level 77+ monsters is really suboptimal …

It also happens to be easier but people seem to forget this thing called risk vs reward. Its funny though how on one hand you complain that as you say you’re forced to FoTM, one type of content but are quick to ignore all other content because its suboptimal! I hope you dont expect a game to have equal rewards everywhere because that’s essentially impossible! if Gw2 issued rewards based on your level alone guess what would happen? everyone farming the starter areas! why? because the events there are a lot quicker and a lot easier then say Orr. You cannot have it both ways I am afraid! if you cant enjoy playing anything thats suboptimal no matter what arenanet or any other game company will do you will always funnel yourself in playing the same content because thats the nature of the beast there will always be an optimal content to play and everything else will always be suboptimal!

Galen Grey.4709:

It also happens to be easier but people seem to forget this thing called risk vs reward. Its funny though how on one hand you complain that as you say you’re forced to FoTM, one type of content but are quick to ignore all other content because its suboptimal! I hope you dont expect a game to have equal rewards everywhere because that’s essentially impossible! if Gw2 issued rewards based on your level alone guess what would happen? everyone farming the starter areas! why? because the events there are a lot quicker and a lot easier then say Orr. You cannot have it both ways I am afraid! if you cant enjoy playing anything thats suboptimal no matter what arenanet or any other game company will do you will always funnel yourself in playing the same content because thats the nature of the beast there will always be an optimal content to play and everything else will always be suboptimal!

It’s not funny. I don’t want to “waste my time”. For me, doing stuff in Orr or any other place is the same. Well, not exactly the same, the new map and the Dredge heavy map in the Shiverpeaks are a LOT harder than Orr for no better reward actually. The level 1-15 maps might be ultra easy sure. But do you know the definition of “middle ground”? There’s a lot of room from “every single map in the game world drops useful stuff for a level 80 and events with worthy XP, Karma and Gold” to “only two maps in Orr, half of one map in the north and Lost Shores of Overtuned Mobs drops stuff useful for a level 80”

You find it funny I’m complaining of only doing FotM and dismiss the rest of the content as suboptimal? Well, why wouldn’t I? The rest of the content IS suboptimal and not that much fun to begin with. Whereas FotM is the only source of the best rings in the game, drops relics that can be used to buy the best back piece in the game whereas MFing the same would cost 70g. And second, you actually get OK money and drops in it which is enough by itself to get the rest of the best items. T6 fine mats? They drop there too. Lodestones and Cores? They drop there too whereas in open world you need to farm very specific mob types to get them.

Farming in low level maps? One T1 blood costs 25c. T6 blood costs 25s. By the time I’d get 100 T1 bloods I’d have hit the DR so much I’d have 10000 dry bones to sell. Might as well do it on level 77+ mobs and drop one blood in one hour or less or a dozen extra T5 (1.5s piece) for extras. Result : I got a lot more money for far less effort. Risk vs no reward currently?

GW1 managed it, I was playing all over the world doing every single map and they’d drop me level capped items and crafting mats and money worthy of a level 20 player.

mavet.3047:

Gee, I’m sorry. I and all the rest of the crap tons of posts on these forums and other gaming forums, yes, gw2 players play other games and have posted the kind of crap the devs pulled here over there, must all be wrong and hallucinating. The zone drops are exactly the same without any changes – correct?? I must be mistaken as well when the very best next tier of armour and weaps, which NCSoft/ANet LIED TO ALL OF US and said this WOULD NEVER HAPPEN, can ONLY BE FOUND in the new dungeon – right?? Or am I, and with the majority of ppl complaining about this, just wrong?? If so, please tell me and everyone else what we are missing. Thanks in advance

P.S. DR must be our imagination as well when using the mystic forge and in other areas of the game – correct??

actually yes. with all due respect you are wrong! What do you mean by the zones are the same without any changes? new events have been added to older maps
source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/october-2012-release-highlights

“The world continues to evolve with new events, jumping puzzles, bosses, mini-dungeons, and achievements appearing across a variety of maps.”

And we also got a brand new map in november!

You thought Ascended gear would never happen, Arenanet never told anyone anything about gear tiers! if I am mistaken and you have a source to the contrary please feel free to share but them not living up to your expectations isnt lieing!

Nope Ascended Gear isnt found only in FoTM You can craft some of it outside of FoTM in the mystical forge and only 1 ingredient can only be aquired to FoTM of which you just need 1 – 5

the rest you can get all over the place! and thats only a temporary thing! they already said the plan was all along to make Ascended aquirable just like any other tier through any activity save for sPvP!
source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/A-message-from-our-Studio-Design-Director-Chris-Whiteside/first#post721451

As well as the AmA

mavet.3047:

JaironKalach It’s all crap dude. If I want to play a grind, I’ll play a Korean or Asian MMO (I’ve played a crap ton of those and actually waiting for their new one to come out) – they’re FAMOUS for that ROFLMMFAO!! Rift with it’s new xpac is borderline grind city and is REALLY getting on my nerves with that crap. Unfortunately, there aren’t too many great games out today on the market. This one has potential if the devs would leave it alone and fix their debacles with the drop rates. I find it odd that a team needs to “investigate” issues we have in game that takes weeks and weeks on end but yet when there’s the potential for an exploit, you’ll see that kitten patched within 24-72 hours. Funny how that is – no?

Thing is you insist on a vertical playstyle you want to play horizontally!

A horizontal game isnt about having the best gear! aquiring the best gear is a vertical thing! A horizontal game is about playing any content in the game and you dont need the best gear for that in GW2!

This may sound cheesy but its part of the clever designed Arenanet employed to make a game thats both horizontal and vertical! Having masterworks / Rare gear is enough to play any content what so ever in GW2! That allows you to get everything else at your own pace without gating you out from anything!

with that in mind, you grind only if you yourself want to grind! I am serious, everything you need to get any kind of gear you can do playing multiple different types of content! You dont have to repeat the same content over and over again unless you want to! of course we get back to the previously mentioned problem though! you have to be willing to play suboptimal content and you have to be willing to take longer in order to aquire whatever gear you want! but there is no doubt you can play this game with nearly 0 grind if you really want to !

stayBlind.7849:

Chriswck.6490:

Ditton.3149:

Dead.7385:

GW1 was boring. Hit 20, finish story mode and nothing really to do.

You could play the mini game “Build Wars CCG” err I mean acquire and cap skills ;-)

Yeah, that and building and discovering new builds was plenty of fun. I think the cap at 20 was an amazing decision with GW1’s system. Even though I was completing the same content on my alts, it stayed fun because there was just a lot of builds to experiment with. That distinct differences in enemy compositions mandated a change in build and thinking was a major enjoyment contributor.

Rather, in GW2, I have to get to level 80 before I can experiment with various builds. And thusly, the process of getting there just became a chore instead.

One million times this.

Why play the game when you can not have fun playing the game until you play enough to play the game?

how is that true when you unlock all skill slots at level 35?

Thats not to mention that the main skills you’ll be using are the weapon skills which you can fully unlock all of them at level 2 or 3!

that together allows you to test out tons of different playstyles which you can call builds if you want! Gw2 is differnt to Gw1 in that your playstyle / build is determined more by how you use your skills then what skills you choose!

Graill.8596:

This quote made me laugh:

• “In gw1 we had dungeons that required skill and dungeons which required less skill for those who wanted to run them due to casual player skill.”

I love how this last decade has raised children to think “Skill” has a set meaning, that only groups have it, and anyone not in a group has “Less to no skill” too funny. These same children are raised to think MMO means “Must group”, also humorous.

There are better sub-genres of games for solo play.

Strongly encouraging social interaction in MMO’s is a good thing. Most games that have large amounts of longevity rely on social interaction, not just MMO’s; its something humans like to do.

edit: I don’t think your quote was inferring that casual players don’t have skill, my interpretation was people who play less are on average less skilled or have less knowledge about the game than those who play it more.

Saying there isn’t a skillgap between the average casual gamer who plays 5-10 hours a week and the average hardcore gamer who plays 50-100 hours a week is absurd. Designing content for both parties is not a bad idea.

Loswaith.3829:

The bigest joke in GW2 is the “play your own way”

Play a conditions based warrior with axes/greatsword – unlikely
Play a single element elementalist – if you want to be rubish
Use mostly heal skills – nope
Not use elite skills – you waste a slot
Want to be non-condition thief – tough luck
Ranger without pets – wasting the class skill
Play a warrior and use the off hand weapon’s boost – nope
Play a real support character/healer or tank – nope, we removed the trinity
Have a choice of which slots to put weapon skills – fat chance.
Want to run more than 3 utility skills – nope
Want to run without a heal skill – sorry
Want to solo – sure but you will need to avoid half the game
and 100s of other things you cant play because of the inherant limitations.
Sure the skill system of GW1 would have been tough to keep balanced but it was well worth the effort.

I’m guessing people dont want GW2 for the most part to be the same as GW1 (we do want something new), however the playing of GW2 is more like Warhammer online or Rifts (both taking a hand from WoW) than GW1. Sure you get a little more choice than other mmos but coming from the predecessor game (GW1) you have very little choice in comparison.
The cop out that GW1 wasnt an MMO is a joke because that what it is generally classified as since its release (because you could have 100s of characters in the one place at the same time, not just looking at some UI). Thats kinda like saying Half-life wasn’t an FPS because it had a cohesive story.

You do realise you just proved how actually gw2 is indeed play the way you like! Read your own list again dont you think it sounds funny? why would you want to limit yourself to things like:
Use mostly heal skills
or
Not use elite skills
or
Play a single element elementalist

Thats what other games force you to do!
if I am in engaged in combat and I end up biting more then I can chew I want to escape, that means interrupt, fear, cripple etc… in short Crowd Control!

If I am engaged in a fight that I am about to win but need to buy myself some more time or else I will die before I finish then I want to heal, regen, increase my survivability ! That means supporting myself, pets, minions or allies!

If I am in a fight that posses no danger to me I just want to get this done as quickly as possible, that means use might, set vulnerabiltiy on my enemies, spread conditions around! etc..

I could write a ton more of these suffice to say this is actually the strenght of GW2, this is the real play the way you want and this is actually one thing thats a massive improvement over Gw1 in Gw1 I had a huge skill pool that allowed me to build my character any way I wanted but alas all skills were so specialized I just had to commit to a build and while playing a zone I had no way of respecing meaning if I am geared towards damage and end up biting more then I could chew I might have the perfect build in mind how to deal with that situation but there is nothing I could do about it if thats not the build I took!

I love gw1, I love the skills system! but while you had a ton of options when creating the build you were completly boxed in once you got in the action with the choices you made! Gw2 on the other hand doesnt provide you with as much choices when creating the build but while in the action it leaves you free to change your playstyle and still be effective!

Loswaith.3829:

Dead.7385:

Loswaith.3829:

The bigest joke in GW2 is the “play your own way”

….
….

I want an instant kill button. I mean it said I could play your own way! Where is my instant kill button!

Ohh I also want a button to summon 100 gold! It said I could “Play your own way”, so that obviously means I don’t have to worry about in game gold at all!

Also where are my guns! I want guns and 360lolz no scopes, cause “Play your own way” said so.

GW1 did fairly much let you “Play your own way”, you had a good choice of skills and options to create a build that worked for you (within the confines of a game), you could happily even swap weapons even as an elementalist. So to expect some precedence of Guild Wars 2 to do the same isnt that far a strech given it’s a sequal game.

Aside from the instant kills bit all the other things you mentioned are there, you can summon 100 gold at the push of a button (or rather a few buttons) by buying gems, there are guns btw.

Though feel free to troll more.

Gw1 allowed you to create any build you wanted to play but then restricted you to the very strict boundaries of that build!

Gw2 on the other hand gives everyone a very generic build that do pretty much everything! only choose towards what role its primarily targeted on the upside then it allows you to play anyway you want cause unlike gw1 gw2 builds are very flexible and allow for pretty much any play style except for a few exceptions!

stof.9341:

You find it funny I’m complaining of only doing FotM and dismiss the rest of the content as suboptimal? Well, why wouldn’t I? The rest of the content IS suboptimal and not that much fun to begin with. Whereas FotM is the only source of the best rings in the game, drops relics that can be used to buy the best back piece in the game whereas MFing the same would cost 70g. And second, you actually get OK money and drops in it which is enough by itself to get the rest of the best items. T6 fine mats? They drop there too. Lodestones and Cores? They drop there too whereas in open world you need to farm very specific mob types to get them.

Actually no where will ever drop anything useful for your character! You’ll aquire things useful for your character long before you even get to the area that drops stuff useful for you! Thats the trade off you make with a horizontal progressive game! Drops are just a source of currency and materials nothing else!

But anyhow dont you see that FoTM was actually designed specifically with people such as you in mind? you choose reward over fun had there not be any FoTM introduced you’d have farmed Orr for ever experiancing no Variation, FoTM offers you that variation which will also increase as more fractals get added to it!

stof.9341:

Farming in low level maps? One T1 blood costs 25c. T6 blood costs 25s. By the time I’d get 100 T1 bloods I’d have hit the DR so much I’d have 10000 dry bones to sell. Might as well do it on level 77+ mobs and drop one blood in one hour or less or a dozen extra T5 (1.5s piece) for extras. Result : I got a lot more money for far less effort. Risk vs no reward currently?

Thats the difference between us, you make the game fit the reward, I make the reward fit the game! I dont want to play the most optimal content to get me to the reward I wish as quickly as possible! I want to play what I find fun and then use that to get what I want to aquire! in your example I wouldnt farm Either! I would explore do Dynamic events and then when I get enough money but the 100 fine crafting materials I want!

stof.9341:

GW1 managed it, I was playing all over the world doing every single map and they’d drop me level capped items and crafting mats and money worthy of a level 20 player.

How so ? If I needed say granite slabs I could farm say Sardelac Sanitarium solo in hardmode and gain maybe 30 – 50 slabs per 30 mins

Or I could say play Auspicious beginnings which will net me 3 platinum at least per 5 minutes which I can convert to a guaranteed 70 – 80 slaps!

Farming Sardelac Sanitarium will get me maybe 100 slabs per hour
Farming Auspicious beginnings will net me at least 840 slabs per hour

what happened now to sub optimal content does it somehow apply to gw2 but not gw1?

jairon commendable effort, everyone should read this and be real honest about the situation

Sorry but i hate to put this up but i really do have alot to say about this as well

Q: When most people hear “MMO” they think “grind”. You need to grind your to the levels by killing monsters and it’s boring. So, how do you plan to avoid this boring grind in GW2?

A: One thing we are fighting hardest against is grind. We don’t want the player to ever have to grind and do something they don’t want to do to progress in the game. As mentioned before, we have a wide variety of things we can do. If you are really in story then you can follow your personal story. If you want to experience events with all the people you have the DE, you can do PvP all the way through the game. At any point of the game you will have a choice of picking whatever you want to do and that’s how we fight grind.
(sourced from gw2guru)

1. they didn’t exactly mention WvsW being a grind for what it is; what i meant to reflect is that, Fractal = Ascension = partially a “Need” to outshine others in combat if you’d all agree (PVE based pvp).
so theoretically, anet seems to be well defended on this
2. personally i feel that, the message across the board is “if you are unhappy with an aspect in-game, move along do something else that u deem enjoyable”

Galen Grey.4709:

stayBlind.7849:

Chriswck.6490:

Ditton.3149:

Dead.7385:

GW1 was boring. Hit 20, finish story mode and nothing really to do.

You could play the mini game “Build Wars CCG” err I mean acquire and cap skills ;-)

Yeah, that and building and discovering new builds was plenty of fun. I think the cap at 20 was an amazing decision with GW1’s system. Even though I was completing the same content on my alts, it stayed fun because there was just a lot of builds to experiment with. That distinct differences in enemy compositions mandated a change in build and thinking was a major enjoyment contributor.

Rather, in GW2, I have to get to level 80 before I can experiment with various builds. And thusly, the process of getting there just became a chore instead.

One million times this.

Why play the game when you can not have fun playing the game until you play enough to play the game?

how is that true when you unlock all skill slots at level 35?

Thats not to mention that the main skills you’ll be using are the weapon skills which you can fully unlock all of them at level 2 or 3!

that together allows you to test out tons of different playstyles which you can call builds if you want! Gw2 is differnt to Gw1 in that your playstyle / build is determined more by how you use your skills then what skills you choose!

Traits, my friend. And the full 70 trait points!

I see your point. But I feel that since those builds are incomplete, they do not constitute being proper builds. If those sub-trait builds were in any point in time proper builds, then I would put in less than all 70 points to play that build. But the thing is, I wouldn’t!

Nevertheless, it’s good to know that the process of getting to 80 with regard to constructing builds is still enjoyable for you. Perhaps I got too accustomed to having all attribute points freely adjustable early, and had that expectation brought over to GW2.

Galen Grey.4709:

Gw1 allowed you to create any build you wanted to play but then restricted you to the very strict boundaries of that build!

Gw2 on the other hand gives everyone a very generic build that do pretty much everything! only choose towards what role its primarily targeted on the upside then it allows you to play anyway you want cause unlike gw1 gw2 builds are very flexible and allow for pretty much any play style except for a few exceptions!

You raise a valid point here. And I concur that the variety GW1 had in the form of a high number of skill choices manifests itself in the variety that skills can be used in GW2.

I have to admit, however, that the variety and versatility of GW2 skills (along with trait point distribution) that contribute to enjoyment does not match up for the sheer variety of skills in GW1 that contribute to the enjoyment in forming builds.

Remember the days when enemies were much more varied, and encounters were much more interesting? Each time we head into a new zone/mission, we have to think about the enemies that we will face, and bring the right skills and create corresponding builds to complete the challenges?
Contrarily, it is seldom required to change builds, nor adjust our usage/playstyle of our skills in GW2 much, when we enter different areas/dungeons.
Actually, that is probably more of a problem of homogenous enemies, rather than that of skills/build variety/versatility.

Chriswck.6490:

Galen Grey.4709:

stayBlind.7849:

Chriswck.6490:

Ditton.3149:

Dead.7385:

GW1 was boring. Hit 20, finish story mode and nothing really to do.

You could play the mini game “Build Wars CCG” err I mean acquire and cap skills ;-)

Yeah, that and building and discovering new builds was plenty of fun. I think the cap at 20 was an amazing decision with GW1’s system. Even though I was completing the same content on my alts, it stayed fun because there was just a lot of builds to experiment with. That distinct differences in enemy compositions mandated a change in build and thinking was a major enjoyment contributor.

Rather, in GW2, I have to get to level 80 before I can experiment with various builds. And thusly, the process of getting there just became a chore instead.

One million times this.

Why play the game when you can not have fun playing the game until you play enough to play the game?

how is that true when you unlock all skill slots at level 35?

Thats not to mention that the main skills you’ll be using are the weapon skills which you can fully unlock all of them at level 2 or 3!

that together allows you to test out tons of different playstyles which you can call builds if you want! Gw2 is differnt to Gw1 in that your playstyle / build is determined more by how you use your skills then what skills you choose!

Traits, my friend. And the full 70 trait points!

I see your point. But I feel that since those builds are incomplete, they do not constitute being proper builds. If those sub-trait builds were in any point in time proper builds, then I would put in less than all 70 points to play that build. But the thing is, I wouldn’t!

Nevertheless, it’s good to know that the process of getting to 80 with regard to constructing builds is still enjoyable for you. Perhaps I got too accustomed to having all attribute points freely adjustable early, and had that expectation brought over to GW2.

fair enough but then if you need all options available to you to consider a build complete, comparing like with like wouldnt that mean you have to have all skills unlocked in gw1 ? what about runes that provide additional attribute points, getting all the +3 runes to all the possible different primary and secondary attributes would take A LOT more then getting to level 20!

If you factor those two aspects of Gw1 it will take a lot longer then reaching level 80 in Gw2 I have a feeling before you have all the options open to you!

In my opinion a build is just a setup designed to work in synergy to get the best possible outcome!

At level 10 in gw1 you’re still missing a ton of stuff, skills, attributes, equipement etc.. yet you still had to form builds right?

Chriswck.6490:

Galen Grey.4709:

Gw1 allowed you to create any build you wanted to play but then restricted you to the very strict boundaries of that build!

Gw2 on the other hand gives everyone a very generic build that do pretty much everything! only choose towards what role its primarily targeted on the upside then it allows you to play anyway you want cause unlike gw1 gw2 builds are very flexible and allow for pretty much any play style except for a few exceptions!

You raise a valid point here. And I concur that the variety GW1 had in the form of a high number of skill choices manifests itself in the variety that skills can be used in GW2.

I have to admit, however, that the variety and versatility of GW2 skills (along with trait point distribution) that contribute to enjoyment does not match up for the sheer variety of skills in GW1 that contribute to the enjoyment in forming builds.

Remember the days when enemies were much more varied, and encounters were much more interesting? Each time we head into a new zone/mission, we have to think about the enemies that we will face, and bring the right skills and create corresponding builds to complete the challenges?
Contrarily, it is seldom required to change builds, nor adjust our usage/playstyle of our skills in GW2 much, when we enter different areas/dungeons.
Actually, that is probably more of a problem of homogenous enemies, rather than that of skills/build variety/versatility.

I have to agree with you here though dont think its just variety per se thats the problem, I just think the game over all is too easy! I can understand why this was necessary to integrate both horizontal and vertical progression that coupled with having to so much flexibility in how to play the game! its a bit of a double edge sword! in Gw1 if you were speced for DPS and you mishandled aggro you would die no way out most of the time! that meant when deciding on your build you would have to factor that in if you were going to play an area where it would be easy to aggro multiple mobs.

In Gw2 as long as you know what you’re doing mishandling aggro just means changing your playstyle to be a bit more on the defensive side ! Because of this It might end up trivializing enemy skill. Its easy to miss the fact enemies can dodge attacks you make, or wait until you used your interrupt before using a crucial skill or even using the right conditions against the right allies (crippling allies that are still at a distance rather then engaged in melee with them) when you still walk all over them as if it were nothing!

On the other side they cant just make the game harder because you have players who just treat the combat system casually like a bunch of skills that are to be spammed and players (myself included) who might not go for the best armor in the game!

Not everyone loves jumping games.
Not everyone is good at jumping games.
Not everyone has a system and connection that cater to jumping games.

And yet the game is full of them. I view this as faux difficulty in place of more interesting content. I’d prefer to see far less of them.

Keep the JPs and the special events – reduce the # needed for something simple like map completion. Some of the required jumps to get a vista are a royal PIA for those who hate this mechanic.

Galen Grey.4709:

fair enough but then if you need all options available to you to consider a build complete, comparing like with like wouldnt that mean you have to have all skills unlocked in gw1 ? what about runes that provide additional attribute points, getting all the +3 runes to all the possible different primary and secondary attributes would take A LOT more then getting to level 20!

If you factor those two aspects of Gw1 it will take a lot longer then reaching level 80 in Gw2 I have a feeling before you have all the options open to you!

In my opinion a build is just a setup designed to work in synergy to get the best possible outcome!

At level 10 in gw1 you’re still missing a ton of stuff, skills, attributes, equipement etc.. yet you still had to form builds right?

Good question, but GW2 will still take more time! >< If we also take into account of having complete equipment like what you just did by bringing runes into the equation, isn’t it even harder in GW2? Full exotics, with full set of superior runes, as well as the sigils…

“In my opinion a build is just a setup designed to work in synergy to get the best possible outcome! " – I’ll try to keep that in mind next time I start leveling to 80. It’s a nice way to look at it.

The +3 runes in GW1 were of 2 kind :
- ultra cheap because they had no use for this class ( +3 runes also carry a HEAVY HP loss penalty)
- expensive because the caster class could really make use of it despite the penalty, or even WITH the help of the penalty for low HP builds

More often than not, the +1 runes were used. Very few builds required using two +3 runes, more like one +3 and one or two +1. Or no +3 at all.

+1 runes were more common in the world so cheaper to get even if a lot more popular.

Chriswck.6490:

Galen Grey.4709:

fair enough but then if you need all options available to you to consider a build complete, comparing like with like wouldnt that mean you have to have all skills unlocked in gw1 ? what about runes that provide additional attribute points, getting all the +3 runes to all the possible different primary and secondary attributes would take A LOT more then getting to level 20!

If you factor those two aspects of Gw1 it will take a lot longer then reaching level 80 in Gw2 I have a feeling before you have all the options open to you!

In my opinion a build is just a setup designed to work in synergy to get the best possible outcome!

At level 10 in gw1 you’re still missing a ton of stuff, skills, attributes, equipement etc.. yet you still had to form builds right?

Good question, but GW2 will still take more time! >< If we also take into account of having complete equipment like what you just did by bringing runes into the equation, isn’t it even harder in GW2? Full exotics, with full set of superior runes, as well as the sigils…

“In my opinion a build is just a setup designed to work in synergy to get the best possible outcome! " – I’ll try to keep that in mind next time I start leveling to 80. It’s a nice way to look at it.

Dont know to be honest! it changes depends how you aquire them! and if you include skills in the equation then gw1 would take far longer without a doubt! anyway its just an academic question at the end of the day the important thing is their both great games with their own strenghts and weaknesses!

stof.9341:

The +3 runes in GW1 were of 2 kind :
- ultra cheap because they had no use for this class ( +3 runes also carry a HEAVY HP loss penalty)
- expensive because the caster class could really make use of it despite the penalty, or even WITH the help of the penalty for low HP builds

More often than not, the +1 runes were used. Very few builds required using two +3 runes, more like one +3 and one or two +1. Or no +3 at all.

+1 runes were more common in the world so cheaper to get even if a lot more popular.

Sure why not! but the same has to apply to Gw2 as well! you dont even need exotic gear to be effective and you dont need the runes either to be effective!

Galen Grey.4709:

Sure why not! but the same has to apply to Gw2 as well! you dont even need exotic gear to be effective and you dont need the runes either to be effective!

That’s not the same. I just said that the +3 runes were NOT always the most effective because they caused you to lose stats. Are you saying that you don’t need exotics because in some situations rares with their plain lower stats would be better? No they aren’t.

Also, in GW1 runes weren’t soulbound so any investment I made into them to temporarily get a bonus weaker than the one I wanted wasn’t wasted at all, except some small transfer fee. In GW2, buying an exotic set and scrapping it for ectos once you get the ascended set is a huge money loss. It’s not that bad for rare => exo though since rares are more or less as valuable as the ectos you can make out of them.

Galen Grey.4709:

Thing is you insist on a vertical playstyle you want to play horizontally!

A horizontal game isnt about having the best gear! aquiring the best gear is a vertical thing! A horizontal game is about playing any content in the game and you dont need the best gear for that in GW2!

This may sound cheesy but its part of the clever designed Arenanet employed to make a game thats both horizontal and vertical! Having masterworks / Rare gear is enough to play any content what so ever in GW2! That allows you to get everything else at your own pace without gating you out from anything!
snip

Switching sides for a second… While its true that Anet has not put in gear-based gating, it is not true that the community is not enforcing such gating. The second piece that will make “horizontal but not vertical” progression work is an LFG system that allows players to find other like-minded players. My dearest hope is that the do so, but until they do, the social pressure is as good as an actual gating mechanism.

JaironKalach.4938:

Galen Grey.4709:

Thing is you insist on a vertical playstyle you want to play horizontally!

A horizontal game isnt about having the best gear! aquiring the best gear is a vertical thing! A horizontal game is about playing any content in the game and you dont need the best gear for that in GW2!

This may sound cheesy but its part of the clever designed Arenanet employed to make a game thats both horizontal and vertical! Having masterworks / Rare gear is enough to play any content what so ever in GW2! That allows you to get everything else at your own pace without gating you out from anything!
snip

Switching sides for a second… While its true that Anet has not put in gear-based gating, it is not true that the community is not enforcing such gating. The second piece that will make “horizontal but not vertical” progression work is an LFG system that allows players to find other like-minded players. My dearest hope is that the do so, but until they do, the social pressure is as good as an actual gating mechanism.

I am certainly not against LFG, dont know why it wasnt there from the begining really!

Yes community gating is a problem that is outside of the developers control! now its true that the way FoTM is designed it makes the matter worst and by a lot! Luckly they’re somewhat addressing that by expanding levels into teirs makeing it easier to find a group! that is definitely part of the problem!

The worst part though in my opinion is player’s greed! not willing to run in a level 2 group even if one is available now but instead waiting to form a level 8 group because it just pays a bit more! Same thing excisted before FoTM even to a lesser extent you did see groups refusing to take in people in their party for AC if they were not level 80 for example! Its not really needed, a level 35 can do it just as much as a level 80 can but still people are people and even though the game makes an effort to be inclusive people throw all that away in the name of efficiency!

Thats an unfortuntate social problem! not sure there is much that can really be done about it!

You have a massively rose-tinted view of how GW1 was. Yes, it was great, but GW2 is no less awesome.

oney.5067:

in gw1 we had dungeons that required skill and dungeons which required less skill for those who wanted to run them due to casual player skill.

Did we? Certainly not at the start.
And even after EotN, dungeons had less range than in GW2; almost entirely easy, with a few really annoying points.

oney.5067:

our builds required skill.
it required skill to get some of the skills to make skillful builds.

Not even slightly true. Most builds tookittentle skill to figure out, even less to play. By the time we got heroes and wiki’d builds, it was a case of load up someone else’s build and let the heroes do most of the work while you Tab-Space through.

oney.5067:

if we were happy exploring the world so be it! if we wanted to make some money on any particular day we could solo farm or join a group in an elite dungeon.

The dungeons it took them 4 years to add? And still didn’t offer nearly as much income as solo-farm builds?

oney.5067:

speaking of level 20. yes we could get to max level in a day but… it took days after to explorer the world and cap and learn all the skills you needed to join dungeon groups or farm. it wasnt a grind because you chose what skills you wanted to learn or cap.

Like earning skill points to buy skills you mean?
And it could end up as a worse grind – random bosses meant you could end up clearing a huge area looking for a specific boss to cap a skill, only to find it never spawned and you had to start over.
On top of that, the original skill-capturing mechanic was so crushingly painful that often even when you did find a boss, you could end up missing out on the skill entirely, and have to go back into town and try again.

oney.5067:

how about the fact that every one in gw1 was happy and considerate of other people which was also demanded in guild chats. when a person needed help people wanted to help and show off their awsomness. their cool heros and builds and group making abilities their cool gear they spent hours farming for. people were proud of what they had.

No they weren’t. I can remember a lot of complaining, a huge amount of griefing, and plenty of scamming. I remember pugs being so awful I never played with anyone outside my guild.

oney.5067:

speaking of heroes! gw2 is a group based world with dynamic events and lore all around. why then would they make soo many dungeons and ignore the playable world? if they do this than all the level 80 areas would be dead! oh wait… they nerfed plinx and added FOTM so they already are.

Heroes it took them 3 years to add you mean? And until then we had to play with horribly awful henchmen, that utterly failed on certain missions.

oney.5067:

why are we being Forced into doing dungeons we dont wanna do just to make a scrap of gold which in a day could possibly pay to craft one single piece of exotic gear. on the other hand why offer cool skins if only the gold buyers can afford to buy them from tp.

imo this game is for the irl rich people since im an adult i have adult responsibilities and have enough sence to pay 70$ for a game and refrain from gem store.

You don’t need to do dungeons to get any exo-gear, or to make money. There’s plenty of easy and quick ways of doing it.
Yes, there are cool skins that take a lot of money, but you really don’t need to buy money; you could just be patient. You know, like Fissure of Woe armor in GW1.

I just seen a comment on how GW2 is play the way you like and it is far from that. There is no real building here not like in Gw1 where skills was purchased and you could take up a secondary to build on.. And in many areas you would have to gear the character to win with attributes and skills it would not normally use.. Go figure I still play GW1 on occasions and still say that a game you can really play it like you want to.. I am not knocking GW2 in the ground here but it did miss out on so many things that made GW1 a number one game.. Maybe that is some of the reason we are not seeing the huge groups of players anymore.. Gw2 is a good game but it will never be GW1 and I realized that after a weeks of play.

oney.5067:

why did you kill the dreams of all the gw1 fans by taking away the game we loved so much!?

Gotta disagree with ya here played GW1 for 7 years and i love GW2 . Just a few points to make about GW1

1 ) many builds were face roll or broken

2 ) heros destroyed the game

3 ) you cant really say any dungeon was all that hard if you knew what skills to take .

4 ) the community in GW2 isent any worse than in GW1 . You seem to be seeing what you want to on this front .